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Vettel as good as Senna, says Ascanelli


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#451 Winter98

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 00:19

I appreciate your words, even if our perception or feeling differs. An answer like yours is a good example of how cultivated and well-meaning this forum could be for all of us. :up:


Thank you.

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#452 Kyo

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:50

I decided to do an overview of both drivers careers but only going till Senna's 101st Grand Prix.

Senna first time driving a Formula car was in 1981 with 20yo.
Highlights
British Formula 3 champion 1983.
Winner of the Macau Formula 3 Grand Prix 1983.
British Formula Ford 2000 champion 1982.
European Formula Ford 2000 champion 1982.
Winner of the Celebrity Formula Ford 2000 race 1982.
British RAC Formula Ford 1600 champion 1981.
British Townsend Thorsesen Formula Ford 1600 champion 1981.
In 3 years he did 67 races with 49 wins, 59 podiums and 32 pole positions

Vettel first time driving a Formula car was in 2003 with 15yo
Highlights
Was leading World Series by Renault when he left to race F1 in 2007
Second in Formula 3 Euro Series 2006.
Third in Formula 3 Macau GP 2005.
German Formula BMW champion 2004.
Second in Formula BMW ADAC 2003.
In 4.5 years he did 94 races with 29 wins, 54 podiums and 22 pole positions.

Senna F1 career
started in 1984 with 24yo and in his 101 first gps he had
1 WDC
23 wins
47 podiums
46 pole positions
11 retirements duo to contact with other drivers or their own mistakes
30 retirements duo to other reasons like mechanical failures, DSQ, etc.
33-8 (80%) Score against teammate when both finished a race .
86-10 (90%) Score against teammate in qualifying.
Teammates ( Cecotto, Johansson, de Angelis, Dumfries, Nakajima, Prost, Berger)
Teams ( Toleman 15 races, Lotus 48 races, McLaren 38 races)


Vettel F1 career started in 2007 with 19yo and till now he has 101 gps
3 WDC
26 wins
46 podiums
36 pole positions
09 retirements duo to contact with other drivers or their own mistakes
11 retirements duo to other reasons like mechanical failures, DSQ, etc.
53-18 (75%) Score against teammate when both finished a race.
71-30 (70%) Score against teammate in qualifying.
Teammates ( Heidfeld, Liuzzi, Bourdais, Webber)
Teams ( BMW 1 race, Toro Rosso 25 races, Red Bull 75 races)


Best races of each driver that you should check (my opinion only, obviously)
Best Senna's races between these 101 races (84 Monaco, 85 Estoril, 88 Suzuka)
Best Vettel's races (2008 Monza, 2010 Abu Dhabi, 2012 Abu Dhabi)

Edited by Kyo, 09 January 2013 - 03:54.


#453 Kyo

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:59

Senna had a better record in the junior series (73% win rate o.O)
In F1 Vettel has more WDC 3-1, and wins 26-23 while Senna has more podiums 47-46 and poles 46-36
Senna has a better record against teammates too. 80%-75% in races and 90%-70% in qualifying.

Statistically they are pretty close, so why do I think Seb is not in the same class as Ayrton?
Simple, because they both achieved similar numbers but Vettel had overall a better car, and when they both had the best car to get all victories Seb was against Webber while Senna was against Prost.
IMO 84 Toleman was comparatively to other cars a little worse than 2008 STR, the Lotus 97T, 98T and 99T were the 4th best cars. So only the McLarens were as good as the Red Bulls, but this represents only 38% of Senna's races while Vettel was driving a RBR 75% of the time.



#454 bourbon

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:10

Very well put, it was different back then, and the analogy with Glenn Gould is very well taken - for the eccentricity of the man. Better still, take the intensity of Sviatoslav Richter and the soulfulness of Dinu Lipatti, then you have a real equivalent for Senna.

For Sebastian Vettel I would take the analogy in Marc-Andre Hamelin - perfection in technique but not imparting too much of his personality into the music he interprets. Similarly Vettel's races and pole laps are often spotless but lack the soul, flair and fire that Senna impregnated his immortal laps with.


Only to you. For me, watching Senna is like listening to that new age stuff in the elevator - nervous and anger inducing. Watching Vettel, is like listening to a masterpiece - sublime excitement. But that is why you can't compare drivers - they are seen quite distinctly among groups fans. Both are absolutely fantastic drivers - but it just depends on the style you favor.

Edited by bourbon, 09 January 2013 - 04:12.


#455 aditya-now

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:47

I decided to do an overview of both drivers careers but only going till Senna's 101st Grand Prix.

