116 replies to this topic

[JackTorrance]

Im a very angry Ferrari fan, thats had more than enough of the the umpteenth pitwall disaster brainfade by Ferrari.

Today was an easy victory for the WDC thrown away by amateur hour strategy call. This would never have happened under Brawn and Todt. Todays mistake adds to the clumsy moves at Hockenheim, and the apathic stance in Melbourne and Malaysia.

Domenicali is a nice guy but he does not have the vision a team manager must have or such a history rich team like Ferrari needs.

What do you think? Should Ferrari end Domenicali's teamboss role?

Edited by JackTorrance, 15 November 2010 - 06:39.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Sack Alonso too. He took himself out of contention in Monaco with his practice crash. No, wait. Ferrari strategy helped him there. So Spa, yeah Spa. Sack him because he crashed at Spa.

[primer]

Sacking Domenicali is the easy part. But who will they replace him with? Is the replacement going to be any better?

[engel]

Todt never did strategy
and
have you seen the strategy calls Schumacher's been getting under Brawn at Mercedes?


Brawn/Schumacher/Ferrari had an advantage, they understood gaps and covers way before everybody else. That's not there anymore, everybody has a strategy computer and everybody gets caught out the same way

PS Domenicali doesn't do strategy.

Edited by engel, 14 November 2010 - 20:14.

[RedBaron]

No, how absurd.

Stefano did nothing wrong, he doesn't make the strategic calls, should he be sacked for Korea when the front right wheel nut flew off, was he manning the wheel gun and that wheel at the time? No. How were Ferrari to know the tyres would come back on after a few laps... Red Bull certainly didn't know regarding Webber. Webber was at that point everyone's main concern so covering him made sense. You can't predict anything in Formula 1... should they sack Alonso because he can't pass a Renault driven by a pay driver...? Ok... I'm stirring the pot saying that but my point is, the question you pose is silly.

Edited by RedBaron, 14 November 2010 - 20:14.

[pinkypants]

Im a very angry Ferrari fan, thats had more than enough of the the umpteenth pitwall disaster brainfade by Ferrari.

Today was an easy victory for the WDC thrown away by amateur hour strategy call. This would never have happened under Brawn and Todt. Todays mistake adds to the clumsy moves at Hockenheim, and the apathic stance in Melbourne and Malaysia.

Domenicali is a nice guy but he does not have the vision a team manager must have or such a history rich team like Ferrari needs.

What do you think? Should Ferrari end Domenicali's teamboss role?

No, McLaren and RedBull have all had strategy brain fades this year.

Anyway, Alonso always had the opportunity to choose his strategy as he saw fit. We cannot claim that drivers are master strategists at certain races and then blame the team when a strategy goes wrong.

It is the team, including Domenicali, that meant Alonso was in a Championship winning position. You win and lose as a team. So as frustrating as it surely is at this point in time, Ferrari should celebrate how far they have come this season and focus their efforts in 2011 with extra motivation.

[topical]

Domenicalli will not be sacked. Di Montezemolo just released a statement with very positive comments about him. He's also a nice guy, good for PR. They just need to bring in some better tacticians, one or two people is enough. Probably there are some candidates on this forum who feel they could do the job...

[velgajski1]

McLaren and RBR had quite a few strategy blunders this season, it was Ferrari's turn in last race

[JdB]

Im a very angry Ferrari fan, thats had more than enough of the the umpteenth pitwall disaster brainfade by Ferrari.

Today was an easy victory for the WDC thrown away by amateur hour strategy call. This would never have happened under Brawn and Todt. Todays mistake adds to the clumsy moves at Hockenheim, and the apathic stance in Melbourne and Malaysia.

Domenicali is a nice guy but he does not have the vision a team manager must have or such a history rich team like Ferrari needs.

What do you think? Should Ferrari end Domenicali's teamboss role?

I'm not sure you should be opening topics like this so close after this race. I can understand the disappointment, as i feel the same, but it's not going to help being angry like this.
Ferrari made a bad pitstop call, which at the time didn't seem that strange. The problem was that Alonso made a bad start, and the soft tyres held out much longer then expected.
If anyone could have predicted the way it turned out, then they should be the new Ferrari Team Boss, but i'm sure Domenicali wanted Alonso to win the championship even more then you did. Unfortunately, it was not meant to be.
Ferrari had a great season, and managed to stay in the title fight until the last race, even though Red Bull had a much faster car, and even McLaren was faster some times.
Next year we'll try again.
Btw, even with Brawn, Todt and Schumacher, bad strategies happened. You can not win them all...

gr.Jeroen

[OO7]

Sack Alonso too. He took himself out of contention in Monaco with his practice crash. No, wait. Ferrari strategy helped him there. So Spa, yeah Spa. Sack him because he crashed at Spa.

