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How to fix the Yas Marina circuit


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#201 phil1993

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 18:55

Remove the off-camber apexes and exits. Makes the track seem slow

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#202 senna da silva

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 18:57

Isuspect it'll be a very different race this year with the DRS. They should make the DRS zones long just to ensure overtaking. Lol.

#203 chdphd

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 19:07

They'll all hit the rev limiter and it'll be deja vu all over again.

#204 Morbus

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 19:19

Exactly, how to fix the Yas Marina circuit? Enforce a rev limit that cannot be reached in top gear without the DRS. Or without the DRS AND a tow, for good measure.

#205 nimbus111

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 19:21

make DRS availiable around the whole track, that might be an easy quick fix.

#206 August

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 22:25

@August you proposed the very same thing on page 4, what made you change your mind?


I've changed my mind coz the purpose of that section is to be kind of arena with track between grandstands. With my last year's proposal those grandstands would even be impractical. The track will for sure stay between those grandstands. Baddoer's proposal might be one (and maybe the only) safe way to make that hairpin faster.

#207 Kubiccia

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 22:31

Answering the thread's question, throw a bomb and start from zero.

#208 BigCHrome

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 04:27

The problem has been known for 20 years, modern F1 lack mechanical grip so out of tight corners such as 7 and 8/9 before a long straight the car in front "jumps" and the car behind struggles to catch up before the braking zone even with DRS.

7 and 8/9 need to be fast enough for downforce to play a role, it really is that simple.

India was the same, car in front "jumped" from turn 3 and the car behind struggled to catch him even on a massive straight with DRS. The really wide entry to India turn 3 certainly helped so maybe Yas Marina could at least consider doing that at 7 and 8.


:rotfl: No.

Fast enough for downforce to play a role = the car behind loses grip in the dirty air and would be slower on exit.

#209 cheapracer

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 04:46

Exactly, how to fix the Yas Marina circuit? Enforce a rev limit that cannot be reached in top gear without the DRS. Or without the DRS AND a tow, for good measure.


Yup, 7th gear should be a single spec ratio for everyone that reaches 330kmh on the rev limiter ie; overdrive. Of course this speed can never be reached anywhere but resolves the problem of banging the rev limiter when you are halfway through passing a car.

:rotfl: No.

Fast enough for downforce to play a role = the car behind loses grip in the dirty air and would be slower on exit.


You didn't watch F1 this year I have to presume.


#210 BigCHrome

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 05:00

Yup, 7th gear should be a single spec ratio for everyone that reaches 330kmh on the rev limiter ie; overdrive. Of course this speed can never be reached anywhere but resolves the problem of banging the rev limiter when you are halfway through passing a car.



You didn't watch F1 this year I have to presume.


I have to presume you've never watched F1.

#211 ViMaMo

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 07:44

2 too long straights render passing impossible like Monza.

Replace one of the straights with a series of medium speed corners.

#212 Kelateboy

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 08:21

I'd say get rid of Turn 8 and 9 and turn the stretch into a parabola with 130 radius....

#213 August

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 20:58

I think I've realised what makes Interlagos's main straight and Spa's Kemmel straight so good overtaking places. Interlagos's 3rd sector enables cars to drive close to the car ahead, as most corners are slow. But then, there's faster Mergulho corner, which somewhat stretches the queue before Juncao. Abu Dhabi's problem is that the chicane before T7 causes the car behind catch the car ahead, making the car behind unable to get a speed advantage for the following straight. At Interlagos's Juncao the car behind can get speed advantage for the long straight, and besides, the downforce loss's effect at Juncao is not too big.

