Jump to content


Photo

How to fix the Yas Marina circuit


  • Please log in to reply
290 replies to this topic

#101 mtknot

mtknot
  • Member

  • 641 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 16 November 2010 - 23:10

I still prefer my ideas. Simple and effective without demanding bulldozing and laying waste to a lot of the work already done. Not to mention they make the track faster and possibly demand some greater top speed/downforce compromises.

Posted Image


Probably the only realistic suggestion too. The number 2 chicane reminds me of melbourne, and hopefully the cars can carry that much speed through the corner instead of having time to slow down so much.

In terms of changes, you guys need to realise how big this track is. The problem is that for how big the track is, there is little to do most of the time for the driver, nothing really pushes the car out of balance on this track. Most of the braking zones are completely flat or even uphill, and can be straightlined. Sure there are off camber corners, but they're in slow parts of the track.

Its not like korea, which shows what tilke can do when he doesnt have a brain fart, the cars in S2 are just always out of balance in braking whilst the back straight actually has a downhill braking section.

Edited by mtknot, 16 November 2010 - 23:14.


Advertisement

#102 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 02:41

but alonso was in the tow lap after lap (as was lewis with kubica) and never gained ground whatsoever, so i refute your theory regarding this.

canada is hairpin onto a long straight into a chicane and you get an amazing amount of overtaking, the corner leading onto the straight is not important.


??????????? You answered your own view with your first statement above. simply having a long straight into a tight chicane does NOT create overtaking as I said above. Your example above proves this. So you can refute all you you like, the evidence is crystal.

As to your second point... Canada. Where does most of the overtaking happen??? INTO the hairpin... there are very few overtakes now into the chicane after the long straight, there simply are not. HOWEVER... the openish chicane into a long gentle fast sweep into the main hairpin, is where 90% of the race overtakes are completed.... WHY??? because if a driver gets a decent exit, slightly quicker out of 8 and 9 he then can build his jump on the car ahead....and once he has that momentum, he can gather the tow and make a big lunge down the inside or take a really wide line if the car ahead defends and then overtake on the long straight. The key to this is the ability to have a very wide hairpin with several lines through it.

It really is very simple to understand...and as you noted, the people spouting nonsense are generally the ones who have never raced a car before, thus to say "the corner onto the straight is not important" as you did above, is absolute and utter nonsense. But then this was highlighted by Kubica's comments, so even if you dont believe me, you may consider the words of a current F1 driver that just drove the track, as pretty accurate.

Posted Image

#103 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 02:48

In terms of changes, you guys need to realise how big this track is. The problem is that for how big the track is, there is little to do most of the time for the driver, nothing really pushes the car out of balance on this track. Most of the braking zones are completely flat or even uphill, and can be straightlined. Sure there are off camber corners, but they're in slow parts of the track.
Its not like korea, which shows what tilke can do when he doesnt have a brain fart, the cars in S2 are just always out of balance in braking whilst the back straight actually has a downhill braking section.


Hence why I explained with my proposed changes the impact for the driver and the challenge that would be created by the design of the changed corners:

I agree Kucki...

Here is my idea to change the circuit layout to make for a more enjoying race, greater challenge for the drivers and hopefully more overtaking.

Here is the current layout: (Thank you Bridgestone)
Posted Image

Now... I have made changes in Blue that I would like to see, if the existing direction is to be kept. I hae numbered them to explain my thoughts:

Posted Image

Change No. 1: Quite simple really. I have opened up the radius of the corner and made it MUCH wider. This offers a defensive line which is slightly slower out of the corner, or a much later wider turn in for a faster exit. Obviously the car running behind has to throw an attempt to dive inside, to get the car ahead to cover, then sweep back to the right to try and get that jump onto the straight. If the track is wide enough here, it is possible, and yet keeps action close the the grandstands and offers more chance of overtakes even into the corner. Those taking the wide line and not paying attention, might just get nailed by Banzai late brakers like Koby, who may then lose the place again on the straight and run into the fast S chicane due to poor exit speed of the first hairpin.

Change No. 2: Think Silverstone and Beckets'ish' or Turkey. Basically I would have the cars coming into again a wider turn, faster than present, which allows for greater chances of overshoots, thus allowing someone to dive inside...OR alternatively...hang back a tad as the car ahead overshoots/brakes really late and then get a faster run through into the corner, however go too fast into this and the tightening final part of the S shaped chicane will punish you as it will be negative camber and this will destroy your exit and speed onto the straight. Get it right and again you fly out of the corner onto the next long straight with a chance of overtake again at the end.

Change No. 3: The ever tightening corner!!! Again the fact that entry is high speed, will truly sort the men from the boys, in terms of balance of the car breaking and turning tighter. Leave it too late and you hit the barrier harder than Webber did. Get it just right and as a driver you get that great sensation of maxing a corner on entry, but this is one for the truly brave.

Anyway...these would be my changes to the circuit and I am pretty confident that there would be more overtaking as a result.



#104 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,411 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 17 November 2010 - 03:11

Rob and tightpants have it right though, you can tweak it till you're blue in the face but the section from turns 11 to 21 is where the hotel is and it's almighty SHIT 10 turns of absolute garbage corners.