Senna first time driving a Formula car was in 1981 with 20yo.
Highlights
British Formula 3 champion 1983.
Winner of the Macau Formula 3 Grand Prix 1983.
British Formula Ford 2000 champion 1982.
European Formula Ford 2000 champion 1982.
Winner of the Celebrity Formula Ford 2000 race 1982.
British RAC Formula Ford 1600 champion 1981.
British Townsend Thorsesen Formula Ford 1600 champion 1981.
In 3 years he did 67 races with 49 wins, 59 podiums and 32 pole positions

Vettel first time driving a Formula car was in 2003 with 15yo
Highlights
Was leading World Series by Renault when he left to race F1 in 2007
Second in Formula 3 Euro Series 2006.
Third in Formula 3 Macau GP 2005.
German Formula BMW champion 2004.
Second in Formula BMW ADAC 2003.
In 4.5 years he did 94 races with 29 wins, 54 podiums and 22 pole positions.

Senna F1 career
started in 1984 with 24yo and in his 101 first gps he had
1 WDC
23 wins
47 podiums
46 pole positions
11 retirements duo to contact with other drivers or their own mistakes
30 retirements duo to other reasons like mechanical failures, DSQ, etc.
33-8 (80%) Score against teammate when both finished a race .
86-10 (90%) Score against teammate in qualifying.
Teammates ( Cecotto, Johansson, de Angelis, Dumfries, Nakajima, Prost, Berger)
Teams ( Toleman 15 races, Lotus 48 races, McLaren 38 races)


Vettel F1 career started in 2007 with 19yo and till now he has 101 gps
3 WDC
26 wins
46 podiums
36 pole positions
09 retirements duo to contact with other drivers or their own mistakes
11 retirements duo to other reasons like mechanical failures, DSQ, etc.
53-18 (75%) Score against teammate when both finished a race.
71-30 (70%) Score against teammate in qualifying.
Teammates ( Heidfeld, Liuzzi, Bourdais, Webber)
Teams ( BMW 1 race, Toro Rosso 25 races, Red Bull 75 races)


Best races of each driver that you should check (my opinion only, obviously)
Best Senna's races between these 101 races (84 Monaco, 85 Estoril, 88 Suzuka)
Best Vettel's races (2008 Monza, 2010 Abu Dhabi, 2012 Abu Dhabi)


Thank you for the exhaustive comparison, Kyo - it certainly gives a good measure.

What is striking is the number of mechanical failures that Senna had as compared to Vettel (about three times as much) - the material was much more unreliable in those days.

Vettel has 3 WDCs as compared to Senna only 1 at this point in time, but the statistics are otherwise quite level - of course Senna even more dominating in qualifying and in comparison to his team mates.

Senna had a better record in the junior series (73% win rate o.O)
In F1 Vettel has more WDC 3-1, and wins 26-23 while Senna has more podiums 47-46 and poles 46-36
Senna has a better record against teammates too. 80%-75% in races and 90%-70% in qualifying.

Statistically they are pretty close, so why do I think Seb is not in the same class as Ayrton?
Simple, because they both achieved similar numbers but Vettel had overall a better car, and when they both had the best car to get all victories Seb was against Webber while Senna was against Prost.
IMO 84 Toleman was comparatively to other cars a little worse than 2008 STR, the Lotus 97T, 98T and 99T were the 4th best cars. So only the McLarens were as good as the Red Bulls, but this represents only 38% of Senna's races while Vettel was driving a RBR 75% of the time.


To which nothing can be added - all facts. Excellent analysis and quite some work you have put into it, Kyo!


#456 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:52

Senna had a better record in the junior series (73% win rate o.O)
In F1 Vettel has more WDC 3-1, and wins 26-23 while Senna has more podiums 47-46 and poles 46-36
Senna has a better record against teammates too. 80%-75% in races and 90%-70% in qualifying.

Statistically they are pretty close, so why do I think Seb is not in the same class as Ayrton?
Simple, because they both achieved similar numbers but Vettel had overall a better car, and when they both had the best car to get all victories Seb was against Webber while Senna was against Prost.
IMO 84 Toleman was comparatively to other cars a little worse than 2008 STR, the Lotus 97T, 98T and 99T were the 4th best cars. So only the McLarens were as good as the Red Bulls, but this represents only 38% of Senna's races while Vettel was driving a RBR 75% of the time.

A well thought out post. Just goes to show that punching in pole positions, races wins and championships in the overall best car against a weaker teammate doesn't necessarily make you the greatest ever.

#457 Sakae

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:25

A well thought out post. Just goes to show that punching in pole positions, races wins and championships in the overall best car against a weaker teammate doesn't necessarily make you the greatest ever.

I thought that Hamilton and Alonso were racing in 2012 also against weaker teammates, so, why single out Vettel, is beyond my comprehension. Moreover, it would be nice to justify this now tiring mantra, that RBR was the best car on the grid. Certainly more objective assessment would realize advantages cars around RBR had, including Ferrari in the race trim.