I think Spa is somewhat similar. Before Eau Rouge, there are the slow corners of Bus Stop and La Source, enabling the car behind get close. Then, Eau Rouge is a corner where you can gain speed compared to the car ahead. But Abu Dhabi. I think the pit straight would offer best overtaking opportunities, but it's just too short, and you can't lenghten it, because of a canal. IIRC, Alonso was often closest to Petrov exactly at the pit straight, because Abu Dhabi's S3 has somewhat similar features to Interlagos's S3. The hotel complex's 90-deg corners are slow enabling the car behind catch the car ahead. Then, there's somewhat long straight followed by a medium speed penultimate corner. The last corner is a bit Juncao-like, enabling the car behind get speed advantage. The start of the lap is maybe the nicest section to drive, but it's bad for overtaking. I'd say it's the only part of the circuit where the car behind loses downforce, and replacing chicane-hairpin sequence by a long-radius corner, as has been proposed in this thread, wouldn't help overtaking either, because of downforce loss. So, I think a Juncao-like 90-deg corner before the long straight might be the least bad corner before the long straight. But that wouldn't be a good solution considering the grandstands at the hairpin. Also, the T8-T9 chicane could be a bit faster, making overtaking at the second straight maybe a bit easier. But, redesigning the circuit and relocating the grandstands might be the only way to make Yas Marina provide good racing.

#214 falkenauge

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 21:02

Two DRS-Zones in Abu Dhabi. I don´t think DRS will help here to much, fear reather that it´s such a big help like in Monza... :well:

#215 Ferrari2183

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 08:18

Answering the thread's question, throw a bomb and start from zero.

:up: :up: :up:

#216 Shevek

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 08:42

Answering the thread's question, throw a bomb and start from zero.


Yup:

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#217 bonneville

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 10:03

Less turns and more flow please. :wave:

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#218 Lights

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 10:32

It's a really odd circuit. You'd think that from the looks off it, overtaking should be possible. But the circuit is too produced, there's no flow, and I believe the teams quite easily found perfect setups for their car. The track is wide but dusty and only the racing line counts. Bahrain is more exciting and it shouldn't be.

#219 One

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 13:32

It's a really odd circuit. You'd think that from the looks off it, overtaking should be possible. But the circuit is too produced, there's no flow, and I believe the teams quite easily found perfect setups for their car. The track is wide but dusty and only the racing line counts. Bahrain is more exciting and it shouldn't be.


OK, so the solution can be found in the area where:

1. different sectors to have more distinct characters.
2. less 'well-composed' track lay out
3. difficult to make choice as to where a team should focus their set ups
4. dusty condition to give some advantages occasionally to a race car...
5. ...

I tried to use as many alternatives that are built already in track. I changed three positions in a new sequences. Split streights in three zone where KERS and DRS can be applied in a different ways.
Cars now have two acceleration weapons to give them three chances then something may happen...

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Edited by One, 08 November 2011 - 13:34.


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#220 FlatOverCrest

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 14:39

My thoughts have not changed much since last year on this..

Here is my idea to change the circuit layout to make for a more enjoying race, greater challenge for the drivers and hopefully more overtaking.

Here is the current layout: (Thank you Bridgestone)
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Now... I have made changes in Blue that I would like to see, if the existing direction is to be kept. I have numbered them to explain my thoughts:

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Change No. 1: Quite simple really. I have opened up the radius of the corner and made it MUCH wider. This offers a defensive line which is slightly slower out of the corner, or a much later wider turn in for a faster exit. Obviously the car running behind has to throw an attempt to dive inside, to get the car ahead to cover, then sweep back to the right to try and get that jump onto the straight. If the track is wide enough here, it is possible, and yet keeps action close the the grandstands and offers more chance of overtakes even into the corner. Those taking the wide line and not paying attention, might just get nailed by Banzai late brakers like Koby, who may then lose the place again on the straight and run into the fast S chicane due to poor exit speed of the first hairpin.

Change No. 2: Think Silverstone and Beckets'ish' or Turkey. Basically I would have the cars coming into again a wider turn, faster than present, which allows for greater chances of overshoots, thus allowing someone to dive inside...OR alternatively...hang back a tad as the car ahead overshoots/brakes really late and then get a faster run through into the corner, however go too fast into this and the tightening final part of the S shaped chicane will punish you as it will be negative camber and this will destroy your exit and speed onto the straight. Get it right and again you fly out of the corner onto the next long straight with a chance of overtake again at the end.

Change No. 3: The ever tightening corner!!! Again the fact that entry is high speed, will truly sort the men from the boys, in terms of balance of the car breaking and turning tighter. Leave it too late and you hit the barrier harder than Webber did. Get it just right and as a driver you get that great sensation of maxing a corner on entry, but this is one for the truly brave.


I think some smoothing of the fiddly sections would also be useful.

