Jump to content


Photo

Photos of a Grand Prix icon - the Maserati 250F


  • Please log in to reply
426 replies to this topic

#101 raceannouncer2003

raceannouncer2003
  • Member

  • 2,244 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 23 November 2010 - 00:13

Kosmix would have better to use a more authorative source for their story. There are glaring chronological errors in that...


So this webpage is not correct either?

http://www.barchetta...l/2535.250f.htm

One of my Merit models is of a red #15 250F, supposedly 1956. I have thought it might look like Bruce Halford's car from the 1957 German GP (2504?). Does anyone have photos of that car in that race for comparison?

Also, I have a photo, apparently of Peter Collins in a 250F, with #8 on it. Sorry, I am not near my scanner right now. Any idea what race that would have been?

Vince H.


Advertisement

#102 Jerry Entin

Jerry Entin
  • Member

  • 4,685 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 23 November 2010 - 02:12

Vince:
The following is from Willem Oosthoek:

It is incorrect and incomplete. Gordon Pennington was the actual financial force behind the construction of the Tec Mec. Lucky Casner's entry for the first U.S. Grand Prix at Sebring in 1959 was essentially a lease arrangement with Pennington. Casner planned to have Jim Rathmann in the car but when Fred Gamble and Lee Lilley could not get it started in practice and found rusty water after removing the spark plugs, Casner backed out of the deal. So Pennington was back on his own and invited d'Orey to drive it. Perhaps there was ARCF starter money involved, so why not? What is not mentioned is that afterwards the car ended up in the Northeast with Newt Davis, who based on photographic evidence raced it at least once, at Lime Rock. In 1962 Davis entered the car as a Formula Intercontinental in the USAC race at Hilltop in Louisiana, but the combination was a no show.

I talked to Pennington in Florida about a year ago. He was very pleasant and engaging about his stay in Italy in 1959, when the car was constructed. He promised to send me the "complete story on the Tec Mec" but, unfortunately, I never received anything from him. Pennington himself did race a Ferrari 250GT around Florida in the early 60s.

#103 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 23 November 2010 - 07:25

That's much closer to it, Willem and Jerry

Colotti's company was Studio Tecnica Mecanica, and the car project was a commission from driver Giorgio Scarlatti, with journalist Hans Tanner also imvolved. Pennington later bought out Scarlatti's interest and then Colotti's and formed a new company, Automobili Tec-Mec, to complete the car (such as it was)
[Above from Maserati 250F by David McKinney :) ]

I would be intrigued to know what happened to it after Newt Davis's use of it. I use the term "use of" as when the car was later acquired by Tom Wheatcroft here in the UK it was said to have still been resident with Pennington in Florida

#104 Eric Dunsdon

Eric Dunsdon
  • Member

  • 640 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:20

Also, I have a photo, apparently of Peter Collins in a 250F, with #8 on it. Sorry, I am not near my scanner right now. Any idea what race that would have been?


Vince H.

Vince. Are you sure that the driver is Peter Collins?. The reason I ask is that Ken Wharton drove the Owen-Maserati number 8 in the 1954 British Grand Prix. If it is Peter, then it could be from the 1955 London Trophy Race at Crystal Palace (which he won).

#105 Giraffe

Giraffe
  • Member

  • 7,015 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:16

The Joseph Coster owned short-wheelbase Piccolo chassis, the last 250F built at Goodwood in 2009.

Posted Image
By giraffe138 at 2010-11-23

Pictured here are the cars of Stephan & Josef Rettenmaier at Donington Park for the VSCC 'See Red' meeting of 2005. The Maserati invitation race had twelve 250Fs on the entry list plus the TecMec car of Barrie Baxter. Five other 250Fs were listed for demonstration at the meeting.

Posted Image
By giraffe138 at 2010-11-23

#106 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:20

... and it should be on Dunlop disc wheels rather than Borrani wires

#107 Jerry Entin

Jerry Entin
  • Member

  • 4,685 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 23 November 2010 - 13:52

In 1960 journalist Morry Meriam did a brief write-up on mystery man Gordon Pennington in the magazine of the Central Florida Region of the SCCA:

"The 34-year old son of an automotive engineer, Pennington has gone a long way and put a pile of cash into motor racing since he bought his first Ferrari in Europe two years ago. Part of it went to help finance the Colotti-built Tec-Mec Maserati Formula 1 car which d'Orey drove for him in the Grand Prix of the United States last December. Pennington's father, the developer of the vane-type shock absorber, was chairman of the Chrysler Corp. Engineering Improvement Committee for 15 years before his death in 1957.