Edited by Sakae, 09 January 2013 - 10:27.


#458 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:31

I thought that Hamilton and Alonso were racing in 2012 also against weaker teammates, so, why single out Vettel, is beyond my comprehension.

The clue is in the thread title.

#459 fastwriter

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:33

A well thought out post. Just goes to show that punching in pole positions, races wins and championships in the overall best car against a weaker teammate doesn't necessarily make you the greatest ever.



Do you mean Sennabwith that?

He had quite weak teammates until he met Prost and. Lost one championship against him. The only fast driver Senna met in his own teams before moving to McLaren was Elio de Angelis. And the Itallian only finished five points behindvSenna in the Championship, got a pole and a race win.

What I want to say: Stats can be used any way you wish. But definitly not to proof you right.

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#460 LiJu914

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:39

...Statistically they are pretty close,...

Err, no they aren´t.

You probably know that i would put Senna over Vettel every day of the week - but statistically Vettel has 2 WDCs more in your comparision, which is two more than most drivers ever achieved in F1 and by far the most important stat in your list - more than all other stats combined.


#461 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:50

Do you mean Sennabwith that?

He had quite weak teammates until he met Prost and. Lost one championship against him. The only fast driver Senna met in his own teams before moving to McLaren was Elio de Angelis. And the Itallian only finished five points behindvSenna in the Championship, got a pole and a race win.

What I want to say: Stats can be used any way you wish. But definitly not to proof you right.

A World Championship teammate was only one part of my analysis. Vettel is in the best car, the best team, and is a clear number one within his team. He has the winning formula right now and credit to him he is getting the job done. Up until now his rivals have either had weaker cars, or have had to fight against their teammates first and foremost. If you compare Vettel to Senna, then IMO there are two other drivers presently in F1 that should be considered in the same equation. I don't actually think any of them have accomplished that status as yet and think once their careers are over we'll have a better picture.

#462 Group B

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:58

A World Championship teammate was only one part of my analysis. Vettel is in the best car, the best team, and is a clear number one within his team. He has the winning formula right now and credit to him he is getting the job done. Up until now his rivals have either had weaker cars, or have had to fight against their teammates first and foremost. If you compare Vettel to Senna, then IMO there are two other drivers presently in F1 that should be considered in the same equation. I don't actually think any of them have accomplished that status as yet and think once their careers are over we'll have a better picture.

Remind me, how many times did Webber slow down and pull over for Vettel last year?

#463 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:52

Remind me, how many times did Webber slow down and pull over for Vettel last year?

Don't be lazy, look that up yourself. I know the answer ;)

#464 Group B

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:57

:rolleyes:
Then tell us. You're the one making a big issue of it so it's up to you to provide the evidence.

#465 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:17

:rolleyes:
Then tell us. You're the one making a big issue of it so it's up to you to provide the evidence.

I'm not making an issue out of it and it was your random question not mine. At no point have I mentioned drivers pulling over for other drivers in my recent posts. I have offered my opinion without being touchy about it. You can throw as many sarcastic smilies as you like at me, not my problem.

#466 Group B

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:41

I'm not making an issue out of it and it was your random question not mine. At no point have I mentioned drivers pulling over for other drivers in my recent posts. I have offered my opinion without being touchy about it. You can throw as many sarcastic smilies as you like at me, not my problem.

You refer to Vettel's 'clear number one' position and not having to fight his teammates, implying this makes his life much easier than that of his rivals. Since you state it as fact and offer it as a substantial part of your argument/opinion I'm merely asking you to elaborate a little. Seems to me it is your problem, you can either substantiate it or not look desperately credible.

I don't doubt that RB consider SV their 'number one' driver, but that doesn't automatically or magically make an extra 20 or 30 points appear next to his name come November, it's only relevant if events transpire to show RB have exercised that perceived pecking order to give extra points to Vettel at Webber's expense.

#467 Coops3

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:47

What is striking is the number of mechanical failures that Senna had as compared to Vettel (about three times as much) - the material was much more unreliable in those days.


In terms of comparing the two drivers though, I'm not sure it tells us much. A higher rate of mechanical failures in a particular era is only a disadvantage if your competition at the time has relatively good reliability. If everyone else has poor reliability too, things even themselves out. Apologies if you weren't implying a comparison.

Edited by Coops3, 09 January 2013 - 12:47.


#468 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:47

You refer to Vettel's 'clear number one' position and not having to fight his teammates, implying this makes his life much easier than that of his rivals. Since you state it as fact and offer it as a substantial part of your argument/opinion I'm merely asking you to elaborate a little. Seems to me it is your problem, you can either substantiate it or not look desperately credible.

