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When could Vettel have done 'the right thing'?


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#1 Atreiu

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 19:16

Take a look at this:
"there has been one occasion this season where Vettel already did the 'right thing' for the team – and that means the 'right thing' ultimately for Webber"
http://www.autosport...cle.php/id/3178


Was he refering to Spa?
LOL, just kidding. When and what could that have been? It doesn't seem like there are many alternatives, unless it didn't happen during a race.

Interlagos - nope
Korea - nope
Suzuka - nope
Singapore - nope
Monza - nope. Edit: there was his 'problem' when he let Webber through, but then he went on to pit very late and finish ahead of Webber anyhow. Did he help him but then decided to make his own luck with a strategic gamble? It makes sense given how late in the season it was and the real threat Ferrari and Alonso had already become.
Spa - nope
Hungary - did he back away from the SC that extra bit to get Webber a jump at the restart? It could have meant he over did it and ended up getting his drive through...
Hockenheim - nope
Silvetstone - definitely not
Valencia - nope
Canada - nope
Turkey - LOL, hell no
Monaco - could he have decided to not attack Webber who had a problem none of us has known abaout? Perhaps it did trigger his aggressiveness at Turkey as he decided to not help Webber again. But it also seems way too early for any sort of orders or team interference whatsoever.
Barcelona - nope
China - nope
Sepang - nope
Australia - nope
Bahrain - nope


So I see only three possibilities, but only two seem reasonable. What do you guys think, what could I have missed?
I hope you guys at the BB can figure this out.

Edited by Atreiu, 10 November 2010 - 19:25.


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#2 noikeee

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 19:20

Wasn't it at Monza when he had a "problem" that disappeared again a few laps after Webber had gone past him?

#3 Atreiu

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 19:21

I totally missed that.
I'll edit my post.

#4 KateLM

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 19:50

I was wondering that. My first thought was the Monza thing, but he says it dented Vettel's own championship challenge. But Vettel ended up finishing ahead at Monza, so that doesn't fit.

The only other thing I can think of is Hungary but the radio we heard at the time and on the race edit just doesn't seem to fit that. I don't know how they could have got a message out to Vettel so subliminally that he would understand what it meant and race control didn't - after all, it wasn't the type of situation that you would discuss beforehand in the briefings. And to think it was Vettel's own initiative to drop back is a stretch.

Of course, there is a chance that Noble is exaggerating whatever it is slightly for dramatic effect and/or its not a race situation thing per se - after all, he didn't write exactly that he helped Webber directly.

#5 trogggy

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 20:06

Hungary - letting Webber drive into the distance after the safety car, so he (MW) could build a gap and re-emerge in 2nd. Didn't quite work out though.
Maybe.


#6 goingthedistance

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 21:06

I was wondering that. My first thought was the Monza thing, but he says it dented Vettel's own championship challenge. But Vettel ended up finishing ahead at Monza, so that doesn't fit.

The only other thing I can think of is Hungary but the radio we heard at the time and on the race edit just doesn't seem to fit that. I don't know how they could have got a message out to Vettel so subliminally that he would understand what it meant and race control didn't - after all, it wasn't the type of situation that you would discuss beforehand in the briefings. And to think it was Vettel's own initiative to drop back is a stretch.

Of course, there is a chance that Noble is exaggerating whatever it is slightly for dramatic effect and/or its not a race situation thing per se - after all, he didn't write exactly that he helped Webber directly.


Yes I wonder if it was something not race specific, something to do with development direction perhaps? Chassis allocation/sharing?

Whatever I thought it was a fairly dubious thing for Noble to insert in there without fleshing it out. How many times has Webber "done the right thing by the team" as well, after all?

The British press appear to be turning on Webber because he did not flesh out why he raised concerns last weekend, they are painting him as a moaner. Perhaps they are right, but the reality is there's a lot more going on then we can see in these teams, and the media don't seem interested in digging into the detail (now there's a surprise!).