#221 One

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 15:00

:up:

Great over the point 3 I share the idea. I was doing this just now, before you post yours, FOC.

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Hear pin to be more part of sequence of corners.
The point 2 of yours FOC I will leave it as is.
Point three is spiral, Super G section.



#222 johnmhinds

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 15:27

Adding the Suzuka 'S' Curves or Maggotts-Becktts right before a hairpin shows a basic misunderstanding of how those corners work on the tracks you're taking them from.

They are designed to punish minor errors made by the driver in front.

You need a flowing corner or a straight after the twisty section for the car behind to punish the minor error by being able to carry more speed through the exit.

Having a hairpin so soon after the curves would just neutralise the whole point of that section of track.

#223 BiH

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 15:31

is there actually any chance to the layout from last year?



#224 One

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 15:37

Adding the Suzuka 'S' Curves or Maggotts-Becktts right before a hairpin shows a basic misunderstanding of how those corners work on the tracks you're taking them from.

They are designed to punish minor errors made by the driver in front.

You need a flowing corner or a straight after the twisty section for the car behind to punish the minor error by being able to carry more speed through the exit.

Having a hairpin so soon after the curves would just neutralise the whole point of that section of track.


I will call this a Blah Blah, ... if this were known as you may suggest then why there is no right solution anywhere?
the answer. the thing you said hav been done many times and now we need more driving challenge that is far beyond your critical mind...

:lol:

my 2 cents. Do not under estimate Tilke. he knows more than you!

#225 Risil

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 15:56

Adding the Suzuka 'S' Curves or Maggotts-Becktts right before a hairpin shows a basic misunderstanding of how those corners work on the tracks you're taking them from.


The Suzuka S curves aren't followed by a long straight. :) Mind you, there's not much overtaking at Suzuka. It's a bit like the first two sectors of Donington Park in that respect, lots of quick challenging corners leading to more quick challenging corners. So all the passing is either pretty risky, or takes place at the hairpin complex at the end of the lap.

#226 johnmhinds

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 16:06

I will call this a Blah Blah, ... if this were known as you may suggest then why there is no right solution anywhere?
the answer. the thing you said hav been done many times and now we need more driving challenge that is far beyond your critical mind...

:lol:

my 2 cents. Do not under estimate Tilke. he knows more than you!


Yeah because we all know Tilke for his hard to drive and varied circuits...

Oh wait no it's the complete opposite. All of the Tilke designs are plagued by mid length straights followed by tight corners, with one racing line that is far too easy to defend on.

Edited by johnmhinds, 08 November 2011 - 16:07.


#227 One

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 16:38

Yeah because we all know Tilke for his hard to drive and varied circuits...

Oh wait no it's the complete opposite. All of the Tilke designs are plagued by mid length straights followed by tight corners, with one racing line that is far too easy to defend on.


Well I guess, who I am I to say, that harder thingis to 'correct' what Tilke has realized and everyone complained its problems already... :)

Fundamentally I sure think that we need Austin before we complain more about Tilke. :smoking:

#228 One

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 16:41

The Suzuka S curves aren't followed by a long straight. :) Mind you, there's not much overtaking at Suzuka. It's a bit like the first two sectors of Donington Park in that respect, lots of quick challenging corners leading to more quick challenging corners. So all the passing is either pretty risky, or takes place at the hairpin complex at the end of the lap.


This is interesting, 'cause Spa got this Puhon to Branchimont section where things goes a bit out of control and we saw thing there. How about Brazil? I got to say that that natural topology is a miracle...

#229 Aieljose

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 16:46

How to fix it? Drop a nuke on it then build a newer better circuit in it's place. Problem solved!

#230 Risil

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 16:47

Yeah because we all know Tilke for his hard to drive and varied circuits...

Oh wait no it's the complete opposite. All of the Tilke designs are plagued by mid length straights followed by tight corners, with one racing line that is far too easy to defend on.


It's funny, if you look at the Aragon circuit in MotoGP, fantastic circuit, with good length straights, long, challenging corners and lots of elevation changes. And a few very visually striking features. But the "F1 configuration" has these weird hairpins in it! I think what we see as Tilke's problem is quite specifically an F1 problem.