I don't doubt that RB consider SV their 'number one' driver, but that doesn't automatically or magically make an extra 20 or 30 points appear next to his name come November, it's only relevant if events transpire to show RB have exercised that perceived pecking order to give extra points to Vettel at Webber's expense.

Vettel doesn't need his teammate to pull over for him because he is faster, consistent, and generally adapts to changes better. Rarely is Seb in a position where his teammate is given the option to pull over, if ever it happens even. Seb is the better driver at Red Bull and you don't win 3 WDC's and be admired as amongst the best in the sport if you are no good. He's earnt the right to be a clear number one within that team much like Alonso did at Ferrari. There are occasions where Webber completely blows him away, rarely but it does happen. Still, he's got the team around him to get the job done when it counts. Its that clear enough for you or do I know need to prove why I think Vettel is better than Webber?

#469 Coops3

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:55

You refer to Vettel's 'clear number one' position and not having to fight his teammates, implying this makes his life much easier than that of his rivals. Since you state it as fact and offer it as a substantial part of your argument/opinion I'm merely asking you to elaborate a little. Seems to me it is your problem, you can either substantiate it or not look desperately credible.

I don't doubt that RB consider SV their 'number one' driver, but that doesn't automatically or magically make an extra 20 or 30 points appear next to his name come November, it's only relevant if events transpire to show RB have exercised that perceived pecking order to give extra points to Vettel at Webber's expense.


Like giving Vettel Webber's front wing, for example?

#470 mnmracer

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 13:12

Like giving Vettel Webber's front wing, for example?

The fact that you can only name 1 thing in 77 races says enough about the value of that comment.
Not to mention it is irrelevant, as it didn't make Webber slower.

#471 Coops3

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 13:15

The fact that you can only name 1 thing in 77 races says enough about the value of that comment.
Not to mention it is irrelevant, as it didn't make Webber slower.


Come on, there is more emphasis on Vettel than Webber at RB. I'm not saying it's not justified. Anyway, OT...

Edited by Coops3, 09 January 2013 - 13:16.


#472 BoschKurve

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:10

Senna had a better record in the junior series (73% win rate o.O)
In F1 Vettel has more WDC 3-1, and wins 26-23 while Senna has more podiums 47-46 and poles 46-36
Senna has a better record against teammates too. 80%-75% in races and 90%-70% in qualifying.

Statistically they are pretty close, so why do I think Seb is not in the same class as Ayrton?
Simple, because they both achieved similar numbers but Vettel had overall a better car, and when they both had the best car to get all victories Seb was against Webber while Senna was against Prost.
IMO 84 Toleman was comparatively to other cars a little worse than 2008 STR, the Lotus 97T, 98T and 99T were the 4th best cars. So only the McLarens were as good as the Red Bulls, but this represents only 38% of Senna's races while Vettel was driving a RBR 75% of the time.


Thanks for posting that Kyo, it's really interesting to see it.

The two things that stand out are just how dominant Senna was in qualifying compared to Vettel. On the flipside the 3 WDC's that Vettel has in the same amount of time certainly is very strong.

Vettel has benefited from a few things in comparison. He didn't have to meander around for a few years on midfield/near backmarker teams. He was extremely fortunate in not having to drive a dog like the Toleman TG183, which Senna did have to drive for a few of the early races in 1984 till Toleman rolled out the TG184. With the single tire supplier, Vettel also was not put into a situation like Senna was when Pirelli was supplying Toleman up until Imola. Pirelli tires were garbage back then, and still are in my opinion. Even when Toleman switched to Michelin, they were not getting the same compounds that the top teams like McLaren were getting. Although they did once coincidentally at Monaco 1984. Michelin had to give Toleman the same rain tires as McLaren and the other teams they supplied.

#473 Winter98

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:17

Vettel is in the best car,


In 2011 I would agree.

In 2010 and 2012 it is pure conjecture. After all in 2012 Webber only managed 6th. And down the stretch Massa demonstrated the Ferrari had the pace to win the WDC, Alonso just failed to deliver.

Edited by Winter98, 09 January 2013 - 14:21.


#474 BoschKurve

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:24

In 2011 I would agree.

In 2010 and 2012 it is pure conjecture. After all in 2012 Webber only managed 6th. And down the stretch Massa demonstrated the Ferrari had the pace to win the WDC, Alonso just failed to deliver.


I agree.

If Alonso was not KO'd out of Spa or Suzuka, there is a very strong chance he would have been world champion. Vettel did have to work a bit for 2012, and he also did get some luck his way at the right time.

#475 Winter98

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:24

Although they did once coincidentally at Monaco 1984. Michelin had to give Toleman the same rain tires as McLaren and the other teams they supplied.


I didn't know that. Thanks for the info Bosch

#476 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:43

In 2011 I would agree.

