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Photos of a Grand Prix icon - the Maserati 250F


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#251 Roger Clark

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 21:51

The 4CLT had 4 cylinders hence the designation. It was the way Maserati named their cars, eg the 8CTF had an 8 cylinder engine

But eight exhaust pipes.

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#252 sbrinley

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 21:52

Phil Cade had an 8CL Maserati (two 4CL engines end to end) but he sold it long before 1960



Well, the Maser in Weaver's barn had an engine that looked like 2 four-cylinder engines placed end-to-end.

#253 Barry Boor

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 22:29

How many cylinders did the 250.F have then? :eek:

#254 D-Type

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 22:35

According to recent logic, it must be 12 - ie 2 six-cylinder engines placed end to end :lol:


(Seriously now, come to think of it, has anybody ever made a straight 12?)

Edited by D-Type, 04 May 2011 - 22:47.


#255 Roger Clark

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 23:16

According to recent logic, it must be 12 - ie 2 six-cylinder engines placed end to end :lol:


(Seriously now, come to think of it, has anybody ever made a straight 12?)

Voisin.

#256 Pedro 917

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 16:07

Fangio's 250F 2529 at the 2007 Nürburgring Oldtimer GP :

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#257 Alan Cox

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 14:44

Just collating a few that have appeared elsewhere on TNF over the years.
Spa 1992
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Jeremy Agace's
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Nigel Corner's
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Oulton Park 1974 - Ray Fielding leads Alan Cottam
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#258 Giraffe

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 15:20

This photo which requires no introduction is from the collection of Ron Bennett. Ron rebuilt this car for Willie Green and tells me that he also spent an afternoon driving this famous 250F at JC Bamford's test track!

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By giraffe138 at 2011-05-26

#259 bill p

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 15:33

According to recent logic, it must be 12 - ie 2 six-cylinder engines placed end to end :lol:


(Seriously now, come to think of it, has anybody ever made a straight 12?)


Voisin
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Packard
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#260 Alan Cox

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 17:12

This photo which requires no introduction is from the collection of Ron Bennett. Ron rebuilt this car for Willie Green and tells me that he also spent an afternoon driving this famous 250F at JC Bamford's test track!

Are you sure? The car pictured is 2529 at the 1957 British GP. It was the car with which Fangio won at Rouen and the Nurburgring, and for many years was in the Cunningham Museum before being bought by Hartmut Ibing in 1988. I don't remember Willie Green, or Anthony Bamford, owning it. However, I stand to be corrected.

#261 Giraffe

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 17:20

Are you sure? The car pictured is 2529 at the 1957 British GP. It was the car with which Fangio won at Rouen and the Nurburgring, and for many years was in the Cunningham Museum before being bought by Hartmut Ibing in 1988. I don't remember Willie Green, or Anthony Bamford, owning it. However, I stand to be corrected.


I am only repeating what Ron Bennett told me in a telephone call today when I called him up to ask him about the photo from his personal albums. I stand to be correct also.


#262 David McKinney

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 19:11

Anthony Bamford owned many 250Fs at one time or another, but never this or any other 1957 lightweight

Willie Green did however race 2529 when owned by Hartmut Ibing, and could well have used the Bamford test-track to set it up

#263 Doug Nye

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 10:34

'Sfunny what you find from time to time - just unearthed this photo dated October 12, 1955. It shows Maserati 250F chassis frame '2513' standing in one of Vandervell Products' workshops, having just been weighed-in at 127lbs 'as is'...

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Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 10 September 2011 - 13:24.


#264 David McKinney

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 10:52

I'd still love to know exactly what else they got with it - it certainly seems to have all the bracketing to take engine, transaxle, tankage...

#265 mike faloon

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 11:00

'Sfunny what you find from time to time - just unearthed this photo dated October 12, 1955. It shows Maserati 250F chassis frame '2513' standing in one of their workshops, having just been weighed-in at 127lbs 'as is'...

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Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN


In Pedro 917's posting #256 extra bracing is shown in the cockpit of 2529 which does not appear in DCN's photograph of 2513, is that a product of two year's Factory development? or is 2513 waiting for a little more work?

#266 Tim Murray

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 11:48

I'm surprised that Maserati would have weighed things in pounds, not kilograms.

