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RBR title clean up with JButton?


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#1 tze

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 21:03

I was just perusing the article on the atlas front page talking about the following race, and of particular interest was a point made many times before.. That is, RBR has had the quickest car this season and having secured 14 poles only had less than half the wins through a combination of driver and mechanical brain meltdowns...

I then think back to last season with BrawnGP, and can't help but wonder whether RBR would have had the title race cleaned up much earlier if they had someone like JB on their roster, who, putting aside any sentiments of how fast/slow he is, is one of the most consistent drivers today..

Anyway, late PM thoughts after being a tad bored at work :wave:

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#2 Mika Mika

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 21:17

I was just perusing the article on the atlas front page talking about the following race, and of particular interest was a point made many times before.. That is, RBR has had the quickest car this season and having secured 14 poles only had less than half the wins through a combination of driver and mechanical brain meltdowns...

I then think back to last season with BrawnGP, and can't help but wonder whether RBR would have had the title race cleaned up much earlier if they had someone like JB on their roster, who, putting aside any sentiments of how fast/slow he is, is one of the most consistent drivers today..

Anyway, late PM thoughts after being a tad bored at work :wave:


They have had some unreliability - however I get the feeling than an Alonso/Hamilton level driver would have cleaned it up long ago...

#3 Bonaventura

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 21:18

I was just perusing the article on the atlas front page talking about the following race, and of particular interest was a point made many times before.. That is, RBR has had the quickest car this season and having secured 14 poles only had less than half the wins through a combination of driver and mechanical brain meltdowns...

I then think back to last season with BrawnGP, and can't help but wonder whether RBR would have had the title race cleaned up much earlier if they had someone like JB on their roster, who, putting aside any sentiments of how fast/slow he is, is one of the most consistent drivers today..

Anyway, late PM thoughts after being a tad bored at work :wave:

Hamilton, Alonso?

Who would have been the other team mate, if Button was the one RBR driver?
Vettel ?


#4 engel

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 21:48

If RBR had 1 driver leading instead of 2 drivers taking points of each other then sure, they would have wrapped the championship up much sooner even if they stuffed up a bunch. It's not about a specific driver, it more about not having 2 drivers cannibalize each other.

#5 Alfisti

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 21:51

No because he would have been out qualified too often by Fernando and hamilton in slower cars.

#6 Alfisti

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 21:52

They have had some unreliability - however I get the feeling than an Alonso/Hamilton level driver would have cleaned it up long ago...


The same two drivers who this season have made as many if not more errors than Webber and about the same as Vettel you mean? Fernando's first half and Hamilton's second half of the year have not been that great.

#7 Dunder

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 21:55

The Brawn was very strong in the early part of the season and Button was able to get the better of Barrichello.
If those early wins had been split between the two Brawn drivers, the season could have worked out quite differently.
McLaren and Ferrari both had weak cars during that period too.

So, no I don't think so.
Button would, I believe, be in a similar position to the one Webber and Vettel find themselves in.

#8 ForzaGTR

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 21:57

The same two drivers who this season have made as many if not more errors than Webber and about the same as Vettel you mean? Fernando's first half and Hamilton's second half of the year have not been that great.


Hamilton has made one significant error.

Singapore was a racing incident.

The rest have been down to a car that lacks grip.

Hamilton or Alonso would be WDC in the current RB and it would have been sewn up 3 races ago.

#9 Alfisti

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 22:02

Hamilton has made one significant error.

Singapore was a racing incident.

The rest have been down to a car that lacks grip.

Hamilton or Alonso would be WDC in the current RB and it would have been sewn up 3 races ago.


With their current team mates, sure. With vettel or Webber alongside and allowed to race, nope. Alonso has had, overall, a poor year.

#10 Massa_f1

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 22:04

Button would of probbs won the title in the RBR car he never makes mistakes hasent even made any this year apart from wrong setup choices.

#11 nada12

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 22:08

Redbull's advantage wasn't nearly as big as Brawn's was for the first half of the season, they also lacked the reliability. In short, no.