#105 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 03:36

I have done a Sat view version of my design. I tweaked one of the corners prior to the hotel, the rest of them under and through the hotel I dont mind.

Posted Image

#106 Kelateboy

Kelateboy
  • Member

  • 5,791 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 17 November 2010 - 03:57

Remove T8 and T9 and turn it into 230R or something. That should improve top speed and overtaking along that stretch.

#107 Captain Tightpants

Captain Tightpants
  • Member

  • 8,012 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 04:21

Rob and tightpants have it right though, you can tweak it till you're blue in the face but the section from turns 11 to 21 is where the hotel is and it's almighty SHIT 10 turns of absolute garbage corners.

That's why I kept it in. I couldn't do anything about the stop-start nature of the entry to that corner, but I could alter the exit to give it some radius and then extend the run out of it through a tunnel or over a bridge up to the back straight.

#108 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 5,021 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 17 November 2010 - 05:33

Can someone explain why the Eau Rouge to Kemmel produces overtaking opportunities?
Similarly places on various tracks where overtaking is possible? Which are those track sections?

This could provide better insight than random sugegstions.

#109 Captain Tightpants

Captain Tightpants
  • Member

  • 8,012 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 08:04

Can someone explain why the Eau Rouge to Kemmel produces overtaking opportunities?
Similarly places on various tracks where overtaking is possible? Which are those track sections?

This could provide better insight than random sugegstions.

I think the problem is that circuit design is more of an art than a science. Just because one thing works for one circuit, that does not mean it will work for all circuits.

#110 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 5,021 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 17 November 2010 - 08:10

I think the problem is that circuit design is more of an art than a science. Just because one thing works for one circuit, that does not mean it will work for all circuits.


Im not proposing cloning Eau Rouge and Kemmel. Its the approximate mechanics involved in the process that may help building/suggesting tracks for overtaking.

Does the loss of downforce following a car through the Eau Rouge get compensated by the extra normal force due to the incline?


#111 Rob

Rob
  • Member

  • 8,165 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 17 November 2010 - 10:45

Can someone explain why the Eau Rouge to Kemmel produces overtaking opportunities?
Similarly places on various tracks where overtaking is possible? Which are those track sections?


The key part is more than just Eau Rouge to Kemmel, it starts right at the exit of La Source. All the way along, there are straights and one high speed corner. It's all about momentum. Momentum keeps cars together.

#112 wewantourdarbyback

wewantourdarbyback
  • Member

  • 6,358 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 17 November 2010 - 10:51

but alonso was in the tow lap after lap


Have a look back, he wasn't. The simple reason for that was because Petrov drove smartly. He parked it on the apex of the hairpin when Fred got very close to him. That caused Fred to have to slow more than he wanted ruining his exit while Petrov bolted.

The reason he could do that was because of the design of the previous corner - that was where Fred caught Petrov massively so he was practically in Petrov's diffuser at the apex of the hairpin.

#113 Captain Tightpants

Captain Tightpants
  • Member

  • 8,012 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 11:21

Im not proposing cloning Eau Rouge and Kemmel. Its the approximate mechanics involved in the process that may help building/suggesting tracks for overtaking.

Oh, I get that. The point I'm trying to make is that you have to look at a circuit holistically. Every corner affects every other corner in some small, subtle way. The most brazen example of this is Korea: the first sector favours cars with straightline speed, the second sector affects cars that are good in fast corners, and the final sector is very technical. Tilke compartmentalised each section of the circuit to play to the various strengths of different cars.

#114 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 12:07

Can someone explain why the Eau Rouge to Kemmel produces overtaking opportunities?
Similarly places on various tracks where overtaking is possible? Which are those track sections?

This could provide better insight than random sugegstions.


Vivian, Eau is still one of he most challenging corners in the world for many drivers. The car has to be perfect for you to even consider taking it flat and because the margin of excelleration is so tiny (i.e. if you get on the gas just the slightest bit quicker than the car ahead did at the same point) you stand a very good chance of carrying that extra momentum into the tow zone and once you have tow you can normally make the move at the end of Kemmel.

Due to the blind crest nature of Eau Rouge, it really is a corner that sorts the men from the boys and if you feather just the tiniest amount while the guy behind manages to stay flat, then there is a very good chance he will catch you on the straight. (assuming the cars are running pretty close).

#115 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 9,486 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 17 November 2010 - 12:28

I believe Eau Rouge has been easy flat for some years now, I don't remember seeing drivers lift the throttle in the onboards, unless it's wet. The difficulty and the secret of the corner is probably all about picking the right line, because even flat it's not very easy to get the line 100% right as it all comes so fast, and perhaps also because of the crazy elevation which might have a positive effect about dirty air. But that's wild speculation on my part.

