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Photos of a Grand Prix icon - the Maserati 250F


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#301 David McKinney

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 21:58

Others to be thus honoured were Martin Morris, Bruce Spollon and Sir John Venables-Llewelyn

To which could be added Willie Green, John Harper and Chris Mayman who, whilst not known primarily as ERA drivers, did race examples thereof

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#302 Alan Cox

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 17:26

Silverstone 17th April 1982
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The Hon Amschel Rothschild with 2507 (painted blue at the time)

#303 Barry Boor

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 18:55

Painted blue? Why, pray?

#304 Alan Cox

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 19:09

I've no idea who chose blue but in those days in historic racing folks were nothing like as concerned as they are today about replicating original liveries. Not sure who first painted it that colour, but it was blue throughout Rothschild's and Chris Mann's ownerships as far as I am aware. Maybe David knows.

#305 David McKinney

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 21:36

Pretty sure it was dark blue for that 10-year(ish) period - perhaps the colour meant something to the Rothschilds, though of course he didn't do that to his BRM P25 (or T25 if Doug's listening...)

The Maserati was red when Hon Amschel bought it, having been dark green originally, and reverted to dark green when Robin Lodge took it over in 1988

Cameron Millar had a light blue 250F about the same time

#306 JoBo

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 22:10

Pretty sure it was dark blue for that 10-year(ish) period - perhaps the colour meant something to the Rothschilds, though of course he didn't do that to his BRM P25 (or T25 if Doug's listening...)

The Maserati was red when Hon Amschel bought it, having been dark green originally, and reverted to dark green when Robin Lodge took it over in 1988

Cameron Millar had a light blue 250F about the same time


2507 just went to a new owner. A fantastc car!

JoBo

Edited by JoBo, 26 April 2012 - 22:10.


#307 Alan Cox

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:20

2507 just went to a new owner. A fantastc car!

One of my two favourites, along with the Corner family's 2528

#308 kayemod

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 10:53

Show off!

#309 Repco22

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:01

Posted Image

2528

What went wrong there Tony? Did you run out of red paint?

#310 Dutchy

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:13

Pretty sure it was dark blue for that 10-year(ish) period - perhaps the colour meant something to the Rothschilds, though of course he didn't do that to his BRM P25 (or T25 if Doug's listening...)

The Maserati was red when Hon Amschel bought it, having been dark green originally, and reverted to dark green when Robin Lodge took it over in 1988

Cameron Millar had a light blue 250F about the same time


I thought it was dark blue when Chris Mann had it. It was he who liberated it from a museum in Portugal IIRC.

Wasn't Cameron Millar's light blue car 2516?

#311 Alan Cox

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:28

I thought it was dark blue when Chris Mann had it. It was he who liberated it from a museum in Portugal IIRC.

It was, as I noted above in post #304. Did Chris Mann own it twice then, as he certainly owned it post-Rothschild?
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#312 David McKinney

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:50

I thought it was dark blue when Chris Mann had it. It was he who liberated it from a museum in Portugal IIRC.

It was Cameron Millar who brought it back from Portugal in 1976, but didn't race it, selling it instead to Amschel Rothschild. Millar already had enough 250Fs of his own, including 2523, which was the light blue one, and 2516.

Chris Mann bought 2507 from Rothschild in 1985

Lovely rendition of 2528, BTW, Tony :up:

#313 Sharman

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:46

Did any of the French Privateers paint them blue in period?

#314 Barry Boor

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:47

Rosier certainly did.

#315 Sharman

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:51

Rosier certainly did.

Bloody hell Barry you were quick, I was just going back to edit to say like Rosier for example, which would have answered your "Why pray?"

#316 GIGLEUX

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 15:34

Did any of the French Privateers paint them blue in period?

Simon too

#317 David McKinney

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 15:52

Millar's light blue 250F was not ex-France. It had been that colour in NZ (where there were also red, green, black and grey examples)

#318 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 21:40

Did any of the French Privateers paint them blue in period?


We visited Cite de l'Automobile in Mulhouse on Tuesday. No blue ones there. However, which 250Fs do they have? Is one of them a Rosier 250F?

Vince H.