In 2010 and 2012 it is pure conjecture. After all in 2012 Webber only managed 6th. And down the stretch Massa demonstrated the Ferrari had the pace to win the WDC, Alonso just failed to deliver.

I don't agree. I think Vettel is the best driver out of the Red Bull two and has had the best team around him for 3 years straight. Apart from a few races at the beginning of the season Red Bull have been near enough on the pace all season. Had McLaren not had issues with reliability I am sure they would have walked the championship with Lewis, but part of having the best car is building it so it finishes. McLaren most probably had the fastest car in 2012 overall, but they threw it away with reliability and mistakes.

I also don't agree Alonso failed to deliver in 2012. Just because he was outpaced slightly in two races towards the end, does not mean Massa demonstrated its pace. Its relative to the driver. Its a bit like saying Vettel failed to deliver at two of the blue ribbon races in 2012, Silverstone and Monaco because Webber demonstrated the Red Bull's pace. Give over.

#477 Winter98

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:15

I also don't agree Alonso failed to deliver in 2012. Just because he was outpaced slightly in two races towards the end, does not mean Massa demonstrated its pace. Its relative to the driver. Its a bit like saying Vettel failed to deliver at two of the blue ribbon races in 2012, Silverstone and Monaco because Webber demonstrated the Red Bull's pace. Give over.


Unless they award more points for victories at Silverstone and Monaco there is nothing blue ribbon about either race in terms of winning the WCC and WDC.

Winning the battles down the stretch, with everything on the line, is what separates the greats from the also rans in every sport. In this context, Alonso has failed to deliver against Vettel, twice. Vettel has delivered, and that is why he has secured his place amongst the legends of F1 at the tender age of 25.

Edited by Winter98, 09 January 2013 - 15:18.


#478 BoschKurve

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:28

One thing I do want to mention is that even though in Vettel has secured his place in F1 history, the larger question that we won't know the answer to for a long time, is how will he be remembered. We assume he has more championships to win, and it looks like he will, but F1 can be a really fickle place. Nelson Piquet was a triple world champion, and he's faded into the background quite a bit.

#479 boldhakka

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:30

Vettel doesn't need his teammate to pull over for him because he is faster, consistent, and generally adapts to changes better. Rarely is Seb in a position where his teammate is given the option to pull over, if ever it happens even. Seb is the better driver at Red Bull and you don't win 3 WDC's and be admired as amongst the best in the sport if you are no good. He's earnt the right to be a clear number one within that team much like Alonso did at Ferrari. There are occasions where Webber completely blows him away, rarely but it does happen. Still, he's got the team around him to get the job done when it counts. Its that clear enough for you or do I know need to prove why I think Vettel is better than Webber?


You originally claimed Vettel "is a clear number one within his team". Here you've argued that he's earned the right to be number one in the team. But nowhere do you show that he has exercised the right or that the team has granted him that right.

You have not substantiated your claim at all.

By comparing him to Alonso and using the phrase "number one", you are trying to equate two very different set of behaviors - one has his teammate's gearbox broken on purpose for a better starting position, while the other has to watch as his teammate squeezes him to to T1.

Clever. There is nothing to show that Vettel enjoys any special or preferential treatment from the members of RBR who matter.

Edited by boldhakka, 09 January 2013 - 15:37.


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#480 Rinehart

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:02

You originally claimed Vettel "is a clear number one within his team". Here you've argued that he's earned the right to be number one in the team. But nowhere do you show that he has exercised the right or that the team has granted him that right.

You have not substantiated your claim at all.

By comparing him to Alonso and using the phrase "number one", you are trying to equate two very different set of behaviors - one has his teammate's gearbox broken on purpose for a better starting position, while the other has to watch as his teammate squeezes him to to T1.

Clever. There is nothing to show that Vettel enjoys any special or preferential treatment from the members of RBR who matter.


This is all a bit pedantic.

Vettel has just won 3 titles to Webbers 0. Who the heck do you think they consider their number 1 driver???

#481 Winter98

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:11

One thing I do want to mention is that even though in Vettel has secured his place in F1 history, the larger question that we won't know the answer to for a long time, is how will he be remembered. We assume he has more championships to win, and it looks like he will, but F1 can be a really fickle place. Nelson Piquet was a triple world champion, and he's faded into the background quite a bit.


I agree Bosch. If Vettel does nothing more, his stock will certainly slip.

#482 BoschKurve

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 17:08

I agree Bosch. If Vettel does nothing more, his stock will certainly slip.


I know there are all of these rumors circulating about Vettel going to Ferrari, but I have to question whether that would be the best possible move.

Actually it brings up an interesting subject.