#116 froggy22

froggy22
  • Member

  • 796 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 November 2010 - 12:40

i do think the circuit isnt great for overtaking and some obvious corners need changing (turn 7 chicane) but it does feel like this is a bit of a knee jerk reaction to 2 drivers not being able to get in the slipstream of 2 fast renaults in a straight line. if i remember rightly Petrov's renault was near the top of the speed trap and Bob's renault was similar to Lewis. i know the mclaren has a good f-duct but so do Renault. even Toro rosso's car were quick in a straight line which could also explain why Massa was stuck behind jaime for the majority of the race. i dunno, just a thought

#117 sosidge

sosidge
  • Member

  • 1,631 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 17 November 2010 - 12:54

I believe Eau Rouge has been easy flat for some years now, I don't remember seeing drivers lift the throttle in the onboards, unless it's wet. The difficulty and the secret of the corner is probably all about picking the right line, because even flat it's not very easy to get the line 100% right as it all comes so fast, and perhaps also because of the crazy elevation which might have a positive effect about dirty air. But that's wild speculation on my part.


Indeed, it's all about the line. If you get the line wrong and rub the kerbs on the exit, that loss of momentum alone is enough to generate a pass. It also helps that the straight is properly straight, and that the cars need to run along the left had side of it (drivers eye) to maintain speed. That gives a big gap for challengers to pull alongside.

T7 at Abu Dhabi (the hairpin) is so tight that it becomes a pure traction zone, all the drivers can do is plant their right foot and count on the tyres to do the work. There is no momentum to carry or precision in the line required.

Since I started the thread, I've made a picture of my own suggested modifications...

Posted Image

First change is to straighten the straights so the cars don’t wander across the middle of them on the fastest line (which blocks passing attempts). Second change is to put a high speed chicane in the acceleration zone after the T7 hairpin, to stop the cars getting so spread out at the start of the longest straight, and make line and momentum more important.

#118 Kucki

Kucki
  • Member

  • 1,238 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 13:10

Can someone explain why the Eau Rouge to Kemmel produces overtaking opportunities?
Similarly places on various tracks where overtaking is possible? Which are those track sections?

This could provide better insight than random sugegstions.


Its a long straight after a fast corner. Lets say two cars are nose to tail going into a corner. If its a hairpin, both cars have a huge acceleration zone out of it, they can be very close nose to tail going into the corner but accelerating out of the hairpin opens up a huge gap between them.

You see 2 cars nose to tail going into Eau Rouge and they will be very close to each other coming out of it. Although the car behind might lose a little bit of ground due to the dirty air it runs in, the loss is nowhere near as much as when they accelerate out of a slow corner.

Lets take a look at some places were lots of overtakes have happened in recent years.

Spa: Coming out of Eau Rouge. Coming out of Stavelot.

Melbourne: Coming out of the last turn. Coming out of Turn 1.

Interlagos: Coming out of the last real corner (dont know the name)

They are all fast to medium speed corners. Contrary to popular believe, slow corner - long straight - slow corner is not the solution.

Tilke defenders often say the problem is not Tilke track layouts but the cars.

Failing to see that

a) Even GP2 Porsche Supercup and other series races are boring on Tilke tracks compared to the classics layouts

b) The cars aero dependency and lack of grip in the dirty air does not come into play at all in : slow corner-long straight-slow corner sections. Dirty air and less front wing efficiency has nothing to do with the lack of overtakes at these typical Tilke layout sections.

One of the problems of Alonso trying to overtake Petrov or Hamilton trying to get by Kubica is that the Renaults had a high top speed packages, likely less wings, less downforce more Speed.

Hamilton and Alonso were all over them in corners but had barely a chance.

If Renaults were setup for the straights, then the slow corner long straight slow corner layout plays into the hands of defenders perfectly because what it creates is basicly a drag race, where the car infront gets on the gas half a second earlier and has no disadvantage going through a very slow corner at the beginning of a straight.
While at a place like Melbourne Alonso could have used his superior grip to go through Turn 1 a little bit faster and may have been able to get a little bit closer to try a divebomb at Turn 2. But since there better grip doesnt play a role coming out of a hairpin like at Abu Dhabi Alonso wasnt in a position to even try a serious attempt.

#119 Kucki

Kucki
  • Member

  • 1,238 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 13:12

Can someone explain why the Eau Rouge to Kemmel produces overtaking opportunities?
Similarly places on various tracks where overtaking is possible? Which are those track sections?

This could provide better insight than random sugegstions.


Its a long straight after a fast corner. Lets say two cars are nose to tail going into a corner. If its a hairpin, both cars have a huge acceleration zone out of it, they can be very close nose to tail going into the corner but accelerating out of the hairpin opens up a huge gap between them.

You see 2 cars nose to tail going into Eau Rouge and they will be very close to each other coming out of it. Although the car behind might lose a little bit of ground due to the dirty air it runs in, the loss is nowhere near as much as when they accelerate out of a slow corner.

Lets take a look at some places were lots of overtakes have happened in recent years.

Spa: Coming out of Eau Rouge. Coming out of Stavelot.

Melbourne: Coming out of the last turn. Coming out of Turn 1.

Interlagos: Coming out of the last real corner (dont know the name)

They are all fast to medium speed corners. Contrary to popular believe, slow corner - long straight - slow corner is not the solution.

Tilke defenders often say the problem is not Tilke track layouts but the cars.