#7 engel

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 21:55

Hungary, easily

#8 Nitropower

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 22:07

Mmm.. I must admit when the SC came out in Brazil I was thinking... "hell he is not keeping the 10 car distance to the SC again..." he really looked far from the SC, I don't know if you need to have another competitor in front for the rule to be applied or he was that far from the SC.... but I'd promise he was very very far...

#9 slideways

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 22:12

Yeah I have a feeling it was Hungary. I think Seb was trying to help Mark and the team and shot himself in the foot.

BTW I thought the article was a bit poor from Noble. Suggesting that if Webber had sucked up to Vettel more, that he may have given him the Brazil win. :lol:

Edited by slideways, 10 November 2010 - 22:14.


#10 KateLM

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 22:23

Yeah I have a feeling it was Hungary. I think Seb was trying to help Mark and the team and shot himself in the foot.

BTW I thought the article was a bit poor from Noble. Suggesting that if Webber had sucked up to Vettel more, that he may have given him the Brazil win. :lol:

Yeah, I really somehow doubt that too! And I'm not saying I blame him either. But yes, not the best column Noble has ever written.

I just don't know about Hungary, would Vettel really choose to drop back like that on his own accord, without being asked? I guess there is a slight possibility that he decided to try and help get a 1-2 but didn't realise he was breaking the rules by doing so. But I really struggle see it, it was only 3 weeks after his "true faces" comments at Silverstone. I don't think either driver would have been willing to help the other out on their own accord at that point.

I am starting to lean towards it being either a qualifying run or off track thing which has been dressed up to sound quite dramatic, because Noble's wording is so vague.

#11 iotar

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 22:45

Hungary, easily


Easily it's nonsense.
If you are that certain describe how it happened. I mean with details: how for example Vettel figured it out by himself or if there was some message from his race engineer.
You understand of course that safety car situation is unpredictable (it's impossible to plan it in before the race) , tyre strategies are a gamble and all radio messages are recorded. Since it's that easy with some proof. Circumstances - like it happened and it "helped" Webber is not enough.

What "right thing" means is another matter. Another storm in the tea cup and based on virtually nothing thread.




#12 BennyJohnson

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 23:14

It was deffinetly not Hungary.

Radio tells you that.

Team to Mark "This a sprint for you when the safety car comes in Mark"
Sebastian was not informed

Sebastian to Team "I F***ed up the restart, I'm sorry"

Then after Mark pits,

Sebastian "How the **** is Mark in front now? How is that possible"

I think, whatever this 'sensitive issue' is, it's not from a worthy source.

Vettel, although I do agree that he has played the team game this year, has not done something to directly benefit Webber, the way you guys are thinking.

My best guess would be something to do with Turkey, or a comment Vettel made to the media.




#13 SK99

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 23:27

I think the most likely scenario is it's something like a qualy run that Noble has blown up as KateLM (I think?) suggested earlier on.

He's a journalist.

However, Vettel has maintained for quite a while now that he could have made stuff known but hasn't spoken of it.

The only thing I can think of for this dramaticy and it to be true is this:

There were rumours IIRC that Webber and his engineer withheld parts of set-up info in Monaco and Spain.

If he did, that would partly explain why he had the significant pace advantage in those 2 places, and is the only thing I can think of that could affect Vettel's title ambitions but helped Webber's.

Edited by SK99, 10 November 2010 - 23:28.


#14 engel

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 23:46

Easily it's nonsense.
If you are that certain describe how it happened. I mean with details: how for example Vettel figured it out by himself or if there was some message from his race engineer.
You understand of course that safety car situation is unpredictable (it's impossible to plan it in before the race) , tyre strategies are a gamble and all radio messages are recorded. Since it's that easy with some proof. Circumstances - like it happened and it "helped" Webber is not enough.

What "right thing" means is another matter. Another storm in the tea cup and based on virtually nothing thread.



Nothing to do with the SC, everything to do with backing Alonso up AFTER the SC and until he had to serve his penalty.