Senna left each team because he was seeking a better opportunity that would give him the best possible chance to win world championships. Vettel has not had to take this into consideration as they've been the best environment to win a world championship. If you go to McLaren or Ferrari, you can win races, but world championships have been harder to come by at either place. If you exclude the circumstances of the early to mid 2000's when they/Schumacher took 5 straight, Ferrari has just one title winning driver since Jody Scheckter in '79; Kimi Raikkonen. Ferrari wins races, but championships are another story. Same goes for McLaren. Once you step away from the days of Lauda, Prost, and Senna, they've only got three championships under their belt. Three of which could easily have been swung in Ferrari's direction were it not for Belgium '98 or Silverstone '99 or Brazil '08. Both teams win races, nothing else is assured.

Assuming things stay stable at Red Bull, he may be best to stay there as I feel that's his best chance for winning championships.

#483 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 17:27

Unless they award more points for victories at Silverstone and Monaco there is nothing blue ribbon about either race in terms of winning the WCC and WDC.

Winning the battles down the stretch, with everything on the line, is what separates the greats from the also rans in every sport. In this context, Alonso has failed to deliver against Vettel, twice. Vettel has delivered, and that is why he has secured his place amongst the legends of F1 at the tender age of 25.

Your logic is seriously flawed. A championship is won from points scored throughout a season not just at the end. Alonso delivered in a worse car than Vettel to come very near to winning the title in the end. Its not a matter of under-performing its a case of doing the best with what you have and Alonso certainly did that this season. Fernando has been recognised for his efforts this season along with Lewis, so you can blab on about who separates the greats all you like but its clear to me you don't know what you are talking about.

#484 Winter98

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 17:30

Assuming things stay stable at Red Bull, he may be best to stay there as I feel that's his best chance for winning championships.


Yeah, if they are winning more championships, one would think Vettel will almost certainly renew his contract. Even if they aren't, I can see Vettel staying and helping to rebuild the team.


#485 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 17:33

You originally claimed Vettel "is a clear number one within his team". Here you've argued that he's earned the right to be number one in the team. But nowhere do you show that he has exercised the right or that the team has granted him that right.

You have not substantiated your claim at all.

By comparing him to Alonso and using the phrase "number one", you are trying to equate two very different set of behaviors - one has his teammate's gearbox broken on purpose for a better starting position, while the other has to watch as his teammate squeezes him to to T1.

Clever. There is nothing to show that Vettel enjoys any special or preferential treatment from the members of RBR who matter.

*Shrugs shoulders*
I think we all know who has the emotional support within Red Bull and especially after recent comments from the team. It must be hard for Webber to stay motivated when the focus is largely on Vettel which makes him look even stronger when you see his results. I really couldn't care less whether you share my view but I am happy in the knowledge I am completely right.

#486 Winter98

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 17:40

Your logic is seriously flawed. A championship is won from points scored throughout a season not just at the end.


The pundits always say "The points in the early games are as important as the points in the later games." But in every sport I've watched, inferior teams and athletes have gotten off to great starts, only to fold as the season progresses. The hardest thing is sports is to perform when the pressure is greatest, and that's why I say an athletes performance down the stretch is much more telling than his early performances. The greats get the job done, that's why they are champions.

Alonso delivered in a worse car than Vettel to come very near to winning the title in the end.


Well, that's conjecture.

Webber certainly didn't finish 2nd. Or 3rd. Or even 4th. The biggest difference between the top cars seemed to be that one of them had a Vettel in it. Having a Vettel in your car has sure been a good thing don't you think?

...so you can blab on about who separates the greats all you like but its clear to me you don't know what you are talking about.


Yet here we are legitimately comparing Vettel to Senna.

Edited by Winter98, 09 January 2013 - 17:42.


#487 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 17:43

Webber certainly didn't finish 2nd. Or 3rd. Or even 4th. The biggest difference between the top cars seemed to be that one of them had a Vettel in it. Having a Vettel in your car has sure been a good thing don't you think?

Whats this got to do with me? I'm not the one suggesting Vettel isn't 'one' of the best drivers in Formula One and will naturally extract the best out of a car in comparison to his team mate. Hamilton and Alonso have also done this consistently and are greats in their own right. Vettel is one of the best.

#488 Winter98

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 18:08

Whats this got to do with me? I'm not the one suggesting Vettel isn't 'one' of the best drivers in Formula One and will naturally extract the best out of a car in comparison to his team mate. Hamilton and Alonso have also done this consistently and are greats in their own right. Vettel is one of the best.


I was pointing out that I don't buy the argument that the RBR was necessarily superior to the Ferrari in 2012. That is pure conjecture.

A great driver can make all the difference, and as I see it, Vettel did that this year by clinching the WDC. I think it's fair to say Alonso is threatened by Vettel's skill, or else he never would started all this "I'm racing Newey" nonsense, and would have let his driving do the talking. This is why this this thread is comparing Vettel to Senna, and not Alonso.