Failing to see that

a) Even GP2 Porsche Supercup and other series races are boring on Tilke tracks compared to the classics layouts

b) The cars aero dependency and lack of grip in the dirty air does not come into play at all in : slow corner-long straight-slow corner sections. Dirty air and less front wing efficiency has nothing to do with the lack of overtakes at these typical Tilke layout sections.

One of the problems of Alonso trying to overtake Petrov or Hamilton trying to get by Kubica is that the Renaults had a high top speed packages, likely less wings, less downforce more Speed.

Hamilton and Alonso were all over them in corners but had barely a chance.

If Renaults were setup for the straights, then the slow corner long straight slow corner layout plays into the hands of defenders perfectly because what it creates is basicly a drag race, where the car infront gets on the gas half a second earlier and has no disadvantage going through a very slow corner at the beginning of a straight.
While at a place like Melbourne Alonso could have used his superior grip to go through Turn 1 a little bit faster and may have been able to get a little bit closer to try a divebomb at Turn 2. But since there better grip doesnt play a role coming out of a hairpin like at Abu Dhabi Alonso wasnt in a position to even try a serious attempt.

Advertisement

#120 karlth

karlth
  • Member

  • 16,240 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 17 November 2010 - 13:22

Top speed is not the issue, never has been.

Other things being equal the only thing needed to facilitate overtaking is this: The car with more grip has to be able to take a different and faster line than the slower car through a corner.

That's it.




#121 BigWicks

BigWicks
  • Member

  • 750 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 13:26

Top speed is not the issue, never has been.

Other things being equal the only thing needed to facilitate overtaking is this: The car with more grip has to be able to take a different and faster line than the slower car through a corner.

That's it.


honestly this is rubbish, if the car following is slower in a straight line the how on earth do you expect it to draw alongside and past the leading car?

#122 AlexS

AlexS
  • Member

  • 2,411 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 17 November 2010 - 13:34

Cars are too fast for current tracks. So obviously tracks need to be simplified.

Here is my proposal(note that track should be run clockwise contrary to red arrows ):

Posted Image

Edited by AlexS, 17 November 2010 - 13:36.


#123 BigWicks

BigWicks
  • Member

  • 750 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 13:36

??????????? You answered your own view with your first statement above. simply having a long straight into a tight chicane does NOT create overtaking as I said above. Your example above proves this. So you can refute all you you like, the evidence is crystal.


??????????? my example shows the issue is top speeds, its crystal clear

As to your second point... Canada. Where does most of the overtaking happen??? INTO the hairpin... there are very few overtakes now into the chicane after the long straight, there simply are not. HOWEVER... the openish chicane into a long gentle fast sweep into the main hairpin, is where 90% of the race overtakes are completed.... WHY??? because if a driver gets a decent exit, slightly quicker out of 8 and 9 he then can build his jump on the car ahead....and once he has that momentum, he can gather the tow and make a big lunge down the inside or take a really wide line if the car ahead defends and then overtake on the long straight. The key to this is the ability to have a very wide hairpin with several lines through it.


You know I'm really tired on these forums people just flat out making stuff up... at best the ratio of overtakes is 50/50 between the two respective elements of the track.

When you have decent tyre compounds you get variable levels of tyre wear and you get dramatically differences in the traction zones, hence resulting in a lot of overtaking on that back straight. also as i said before (and you just refused to engage with me), cars at tracks like montreal tend to run with dramatically different downforce levels, you get cars slipstreaming and overtaking each other.

It really is very simple to understand...and as you noted, the people spouting nonsense are generally the ones who have never raced a car before, thus to say "the corner onto the straight is not important" as you did above, is absolute and utter nonsense. But then this was highlighted by Kubica's comments, so even if you dont believe me, you may consider the words of a current F1 driver that just drove the track, as pretty accurate.


You ask ten different drivers and they will give you ten different answers regarding this, so you can cling onto kubica's comments all you want


#124 karlth

karlth
  • Member

  • 16,240 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 17 November 2010 - 14:55

honestly this is rubbish, if the car following is slower in a straight line the how on earth do you expect it to draw alongside and past the leading car?


Read my post again. "Other things being equal".

What on earth has happened to the level of reading comprehension in this forum? Does everything have to be chewed multiple times and spoonfed?


#125 August

August
  • Member

  • 2,046 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 17 November 2010 - 15:45

I have a new proposal. The difference to my original proposal is in orange.

Posted Image

So, after the first long straight there is a fast but quite tight corner. If you have a well balanced car you may get advantage for the following straight. Also, you can try to overtake when braking into that corner.

#126 karlth

karlth
  • Member

  • 16,240 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 17 November 2010 - 15:52

So, after the first long straight there is a fast but quite tight corner. If you have a well balanced car you may get advantage for the following straight. Also, you can try to overtake when braking into that corner.


I think that braking isn't enough any more, that cars performance is too similar. We need at least two lines through a corner.






#127 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 17:51

1: ??????????? my example shows the issue is top speeds, its crystal clear

2: You know I'm really tired on these forums people just flat out making stuff up... at best the ratio of overtakes is 50/50 between the two respective elements of the track.