At the risk of stating the obvious, for all Abu Dhabi and Tilke's talk about a total blank canvas for the circuit, the track was clearly designed to fit the hotel. And at the risk of further stating the obvious, Tilke's repetition of a few ideas (which may be erroneous) in dozens of different projects would put him in the company of 95% of other architects. :)

Edited by Risil, 08 November 2011 - 16:50.


#231 maximilian

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 16:48

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#232 One

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 17:05

Adding the Suzuka 'S' Curves or Maggotts-Becktts right before a hairpin shows a basic misunderstanding of how those corners work on the tracks you're taking them from.

They are designed to punish minor errors made by the driver in front.

You need a flowing corner or a straight after the twisty section for the car behind to punish the minor error by being able to carry more speed through the exit.

Having a hairpin so soon after the curves would just neutralise the whole point of that section of track.


OK, so how about this.

I re introduce my last (year's) idea to make figure of '8' and thereby reversing the rotation of Esses Section to fix the point you mentioned.
This I had in my mind but kept silent being learned from NYC GP thread.

Posted Image

I guess this will make a good track?

#233 August

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 17:12

@One:

I didn't like your New Jersey proposal, but these proposals look good. Those esses don't make the cars go in a queue without gaps, like the chicane before hairpin does. If you proposal were realised, maybe the hairpin should be a bit earlier, but still inside the 'arena', unlike in FOC's proposal. The loop after the second long straight might work or might not, the car behind might lose downforce.

But, as I said earlier, I think a long straight after the 3rd sector might be the best overtaking place. The slow corners separated by short straights make it possible for the car behind get close, but not too close, to the car ahead. So, I changed the direction of the circuit to have current S3 before a long straight and I also made some modifications.

Posted Image

The hotel complex would need some reprofiling to accomodate some runoffs at brakings. But the first significant change would be at the place of current T11-T14. I'd replace those corners with a 90-deg corner leading to a flat-out sweep, like at Interlagos's Juncao. Then, the chicane between the long straights would have a sweeping exit. As the straight leading to hairpin would need some runoff at the hairpin, I have a tight turn already some 200 meters before the hairpin, and then have an 'arena section' at the place of hairpin. After the hairpin there would now be no need for the chicane, but the current T1-T3 might need some reprofiling because of different runoffs needed for different driving direction.

Edit: quite many posts appeared while writing this. :)

Edited by August, 08 November 2011 - 17:13.


#234 BuzzingHornet

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 17:19

I like your ideas to make the circuit flaster and more flowing but unfortunately I think they made it they way it is to restrict laptime by being deliberately fiddly... its basically the mother of all go-kart tracks.

#235 August

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 17:25

It's funny, if you look at the Aragon circuit in MotoGP, fantastic circuit, with good length straights, long, challenging corners and lots of elevation changes. And a few very visually striking features. But the "F1 configuration" has these weird hairpins in it! I think what we see as Tilke's problem is quite specifically an F1 problem.

At the risk of stating the obvious, for all Abu Dhabi and Tilke's talk about a total blank canvas for the circuit, the track was clearly designed to fit the hotel. And at the risk of further stating the obvious, Tilke's repetition of a few ideas (which may be erroneous) in dozens of different projects would put him in the company of 95% of other architects. :)


That's the bad thing of modern F1 circuits. I loved Estoril's old T1 in Grand Prix 2.

I re introduce my last (year's) idea to make figure of '8' and thereby reversing the rotation of Esses Section to fix the point you mentioned.


The figure of '8' isn't just realistic, it'd need too much work. Otherwise, you seem to have tried to use existing parts of the track as much as possible, but paving is much easier than building a bridge. But, still that layout looks nice, even thogh the loop should be a bit earlier to accommodate a runoff, as well as the hairpin should be a bit earlier also to accommodate a runoff.

#236 August

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 17:34

I like your ideas to make the circuit flaster and more flowing but unfortunately I think they made it they way it is to restrict laptime by being deliberately fiddly... its basically the mother of all go-kart tracks.


I think the corners are slow because Yas Marina was originally designed to be a street circuit. (even thogh I don't know how you can comprise a that kind of lap of streets)

#237 Amphicar

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 18:34

Persuade the Abu Dhabi authorities to follow the lead of the Qataris and buy up a European circuit instead - I suggest Spa. Yaspa Marina perhaps?