[Tsarwash]

How can you say that it was an easy victory for the WDC when Alonso was in the third fastest car ? Both the Red bulls' and both McLarens were faster then him today. Alonso could be at fault for not being able to overtake slower cars. Noone else. You are reminding me of some of the newcastle united fans who would call for Keagans head, every time they drew or lost.

I'm just happy that the best team won.

[JackTorrance]

'\

No, how absurd.

Stefano did nothing wrong, he doesn't make the strategic calls, should he be sacked for Korea when the front right wheel nut flew off, was he manning the wheel gun and that wheel at the time? No. How were Ferrari to know the tyres would come back on after a few laps... Red Bull certainly didn't know regarding Webber. Webber was at that point everyone's main concern so covering him made sense. You can't predict anything in Formula 1... should they sack Alonso because he can't pass a Renault driven by a pay driver...? Ok... I'm stirring the pot saying that but my point is, the question you pose is silly.

I respect yr opinion but:

- It took him nearly three years to adress the problem of drivers unable getting the best out of the tyres over one lap. And even with an extra week of testing last year, and putting in 6 montsh of extra design time in thsi years car, it still lacks in tha area. Just look at how Massa struggled.

- There is no passion or outrage when things go bad. This is Ferrari and I want to see a passionate teamboss who shows more emotion during good and bad times.

- It took 2 years of Baldiseri fiddling with tactics untill he was positioned elsewhere in the team.

- The whole Kimi saga went on wayyyyy too long. Alonso showed this year what a true great driver can do.

Im sorry but for me its over. He must go. Enough is enough.

[Callisto]

no

Edited by Callisto, 14 November 2010 - 20:22.

[glorius&victorius]

PS Domenicali doesn't do strategy.

indeed.. he just sits there on the pitwall and asks questions like:

"are you sure? "
--yes--

"is there any reason we should not do this?"
--err no--

and then he adds:

"well if you think we should do this then we should do this.... but wait... what does fernando say?"
-- Fernando says he cannot think and he trust us --

"well then lets do this!!! ... and tell fernando that with his talent -that is soo big- he can do anything!"

Edited by glorius&victorius, 14 November 2010 - 20:24.

[halifaxf1fan]

No, how absurd.

Stefano did nothing wrong, he doesn't make the strategic calls, should he be sacked for Korea when the front right wheel nut flew off, was he manning the wheel gun and that wheel at the time? No. How were Ferrari to know the tyres would come back on after a few laps... Red Bull certainly didn't know regarding Webber. Webber was at that point everyone's main concern so covering him made sense. You can't predict anything in Formula 1... should they sack Alonso because he can't pass a Renault driven by a pay driver...? Ok... I'm stirring the pot saying that but my point is, the question you pose is silly.

But what did he do right? A guy in his position needs to be ahead of the game not reacting. Red Bull was much better especially if you consider that Webber's pit stop may have been just a dummy to lure Alonso.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 14 November 2010 - 20:51.

[mcguin]

It was a difficult decision to made, they had to cover two cars... the thing is they made it too soon; they had some laps with Webber on traffic to see if he could overtake slower cars easily or not, and how soft tires performed, as Alonso times weren't bad.

[gaston_foix]

It was a difficult decision to made, they had to cover two cars... the thing is they made it too soon; they had some laps with Webber on traffic to see if he could overtake slower cars easily or not, and how soft tires performed, as Alonso times weren't bad.

Only 1 car. Rosberg on P4. Simple... Where is Napoleon when you need him?

Edited by gaston_foix, 14 November 2010 - 20:28.

[mcguin]

No, McLaren and RedBull have all had strategy brain fades this year.

Anyway, Alonso always had the opportunity to choose his strategy as he saw fit. We cannot claim that drivers are master strategists at certain races and then blame the team when a strategy goes wrong.

It is the team, including Domenicali, that meant Alonso was in a Championship winning position. You win and lose as a team. So as frustrating as it surely is at this point in time, Ferrari should celebrate how far they have come this season and focus their efforts in 2011 with extra motivation.

Everytime there's strategy error people bring how the driver is also to blame, do they carry computers analysing race situations in the cars now?