#15 iotar

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 00:09

Nothing to do with the SC, everything to do with backing Alonso up AFTER the SC and until he had to serve his penalty.


But it would only work because safety car happened, right? Webber was in that situation because of the safety car and Vettel could block the field only because of the safety car.

Not to mention situation under safety car - when Vettel didn't keep the required distance. Was it part of the team order, too? :D

We're talking about very complicated team order (any team order that doesn't use pits tops is complicated). Someone has to plan it, order it and actually "help" materializing it. There needs to be purpose outweighing the risks and costs.
In this case it would be even more interesting - it would be reverse team order - leading number 1 driver "helping" driver behind while compromising his own race. His rival.

Apart from that there are risks, compromises, matter of willingness to help and other factors.

This "help" thing is only easy on the internet. We're talking about major influence on result of the race. It sounds for example as if drivers are willing to help each other and have enough brain to think about their own races at the same time.

I blame it on Piquet/Briatore. Since Singapore there's no scenario ridiculous enough to not be taken seriously (only on internet board of course). No one in the real word even mentioned or thought about such scenario - and for a good reason. It's completely impossible under such circumstances.

There's hundreds of reasons why it couldn't have happened and why it didn't happened. It's easier to point it out when the whole mechanism is described step by step.

[Edited:]
To make it simple: for a start - when was a decision made, and how was it passed?

Edited by iotar, 11 November 2010 - 00:12.


#16 engel

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 00:39

We 're talking about Vettel driving 7 laps to a delta instead of flat out. The 7 laps between the race restart and the notification of the stewards' investigation. Which incidentally did happen. It's not complicated, you 're making it complicated.

Reverse team order? Nope ... Redbull tried to help Mark jump Alonso not Vettel, the penalty was the reason he jumped Vettel too.But even the 5 second gap Vettel gave Mark 2 laps after the restart was already 25% of the total gap Mark needed. Delta.

Anyways, take it up with Noble, I just said Hungary easily fits with what he described.

#17 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 00:54

There were rumours IIRC that Webber and his engineer withheld parts of set-up info in Monaco and Spain.


If he is faster, why didn't he set up his OWN CAR (Vettel's) properly.

Vettel should be HAPPY, CH is not saying " you must use MW setup" - this is the order that a number 2 driver would get!

So if he drives with Alonso, will SV be cross to have access to or be made to use, FA's understeer setup. SV will merrily be slow with this understeer setup which he doesn't like then !??

#18 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 00:57

I think the only "right thing" Vettel could have done is told Helmut Marko to back off. Vettel has taken a lot of flak this year and lost a lot of support, but most of it has been because of team decisions. Look at Turkey, where he barely had time to explain what happened before the team started blaming Webber for it. The likes of Marko have been actively sabotaging Webber's title bid in favour of Vettel, even when it has proven impractical to do so. But if Vettel had out a stop to it (in truth, he may not have even known about the policy), evenything would probably be going a whole lot better.

#19 Atreiu

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 01:18

BTW I thought the article was a bit poor from Noble. Suggesting that if Webber had sucked up to Vettel more, that he may have given him the Brazil win. :lol:


I don't think he meant sucking up and kissing ass, but being diplomatic and keeping some ideas to himself for the simple sake of not annoying the guy whose help you might need to become WDC. As if Vettel already didn't have enough reasons to not help Webber, like his own WDC bid.

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#20 BullHead

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 01:20

I still can't see what is being got at it here. I put it down to Noble's own imagination / ideas on what he's on about.

#21 DILLIGAF

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 02:08

Had to be Hungary. Tried to help Webber get a 2nd placing but forgot the SC rules.

Hence his memorable radio transmission later in the race: http://www.zazzle.co...949792049170430

#22 Dunder

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 02:36

We 're talking about Vettel driving 7 laps to a delta instead of flat out. The 7 laps between the race restart and the notification of the stewards' investigation. Which incidentally did happen. It's not complicated, you 're making it complicated.