3: When you have decent tyre compounds you get variable levels of tyre wear and you get dramatically differences in the traction zones, hence resulting in a lot of overtaking on that back straight. also as i said before (and you just refused to engage with me), cars at tracks like montreal tend to run with dramatically different downforce levels, you get cars slipstreaming and overtaking each other.

4: You ask ten different drivers and they will give you ten different answers regarding this, so you can cling onto kubica's comments all you want


Ok... I'll try to answer your points a little clearer.

1: You stated that all that was needed was a long straight into a tight corner. Now it is suddenly about Top Speed? What EXACTLY is it about top speed you are now discussing? are you stating that in order to make use of your straight and tight corner..the car behind must have more top speed than the car ahead????? Well....thats quite brilliant!
How might we achieve this???? Surely we cannot have cars with different engine outputs...that would hardly be fair.... and surely we cannot ask one team to run a Monaco wing configuration while another runs Monza levels of Aero? That's hardly fair either is it.... Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh wait....hang on a minute... we could give the drivers a corner that precedes the long straight.... with multiple lines of opportunity to potentially allow the car behind to get a run at the car ahead...and thus use the momentum combined with the TOW...to then reach your magical point about top speed???? Ding Ding Ding...we have a winner....

2: I wont tell you what I am really tired of!! However it is frustrating to watch someone bang their head against the opinion of many others who all seem to be saying the same thing and yet you remain convinced that your view is correct?
With regards the point of Canada you are factually incorrect to state that 50% of the overtakes are done at the hairpin and 50% at the chicane. (which is what I stated). There are indeed a good number of overtakes done on the straight preceding the chicane by the start finish straight...and why would that be?????? Because of the wide hairpin allowing multiple different lines and allowing the car to catch the tow...etc etc etc...Ding Ding Ding...we have a winner....
So even the most stubborn of individuals will start to realise that the corner precededing the long straight really is key to what happens on that straight.... and the corner preceding the hairpin is key to the overtakes into the hairpin......is this sinking in yet?

3: With regards not engaging with you? If I feel a point being made is beyond utter nonsense then I generally wont bother to 'engage'. Abu-Dhabi is actually quite similar to Canada in terms of configuration problems, you can either go for high straight line speed or more wing for the twisty sections. The classic example of this was JB last year in the Brawn... tonnes of slow corner speed grip, but not quite as quick on the straight..and hence why overtaking was a real issue for him. However the nonsense element comes when you try and state that during the race, the teams now run radically different aero set-up's. That's utter rubbish.
The teams know come Saturday exactly what the fastest strategy is in terms of aero and most teams opt for a very similar level of aero set-up, it then comes down to the chassis as to which team is that fraction better than the others.
Now... what you might be mistaking your opinion on aero from in terms of wildly different set-ups is the difference between a dry and a wet set-up. This is often used in SPA and Canada when weather can be variable, THEN you often see a marked difference in aero set-up.

4: No you really wont. You ask a driver that does not know what the hell he is talking about, or has never actually driven a car with wings and yes you might get a different opinion. However, my views on preceding corners being key to long straights, are mirrored by Kubica yes...and many other people in this thread.... if you simply wish to stand by your own opinion then knock yourself out, but I think it is fair to say, you have not convinced anyone yet through evidence, that your opinion is in any way correct.

Hope that helps and Have a nice evening.


#128 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,411 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 17 November 2010 - 18:04



#129 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 18:18


:lol: I think everyone understands the point that you really hate this track Alfisti....lol

#130 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,411 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 17 November 2010 - 18:21

:lol: I think everyone understands the point that you really hate this track Alfisti....lol


Sadly it has potential but much like Bahraihn it's almost as if he started with a great track then added 97 more corners just because.



#131 AlexS

AlexS
  • Member

  • 2,411 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 17 November 2010 - 18:51

Sadly it has potential but much like Bahraihn it's almost as if he started with a great track then added 97 more corners just because.


Precisely.

#132 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 19:00

Yep agreed. However what I think this thread hs shown, is that 99% of people pretty much all agree that the chicane at 5&6 has to go and turn 7 replaced with a huge hairpin/double apex corner with several lines through it.

If they changed nothing else but that on the circuit...I believe it would improve overtaking for next year when combined with KERS and moveable rear wings.

#133 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 8,140 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 19:05

Sadly it has potential but much like Bahraihn it's almost as if he started with a great track then added 97 more corners just because.


:lol: I get that impression with most all Tilke tracks.

#134 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,411 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 17 November 2010 - 19:28

:lol: I get that impression with most all Tilke tracks.



Even Turkey and Korea, whilst much better the lap is too damned long. The more laps the better IMHo as you hit over taking zones more often. At least other long tracks like Spa, it feels like each turn is going somewhere, doing something. These newer ones have a few good corners then it's like "OK what can we add to get a 2 minute lap time?"

#135 BigWicks

BigWicks
  • Member

  • 750 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 20:10

1: You stated that all that was needed was a long straight into a tight corner. Now it is suddenly about Top Speed? What EXACTLY is it about top speed you are now discussing? are you stating that in order to make use of your straight and tight corner..the car behind must have more top speed than the car ahead????? Well....thats quite brilliant!


Yes...