#238 Risil

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 18:36

Persuade the Abu Dhabi authorities to follow the lead of the Qataris and buy up a European circuit instead - I suggest Spa. Yaspa Marina perhaps?


Hmm. Aren't the Chinese buying up bits of land in Iceland? Maybe we could send a trade delegation over there to see if they're interested in these nice bits of the Ardennes? :drunk:

#239 johnmhinds

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 18:57

OK, so how about this.

I re introduce my last (year's) idea to make figure of '8' and thereby reversing the rotation of Esses Section to fix the point you mentioned.
This I had in my mind but kept silent being learned from NYC GP thread.

Posted Image

I guess this will make a good track?


It's an improvement I guess, but also impractical with the cross over.

Sadly I think the track can't be fixed, they had all the space in the world to build a good circuit in and then they tried to be clever by building half a faux street circuit around a pointless hotel.

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#240 LiJu914

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 19:29

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#241 August

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 21:37

I hit up with this article:

http://www.f1fanatic...ut-safe-part-2/

It's been mentioned in that article that MotoGP circuits must have 12 m verges at breaking points. Clearly Yas Marina doesn't have, so I wonder whether the optimistic comments about modifying Yas Marina into a MotoGP circuit were realistic. I see no way to make Yas Marina capable hosting MotoGP.

#242 johnmhinds

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:37

AFAIK the only corner that would stop a MotoGP race would be the hairpin.

MotoGp could run the layout GP2 Asia used without too much trouble.

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#243 Jovanotti

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:01

I'd really like a banked highspeed corner instead of turns 8/9/10 :drunk:

#244 One

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:07

That's the bad thing of modern F1 circuits. I loved Estoril's old T1 in Grand Prix 2.



The figure of '8' isn't just realistic, it'd need too much work. Otherwise, you seem to have tried to use existing parts of the track as much as possible, but paving is much easier than building a bridge. But, still that layout looks nice, even thogh the loop should be a bit earlier to accommodate a runoff, as well as the hairpin should be a bit earlier also to accommodate a runoff.


BS

The most difficult this WAS to get them on to build this track. Nothing else is harder. The best thing is that The owner wants to take the most out of the track. So for them one bridge is a peanut.

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I have straighten up the bridge. This way the building works disturbs the activity less.

In between the track on the side of Hotel, fill place more in with 4m floor height Bubble formed structure and temporarily use it as Under the roof camping place. Guys from all over the world will come to visit the place, Yas is just close to her Air Port. This thing will be used as garage and indoor carting when there is no event. Music Concert etc.

Next to Paddock build a Box, full of things cheap lodging, offices, leisure etc. This will supply more guys to visit track.


#245 johnmhinds

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:34

They didn't spend £800million on a F1 track in the desert so you could go camping.....

Isn't it assumed that if you can afford the flight out there and the ticket price you can splash out on a decent hotel at least.

#246 Peat

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:41

Nice idea.

Although, you'd need far more run-off at the hairpin on the far left.

#247 chdphd

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 11:23

So the mooted changes weren't done. They are going to wait and see if DRS makes it less shit.

There haven't been any changes to the circuit apart from some very minor kerbing adjustments.


http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/96027

#248 Atreiu

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 11:34

It's crap anyhow.

#249 One

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 12:18

Nice idea.

Although, you'd need far more run-off at the hairpin on the far left.


:up: :up: :up: :up:

FIXED

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I add DIRK RACING track at the vacant plot next to the Yas F1. Could be exciting to see WRC cars racing there like a ROC or truck drag race, moto cross and so on.


hey didn't spend £800million on a F1 track in the desert so you could go camping.....

Isn't it assumed that if you can afford the flight out there and the ticket price you can splash out on a decent hotel at least.


@ johnmhinds

Let us not forget youth and locals... Like other Arab youth and so on... Future is always important and kids often does have less $$ no matter how. Speak about Camping, Transit at the Yas Airport can be an option for those who planned a rich trip elsewhere and take a day or two to go wild, wait for GF to join while watching GP etc... More possibility more guys...


Edited by One, 09 November 2011 - 12:22.


#250 lustigson

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 12:23

How to fix Abu Dhabi?

Has this been mentioned?

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