[JustinCider]

This thread is just a piss poor attempt to shift blame from Alonso. Why make him the fall guy when Alonso simply wasn't fast enough today ? Without Domenciali's oversight in developing the F10, Alonso wouldn't have even been in the position to challenge for the WDC this afternoon.

[mcguin]

Only 1 car. Rosberg on P4. Simple... Where is Napoleon when you need him?

Well i meant Webber and Vettel, if Alonso hadn't pit Rosberg would not had been a problem, so the decision was to cover either Webber or Vettel. Some more laps would have clarified Webber had no chances at all.

[gaston_foix]

Well i meant Webber and Vettel, if Alonso hadn't pit Rosberg would not had been a problem, so the decision was to cover either Webber or Vettel. Some more laps would have clarified Webber had no chances at all.

AND again it was P4 what they need it and Rosberg was the truth P4.

[JackTorrance]

Afterwards Domenicali owned up to the error that Ferrari had made, but said there was little point highlighting the decision-making process of who had made the wrong call.

"It was a mistake," explained Domenicali. "Afterwards it is pretty clear it was a mistake, but at this moment I want to keep a clear vision - it is not good to say who took the decision or why it was taken. It was a team decision, and in the good and the bad moments the team has to stay together.

"The reason why we felt that [they needed to stop], was that there was tyre degradation that we had on the Friday and then we were basically thinking that to overtake the backmarkers, the ones in the middle, would have been much easier. That is the fact and the mistake of the strategy of today."

Funny how he didnt say we should stay together when they sacked Kimi. And why would you want to keep a bad strategy call team together? Heads oughta be banged!! It was a major, major clusterf***

[glorius&victorius]

I remember Martin Withmarsh in his first weeks at the helm... and everything going wrong... and there he was offering his resignation in public.. saying.. if people think I should go then I will....

I am just thinking now of all those people back at Maranello... making extra long hours... giving up weekly evenings and Sunday afternoon time with their family to give it their all for Ferrari and because Stefano rallied all the troops to get behind this last effort... and then this blunder at the pitwall...

I hope Stefano is honest with them and lays his position on the table as well.. and asks whether are they still with him

(I am sure in the end they will support him... but it would be classy and good for morale if he did it this way)

[EthanM]

Schumacher made even the craziest strategies ( 4 stops anybody?) work. Alonso couldn't make it work. At the end of the day it's as simple as.

And yeah OP brought this on himself by comparing this Ferrari era to the Todt era.

[JustinCider]

Afterwards Domenicali owned up to the error that Ferrari had made, but said there was little point highlighting the decision-making process of who had made the wrong call.

"It was a mistake," explained Domenicali. "Afterwards it is pretty clear it was a mistake, but at this moment I want to keep a clear vision - it is not good to say who took the decision or why it was taken. It was a team decision, and in the good and the bad moments the team has to stay together.

"The reason why we felt that [they needed to stop], was that there was tyre degradation that we had on the Friday and then we were basically thinking that to overtake the backmarkers, the ones in the middle, would have been much easier. That is the fact and the mistake of the strategy of today."

Funny how he didnt say we should stay together when they sacked Kimi. And why would you want to keep a bad strategy call team together? Heads oughta be banged!! It was a major, major clusterf***

Oh, get over the fact that Alonso didn't win the WDC, stop trying to apportion blame onto an easy target and move onto next season.

As i repeat again, everyone is blessed with the gift of hindsight. If every team principal had such insight then the WCC and WDC tables would look completely different.

[sosidge]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

Ferrari had to cover Webber, because finishing behind Webber would have cost them the title.

Unfortunately, in covering him, they ended up in traffic. And Alonso could not make the passes he needed to.

Staying out could easily have cost them as much if not more than stopping early if you take into account tyre wear.

So, they lost the world title. But it wasn't the wrong decision at the time, just a decision that didn't work out for them.

SD is doing just fine.

[VicR]

It's not Stefano's, Dyer's, Costa's etc fault that Luca di Montezemolo is too old and too senile to continue to do what is best for Ferrari. They are just employees.

[Szoelloe]

i voted yes. yesyesyesyesyes.

[halifaxf1fan]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

Ferrari had to cover Webber, because finishing behind Webber would have cost them the title.

Unfortunately, in covering him, they ended up in traffic. And Alonso could not make the passes he needed to.

Staying out could easily have cost them as much if not more than stopping early if you take into account tyre wear.

So, they lost the world title. But it wasn't the wrong decision at the time, just a decision that didn't work out for them.

SD is doing just fine.

SD has admitted that the call was a mistake.