How might we achieve this???? Surely we cannot have cars with different engine outputs...that would hardly be fair....


Actually if you opened up the engine rules so that they aren't rev limited anymore cars woud be able to slipstream past each other again, as opposed to the situation we have now where they bang against the rev limiter more often than not.

and surely we cannot ask one team to run a Monaco wing configuration while another runs Monza levels of Aero? That's hardly fair either is it....


Actually the best tracks where you get the best racing are where more than one level of downforce is effective. Layout is vastly overrated. Using some peoples logic in this thread we'd see loads of overtaking at Bahrain because design wise it is exactly what they are proposing we do to Abu Dhabi, but actually we get less overtaking at Bahrain than at Abu Dhabi. Just think about that.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh wait....hang on a minute... we could give the drivers a corner that precedes the long straight.... with multiple lines of opportunity to potentially allow the car behind to get a run at the car ahead...and thus use the momentum combined with the TOW...to then reach your magical point about top speed???? Ding Ding Ding...we have a winner....


If every car is reaching its terminal velocity before the end of the straight then that doesn't make any difference. Really.

2: I wont tell you what I am really tired of!! However it is frustrating to watch someone bang their head against the opinion of many others who all seem to be saying the same thing and yet you remain convinced that your view is correct?
With regards the point of Canada you are factually incorrect to state that 50% of the overtakes are done at the hairpin and 50% at the chicane. (which is what I stated). There are indeed a good number of overtakes done on the straight preceding the chicane by the start finish straight...and why would that be?????? Because of the wide hairpin allowing multiple different lines and allowing the car to catch the tow...etc etc etc...Ding Ding Ding...we have a winner....
So even the most stubborn of individuals will start to realise that the corner precededing the long straight really is key to what happens on that straight.... and the corner preceding the hairpin is key to the overtakes into the hairpin......is this sinking in yet?


Actually if you read my posts you'd see I was agreeing with you and you've just proved my point for me, cheers ! :rotfl:

3: With regards not engaging with you? If I feel a point being made is beyond utter nonsense then I generally wont bother to 'engage'. Abu-Dhabi is actually quite similar to Canada in terms of configuration problems, you can either go for high straight line speed or more wing for the twisty sections. The classic example of this was JB last year in the Brawn... tonnes of slow corner speed grip, but not quite as quick on the straight..and hence why overtaking was a real issue for him. However the nonsense element comes when you try and state that during the race, the teams now run radically different aero set-up's. That's utter rubbish.


"you try and state that during the race, the teams now run radically different aero set-up's. " WHERE HAVE I SAID THAT :D if you are going to troll me kid you will have to try a lot harder.

The teams know come Saturday exactly what the fastest strategy is in terms of aero and most teams opt for a very similar level of aero set-up, it then comes down to the chassis as to which team is that fraction better than the others.
Now... what you might be mistaking your opinion on aero from in terms of wildly different set-ups is the difference between a dry and a wet set-up. This is often used in SPA and Canada when weather can be variable, THEN you often see a marked difference in aero set-up.


i don't understand what you are saying anymore

#136 August

August
  • Member

  • 2,046 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 17 November 2010 - 20:24


What's that video, I can't see it in Finland.

#137 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,411 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 17 November 2010 - 21:24

What's that video, I can't see it in Finland.


Pretty harmless, "Bombtrack" by Rage Against The Machine. Yet another example showing how lame music is right now.

#138 Les

Les
  • Member

  • 2,067 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 22:32

Here's my idea. Run it clockwise, plenty of fast challenging corners, hopefully a nice overtaking point and a tightening of the joke 'reverse Eau Rouge' into a challenging s-bend complex. It's a shorter lap so the race would have more laps and theoretically more overtaking chances too.

Posted Image

Of course its my dream change to the track and it bypasses the all-important hotel and marina section which will always come before a challenging circuit to those in power. That's why it wouldn't ever happen. If a change takes place it will be far more minor but I hope that they can change the ridiculous section at turns 5-6-7 into a double apex corner or something similar as has been discussed in this (and the other identical one cough cough) thread.

#139 Piffles

Piffles
  • Member

  • 45 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 17 November 2010 - 22:41

Reading this thread got my imagination going, so here's my utterly pointless suggestion for a Yas Marina circuit.

Posted Image

Key features (in part inspired by suggestions in this thread)

In general:
- Corners have names (none of this Turn 1, Turn 2 rubbish)
- Grass or at least astroturf all around the track (if it's all tarmac, what's the point?)
- No obvious purpose build overtaking areas. Good, flowing corners just create good racing without necessarily putting in 2km long straights with hairpins at the end.