Pennington was formerly in the construction business in Detroit. He came to Florida in 1956 to recover from injuries as a passenger in an automobile accident and has not been back since except for visits. Between trips to Europe, he and his wife Margaret and young daughter occupy half of a rented duplex furnished with antiques while they think about building.

He has no plans at the moment for further racing.in the United States but intends to be in Monte Carlo May 29 for the opening Grand Prix of Monaco. He had a go with Formula Junior last summer and has ordered an OSCA to drive in the Grand Prix preliminary May 28."

No mention of the ownership status of the Tec-Mec in the article. His Ferrari 250GT finished 6th overall at Sebring earlier in 1960, driven by Bill Sturgis of Nevada and Fritz d'Orey of Brazil. Pennington told me that Sturgis was assigned to his 250GT after they met in practice at Sebring while Sturgis was looking for a ride.

all research: Willem Oosthoek

#108 raceannouncer2003

raceannouncer2003
  • Member

  • 2,244 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 24 November 2010 - 08:55

Vince. Are you sure that the driver is Peter Collins?. The reason I ask is that Ken Wharton drove the Owen-Maserati number 8 in the 1954 British Grand Prix. If it is Peter, then it could be from the 1955 London Trophy Race at Crystal Palace (which he won).


I'll try to scan the photo for you when I get home. Didn't Mike Hawthorn win the 1955 London Trophy?

Vince H.


#109 Eric Dunsdon

Eric Dunsdon
  • Member

  • 640 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 24 November 2010 - 09:42

I'll try to scan the photo for you when I get home. Didn't Mike Hawthorn win the 1955 London Trophy?

Vince H.

Yes indeed. Mike won The London Trophy race at Crystal Palace in July 1955 driving the Moss Maserati. Peter Collins also won a London Trophy Race in the Owen car at an earlier Crystal Palace meeting in May 55. I believe that Peter's race was Formula Libre.

#110 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Member

  • 14,635 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 24 November 2010 - 09:43

Didn't Mike Hawthorn win the 1955 London Trophy?

No, the race he won at Crystal Palace was called the International Trophy. However, the Sheldon Black Book wrongly lists this race as the London Trophy, and this error has proliferated across all the websites that have obviously used Sheldon as their source. As Eric says, the London Trophy was won by Peter Collins.

#111 onelung

onelung
  • Member

  • 546 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 24 November 2010 - 10:20

The Joseph Coster owned short-wheelbase Piccolo chassis, the last 250F built at Goodwood in 2009.

Posted ImagePardon moi - wossat Stanton Special-like red thing inna background ?



#112 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Member

  • 14,635 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 24 November 2010 - 10:35

The Stanton Special-like red thing is the Stanton Special, which appeared at the Goodwood FoS in 2009.

#113 wilco440

wilco440
  • New Member

  • 8 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 24 November 2010 - 11:13

The Stanton Special-like red thing is the Stanton Special, which appeared at the Goodwood FoS in 2009.


Your kidding!

I haven't seen that thing since about 1965.... It left a huge impression on me as a kid watching the Lady Wigram Tasman races back in the day.... who'da thought it could have survived all these years!

Anyone got links to any further info?.....

#114 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Member

  • 14,635 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 24 November 2010 - 11:36

There are some photos, and a bit of discussion, on the Goodwood Festival of Speed 2009 thread, including this one taken by Ensign 14:

Posted Image

Also features strongly in this earlier thread:

Great New Zealand Specials from the ‘40s ‘50s ‘60s and maybe ‘70s

#115 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 7,735 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 24 November 2010 - 18:43

Three more of Barrie Hobkirk's photos to aid with your identification of specific chassis
Posted Image
2533, Long Island, New York 1996, the car driven by Fangio in his last race
Posted Image
2529, Silverstone 1994
Posted Image
2526, Schlumpf Museum 1993

#116 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 10,882 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 24 November 2010 - 22:40

Why does that Schlumpf car look a bit odd?