#12 KateLM

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 22:25

I was just perusing the article on the atlas front page talking about the following race, and of particular interest was a point made many times before.. That is, RBR has had the quickest car this season and having secured 14 poles only had less than half the wins through a combination of driver and mechanical brain meltdowns...

I then think back to last season with BrawnGP, and can't help but wonder whether RBR would have had the title race cleaned up much earlier if they had someone like JB on their roster, who, putting aside any sentiments of how fast/slow he is, is one of the most consistent drivers today..

Anyway, late PM thoughts after being a tad bored at work :wave:

Vettel vs. Webber has been much closer than Button vs. Barrichello. Even when Barrichello got the upper hand in qualifying, Jenson outraced him quite often.

#13 ForzaGTR

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 22:28

With their current team mates, sure. With vettel or Webber alongside and allowed to race, nope. Alonso has had, overall, a poor year.


A poor year? He leads the WDC in an inferior car to the RB!

Hamilton has beaten the current WDC who is definitely better than Webber.

#14 Eff One 2002

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 00:02

Hamilton has beaten the current WDC who is definitely better than Webber.


And you are basing that on what? Have YOU been consulting the fairies at the bottom of your garden as well? With the speed and natural talent Webber has shown this year, and how close he has been to a driver of Vettel's undoubted ability, Webber has shown that the only drivers out there better than him are Alonso, Hamilton and maybe Kubica/Vettel.


#15 pingu666

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 00:16

wonder if jb would still have car/tyre issues with the rb6 :p

actully that car would suit him really well, as its very stable, and nailed to the ground

#16 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 00:21

I was just perusing the article on the atlas front page talking about the following race, and of particular interest was a point made many times before.. That is, RBR has had the quickest car this season and having secured 14 poles only had less than half the wins through a combination of driver and mechanical brain meltdowns...

I then think back to last season with BrawnGP, and can't help but wonder whether RBR would have had the title race cleaned up much earlier if they had someone like JB on their roster, who, putting aside any sentiments of how fast/slow he is, is one of the most consistent drivers today..

Anyway, late PM thoughts after being a tad bored at work :wave:

Button did actually say he enquired about driving for Red Bull this season, but they were already full.

#17 jjcale

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 00:29

Without a doubt!

JB may be the least inspiring of the top drivers on the grid right now but he's much better than SV or MW. Whatever quali problems he may have are more than compensated for by his race pace and his abilty to implement a strategy... has everyone forgotten 09 already?

#18 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 00:39

has everyone forgotten 09 already?

No. People just choose to remember that he didn't win anything after Turkey. They seem to think he just decided to cruise to the title after that. But he obviously didn't - by the end of the season, both the Red Bull and the McLaren were better than the Brawn. Brawn ran out of money to develop the car, yet everyone seemed to think that Button could remain competitive.

#19 engel

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 00:44

Button won 09 cause he was on top of the situation when he had a significant car advantage. By the time Rubens solved his break issues cat was already out of the bag, RB and McL were already as fast as the brawn and they just got faster while Brawn remained stationary.

It's by no means a dig at Button but ... the stars just aligned for him. He made the most of it, no doubt but at the crucial point in the season (which incidentally was the start of the season) he didn't have a teammate with 1 tenth of his quali times cannibalizing his results. That's all. IMO Webber, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Button etc ON THEIR OWN would have sealed up 2010 by now. But combined with another guy from the list as teammates we 'd still be roughly where we are now.

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#20 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 00:45

It's true that if Jenson was team up at RB with either SV or MW he would probably had made less mistakes than them but probably would have been behind either in 1 lap pace. That said, remove 50% of either SV or MW's mistakes and either of them would be champion now. It's not inconceivable to think Jenson may have wrapped up the title even if he wasn't the dominant driver.

#21 zeph

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 00:54

They have had some unreliability - however I get the feeling than an Alonso/Hamilton level driver would have cleaned it up long ago...


Redbull's advantage wasn't nearly as big as Brawn's was for the first half of the season, they also lacked the reliability. In short, no.