#319 Alan Cox

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 22:06

Might I commend Messrs McKinney and Hobkirk's highly affordable tome "Maserati 250F" (Crowood) with its chassis listing and ownership histories (as of 2003), Vince, if you don't already have it at home. This confirms 2506 (latterly 2511) and 2526/2530 as the Mulhouse cars. 2506 being ex-Rosier.

Edited by Alan Cox, 28 April 2012 - 11:44.


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#320 Allan Lupton

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 13:33

David and I have privately discussed some of the claims made for CM4 which would be fully documented in the above-mentioned book

#321 Alan Cox

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 18:43

25th June 1988, VSCC Silverstone, and Charlie Lucas back in a 250F - guesting in the Corner's car (2528) which Charles had previously owned. Possibly the last outing of the great man in a 250F - unless you know different
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Dicing with Bobby Bell (2526)

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Bobby Bell and Gerry Walton (Connaught)

#322 David McKinney

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 20:18

Possibly the last outing of the great man in a 250F - unless you know different

I believe he raced the same car in an event supporting the Italian GP at Monza on 9/9/89 (or, if you're American, 9/9/89) ;)


#323 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 21:03

I am not sure if it was this day or not that when interviewed on the start line he was asked what it was like to be driving the 250F again, (Edit. no, it was the VSCC Maserati only race that Cameron Millar organised, the tacho broke in the 450S)

"As the bishop said to the actress, it's nice to be back in the old girl again" was his reply!


I happened to be there when he sold the car to Corner, at the time I thought it was an absolute fortune, now of course it wouldn't buy two wheels for a BMW.

Edited by Andrew Fellowes, 07 September 2012 - 21:32.


#324 Lola5000

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 22:42

As an Australian in his 20s in the late 70s and 80s,reading about Corner,Lucas,Green and the others racing there 250fs was the highlight of my motor racing enjoyment............please more photos of this special time.

#325 David McKinney

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 05:56

.... while I was the same, on the other side of the Tasman Sea :)

#326 Lola5000

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:39

.... while I was the same, on the other side of the Tasman Sea :)

A good friend does Demo's in CM 250F here in Melbourne,what a fab car.

#327 Belmondo

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:48

Wonderful photos Alan.

#328 Alan Cox

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 10:08

............please more photos of this special time.

I'll see what I can do :) PS Thank you, Belmondo
Meanwhile, on the 17th July 1988, the VSCC were at Oulton Park:
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Robin Lodge was having a very early outing with his ex-Gilby car, aided by Tony Merrick in a pushing role.
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Steve Griswold with the V12 - plenty of ground clearance in evidence here
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Rodney Felton with Mayman's #2516

#329 Lola5000

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:50

Alan,any Neil Corner shots? :up:

#330 Alan Cox

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 13:59

Here are some of Neil from the very early '70s (I think). As you can tell, I hadn't sussed out much about photography back then, so these efforts with a humble Zorki 4 are the best I can offer of the great Corner/250F combination
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There are also some better ones of Neil in the very first post on this thread.

Edited by Alan Cox, 08 September 2012 - 20:08.


#331 Lola5000

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:35

Must have been great years in historics in the UK then,with all the various class's running and the cars and the drivers.More freedom to look at the cars,chat to the drivers/owners?

#332 Lola5000

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:37

Alan any photos of the ex Stan Jones car?

#333 David McKinney

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:59

I know he has, because I've seen it :)
I think it was black & white

#334 Belmondo

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 22:34

Anyone know what became of the V12?

#335 David McKinney

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 05:19

There were actually three V12s, though all were re-engined, the first two with six-cylinder 250F engines. One of these raced in Europe in 1958 and is now doing so again, while the second went to Brazil but came back to Europe and has been raced by Nick Mason for the past 30 years.

The third V12 also went to Brazil, less engine, a Chevrolet V8 being fitted instead. It too has been racing in Europe, with Maserati V12 engine, since 1987.

#336 Lola5000

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 06:21

I know he has, because I've seen it :)
I think it was black & white

and as we all know its an easy car to place.

#337 Alan Cox

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:45

I don't recall Robert Brooks driving a 250F very often. Here he is at Donington in 1996 with CM6 owned at the time, I think, by John Coombs.
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The tail profile on this car never looked quite right to me.