Edited by Winter98, 09 January 2013 - 18:11.


#489 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 18:36

I was pointing out that I don't buy the argument that the RBR was necessarily superior to the Ferrari in 2012. That is pure conjecture.

You keep using the word 'conjecture' but that can also be said about your stance. There were many instances where the performance gap between Red Bull and Ferrari was clearly visible, although the Ferrari was not the dog many claimed it to be this season. I just take issue with your claim Alonso didn't deliver, like he crumbled under the pressure. I think we've all seen Alonso for long enough to know he fights to the very end and rarely puts a foot wrong. Thats why is still considered the most complete driver on the current grid with a wealth of experience not just when he won his titles.

A great driver can make all the difference, and as I see it, Vettel did that this year by clinching the WDC. I think it's fair to say Alonso is threatened by Vettel's skill, or else he never would started all this "I'm racing Newey" nonsense, and would have let his driving do the talking. This is why this this thread is comparing Vettel to Senna, and not Alonso.

Vettel made more mistakes during 2012 than Hamilton and Alonso combined. He is either extremely good at recovery, or benefited hugely by opponents retiring from the lead to give him extra points to their none finishes. Nobody is saying Vettel didn't deserve the title, he did he scored the most points, but it wasn't won purely by being a legend. You may feel good under the notion Vettel is as good as Senna because he has won three titles, but it shouldn't surprise you that not everyone rates Seb as the greatest ever or even the outright best in F1 right now.

#490 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 19:53

This is all very 'Vettel' but not very 'Senna'. Discussing whether Vettel and Senna both had or deserved #1 status would be on topic.

Please focus your discussion or start a new thread to talk about whether or not he has #1 status. Copy and paste to a new thread if you have to. Further posts on that here are off topic and will be removed, so please do not waste your time and mine.

#491 BoschKurve

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 20:13

Senna had deserved #1 status from 1984-1987 and 1990-1994.

One could make a case that it was less #1 status and more equal status for 1988 and 1989 as Alain was the closest to being equal as one could ever have hoped for against Ayrton.

But he did wind up losing the team in the manner that Elio de Angelis saw happen to himself in 1985.

I'd say Vettel is deserving of #1 status at Red Bull even though they let Webber challenge Vettel when the championship was long out of his hands. Perhaps the thought is that it doesn't matter if they let Webber challenge since they know Vettel will more than likely be ahead of him.

#492 Winter98

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 20:56

You may feel good under the notion Vettel is as good as Senna because he has won three titles, but it shouldn't surprise you that not everyone rates Seb as the greatest ever or even the outright best in F1 right now.


I've specifically stated in this thread that I rate Senna higher than Vettel (twice now I believe), so I'm not sure why you are going on about this.

Certainly Vettel is closing in, as demonstrated by Ascanelli's statements and his 3 WDCs, but in my books he's not there yet.

Edited by Winter98, 09 January 2013 - 20:56.


#493 BoschKurve

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 21:40

I've specifically stated in this thread that I rate Senna higher than Vettel (twice now I believe), so I'm not sure why you are going on about this.

Certainly Vettel is closing in, as demonstrated by Ascanelli's statements and his 3 WDCs, but in my books he's not there yet.


The one thing that likely will ever prevent me from seeing Vettel as being the perfect equal to Senna is that the light Ayrton had. Off the top of my head, I've only seen it in Gilles Villeneuve. I think maybe Nuvolari had it, but that was way way before my time. :)

I think Jim Clark had it as well.

Edited by BoschKurve, 09 January 2013 - 21:41.


#494 Skinnyguy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 23:25

The one thing that likely will ever prevent me from seeing Vettel as being the perfect equal to Senna is that the light Ayrton had. Off the top of my head, I've only seen it in Gilles Villeneuve. I think maybe Nuvolari had it, but that was way way before my time. :)

I think Jim Clark had it as well.


I guess you must be the spiritual and transcendental kind of guy to see that stuff. Senna´s "light", the shivers when seeing a yellow helmet inside a red/white McLaren... what´s that crap all about? Does anyone really think that this stuff means anything at all when evaluating a driver? :confused:

What was great about Senna was his raw qualifying speed and his steel balls in unknown conditions. Let´s talk about actual performances and abilities please.



#495 Winter98

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 23:28

The one thing that likely will ever prevent me from seeing Vettel as being the perfect equal to Senna is that the light Ayrton had. Off the top of my head, I've only seen it in Gilles Villeneuve. I think maybe Nuvolari had it, but that was way way before my time. :)

I think Jim Clark had it as well.