[FSLIV]

But what did he do right? A guy in his position needs to be ahead of the game not reacting. Red Bull was much better especially if you consider that Webber's pit stop may have been just a dummy to lure Alonso.

LMAO I was just talking with my cousin and I told him RB pitted Weber to ensure That he would be out of contention. I didnt think of your point. RB is brilliant !! lol lol (Humor me)

[salamin]

Im a very angry Ferrari fan, thats had more than enough of the the umpteenth pitwall disaster brainfade by Ferrari.

Today was an easy victory for the WDC thrown away by amateur hour strategy call. This would never have happened under Brawn and Todt. Todays mistake adds to the clumsy moves at Hockenheim, and the apathic stance in Melbourne and Malaysia.

Domenicali is a nice guy but he does not have the vision a team manager must have or such a history rich team like Ferrari needs.

What do you think? Should Ferrari end Domenicali's teamboss role?

even if they sack him, it wont give failonso the tittle

[JackTorrance]

It's not Stefano's, Dyer's, Costa's etc fault that Luca di Montezemolo is too old and too senile to continue to do what is best for Ferrari. They are just employees.

Yeah, what does Luca know eh. He only turned Ferrari into the most succesfull F1 team ever, with 6 straight WCC wins and 5 straight championships 99 -04. The loser.

[JustinCider]

even if they sack him, it wont give failonso the tittle

But it will, in some people's minds absolve Alonso of all blame, which is what this (and other) threads are about.

[aditya-now]

This thread is just a piss poor attempt to shift blame from Alonso. Why make him the fall guy when Alonso simply wasn't fast enough today ? Without Domenciali's oversight in developing the F10, Alonso wouldn't have even been in the position to challenge for the WDC this afternoon.

Was Massa fast enough today?

[mcguin]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

Ferrari had to cover Webber, because finishing behind Webber would have cost them the title.

No they hadn't, Alonso could finish behind Webber and be WDC; they had to cover Vettel, just to stay at fourth. Mimic front runners strategy was the right thing to do. I agree that with hindsight is easy to make decisions, but i'm pretty sure more people thought the pit was rushed, being Webber released on traffic.

[AlanWake]

It's not Stefano's, Dyer's, Costa's etc fault that Luca di Montezemolo is too old and too senile to continue to do what is best for Ferrari. They are just employees.

And who should replace Luca DiM in your opinion?

You seem forget that Ferrari has won 6 WDCs and 8 WCCs in the last 12 years with Luca DiM there...

[EthanM]

Yeah, what does Luca know eh. He only turned Ferrari into the most succesfull F1 team ever, with 6 straight WCC wins and 5 straight championships 99 -04. The loser.

Todt did that. And Ross. And Michael. And Rory. All Luca did was destroy the successful team Ferrari had built (and that had built Ferrari) because he wasn't getting enough praise in the press.

[sosidge]

No they hadn't, Alonso could finish behind Webber and be WDC; they had to cover Vettel, just to stay at fourth. Mimic front runners strategy was the right thing to do. I agree that with hindsight is easy to make decisions, but i'm pretty sure more people thought the pit was rushed, being Webber released on traffic.

There were two McLarens between Alonso/Webber and Vettel. If Webber was ahead of Alonso through pit strategy, he couldn't have hoped for better than fifth.

[sosidge]

SD has admitted that the call was a mistake.

Has he admitted that at the time the call was made he knew it was a mistake? No. At the time it was made they believed it was the right call.

As I said, HINDSIGHT is a wonderful thing.

[JustinCider]

And who should replace Luca DiM in your opinion?

You seem forget that Ferrari has won 6 WDCs and 8 WCCs in the last 12 years with Luca DiM there...

Exactly, Alan. I'm no Ferrari fan by a long, long way but what the team have acheived in recent history is incredible. I just think there are quite a few embittered fans expressing a knee jerk reaction to Alonso not winning the WDC and are looking for a scapegoat to excuse the fact that their idol didn't win the title he confidently predicted post Silverstone was his.

[VicR]

And who should replace Luca DiM in your opinion?

You seem forget that Ferrari has won 6 WDCs and 8 WCCs in the last 12 years with Luca DiM there...

Luca has contributed more than anybody can say to Ferrari over the years. But he's too old and lately his decisions are hurting the marque. I know. Alonso and everything that he brought along was a mistake.

Time to hand over the keys to young Mr. FIAT.

[mcguin]

There were two McLarens between Alonso/Webber and Vettel. If Webber was ahead of Alonso through pit strategy, he couldn't have hoped for better than fifth.