#117 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 7,257 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 24 November 2010 - 23:36

Why does that Schlumpf car look a bit odd?


I suspect that a fairly powerful flash has illuminated the inside of that trunking down the right side of the car, we're used to seeing a shadow there, or did you have something else in mind? It's about four years since I last visited Schlumpf in Mulhouse, but I'm always impressed by their methods of restoration, they never seem to overdo things. Many of the limousine exhibits are very competently brush painted, just as they would have been in period, in many collections they'd have been sprayed, which just doesn't look right.


#118 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 25 November 2010 - 06:41

Why does that Schlumpf car look a bit odd?

It's one of the 1956 Monza offset cars

#119 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,062 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 25 November 2010 - 17:17

Barrie Hobkirk has sent me a collection of his photos for posting on his behalf. Here are a few to be going on with:

Posted Image
The very distinctively-bodied 2506 Schlumpf Collection 1993

Is that what the car looked like when it raced in Argentina in 1960?

Advertisement

#120 Phil Rainford

Phil Rainford
  • Member

  • 5,290 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 25 November 2010 - 18:01

Posted Image


Gold Cup 2009


PAR

#121 Barrie Hobkirk

Barrie Hobkirk
  • Member

  • 129 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 25 November 2010 - 18:39

Yes Roger, pretty much exactly like this, give or take a few coats of paint, a race number and a driver behind the wheel.
Cheers,
Barrie

#122 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 7,735 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 26 November 2010 - 13:24

Gold Cup 2009

Charles McCabe with CM1. Charles now also owns ERA R5B 'Remus'.

#123 ken devine

ken devine
  • Member

  • 752 posts
  • Joined: August 06

Posted 27 November 2010 - 09:47


I posted this one in the wrong thread.Stan Jones 250F Australian Gp 1957.



URL=http://img16.imageshack.us/i/newimage250fcopy.jpg/]Posted Image[/URL]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us



#124 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 27 November 2010 - 11:28

Just as nice for the second sighting :up:

#125 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 7,735 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 27 November 2010 - 14:33

Some nice period 250F photos on this site - scroll down to see the cars of Arnold Glass, Ross Jensen and Stan Jones
http://aussieroadrac...rvBunyanP3.html
Another lovely Stan Jones pic towards the bottom of the page
http://aussieroadrac...ervBunyan5.html

#126 driverider

driverider
  • Member

  • 179 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 28 November 2010 - 01:15

The 'streamliner' appeared in Behra's hands at Monza in 1955, and again in practice at Rheims in 1956, albeit with different bodywork

The 250F that was "heavily" modified to become a Tec-Mec was a standard car with Chevrolet V8 engine

The F1 Tec-Mec, on the other hand, was not based on a 250F at all, but a new design from an independent company (though with 250F engine)

I dismiss it from the 250F canon for the same reason I had a (friendly) go at Barry for posting a picture of one of the 250F-engined 1953 A6GCMs

But I include Barry's second posting, of a V12 250F :)



The Tec Mec was on the drawing board at the factory according to Valerio Colloti - on which basis it would appear to have been reasonably based on a 250F


#127 driverider

driverider
  • Member

  • 179 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 28 November 2010 - 01:30

Vince:
The following is from Willem Oosthoek:

It is incorrect and incomplete. Gordon Pennington was the actual financial force behind the construction of the Tec Mec. Lucky Casner's entry for the first U.S. Grand Prix at Sebring in 1959 was essentially a lease arrangement with Pennington. Casner planned to have Jim Rathmann in the car but when Fred Gamble and Lee Lilley could not get it started in practice and found rusty water after removing the spark plugs, Casner backed out of the deal. So Pennington was back on his own and invited d'Orey to drive it. Perhaps there was ARCF starter money involved, so why not? What is not mentioned is that afterwards the car ended up in the Northeast with Newt Davis, who based on photographic evidence raced it at least once, at Lime Rock. In 1962 Davis entered the car as a Formula Intercontinental in the USAC race at Hilltop in Louisiana, but the combination was a no show.

I talked to Pennington in Florida about a year ago. He was very pleasant and engaging about his stay in Italy in 1959, when the car was constructed. He promised to send me the "complete story on the Tec Mec" but, unfortunately, I never received anything from him. Pennington himself did race a Ferrari 250GT around Florida in the early 60s.