#267 Michael Ferner

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 13:06

It's Vanwall, not Maserati. :)

#268 David McKinney

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 14:38

To put it more clearly, 2513 was the 250F supplied to Vandervell Engineering for evaluation purposes before they built their own F1 cars. Primary sources are not clear as to whether it was a plain frame (as in the photograph) or a rolling chassis. Either way, it was not completed and racing until the 1970s

#269 MCS

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 15:15

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Look at the condition of the track! It was worse still around Island and, in particular, Esso - one of the "hidden" reasons for the circuit's shortening in 1975.

Still, back on topic as it were, what a great thread - some lovely pictures. :wave:


#270 Doug Nye

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 15:32

Sorry pardon - I should have made it clear the above photograph of '2513' was taken in Vandervell products' Acton factory.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 31 July 2011 - 15:32.


#271 kayemod

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 16:37

Sorry pardon - I should have made it clear the above photograph of '2513' was taken in Vandervell products' Acton factory.

DCN


Up on bricks like that, it could have been taken almost anywhere in Liverpool.


#272 David Birchall

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 16:43

That appears to be a dynomometer in the rear of that room.
I thought at first that the chassis looked very good for 1955 and then I realised there was no triangulation in the cockpit area-Chapman would not have been impressed!
Nice piece of workmanship though.


#273 Alan Cox

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 17:49

Historic racing at its best..
Willie Green heads John Harper and Rod Jolley
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#274 Barry Boor

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 18:43

I know I'm a picky old anorak but who put that nose on the Vanwall? It looks all wrong to me.

#275 David McKinney

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 19:17

OT: The then-owner of the Vanwall now has his own F1 team :)

#276 Alan Cox

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 20:24

OT: The then-owner of the Vanwall now has his own F1 team :)

And used to turn up at VSCC meetings with, amongst other vehicles, the original Sunbeam Tiger and a Bugatti Type 18.

#277 Doug Nye

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 21:38

Anyone else fancy a Ruby and Kingfisher?

DCN

#278 bradbury west

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 23:19

'Sfunny what you find from time to time - just unearthed this photo dated October 12, 1955. It shows Maserati 250F chassis frame '2513' standing in one of their workshops, having just been weighed-in at 127lbs 'as is'...
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Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library DCN


Presumably the Maserati chassis was weighed as a comparison for their own Cooper-developed 1955 Vanwall frame, which was tagged at 194lbs. QV the picture on p267 of History of the Grand prix car 1945 to 1965.
Roger Lund

#279 Alan Cox

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 12:44

Two more, this time from VSCC Donington, 21st September 1991
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John Harper with 2516, when owned by Anthony Mayman
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Robin Lodge with his own 2507 (B)

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#280 Repco22

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 14:44

Two more, this time from VSCC Donington, 21st September 1991
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John Harper with 2516, when owned by Anthony Mayman

Bob Weaver, who sold the ex Ascari Ferrari 500-625 for peanuts back in the sixties, tells how Perth racing car trader of that time, Jim Harwood, invited him to the Fremantle docks to view his current deal. Down in the hold of a freighter they peered through the cracks in a crate, and there sat 2516, the Hunt, Stillwell, Glass car. Probably worth similar money--maybe a couple of grand. "So what?", you say. Well it was only the second opportunity [albeit briefly], to see a 250F in Western Australia where backyard specials largely prevailed. It's interesting how the Stillwell-ordered upgrade to '57 speci's differed from others. The flared carbie scoop is so unusual while the high cockpit sides were effected with less pleasing style than some. The division between the new-style front and the old '56 tail is glaringly obvious on this one when compared to a genuine "lightweight" with shapely tail.

#281 Alan Cox

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 15:05

An interesting story, Rod, which highlights the curiosities in this particular body style.

#282 David McKinney

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 16:24

It's interesting how the Stillwell-ordered upgrade to '57 speci's differed from others

...partly, at least, because it's a '58 upgrade :lol:

Bib had it built by Fantuzzi along the lines of that year's Piccolo models


#283 john medley

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 21:31

David McK, do you know if the upgrades to chassis and body were done at the same time and by the same people? I have heard a story different.....

#284 David McKinney

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 21:57

AFAIK, no work of much importance was done when the car returned to the factory in 1957. It was however updated with bigger brakes during its 1958 visit, during which time the Fantuzzi body was fitted

Are we at cross purposes?



#285 john medley

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 22:35

I was led to believe by the doer of the work that chassis mods were made in Australia just prior to sale to Arnold Glass

#286 David McKinney

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 05:39

Possible - don't think I'd heard that, and don't know what they might have been

Edited by David McKinney, 08 August 2011 - 05:39.