Reverse team order? Nope ... Redbull tried to help Mark jump Alonso not Vettel, the penalty was the reason he jumped Vettel too.But even the 5 second gap Vettel gave Mark 2 laps after the restart was already 25% of the total gap Mark needed. Delta.

Anyways, take it up with Noble, I just said Hungary easily fits with what he described.


It's a nice theory but is not really supported by the facts.

Vettel did 15 laps between the safety car coming in and serving his drive through during which he consistently pulled away from Alonso and as such was not in any way holding him up. The safety car came in at the end of lap 17 and by the end of lap 18 Vettel was 1.5 seconds clear of Alonso, it was 2.3 seconds at the end of lap 19 and from then on just got bigger.

Although I think that the "gap to the SC" thing was a genuine mistake, it is actually more convincing.

Edited by Dunder, 11 November 2010 - 02:38.


#23 FerrariFanInTexas

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 03:05

Watching Hungary in my living room, when I saw the gigantic distance between Vettel and the SC and immediately thought that he was doing it to let Mark get the advantage. Mark needed a good 20 second lead to stay ahead of Alonso, and the big gap to the SC gave him a good 4-5 seconds of it. Don't know that a "team order" message from the pits was needed. It looked like a pretty obvious tactic to employ, except for the minimum distance to the safety car rule.

#24 engel

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 03:05

Webber pitted on lap 38 with a 20 second lead over Alonso. Half that lead (10 seconds) he got in the 4-5 laps immediately following the race restart (by lap 22). On those 4 laps Vettel was between 1 and 1.5 seconds/lap slower than Webber. 3 laps later, when the Fia informed RedBull Vettel was under investigation Vettel went 0.8 seconds/lap faster than Webber. That's delta driving. Sorry Dunder :)

#25 Dunder

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 03:08

Webber pitted on lap 38 with a 20 second lead over Alonso. Half that lead (10 seconds) he got in the 4-5 laps immediately following the race restart (by lap 22). On those 4 laps Vettel was between 1 and 1.5 seconds/lap slower than Webber. 3 laps later, when the Fia informed RedBull Vettel was under investigation Vettel went 0.8 seconds/lap faster than Webber. That's delta driving. Sorry Dunder :)


So what was the purpose of the "delta driving"?
As I mentioned Vettel only ever held Alonso up at the SC restart. Thereafter he consistently pulled away albeit at a considerably slower rate than Webber did.

It would have been entirely possible for Webber's tyres to drop off in terms of performance more quicky meaning that he would have been forced to pit earlier in which case it would have been much closer in terms of emerging in front of Alonso. I don't really see how Vettel has assisted Webber at all, aside from making a mess of the restart.

At the time, I thought that Vettel was simply managing his own pace to ensure that he had Webber covered, I don't see anything different now.

Edited by Dunder, 11 November 2010 - 03:21.


#26 sanjiro

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 03:58

Webber pitted on lap 38 with a 20 second lead over Alonso. Half that lead (10 seconds) he got in the 4-5 laps immediately following the race restart (by lap 22). On those 4 laps Vettel was between 1 and 1.5 seconds/lap slower than Webber. 3 laps later, when the Fia informed RedBull Vettel was under investigation Vettel went 0.8 seconds/lap faster than Webber. That's delta driving. Sorry Dunder :)



This is not an accurate representation of what happened

After he was informed he was under investigation he did pick up his pace.
However the net effect of this was that he still lost ground to MW
SV did some laps faster than MW during this period
and MW did some laps faster than SV

from lap 22 to lap 31 the gap from SV to MW went from 7 to 8s
it fluctuated significantly in that time from 1-2s either way

Edited by sanjiro, 11 November 2010 - 03:59.


#27 goingthedistance

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 07:42

We 're talking about Vettel driving 7 laps to a delta instead of flat out. The 7 laps between the race restart and the notification of the stewards' investigation. Which incidentally did happen. It's not complicated, you 're making it complicated.

Reverse team order? Nope ... Redbull tried to help Mark jump Alonso not Vettel, the penalty was the reason he jumped Vettel too.But even the 5 second gap Vettel gave Mark 2 laps after the restart was already 25% of the total gap Mark needed. Delta.