Jerry, it would be fascinating to hear the Pennington perspective on the Tec Mec. I had the utter pleasure of spending several days with Mr Colotti hearing about the 250F development through to looking at the design, development and build of the Tec Mec. Please let me know if Mr Pennington follows up - it would be terrific to match that perspective to that of Colotti

#128 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 28 November 2010 - 07:08

The Tec Mec was on the drawing board at the factory according to Valerio Colloti - on which basis it would appear to have been reasonably based on a 250F

Semantics, Barrie :)

"Based on" to me means someone took a 250F, and modified it into what became the Tec-Mec

As you correctly say (and as stated in my book), work had started at the factory on a replacement for the 1958 Piccolo when the racing department was closed. How much of the design work was completed I don't know - there was a suggestion the car was planned to be rear-engined

Perhaps your discussions with Colotti elucidated that point?

#129 Lola5000

Lola5000
  • Member

  • 1,178 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 28 November 2010 - 07:22

any period photos of the Stan Jones car in the early 60s when he ran it at Sandown?

#130 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 28 November 2010 - 09:20

I think one's been posted - have you tried a search?

#131 Lola5000

Lola5000
  • Member

  • 1,178 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 28 November 2010 - 10:17

I think one's been posted - have you tried a search?

There was a photo of it running in a very early historic meeting,old Stan in black T/shirt in Autosportsman?

#132 ken devine

ken devine
  • Member

  • 752 posts
  • Joined: August 06

Posted 28 November 2010 - 11:12

Another excellent shot of Stan working hard in the 1957 Australian GP at Caversham Western Australia.



URL=http://img715.imageshack.us/i/mypictures0117copy.jpg/]Posted Image[/URL]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us





#133 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 5,730 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 28 November 2010 - 11:24

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Alberique at the Wheel.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Embarrassingly my entire 250 F picture library :-)

#134 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 28 November 2010 - 13:24

Alberique at the Wheel.

Any relation to Albuquerque?


#135 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 5,730 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 28 November 2010 - 13:57

Any relation to Albuquerque?


Alberqurique my copy and paste error David :blush:

#136 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Member

  • 14,635 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 28 November 2010 - 14:20

Alberqurique my copy and paste error David :blush:

You're still perpetuating Cyril's original misspelling, Ralph. As David says, it's ALBUQUERQUE. :)

#137 arttidesco

arttidesco
  • Member

  • 5,730 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 28 November 2010 - 14:23

You're still perpetuating Cyril's original misspelling, Ralph. As David says, it's ALBUQUERQUE. :)


Doh ! I'll go and flog myself out in the garden for the next 1/2 an hour ! :blush: :blush: :blush:

#138 driverider

driverider
  • Member

  • 179 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 28 November 2010 - 16:08

Semantics, Barrie :)

"Based on" to me means someone took a 250F, and modified it into what became the Tec-Mec

As you correctly say (and as stated in my book), work had started at the factory on a replacement for the 1958 Piccolo when the racing department was closed. How much of the design work was completed I don't know - there was a suggestion the car was planned to be rear-engined

Perhaps your discussions with Colotti elucidated that point?



He did -but the TecMec design was that development - Jenks also held that position - I would tend to trust the people there and involved at the time - although there is sometimes a tint of rose to temper

'semantics' is an unfortunate accusation - engine and drive train is a reasonable base - please also note the 'birdcage' like smaller tube thinking employed as explained by VC






#139 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 7,257 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 28 November 2010 - 17:36

You're still perpetuating Cyril's original misspelling, Ralph. As David says, it's ALBUQUERQUE. :)


...who must be quite some driver, he's just beaten three times winner Sebastien Loeb in the RoC final in Düsseldorf.

Advertisement

#140 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 28 November 2010 - 20:22

That would no doubt have been the 250F driver's son :)

#141 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 7,257 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 28 November 2010 - 20:40

That would no doubt have been the 250F driver's son :)


That surname is obviously less uncommon than I thought it was.


#142 cyrilmac

cyrilmac
  • Member

  • 433 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 28 November 2010 - 20:46

Me toe?
Spelling has always been an approximation or there abouts.
If you;re not careful l'll try colour again!