#287 Repco22

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 09:25

...partly, at least, because it's a '58 upgrade :lol:

Bib had it built by Fantuzzi along the lines of that year's Piccolo models

"I must think twice before I hit 'submit post', I must think twice before...." ad infinitum!
David, you're not often wrong but you're right this time!
I have to admit I'd forgotten about the Piccolo upgrade. The scoop should have reminded me. Another Senior Moment!
With regard to upgraded fronts and old-style tails-- and this may have been mentioned before-- A major model-making firm produced a big-scale 250F model [maybe 1-12], said to be the '57 Fangio German GP car, complete with yellow nose patch but they obviously used an upgraded car for reference as it has the '54-56 type tail and higher cockpit sides than a '57 "lightweight".

#288 David McKinney

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 11:50

Yes, I've got a Polistil model that fits that decription

#289 Barrie Hobkirk

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 16:30

And so the plot thickens.

Fangio did drive this car (2516), complete with yellow nose, as part of a documentary on himself.
The track footage filming of the documentary took place at both Silverstone and the Nurburgring.
Exept it was 1970 and not 1957.
The car was provided courtesy of Cameron Millar.
Perhaps that is how the Polistil model copy came about.

#290 ZOOOM

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 17:24

Photos of Lucky Castner's 250 at Meadowdale after the accident with Loyal Katske's Ferrari.
Duntov was driving.
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ZOOOM

#291 Alan Cox

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 13:08

A wet day at Oulton Park for the Historic Gold Cup, 27th September 1981. Richard Bond driving Dan Margulies' 250F (I believe it is CM3) through the puddles.
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#292 ZOOOM

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 19:54

More of Lucky Castners 250F at the Formula Libre race at Meadowdale raceway, Carpentersville Il, 1959
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Loyal Katske and Zora Duntov had just had an accident at the top of the "uphill".
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Katske's Ferrari being pushed off the track after the incident.
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Katske and Duntov explaining to each other, what had just happened.
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The Ferrari was hours du Combat, the Masser looked ok but Duntov really didn't want to continue...

All pictures taken with a Brownie Starflash by a 14 year old boy... 52 years ago...

I know him well....
ZOOOM

Edited by ZOOOM, 29 September 2011 - 19:56.


#293 sandy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:59

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Watching whoever this was effortlessly winning at Silverstone in the mid 80s this was the sort of image that sprung to mind when reading DSJ - when someone was "really pressing on." .

Edited by sandy, 21 March 2012 - 09:10.


#294 Alan Cox

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:19

Watching whoever this was effortlessly winning at Silverstone in the mid 80s this was the sort of image that sprung to mind when reading DSJ - when someone was "really pressing on." .

That's 250F 'maestro' Willie Green racing the '57 Nürburgring winner '2529', when owned by Hartmut Ibing, Sandy

#295 sandy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:54

Thanks Alan. He certainly was quite special on that day at least. He was well out in front but never eased off. He would come out of the corner where we were sitting, he seemingly in all sorts of a tangle then with a split second little twitch of the wheel everything straightened up and fell into place and he just disappeared down the straight.

Edited by sandy, 21 March 2012 - 19:40.


#296 David Birchall

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 18:09

Any more photos of them with their clothes off?
Sorry, I'm funny that way...

#297 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 18:29

Can only offer this partially stripped one without it´s top...
Shot last year at Solitude Revival.

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#298 Alan Cox

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:29

Sorting through some negatives from 1989/1990...
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Robin Lodge 2507 Oulton Park AMOC October 1990
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Ludovic Lindsay CM7 VSCC Silverstone April 1990
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Jeffrey Pattinson 2508 VSCC Silverstone April 1990

#299 Charles Helps

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 13:16

That appears to be a dynomometer in the rear of that room.
I thought at first that the chassis looked very good for 1955 and then I realised there was no triangulation in the cockpit area-Chapman would not have been impressed!
Nice piece of workmanship though.

OT and very late as well but you have to be careful about Chapman's Lotus and triangulation in the cockpit area. That area wasn't triangulated on the production Lotus Mark VI chassis first made in 1952 until around its final year of production in 1955. There is a certain weight saving from omitting those two diagonal tubes...


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#300 Alan Cox

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 20:29

A few more from 1990
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Nick Mason on board 2530

A couple of shots of the much-raced 2516 which was shared around ERA owners/drivers by then-owner, Anthony Mayman
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Duncan Ricketts at Silverstone
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Bill Morris at Donington