For that to happen, he had to overtake at least two drivers: Rosberg and Petrov (assuming nobody knew at the time that the softs last that long in good condition) who had already pitted. They had some laps to analyse Webbers pace under traffic.

Edited by mcguin, 14 November 2010 - 21:11.

[ImmortaL]

I'm getting tired of people keep on saying hindsight is wonderful and BS like that. I've given my opinions on this with facts that says the contrary in other threads. Ferrari made a huge strategic error, simple as. And now they are eating it. We as fans of Ferrari need to stay behind the team of course. But we as fans should also want better. I don't care whose head rolls or whether it even happens. But I hope Ferrari revamp their strategy dept. They've been dodgy for a long time now since Brawn left the team and they need to have someone or a team that can make good calls most of the time under pressure and adverse situations. cause at present, bad calls far outweigh the good calls and bad calls are costing us a lot more than it should...

[tohru222]

I don't think it was Domenicali's call today, rather it was Alonso's race engineer.

[EthanM]

I don't think it was Domenicali's call today, rather it was Alonso's race engineer.

Neither, real time strategy is handled in Maranello and passed on to the Pitwall

[Birelman]

Wy would they sack the man who was one of the guys who advocated the most against Kimi Raikkonen in favor of Alonso? If it weren't for him, maybe Alonso would have never had the chance to choke today in the Ferrari.

[JackTorrance]

Todt did that. And Ross. And Michael. And Rory. All Luca did was destroy the successful team Ferrari had built (and that had built Ferrari) because he wasn't getting enough praise in the press.

Brawn and Byrne are both quoted that they could not have achieved what they did without Lucas willingness to invest heavely into the teams tools, windtunnels, facilities and employees like Schumacher. In the meantime he also got Ferrari S.P.A. profitable, with growing sales numbers every year. Plus getting a 400 million dollar + F1 team profitable. And he never wanted Todt, schumacher or Brawn to leave. Brawn wanted a sabbatical, and Todt had enough of doing 7 days 15 hour a day labour. I also think Schumacher was entitled to so well earned retirement. And when he did want to return, it was Di Montezemolo who made it happen. In fact, Montezemolo is the reason why Schumacher is back in F1 today. Oh, and then theres the issue of making FIAT profitable, even in these economic hard times. Thats pedigree for you.

What did Domenicali do again? He let an employee sabotage a car, let highly classified design info to leak away, won the wdc only because the rivals choked on inner team struggles, lost a championship in 2008 partly because of more pitwall goofs, had one of the most bad seasons ever for Ferrari in 2009, had to pay off Kimi to the tune of 50 million dollars and today threw away a championship by some stupid tactical amateur hour errors.

[JustinCider]

Brawn and Byrne are both quoted that they could not have achieved what they did without Lucas willingness to invest heavely into the teams tools, windtunnels, facilities and employees like Schumacher. In the meantime he also got Ferrari S.P.A. profitable, with growing sales numbers every year. Plus getting a 400 million dollar + F1 team profitable. And he never wanted Todt, schumacher or Brawn to leave. Brawn wanted a sabbatical, and Todt had enough of doing 7 days 15 hour a day labour. I also think Schumacher was entitled to so well earned retirement. And when he did want to return, it was Di Montezemolo who made it happen. In fact, Montezemolo is the reason why Schumacher is back in F1 today. Oh, and then theres the issue of making FIAT profitable, even in these economic hard times. Thats pedigree for you.

What did Domenicali do again? He let an employee sabotage a car, let highly classified design info to leak away, won the wdc only because the rivals choked on inner team struggles, lost a championship in 2008 partly because of more pitwall goofs, had one of the most bad seasons ever for Ferrari in 2009, had to pay off Kimi to the tune of 50 million dollars and today threw away a championship by some stupid tactical amateur hour errors.

I'd also bet the last pound in my pocket that if Alonso won the WDC today you would be praising Domenciali to high heaven.

[WhiteBlue]

Ferrari are finished anyway. It doesn't matter if they fire Domenicali or not. They have cheated their way to the end of the season and have used their superior resources much too long. Soon they will have to compete on equal terms. Because they never come up with something ingenious of their own they will fall back to the mid field like the team they were before.

[JackTorrance]

I'd also bet the last pound in my pocket that if Alonso won the WDC today you would be praising Domenciali to high heaven.

I stated several times this season im fed up with Domenicali. Alonso winning wouldnt have changed that very much. If one guy made this final possible, it was Alonso, not Domenicali.