#143 simonlewisbooks

simonlewisbooks
  • Member

  • 2,118 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 28 November 2010 - 23:05

A couple of fairly unusual ones....

Ascari, Silverstone 1954 British GP
Posted Image

Onofre Marimon passing Leslie Marr's Connaught, same event.
Posted Image

And rather more familiar....
Salvadori, Oulton Gold cup, same year
Posted Image

All copyright 2010 Simon Lewis Transport Books

#144 Eric Dunsdon

Eric Dunsdon
  • Member

  • 640 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:19

A couple of fairly unusual ones....

Ascari, Silverstone 1954 British GP
Posted Image

Onofre Marimon passing Leslie Marr's Connaught, same event.
Posted Image

And rather more familiar....
Salvadori, Oulton Gold cup, same year
Posted Image

All copyright 2010 Simon Lewis Transport Books

Lovely period photos Simon, thank you, they've quite made my day. You wouldnt think that there were a reputed 100.000 of us at Silverstone that day though!. :cool:

#145 driverider

driverider
  • Member

  • 179 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 29 November 2010 - 18:15

Lovely period photos Simon, thank you, they've quite made my day. You wouldnt think that there were a reputed 100.000 of us at Silverstone that day though!. :cool:


Simon - lovely photos - Salvadori drifting in to Old Hall is special!

better an offline conversation but do you have or know of any photos of Maserati 151 from LeMans 64 or practice 65

#146 Bauble

Bauble
  • Member

  • 1,040 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 29 November 2010 - 20:07

Simon - lovely photos - Salvadori drifting in to Old Hall is special!

better an offline conversation but do you have or know of any photos of Maserati 151 from LeMans 64 or practice 65


Barrie,
That is NOT a 'drift'!!!

Read Jenks book on the racing driver to get an explanation.

Regards,

#147 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,112 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 29 November 2010 - 20:52

Barrie,
That is NOT a 'drift'!!!

Read Jenks book on the racing driver to get an explanation.

Regards,

Why not? All four wheels are parallel and the car is pointing into the corner. Surely that makes it a classic 4-wheel drift. Admittedly not what the younger generation describe as "drifting" - whatever that may be.

#148 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 4,616 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 29 November 2010 - 20:56

Barrie,
That is NOT a 'drift'!!!
regards,

And, unless I am mistaken, it is not Old Hall either, but Lodge Corner, with the eponymous building in the rearground, Old Hall being the rt hander after the start leading to the Avenue and Cascades. I would love to have seen Salvadori's way of tackling that very difficult corner, Lodge.
Roger Lund


#149 onelung

onelung
  • Member

  • 546 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 29 November 2010 - 22:14

Barrie,
That is NOT a 'drift'!!!

Read Jenks book on the racing driver to get an explanation.

Regards,


Slide, drift - is it that important? (casts anorak aside...)
If the phrase "4 wheel drift" comes to my mind - it is forever linked to these images, whether or not all 4 wheels are parallel.
Posted Image[Posted ImageTruly, the maestro.

#150 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,062 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 30 November 2010 - 15:03

This may be an appropriate time and place to ask a question that has long vexed me, concerning 250F wheelbases.

The usually quoted length is 2280mm. This is quoted in Denis Jenkinson's book. All editions of the Racing Car Review during the period quote 7ft 6ins. In Doug Nye's History of the Grand Prix car he says that in the later cars, two wheelbases were available, 2280mm and 2200mm. He doesn't say which year he is referring to but he says that Fangio preferred the long car and Behra the short, so I think we can assume 1957 and the Tipo 2 works lightweights.

David McKinney mentions none of this (unless I missed it) but he does say that the 1958 Piccolo was 76mm shorter than the 1957 cars. Is that the LWB or SWB 1957 cars?

Karl Ludvigsen, in Classic Grand Prix Cars, quotes wheelbases in inches: 89.8 (2280mm) for a 1954 car, 87.6 (2225mm) in 1957, and 90.6 (2301mm)for a V12. I used 2.54 cms:inch.

For what it's worth, Setright's The Grand Prix Car quotes 90inches for both 1954 and '57 cars.

There seems to be some consensus around 2280mm/90ins for most cars, but some confusion around the 1957/58 cars. Can anybody help?

I know these were Maseratis so I'm not expecting a simple answer.