Cool. The passion F1 brings is one of my favourite things about the sport, and few, if any, brought more passion than Mr. Senna. :)

#496 Shiroo

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 23:34

Senna was an amazing driver, but Vettel isnt behind him at all in my opinion. First of all, different times, drivers made bigger difference back then. Also the most common thing about people that die in accidents is:

Their skill is exaggerated.


I don't want to be disrespectful for anyone, especially for such an amazing driver as Senna, but that's pretty common, that people that are already dead, and that died in accidents are always a bit hyped (for example Cliff Burton from Metallica if we consider non drivers).

and that's pretty common. If Schumacer woudl die in accident (thanks god he didnt) he would be like on par with god etc.



For me, personally, Vettel might be as good as Senna, but it is hard t compare them due to fact that cars changed dramatically and all gismos as well.

#497 jj2728

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:34

Senna was an amazing driver, but Vettel isnt behind him at all in my opinion. First of all, different times, drivers made bigger difference back then. Also the most common thing about people that die in accidents is:

Their skill is exaggerated.


I don't want to be disrespectful for anyone, especially for such an amazing driver as Senna, but that's pretty common, that people that are already dead, and that died in accidents are always a bit hyped (for example Cliff Burton from Metallica if we consider non drivers).


That's a bullshit statement if ever I've read one here. Drivers like Senna, Clark and Villeneuve were all roundly accepted in their respected eras as being the benchmarks for others to follow. To say otherwise, as you have, shows a lack of knowledge about the sport. Their deaths hype nothing. Only the naive would believe otherwise.

#498 boldhakka

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:07

*Shrugs shoulders*
I think we all know who has the emotional support within Red Bull and especially after recent comments from the team. It must be hard for Webber to stay motivated when the focus is largely on Vettel which makes him look even stronger when you see his results. I really couldn't care less whether you share my view but I am happy in the knowledge I am completely right.


Stick to what you wrote above, and you'll be fine. Emotional support, yada yada. Don't try to spin that into something akin to what Alonso is enjoying by comparing them or using the wrong terms. :kiss:

#499 Shiroo

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:20

That's a bullshit statement if ever I've read one here. Drivers like Senna, Clark and Villeneuve were all roundly accepted in their respected eras as being the benchmarks for others to follow. To say otherwise, as you have, shows a lack of knowledge about the sport. Their deaths hype nothing. Only the naive would believe otherwise.

I didnt belittle them. But deaths always bring something like a myth. And drivers nowdays, even as good as them cant reach their position. Vettel is a brilliant driver (and I'm really not a fan of RBR neither Vettel) but most people won't give him credit for that. You can recall his SPA this year, people mentioned that he simply cant overtake, while he made BRILLIANT passes non drs zone, he rather easly smash a good teammate that was supposed to be big name once in the future when he started the sport (I still can recall Webber brilliant Qualifcation perofrmance in Brasil few years back, when in car that had inferior car, he got P2). He probably wouldn't be on par with Senna, in 90s and 80s, BUT we can say the same about Senna in current motorsport, we have no idea how Senna would perform nowdays.

We have no proof that current regulations and cars would work fine with Senna, and even as exceptional talent, he could be lost a bit here. Just look how many drivers, that were great in minor series, when F1 came, they lost to their old teammates.

That's why any comparing between SOOO different times is kind of odd.


And I didnt say that Senna or Clark werent benchmarks for mother of god. I just tried to state, that comparing Vettel to them, and in other way as well, is just impossible. There are no doubts about how superior they were during their careers. Senna was, as I mentioned above, brilliant driver, probably best during his era, but with all that said, we can't say how he would handle nowdays cars, and maybe he would be some just slight above avarage driver.

Because, it is not only talent that matters, but the place, the time and all things that need to come in one place, to be human being that surpasses everyone in something.


That's why, he might be as good as Senna, or even better, but only if we consider the era that he is racing in, how F1 looks like atm etc. In the end Vettel is kind of benchmark as well nowdays. he is youngest 3 times WDC, and you can say that he had most of the time fastest car (well with this one I need to disagree, because 2012 he had good car but most of the time there was a better one) but he never gave up, never gave in to pressure etc.

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#500 BoschKurve

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:22

That's a bullshit statement if ever I've read one here. Drivers like Senna, Clark and Villeneuve were all roundly accepted in their respected eras as being the benchmarks for others to follow. To say otherwise, as you have, shows a lack of knowledge about the sport. Their deaths hype nothing. Only the naive would believe otherwise.


Well said.

It's sad people still try to debate how much ability these men had behind the wheel of a car.

They were considered to be the fastest drivers of their respective eras by their peers. There was never any doubt about this. It's become a sort of sport unto itself to try and take down their ability for whatever reasons people have. Each one of them raised the benchmark for what a Formula One driver was, to the point that they are still used as benchmarks 20, 30, and 40 years after they were killed.