#338 David McKinney

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:54

Yes, owned by Coombs

Also driven by S Moss the following year at Basildon (demo) and Silverstone (race)

#339 Lola5000

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 10:08

Yes, owned by Coombs

Also driven by S Moss the following year at Basildon (demo) and Silverstone (race)

looks like a VHRR logo on the side flank,from memory it ran at a VHRR historic meeting,funny how today they will not let a CM car run at there meeting in open racing.

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#340 Barry Boor

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 10:28

The tail profile on this car never looked quite right to me.


Me neither - but quite pretty for all that.

#341 David McKinney

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:41

looks like a VHRR logo on the side flank,from memory it ran at a VHRR historic meeting,funny how today they will not let a CM car run at there meeting in open racing.

It was demonstrated at the 1996 AGP but I believe did race at Phillip Island a week later

The first eight CM cars were given permission to race (in Europe) but not the last two - one of which resides in Australia - on the grounds that they had very little original componentry. In contrast to the first cars


#342 Lola5000

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:55

It was demonstrated at the 1996 AGP but I believe did race at Phillip Island a week later

The first eight CM cars were given permission to race (in Europe) but not the last two - one of which resides in Australia - on the grounds that they had very little original componentry. In contrast to the first cars

Thankyou David,thats makes sense then.

#343 rudi

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:10

It was demonstrated at the 1996 AGP but I believe did race at Phillip Island a week later

The first eight CM cars were given permission to race (in Europe) but not the last two - one of which resides in Australia - on the grounds that they had very little original componentry. In contrast to the first cars


Of course now time has done its work and some CM cars have lost their CM identity and are "original" cars.

#344 Barry Boor

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:19

Really?

#345 Allan Lupton

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 21:45

Of course now time has done its work and some CM cars have lost their CM identity and are "original" cars.

CM4 was having a better history added about a year ago, but I think I see it was sold at Monaco for a more normal price than last year's owner was talking it up to . . .
ETA I now see that it was bid to a normal price but not sold. Needs a bit more history perhaps . .

Edited by Allan Lupton, 09 September 2012 - 22:09.


#346 David McKinney

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 21:58

For many years owners of that car swore it was 2505, based presumably on the engine number, and got quite heated if challenged.

The real 2505 was elsewhere all along :)

#347 Doug Nye

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 22:25

We took that CM car that Robert drove at Donington down to the first Australian GP at Melbourne for Stirling to drive in the pre-race demo. It was in the display marquee there at Albert Park when a couple of CAMS scrutineers arrived. They began by giving me a bollocking because the car had not been presented to scrutineering on time. This surprised me because it was only running there in a demo. I was told curtly that "safety applies everywhere mate". They then examined the car and recoiled in what I can only describe as frenzied horror when they saw in its cockpit a fire extinguisher bottle.

This, to them, was no ordinary extinguisher bottle.

It was A Green extinguisher bottle.

I received another bollocking for that.

I then discovered it should have been A Red extinguisher bottle.

Helpfully, I offered to paint it for them whatever colour they cared to specify. I would even get them a colour chart.

At this they simply detonated...

I then reminded them that we had brought the car 12,000 miles for SCM to demonstrate upon the scene of his 1956 success in a broadly similar vehicle. And if they now intended to ban it from running on such petty grounds it was up to them to explain the reasons why a) to the race organisers, b) to the crowd and c) to SCM himself...

And that's how the fight started, your Honour...

I have suffered from a lifelong reflex detestation for braindead authority. I'd been exposed to endless tales from Jack Brabham and Frank Gardner about CAMS' tiny-mindedness. And on that sunny day in Melbourne when this occurred all these factors coincided. So that Millar Maserati rides quite high in my memory...

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 09 September 2012 - 22:27.


#348 Robin Fairservice

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 02:35

You should have asked them if they had scrutineered the Pace Car. I expect that that did more laps than SCM.

Edited by Robin Fairservice, 10 September 2012 - 02:35.


#349 Catalina Park

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:29

I'd been exposed to endless tales from Jack Brabham and Frank Gardner about CAMS' tiny-mindedness.

Jack and Frank had it easy, they managed to escape. We had to deal with these sort of clowns every weekend for years on end.


#350 Alan Cox

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:59

And that's how the fight started, your Honour...

Lovely story, beautifully told, Doug. Thanks for relating it. Sort of blows apart the understanding that we have in the northern hemisphere that all Antipodeans are exceedingly laid-back and happy to let you kill yourself if that's what you want to do.