Corner changes:
- Turn 1 widened to be a high speed almost flat corner, similar to Copse at Silverstone. There's lots of runoff and it would increase speed into the fake Eau Rouge corner, maybe making it more of a challenge
- The pathetic chicane hairpin combintion replaced by a double apex corner, combination of a Turn 7-8 Sepang and Coppice corner at Donington, long corner that opens up at the exit (especially nice for the bikes)
- 2nd part of the tight chicane at the end of the long straight opened up to give a Melbourne Turn 1 kind of corner.
- Curb hopping mess at the end of the second straight replaced by a gradually slowing 180 corner, kinf of a faster version of Moss corner at Mosport, with a nice wide entry to allow people to try a tight line into the corner for overtaking;
- The hotel section is unchanged. I added an extra Bus Stop chicane to make this Complex the "Monaco" section of the track. Curb hopping, kissing walls all in a low speed, twisty fiddly section. Would be a challenge to find a setup that can rally around there will being super stable in the other fast bits.
- Final corner widened to make it faster and similar to the final turn at Adelaide. It's pointless, and just breaks up the racing, to have them brake, point at squirt for that corner now. A nice flowing single downshift is nicer.

Advertisement

#140 Eff One 2002

Eff One 2002
  • Member

  • 879 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 17 November 2010 - 23:18

How to fix it? Tear it up and start again.

#141 APR824

APR824
  • Member

  • 43 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 18 November 2010 - 00:35

How to fix it? Tear it up and start again.

Added to that, dig up some of the plot of land and put the dirt on the other side, elevations are where it's at!

#142 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 5,021 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 18 November 2010 - 01:22

Top speed is not the issue, never has been.

Other things being equal the only thing needed to facilitate overtaking is this: The car with more grip has to be able to take a different and faster line than the slower car through a corner.

That's it.



Your statement is too general. Grip : Aero or/and Mech ?
Marbles, dust etc will affect taking the different line.


#143 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 18 November 2010 - 02:41

Ok... this will probably be my last post to you as clearly your tone deaf and then prepared to deny what you have said previously, which makes a discussion pointless.

Yes...

No shite Sherlock!!! If Car B is faster than Car A, of course he will overtake... but what happens when they come around again? That's it...?? Just one overtake and thats it? Your digging now on this point and starting to bore. You cannot have cars at different performance levels, unless you have equal levels on engines, but some form of push to pass system, or KERS, etc. Which is NOT what you have said to date. If you are basing your arument on what you have seen on the TV...again...this becomes pointless. But just to shed a little light for you, Ill explain as simply and clearly as I can...

TOP SPEED IS IRRELEVENT... if the guy ahead of you gets onto the gas faster than you and you have equal cars (generally best to have equal cars for racing) then once he gets to more or less his top speed, the guy behind is more or less still catching up, until the braking zone. HOWEVER..here's the bit that you so boldly dismissed and I quoted below. If the guy behind can take a different line in the preceding corner to the straight and manage to get onto the gas a little quiker than the car ahead, then he not only starts to catch the car ahead, but with the effect of 'TOW' can increase that momentum to shoot past either on the brakes or ideally before. The reason why Alonso could not overtake as was explained to you, was the simple fact that Petrov backed Alonso up in the first hairpin by covering the line, then getting away before Alonso physically could, because Petrovs car was in the way. The only way to artificially make this irrelevent is to add a Boost or Push to pass system. OTHERWISE the preceding corner IS THE most important factor for a driver to make use of the straight.

"Actually if you opened up the engine rules so that they aren't rev limited anymore cars woud be able to slipstream past each other again, as opposed to the situation we have now where they bang against the rev limiter more often than not."
So how do you explain that during the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix not one car was hitting the rev limiter on the long straight? The opening up the engine rules, costs sky rocket again and to be honest...where is the limit? 20,000 revs, 30,000 revs? If one team manages to make their engine much more powerful...where is this racing we are looking for? The more powrful car will simply bugger off.

"Actually the best tracks where you get the best racing are where more than one level of downforce is effective. Layout is vastly overrated. Using some peoples logic in this thread we'd see loads of overtaking at Bahrain because design wise it is exactly what they are proposing we do to Abu Dhabi, but actually we get less overtaking at Bahrain than at Abu Dhabi. Just think about that."
Bahrain is nothing like Abu Dhabi, even with the changes people are proposing... period. If you fancy posting a map of Bahraine next to Abu Dhabi and showing us how you come to this opinion... please go ahead. As to the statement that Layout is vastly overrated..... :lol: Because of course Monaco is great for overtaking isnt? Oh wait...no, what your saying is that because no one runs different set-ups, that's why there is no overtaking at Monaco. Seriously...... just stop now. Oh...and I am pretty sure you again reference more than one level of downforce again yet denied making any such claim below??!!??

"If every car is reaching its terminal velocity before the end of the straight then that doesn't make any difference. Really."
Who said anything about terminal velocity? Look up the word 'Facetious'.. as that was what I was refering with the 'magical top speed' quote. You failed to explain in any way shape or form what you meant by Top speed and as I have explained above, its actually got bugger all to do with top speed, assuming all cars should be equal.

"Actually if you read my posts you'd see I was agreeing with you and you've just proved my point for me, cheers !"
Actually the difference is, I DID read your post/posts and just to be sure lets remind ourselves of the words you used:

the corner leading onto the straight is not important

So unless you have suddenly changed your opinion...No you have not been agreeing with me. As this is what I said:

So even the most stubborn of individuals will start to realise that the corner precededing the long straight really is key to what happens on that straight.... and the corner preceding the hairpin is key to the overtakes into the hairpin......is this sinking in yet?