Anyways, take it up with Noble, I just said Hungary easily fits with what he described.


That doesn't make sense. Vettel pulled away from Alonso after the restart, I recall there being something like a 4-5 second gap very quickly. He was not holding up Alonso. I can believe he was not going flat out as he was slower than Webber - but he was on different tyres and may have been managing his fuel, something Webber had already done when he'd been tucked behind Alonso for the first part of the race. The key point is that Alonso and Vettel were not close enough for Vettel to be interfering in the fight between Alonso and Webber, beyond say the first lap of the restart.

If Hungary was the issue alluded to, it will have been about the restart itself.

#28 goingthedistance

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 07:46

This is not an accurate representation of what happened

After he was informed he was under investigation he did pick up his pace.
However the net effect of this was that he still lost ground to MW
SV did some laps faster than MW during this period
and MW did some laps faster than SV

from lap 22 to lap 31 the gap from SV to MW went from 7 to 8s
it fluctuated significantly in that time from 1-2s either way


Yes I recall being very surprised that Vettel had failed to make ground on Webber in that period. It showed that on pure pace, when they were both gunning it for different reasons, Webber was quicker. As we all now know, this suprised Vettel as well! "How the f**k is Mark in front of me" a bit later....


#29 sanjiro

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 07:48

That doesn't make sense. Vettel pulled away from Alonso after the restart, I recall there being something like a 4-5 second gap very quickly. He was not holding up Alonso. I can believe he was not going flat out as he was slower than Webber - but he was on different tyres and may have been managing his fuel, something Webber had already done when he'd been tucked behind Alonso for the first part of the race. The key point is that Alonso and Vettel were not close enough for Vettel to be interfering in the fight between Alonso and Webber, beyond say the first lap of the restart.

If Hungary was the issue alluded to, it will have been about the restart itself.



SV pulled away from FA at ~0.5s per lap immediately after the restart
This continued (with a few hiccups) until lap 30

If this was an attempt by SV to hold up FA then it was executed with as much skill as he used to pass MW in Turkey

Edited by sanjiro, 11 November 2010 - 07:51.


#30 goingthedistance

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 08:35

SV pulled away from FA at ~0.5s per lap immediately after the restart
This continued (with a few hiccups) until lap 30

If this was an attempt by SV to hold up FA then it was executed with as much skill as he used to pass MW in Turkey


Yes, that sounds right. I think he was probably not at full power at that point the race, but only because we know these guys have to manage their fuel over a full race distance, and unlike Webber (who was stuck behind Alonso) Vettel was obviously on "full power" mode for the first 15 laps of the race.

#31 JosTheBoss

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 08:36

There were rumours IIRC that Webber and his engineer withheld parts of set-up info in Monaco and Spain.

If he did, that would partly explain why he had the significant pace advantage in those 2 places
, and is the only thing I can think of that could affect Vettel's title ambitions but helped Webber's.


If true, it would prove a few things about someone's specific ability. And someone else's lack of it.

#32 ensign14

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 10:42

Wasn't Vettel's problem at Monaco that he had a cracked chassis that hadn't been detected?

#33 sanjiro

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 10:55

Wasn't Vettel's problem at Monaco that he had a cracked chassis that hadn't been detected?


A fault was found in the chassis.
However the RBR team (not Marko) reported that the fault was so minor as to not have been an issue.

It is a little irrelevant as we have seen both MW and SV this year find themselves in a chassis they were not comfortable in
MW was having balance issues in the winter testing chassis #0.5 for GP1 and 2 and then difficulty in the #6 chassis (used first in Singapore)
SV had difficulty in Chassis #3, which he dropped for Turkey and was then later used by MW after he smashed up #2

The current F1 cars are very delicate to set up and so we see the swings and shifts in driver performance as the year goes on

#34 gaston_foix

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 10:56

In Brazil, to let Webber pass :D. Now Redbull may regret...