I think these reliability issues have been blown out of proportion. Vettel has had reliability problems, Webber has finished with points in 16 out 18 races. The two DNF's were driver errors. That is pretty damn consistent for an unreliable car.

#22 Atreiu

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 01:19

I'm not so sure about Button, but Alonso, Hamilton and Kimi (I had to bring him in) would have mopped the floor with an RB6 regardless of who was in the other car.
:)

#23 Zeroninety

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 04:02

The rest of the frield in an RB6:

Would have won the title 4 or 5 races ago: Alonso, Hamilton

Would have wrapped up the title in Brazil: Kubica, Button, Schumacher

Would be in roughly the same situation and SV and MW: Rosberg, Heidfeld, Kobayashi

Would have won a couple races, but would have been eliminated late in the season: Massa, Barrichello, Hulkenberg, Sutil, Buemi, Alguersuari, Trulli, Kovalainen, Glock

Would have struggled for podiums: Petrov, Liuzzi, Di Grassi, Senna, Klein, Yamamoto

#24 Cenotaph

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 04:47

There are two essential differences between RBR this year and Brawn/Button last year: reliability and a teammate actually doing his job. Vettel, at least, could actually be champion right now without reliability problems and the turkey incident, which would never happen with a teammate like Kovalainen or Rubens, for instance. Just think of how many points he lost already. The title would be over at Korea or maybe Japan. Webber didnt really had many reliability problems so his situation is less clear, but he would probably still be champion without Vettel as teammate.

What is happening this year at RBR could happen with any driver in the car, even if it seems to be popular in this forum to assume Alonso or Hamilton would be champions by now in the RB6, the truth is both these drivers did mistakes this year and both lost the title through their own fault in 2007 and Hamilton almost did it again in 2008. Many ppl assumed Lewis would beat Button easily but he is still within reach, and why? Because Button actually fought Lewis, instead of playing the role of a 2nd driver.

#25 cheapracer

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 05:06

Vettel, at least, could actually be champion right now without reliability problems and the turkey incident,


I'll post it again, maybe Vettle is the cause of the "reliability problems", F1 has a solid history of very quick drivers being associated with unreliability.

I think calling Webber a "turkey" is going to far!! :lol:

Edited by cheapracer, 11 November 2010 - 05:08.


#26 Cenotaph

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 06:27

Nah, i believe there is probably a history with very quick drivers associated with unreliability in very specific cars. There is also a history of newey and unreliable cars, don't forget. Infact, i never understood that reasoning that some drivers are too quick for their cars. It just seems like an attempt to give other drivers a skill that doesnt exist to justify their luck as something that is earned on merit.

While F1 cars are sophisticated machines, they are meant to be driven as fast as possible, like any other race car. if a driver is the fastest out there he is doing his job like he is supposed to, if the car can't take it, then its definitely the car that's unreliable. When a driver consistently does something technically wrong that could harm the cars' components, the crew can notice that immediately and inform the driver to correct that behaviour or at least, if already too late, make sure it doesn't happen again.

#27 lbennie

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 06:35

i thought this was one of those joke threads that tries to make fun of threads that pop up all the time when i first saw the title.
but it's serious!

lol

#28 DanardiF1

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 08:13

No. People just choose to remember that he didn't win anything after Turkey. They seem to think he just decided to cruise to the title after that. But he obviously didn't - by the end of the season, both the Red Bull and the McLaren were better than the Brawn. Brawn ran out of money to develop the car, yet everyone seemed to think that Button could remain competitive.


And people also seem to think that Barrichello won every race after Turkey... and was somehow not involved in the first part of the season. Winning two races was not the same as winning 6 out of 7. And also to suggest that Rubens was much better than Jenson over the 2nd half of the season was not strictly true either, as they were 5-5 in terms of 'outracing' each other..

Anyway... I think any combo of Button/Hamilton/Alonso in that RB6 would've sewn the title up long ago... paint it red or silver and those teams would've run it much better too... Red Bull have money and the best design team in motorsport, but they are a midfield team operationally...