:wave:
To you, it was all about the straight and big stop at the end. What everyone here has pretty much told you, is that it is actually the preceding corner of the long straight that actually makes the most difference for overtaking. If you still dont accept that then you are beyond reasoning with. Or maybe you do now accept that?? Your answers keep changing so now I am confused.

"you try and state that during the race, the teams now run radically different aero set-up's. " WHERE HAVE I SAID THAT :D if you are going to troll me kid you will have to try a lot harder.

Is possibly the most bizarre backtrack and accusation I have seen, but again to be clear here are your words:

cars at tracks like montreal tend to run with dramatically different downforce levels, you get cars slipstreaming and overtaking each other.

So I think it is fair to say that you did suggest that cars run 'dramatically' different levels, so my comment was pretty spot on (aero is another word for downforce by the way). Or maybe you now realise that your accusation of 'trolling' is a little ...well how shall we say... daft? And as to the 'Kid' part... I am probably considerably older than you, so I suggest you dont go there.

"i don't understand what you are saying anymore"
I ammended this for you:

I dont understand

and I agree...you really dont.

I suspect you will swear you didnt state half those things in quotes, in which case any further discussion with you is pointless. The long and the short of it is... your original statement:

abu dhabi has really two long straights followed by two tight corners, that is perfect for overtaking why was there no overtaking then? in the case of this race, because everyone had pretty much identical top speeds

is simply not correct. It has been explained to you why... if you still still dont accept that, then good luck to ya... :rolleyes:





#144 FW09

FW09
  • Member

  • 318 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 18 November 2010 - 02:51

The new tracks (Abu Dhabi, Valencia etc.) are too good. Too wide and smooth tarmac with huge tarmac run offs. It's almost impossible to make any mistakes. And if you still manage to go wide you don't even lose one place.

Make the track narrower and bumpier with some sand on the side. Then you have to be more careful most of the time, but you can take some risks here and there to overtake.



#145 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 18 November 2010 - 02:55

Make the track narrower and bumpier with some sand on the side. Then you have to be more careful most of the time, but you can take some risks here and there to overtake.


Not sure about this chief... if the guy in front hogs the clean racing line and the car behind has to make a huge lunge on a 'sandy' line...the overtaking car will simply sail off into the barriers and the car with all the grip disappears off. Corners should be as wide as possible to allow different lines. That way the drivers choice can sometime make the difference. If there is only one true line, there is no chance to overtake.

#146 FW09

FW09
  • Member

  • 318 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 18 November 2010 - 03:03

Not sure about this chief... if the guy in front hogs the clean racing line and the car behind has to make a huge lunge on a 'sandy' line...the overtaking car will simply sail off into the barriers and the car with all the grip disappears off. Corners should be as wide as possible to allow different lines. That way the drivers choice can sometime make the difference. If there is only one true line, there is no chance to overtake.


However wide the track is, there is still only one clean racing line. It's very easy to see in Valencia.

The tracks should be more difficult. The narrow and bumpy concept seems to work well in Interlagos.



#147 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 18 November 2010 - 03:17

However wide the track is, there is still only one clean racing line. It's very easy to see in Valencia.
The tracks should be more difficult. The narrow and bumpy concept seems to work well in Interlagos.


Yes there is a cleaner line but if a corner has several lines like for example turn one in Brazil or several corners at Spa, then you often have different drivers using slightly different lines and so the 'option' lines are often not that bad.

But I do agree that circuits should be more challenging. Becketts remains one of the best drivers corners in F1.

#148 FW09

FW09
  • Member

  • 318 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 18 November 2010 - 03:40

I'd say that the best races are usually in Melbourne, Montreal and Sao Paulo. What do they have in common?

Old fashion narrow tracks with bad tarmac and small run offs. Difficult tracks where you can't just go flat out all the time.



#149 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 5,021 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 18 November 2010 - 03:56

Its a long straight after a fast corner. Lets say two cars are nose to tail going into a corner. If its a hairpin, both cars have a huge acceleration zone out of it, they can be very close nose to tail going into the corner but accelerating out of the hairpin opens up a huge gap between them.

You see 2 cars nose to tail going into Eau Rouge and they will be very close to each other coming out of it. Although the car behind might lose a little bit of ground due to the dirty air it runs in, the loss is nowhere near as much as when they accelerate out of a slow corner.


Still we dont know what is the cause for that.

And also the last corner in Brazil leading to the main straight. Somehow cars are able to pull up alongside.

You say its fast corners leading to long straights help overtaking. But does the elevation change help? I mean if the Eau Rouge and Brazil were flat, would it produce overtaking? Also the track needs to be medium downforce track. If you look at Monza, the parabolica is a fast corner leading onto a long straight. But cars hardly overtake, cos its low downforce track.

Both Brazil and Spa are medium downforce tracks ?

------------

Maybe you are right. Fast corner leading onto main straight with the track being atleast medium DF circuit.

Edited by vivian, 18 November 2010 - 03:59.


#150 Radoye

Radoye
  • Member

  • 827 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 18 November 2010 - 04:35

Posted Image
Just my opinion.. :p

:up: