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Vettel as good as Senna, says Ascanelli


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#501 BoschKurve

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:24

We have no proof that current regulations and cars would work fine with Senna, and even as exceptional talent, he could be lost a bit here. Just look how many drivers, that were great in minor series, when F1 came, they lost to their old teammates.


I don't really know how aware of this you are, but Clark and Senna in particular were fast in everything they drove. They took very well to whatever race car they stepped into, enough that in the case of Senna he was able to give instant technical feedback about what a car was doing and how to improve it.

Here's the other thing, Senna had the absolute dedication and concentration that no other driver ever had. He would have handled any car with the ability we saw over the 10 years he raced in F1. His skill was present at every lower level of racing before Formula One.

Edited by BoschKurve, 10 January 2013 - 02:27.


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#502 Shiroo

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:32

I don't really know how aware of this you are, but Clark and Senna in particular were fast in everything they drove. They took very well to whatever race car they stepped into, enough that in the case of Senna he was able to give instant technical feedback about what a car was doing and how to improve it.

Here's the other thing, Senna had the absolute dedication and concentration that no other driver ever had. He would have handled any car with the ability we saw over the 10 years he raced in F1. His skill was present at every lower level of racing before Formula One.

I'm aware of that. BUT, nowdays cars have a shitload of more technology, actually drivers do not have that much influence on performance as they used to have. And such limitation could hurt Senna driving style. He was wild and superior driver no doubts about that. But to be honest, it is similar to how people in 50s, the people that were driving road cars, would jump to nowdays Mercedes AMG. They would drive it for sure, after few weeks most probably, but they wouldn't be as good as people that were raised in days that such cars were invented. People are good at learning, but when the age comes they cant keep it up with youngsters that were raised in such envirnoment right from the beginning. That's why I believe, that Vettel could be superior in nowdays F1 to Senna, but it is only because of times that they are racing in.

If Senna would be born at the same time as Vettel, then with his exceptional talent he could beat Vettel, no doubts. But that's how I see it :)

Edited by Shiroo, 10 January 2013 - 02:33.


#503 BoschKurve

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:36

Dear god.

#504 Kingshark

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:43

That's a bullshit statement if ever I've read one here. Drivers like Senna, Clark and Villeneuve were all roundly accepted in their respected eras as being the benchmarks for others to follow. To say otherwise, as you have, shows a lack of knowledge about the sport. Their deaths hype nothing. Only the naive would believe otherwise.

Senna and Clark yes, Villeneuve no. Gilles Villeneuve is still, to this day one of the most overrated drivers of all time. In a 5 year career, as long as Vettel's, he accomplished nothing. He was constantly beaten by teammates, and while he was fast on his day, he was more error-prone than Grosjean. Yes. Gilles Villeneuve is the golden example of a driver with an immortalized reputation due his death. To say that he was a benchmark of even one year, let alone an era is delusional.

Yes, while unlike Villeneuve, Senna deserves to be called a legend, he too is overrated due his death It's getting quite ridiculously annoying when people single him out as the sole greatest driver of all time. He was no better than Alonso, Vettel or Hamilton are today.

Edited by Kingshark, 10 January 2013 - 02:45.


#505 Shiroo

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:56

Senna and Clark yes, Villeneuve no. Gilles Villeneuve is still, to this day one of the most overrated drivers of all time. In a 5 year career, as long as Vettel's, he accomplished nothing. He was constantly beaten by teammates, and while he was fast on his day, he was more error-prone than Grosjean. Yes. Gilles Villeneuve is the golden example of a driver with an immortalized reputation due his death. To say that he was a benchmark of even one year, let alone an era is delusional.

Yes, while unlike Villeneuve, Senna deserves to be called a legend, he too is overrated due his death It's getting quite ridiculously annoying when people single him out as the sole greatest driver of all time. He was no better than Alonso, Vettel or Hamilton are today.

For last, someone that has the same opinion as I.

#506 BoschKurve

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:17

Yes, while unlike Villeneuve, Senna deserves to be called a legend, he too is overrated due his death It's getting quite ridiculously annoying when people single him out as the sole greatest driver of all time. He was no better than Alonso, Vettel or Hamilton are today.


Hmmm...do my eyes deceive?

Wait...nah...

You are trying to use your opinion and your feel about a driver as evidence to an argument, which is worthless I'm afraid.




#507 Kingshark

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:58

Hmmm...do my eyes deceive?

Wait...nah...

What proper arguments have you provided for Senna being better than Vettel?

I have already stated mine - Vettel, within the 5 years he has been in F1, has accomplished as much as Senna had in 10 years - 3 world championships. Vettel has done this within a much shorter period of time, he's also faced off against great rivals such as Alonso and Hamilton. Likewise, he has done his achievements at a much younger age, with considerably less experience.

Again, give me one good argument to why Senna should be rated higher; and don't just say: "he gives me chills when he drives." Give me a proper, constructed argument.

You are among one of the people that stretched this debate to 13 pages by doing nothing but stating and repeating your opinion, over and over again. Surely you didn't expect a quality response?

#508 Winter98

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:57

Vettel, within the 5 years he has been in F1, has accomplished as much as Senna had in 10 years - 3 world championships. Vettel has done this within a much shorter period of time, he's also faced off against great rivals such as Alonso and Hamilton. Likewise, he has done his achievements at a much younger age, with considerably less experience.


Very good points Kingshark.

I think it is undeniable that Senna's legacy benefits from his untimely death. And like all historical greats in sports, his legacy has grown over time. I think in a way he deserves this: to be immortalized in the world he excelled at, because he made the ultimate sacrifice. I know I'm guilty of this.

On the other hand, if we are going to take a hard look at look what both these drivers have accomplished, it can legitimately be argued that Vettel is as good as, if not better, than Senna. Not saying I agree, but then I'm biased.

If we compare Vettel to Senna at 25 years old, I do think Vettel gets the nod.

Edited by Winter98, 10 January 2013 - 07:59.


#509 aditya-now

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:59

I guess you must be the spiritual and transcendental kind of guy to see that stuff. Senna´s "light", the shivers when seeing a yellow helmet inside a red/white McLaren... what´s that crap all about? Does anyone really think that this stuff means anything at all when evaluating a driver? :confused:

What was great about Senna was his raw qualifying speed and his steel balls in unknown conditions. Let´s talk about actual performances and abilities please.


The spiritual dimension is always there, and it can be a performance factor as well.

The difference between Senna and Vettel is, that Senna spoke openly about it (here a great interview between Denis Jenkinson and Ayrton Senna) while you always see Seb meditating/concentrating/visualizing ahead of Grands Prix, but he never talks about what he is doing.

Of course, Seb gives hints every now and then about "never stop believing" which can be interpreted "harmlessly" or an indication that Vettel is into inner things as well. His application of mind power speaks for itself - Alonso for one is great in that field but so far Vettel always had the better end.

So mind power and higher consciousness as a performance factor are definitely of interest, as the studies on the "flow effect" show, and IMHO Senna was possibly the greatest of them all in this field, while Seb definitely has some spark and a special clarity as well.


#510 Rinehart

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:37

Quite frankly, Vettel would not have survived the era of Stewart, if he drove then like he does today (e.g. Spa, Turkey, Monza, Suzuka).

#511 mnmracer

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:47

Quite frankly, Vettel would not have survived the era of Stewart, if he drove then like he does today (e.g. Spa, Turkey, Monza, Suzuka).

Though neither would Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton have.

Edited by mnmracer, 10 January 2013 - 10:47.


#512 jj2728

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:30

Senna and Clark yes, Villeneuve no. Gilles Villeneuve is still, to this day one of the most overrated drivers of all time. In a 5 year career, as long as Vettel's, he accomplished nothing. He was constantly beaten by teammates, and while he was fast on his day, he was more error-prone than Grosjean. Yes. Gilles Villeneuve is the golden example of a driver with an immortalized reputation due his death. To say that he was a benchmark of even one year, let alone an era is delusional.

Yes, while unlike Villeneuve, Senna deserves to be called a legend, he too is overrated due his death It's getting quite ridiculously annoying when people single him out as the sole greatest driver of all time. He was no better than Alonso, Vettel or Hamilton are today.


Then you never saw Villeneuve race, obviously. He was NOT constantly beaten by teammates. He allowed Scheckter to take the '79 title as per their agreement. He outdrove his higly touted teammate Pironi. I'd like to know where you get your info. More error prone than Grosjean? Laughable at best. His reputation was there well before his death, I was around back then, I saw him race. I find it ridiculously annoying that people think a driver is overrated because he died on track.
Having said that, Vettel is in a league of his own at the moment. A driver does not win 3 WDCs on the trot by not being so. As good as Senna? I don't know. Conversely one could ask the question was Senna as good as Vettel is? Whose to say?

Edited by jj2728, 10 January 2013 - 11:47.


#513 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:45

The spiritual dimension is always there, and it can be a performance factor as well.

The difference between Senna and Vettel is, that Senna spoke openly about it (here a great interview between Denis Jenkinson and Ayrton Senna) while you always see Seb meditating/concentrating/visualizing ahead of Grands Prix, but he never talks about what he is doing.

Of course, Seb gives hints every now and then about "never stop believing" which can be interpreted "harmlessly" or an indication that Vettel is into inner things as well. His application of mind power speaks for itself - Alonso for one is great in that field but so far Vettel always had the better end.

So mind power and higher consciousness as a performance factor are definitely of interest, as the studies on the "flow effect" show, and IMHO Senna was possibly the greatest of them all in this field, while Seb definitely has some spark and a special clarity as well.


I see why self-help writters still have a job and make money in 21st century. :drunk:

To me that "different people", "gives me shivers", "talk to God" stuff all sounds like big piece of useless yada-yada that will only stick on the dumb and transcendental kind of guy. Do not confuse that and mix it up with visualizing laps and concentration exercises, these are effective ways to keep the right mindset and a correct level of stress just prior to competition.

If you want to talk about how good two guys were, let´s talk about skill, speed, consistency, racecraft and that stuff, and leave charisma and off-track antics and that crap out.



#514 Coops3

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:44

Senna was an amazing driver, but Vettel isnt behind him at all in my opinion. First of all, different times, drivers made bigger difference back then. Also the most common thing about people that die in accidents is:

Their skill is exaggerated.


I don't want to be disrespectful for anyone, especially for such an amazing driver as Senna, but that's pretty common, that people that are already dead, and that died in accidents are always a bit hyped (for example Cliff Burton from Metallica if we consider non drivers).

and that's pretty common. If Schumacer woudl die in accident (thanks god he didnt) he would be like on par with god etc.



For me, personally, Vettel might be as good as Senna, but it is hard t compare them due to fact that cars changed dramatically and all gismos as well.


This is a tricky subject, but for what it's worth, I agree with you.

#515 BoschKurve

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 14:10

What proper arguments have you provided for Senna being better than Vettel?

I have already stated mine - Vettel, within the 5 years he has been in F1, has accomplished as much as Senna had in 10 years - 3 world championships. Vettel has done this within a much shorter period of time, he's also faced off against great rivals such as Alonso and Hamilton. Likewise, he has done his achievements at a much younger age, with considerably less experience.

Again, give me one good argument to why Senna should be rated higher; and don't just say: "he gives me chills when he drives." Give me a proper, constructed argument.

You are among one of the people that stretched this debate to 13 pages by doing nothing but stating and repeating your opinion, over and over again. Surely you didn't expect a quality response?


I tend not to expect a quality response from someone who deigns to tell everyone else what they should really be thinking on a subjective matter.

You want to believe what you want to believe, and I'm not going to change your mind for you, nor do I have any interest. The interesting thing to me is I specifically stated that I was giving personal feelings on particular subjects regarding Senna, and for some reason you have this inability to accept that.

His record spoke for itself. What he did on the track spoke for itself. He managed to do things in a race car that no one else could even do. He was considered by his peers --you know the ones who actually raced against him instead of sitting behind a keyboard like some quasi-thought police-- to be the best, and fastest driver among everyone. Sure someone could be faster for a given race, but no one had the consistency to do what he did for a decade. His technical understanding of the car was unmatched. He demolished every teammate he had in qualifying. He had 6 wins in a midfield team --yes Lotus was a midfield team at that time. If you want to consider a guy who took 65 pole positions, and 41 race wins in just over 10 seasons as overrated, knock yourself out. Just don't start telling me how I should think ok?

#516 Kyo

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 14:40

What proper arguments have you provided for Senna being better than Vettel?

I have already stated mine - Vettel, within the 5 years he has been in F1, has accomplished as much as Senna had in 10 years - 3 world championships. Vettel has done this within a much shorter period of time, he's also faced off against great rivals such as Alonso and Hamilton. Likewise, he has done his achievements at a much younger age, with considerably less experience.

Again, give me one good argument to why Senna should be rated higher; and don't just say: "he gives me chills when he drives." Give me a proper, constructed argument.

You are among one of the people that stretched this debate to 13 pages by doing nothing but stating and repeating your opinion, over and over again. Surely you didn't expect a quality response?

So a driver is just as good as his number of championships? but didn't you just bumped the top 5 thread to say

Regardless of that. At this very moment, point and time, my top 10 are:

1.) Alonso
2.) Hamilton
3.) Vettel
4.) Raikkonen
5.) Button
6.) Rosberg

Webber, Hulkenburg, Perez and Massa round up the top 10 in no particular order.

How come do you rate Alonso 2xWDC, and Hamilton 1xWDC ahead of Vettel? Or the number of WDC are just worth when you are comparing Seb to Ayrton?

Senna was an amazing driver, but Vettel isnt behind him at all in my opinion. First of all, different times, drivers made bigger difference back then. Also the most common thing about people that die in accidents is:

Their skill is exaggerated.


I don't want to be disrespectful for anyone, especially for such an amazing driver as Senna, but that's pretty common, that people that are already dead, and that died in accidents are always a bit hyped (for example Cliff Burton from Metallica if we consider non drivers).

and that's pretty common. If Schumacer woudl die in accident (thanks god he didnt) he would be like on par with god etc.



For me, personally, Vettel might be as good as Senna, but it is hard t compare them due to fact that cars changed dramatically and all gismos as well.


More than 30 drivers died in F1 accidents let alone the ones that died in other situations, but How many of their names do you even remember?

#517 schubacca

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 15:01

I don't know if Sebastian is as good as Ayrton but I would love if he raced for Ferrari one day when Alonso's time is up. Alonso is old news anyway.

Sebastian Vettel looks like the future of F1, with OR without the best car/package. He's better than Michael at Michael's age at the time. Can he build a team around him like Michael? Time will tell. I DOUBT it but on the other hand I believe he's faster and that might even out the politics.

Remember when he won Monza in the rain? People were just shaking their heads in disbelief. Well...doubters...he MIGHT be the REAL DEAL.

Soon LdM's and Alonso's time will be over (two years tops). Sebastian for the future? Baby Jesus!


The age think is a little misleading because nowadays individuals in their late teens are driving F1 cars....

Senna started F1 at 24 I think....



#518 BoschKurve

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 16:36

The age think is a little misleading because nowadays individuals in their late teens are driving F1 cars....

Senna started F1 at 24 I think....


He did, and drivers in the past did not drive F1 cars at some of the ages we are seeing now.

It was abnormal to see someone very young in a F1 car. There's a reason what Ricardo Rodriguez did at his first F1 race at Monza in 1961 is the stuff of legend.

#519 Gag Bueno

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 17:39

Poor Ascanelli... So his statement of "being touched by perfection" relative to the young Vettel ( who was, and still is, "work in progress" ) and Senna is branded as "melodramatic" by the OP, but reading same of the later posts, one should start to wonder how he dared to mention a "normal human being" like Vettel in the same sentence with the self-luminous, shiver-causing half-deity "Gould-Lipatti-Richter-Mozart-SENNA" ( a couple of them must be turning over in their graves ... ). Even having the chance to follow F1 pretty close in the 80ies / early 90ties I can't absolutely remember the existence of such a creature.
And I think Ascanelli has a point, since Vettel is "en route" to have similar achievements as Senna (the racing driver...), like being one of the fastest drivers around for a long time, maybe (if he has some luck) the fastest of them all for a shorter period and being remembered as one of the greats. And the whole mystical, "musical" and melodramatic stuff should be praised elsewhere, a discussion forum should be kept secular IMO.

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#520 Kingshark

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 18:32

So a driver is just as good as his number of championships? but didn't you just bumped the top 5 thread to say


How come do you rate Alonso 2xWDC, and Hamilton 1xWDC ahead of Vettel? Or the number of WDC are just worth when you are comparing Seb to Ayrton?

Because you can directly compare Alonso and Hamilton to Vettel, as they are driving in the same era. Note that last season, in 2012, I believe Alonso and Hamilton have performed slighly better than Vettel. However, in 2011 Vettel performed better than Alonso, and crushed Hamilton.

Vettel from 2011 = Alonso from 2012 or 2006 IMO.

However, when it comes down to comparing Senna to Vettel, there is no direct comparison between the two as they both drove in totally different time periods; and in that case, the best, and often only way to compare the drivers are via achievements. Nonetheless, I would not be surprised that in 10 years from now, Vettel will probably have double the championships, and twice the wins that Senna achieved. Unfortunately for him, he will never actually be rated higher because quite frankly, Senna is immortalized and overrated due his death. The Senna movie and documentary just fueled the fire even more.

#521 Kyo

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 20:11

Because you can directly compare Alonso and Hamilton to Vettel, as they are driving in the same era. Note that last season, in 2012, I believe Alonso and Hamilton have performed slighly better than Vettel. However, in 2011 Vettel performed better than Alonso, and crushed Hamilton.

Vettel from 2011 = Alonso from 2012 or 2006 IMO.

However, when it comes down to comparing Senna to Vettel, there is no direct comparison between the two as they both drove in totally different time periods; and in that case, the best, and often only way to compare the drivers are via achievements. Nonetheless, I would not be surprised that in 10 years from now, Vettel will probably have double the championships, and twice the wins that Senna achieved. Unfortunately for him, he will never actually be rated higher because quite frankly, Senna is immortalized and overrated due his death. The Senna movie and documentary just fueled the fire even more.

Makes no sense. You're saying you can compare Vettel and Alonso measuring their performance instead of number of achievements and say one is better than other. So you come to conclusion that the one with less WDC is better. Then you compare Senna and Vettel by their achievements and comes to conclusion that Vettel is better. But if you had to compare Senna and Alonso you would deemed Senna as the better driver since the only way is by comparing WDCs. Doesn't really work.
And poor Stirling Moss, wouldn't even make the top 25 F1 drivers.

Better keep using the argument of how Senna is immortalized and overrated by his death even though this argument is based on nothing but feeling (wait, wasn't you asking for objective arguments?) and it doesn't explain why Ayrton instead of all the other drivers that died.

#522 Winter98

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 20:25

...poor Stirling Moss, wouldn't even make the top 25 F1 drivers.


Actually, that's not true.

Back in Moss' day, drivers often competed in events outside F1. So Stirling Moss had a very impressive career, winning various prestigious events. Same with Clark, who of course won Indy back when it meant something.

Today's F1 drivers are specialists, racing only in F1, so that is what we base our ratings on.

Hope this helps.

#523 Kyo

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 20:54

Actually, that's not true.

Back in Moss' day, drivers often competed in events outside F1. So Stirling Moss had a very impressive career, winning various prestigious events. Same with Clark, who of course won Indy back when it meant something.

Today's F1 drivers are specialists, racing only in F1, so that is what we base our ratings on.

Hope this helps.

I was sarcastic (tried to be since it seems I failed...).

If we used nº of WDCs to rate F1 drivers like Kingshark used, Moss would be behind every WDC and so, outside a top 25 F1 driver even though he do deserves to be.

#524 Winter98

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 21:23

I was sarcastic (tried to be since it seems I failed...).


Doh! Sorry.

If we used nº of WDCs to rate F1 drivers like Kingshark used, Moss would be behind every WDC and so, outside a top 25 F1 driver even though he do deserves to be.


But, as I pointed out, it is a valid way of ranking current F1 drivers because they don't do anything but F1. Wasn't Senna's career exclusively F1 or F1 feeder series? Then it is fair to rank him against other drivers who careers were exclusively F1 by WDCs won.

So your Moss argument doesn't hold when comparing Senna to today's F1 drivers.

#525 Kyo

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 21:49

Doh! Sorry.



But, as I pointed out, it is a valid way of ranking current F1 drivers because they don't do anything but F1. Wasn't Senna's career exclusively F1 or F1 feeder series? Then it is fair to rank him against other drivers who careers were exclusively F1 by WDCs won.

So your Moss argument doesn't hold when comparing Senna to today's F1 drivers.

I believe we are going of topic here, but well, when I say Top F1 drivers I take in account what they did as F1 drivers, not Indy, Rally, Touring and so on, but if you are ranking them just as drivers, then it's a hell lot harder.

#526 Winter98

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 21:55

I believe we are going of topic here, but well, when I say Top F1 drivers I take in account what they did as F1 drivers, not Indy, Rally, Touring and so on, but if you are ranking them just as drivers, then it's a hell lot harder.


So long as you are comparing drivers whose entire careers were in F1, then using WDCs to rank them is valid argument. ie the Moss/Clark argument doesn't apply.

So using WDCs to compare Vettel and Senna should be valid imo.

Edited by Winter98, 10 January 2013 - 22:08.


#527 Kyo

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 22:46

So long as you are comparing drivers whose entire careers were in F1, then using WDCs to rank them is valid argument. ie the Moss/Clark argument doesn't apply.

So using WDCs to compare Vettel and Senna should be valid imo.

How do you rank Moss, Clark, Senna, Vettel or any other driver as F1 drivers? To rank them as F1 drivers makes no difference if they raced other series or not because you only take into account their F1 results, and in this scenario (using WDCs to rank them) you have Moss outside the top 25, ranked behind Button, Damon, Jacques, Hulme and so on.

If you think it's valid to use just WDCs like this it's ok too, as long as you use WDCs to rank other drivers as well. Thats not what Kingshark did.

#528 Winter98

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 23:56

How do you rank Moss, Clark, Senna, Vettel or any other driver as F1 drivers? To rank them as F1 drivers makes no difference if they raced other series or not because you only take into account their F1 results, and in this scenario (using WDCs to rank them) you have Moss outside the top 25, ranked behind Button, Damon, Jacques, Hulme and so on.


Moss and Clark were from a different era, Both were brilliant. I like Clark better, but then I got to watch him race at Indy, the one and only open wheel race that was broadcast where I lived.

I rate Senna a bit ahead of Vettel because although they are tied in WDCs, Sennas held the Pole record, and other records as well I believe.

Comparing Moss and Clark to Vettel and Senna is impossible for me, Not only are they from different eras, but I simply haven't seen enough of Moss and Clark.

Edited by Winter98, 11 January 2013 - 00:13.


#529 1Devil1

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 00:38

Makes no sense. You're saying you can compare Vettel and Alonso measuring their performance instead of number of achievements and say one is better than other. So you come to conclusion that the one with less WDC is better. Then you compare Senna and Vettel by their achievements and comes to conclusion that Vettel is better. But if you had to compare Senna and Alonso you would deemed Senna as the better driver since the only way is by comparing WDCs. Doesn't really work.
And poor Stirling Moss, wouldn't even make the top 25 F1 drivers.

Better keep using the argument of how Senna is immortalized and overrated by his death even though this argument is based on nothing but feeling (wait, wasn't you asking for objective arguments?) and it doesn't explain why Ayrton instead of all the other drivers that died.


I can't see that the argument Senna is immortalized is based "on feelings", furthermore it think it's a fact - just look around this thread you find explanations that Senna had the different spark, the magic others as for example Vettel do not have. Senna is mythified, because of his dead, because of his character, because of his aggressive style he had. Nobody would deny he was a special driver, he is in my personal best three, but that he is untouchable in the eyes of a lot of Senna fans, has a lot to do with his dead. He has god status - and you can't argue against that. Put him not on position one and your have no clue what you talking about.

#530 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 00:47

Until Vettel retires we can't look back with perspective to see if he 'enlightend' us as the great Senna did.
You really can't argue with 3 X WDC though. Those numbers stack against the greats.
Ascanelli worked with both, so his opinion counts in my book.

Edited by InSearchOfThe, 11 January 2013 - 00:55.


#531 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 01:00

I guess you must be the spiritual and transcendental kind of guy to see that stuff. Senna´s "light", the shivers when seeing a yellow helmet inside a red/white McLaren... what´s that crap all about? Does anyone really think that this stuff means anything at all when evaluating a driver? :confused:

What was great about Senna was his raw qualifying speed and his steel balls in unknown conditions. Let´s talk about actual performances and abilities please.



Isn't that what F1 is all about? Powerful performances by the best drivers on the planet, in the fastest cars, with everything on the line all creating these vivid images and emotions that last generations!

It's not 'crap'. It's why we watch!

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 11 January 2013 - 01:06.


#532 Jejking

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 01:25

Until Vettel retires we can't look back with perspective to see if he 'enlightend' us as the great Senna did.
You really can't argue with 3 X WDC though. Those numbers stack against the greats.
Ascanelli worked with both, so his opinion counts in my book.

Senna's titles came at the age of 28, 30 and 31 against Prost who was respectively 33, 34, while also fought off a hard charging Mansell who was 38 and had to come back from unreliability to the point where everything fell apart and Senna claimed his third WDC.

Vettel had to fight with Webber (pressure on and off as he sunk away from the true title fight, giving him the advantage of being a dark horse) when he was 23, compared to 34 for his team mate and 29 for Alonso. He won because those two screwed it up and that's good. In his second WDC year, 2011, there simply was no opposition and he did win with a technological advantage, despite some serious flukes in Spa and Turkey. He deserved to win, because the opposition screwed up just as many times. But I don't rate that title very highly because of the current low-speed tyre control era. 2012 is a different story, he had to match Alonso (25 vs 31 years) and left Webber behind. That's good but he still was saved by a resurrection of his team, although we can say Alonso didn't get magical in the final races with his slightly off the pace equipment. His last title is his best yet, but there's a bit of luck involved when he was on it during each swing of the pendulum. I don't see him coming out as the greatest of all time at this rate tbh.

#533 BoschKurve

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 01:39

Isn't that what F1 is all about? Powerful performances by the best drivers on the planet, in the fastest cars, with everything on the line all creating these vivid images and emotions that last generations!

It's not 'crap'. It's why we watch!


Glad to see you understand where some of us are coming from on that front.

What makes F1 sensational to watch is when you see those powerful drives or moments that evoke emotion in us. Really, if it were a bunch of a robots driving around a track, I don't think too many would care to watch long term.

It's the stuff like watching Senna at Brazil in '91 emotionally/mentally/physically spent unable to get out of the car, or watching Villeneuve flying through Monaco with his rear tire kissing the guardrail in the middle of an opposite wheel lock through a corner that makes the investment into the sport worth it. No other race series does, or can do that for me.

#534 aditya-now

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:43

I see why self-help writters still have a job and make money in 21st century. :drunk:

To me that "different people", "gives me shivers", "talk to God" stuff all sounds like big piece of useless yada-yada that will only stick on the dumb and transcendental kind of guy. Do not confuse that and mix it up with visualizing laps and concentration exercises, these are effective ways to keep the right mindset and a correct level of stress just prior to competition.

If you want to talk about how good two guys were, let´s talk about skill, speed, consistency, racecraft and that stuff, and leave charisma and off-track antics and that crap out.


Just because it is not feasible to all, the connection between concentration and visualization exercises and the consequent further development to universal and transcendental consciousness (through the steps of dharana, dhyana, samadhi, if you take the yoga path, for example) is real and well proven for thousands of years. The Indian yogis, the Taoists, the Christian mystics and other traditions bear witness to that.

Why discount the possibility that a driver has such mystic experiences? Just because they are not accessible to all?

When Ascanelli speaks about "being touched by perfection", of course to him it mostly will have meant technical feedback, racecraft and other such down to earth realities. However, perfection lies also in a drivers mindset and that which goes beyond it. Notably Senna sported the slogan "Driven To Perfection".

F1 drivers always had a special mindset and some of them a developed spirituality. Senna and Wurz being examples, we know it because they openly spoke about it. Vettel obviously does exercises, but does not speak about it. Stewart had an expanded consciousness, not in the sense like Senna, that he would see himself and his car from above his helmet (thus an out-of-body-experience), but in the sense that Stewart could sense an oil puddle on the circuit already half a lap ahead - and he would slow down in time while other drivers would get on the puddle and slip from the track.

Nigel Mansell once was asked about the Senna out-of-body stuff and he said:"We all have such experiences but usually we don't speak about it". Simply put, driving consistently at such high speeds like an F1 driver for nearly 2 hours is a superb concentration exercise that elevates the spirit to another level.

It is not surprising that some armchair experts cannot fathom these states of consciousness and mix up "dumb and transcendental", which is a contradiction per se. But then, everyone can only speak about the things they experience.

#535 seahawk

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:53

It is about character. If you heard Senna talk about his driving it was emotional, if you hear Schumacher talking it is analytical. I bet that you could ask different drivers to describe the exact same situation on track and the result would be totally different. But it is also a result of changing times, what ones was a ride on the limit, can today be put down into a series of steering commands, where the ones awesome slide on the edge of driving suddenly turns into missing the apex by 5cm and braking 0,01 sec too late at corner entry.

Edited by seahawk, 11 January 2013 - 08:54.


#536 mnmracer

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:57

It doesn't really matter whether or not these experiences are real.
What matters is, it doesn't matter HOW a driver becomes as good as he does, it's about how good he becomes.

If Vettel drives better with a super clean style, then he is the better driver.
If Senna drives better because of god, then he is the better driver.

#537 Skinnyguy

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:21

Just because it is not feasible to all, the connection between concentration and visualization exercises and the consequent further development to universal and transcendental consciousness (through the steps of dharana, dhyana, samadhi, if you take the yoga path, for example) is real and well proven for thousands of years. The Indian yogis, the Taoists, the Christian mystics and other traditions bear witness to that.

Why discount the possibility that a driver has such mystic experiences? Just because they are not accessible to all?

When Ascanelli speaks about "being touched by perfection", of course to him it mostly will have meant technical feedback, racecraft and other such down to earth realities. However, perfection lies also in a drivers mindset and that which goes beyond it. Notably Senna sported the slogan "Driven To Perfection".

F1 drivers always had a special mindset and some of them a developed spirituality. Senna and Wurz being examples, we know it because they openly spoke about it. Vettel obviously does exercises, but does not speak about it. Stewart had an expanded consciousness, not in the sense like Senna, that he would see himself and his car from above his helmet (thus an out-of-body-experience), but in the sense that Stewart could sense an oil puddle on the circuit already half a lap ahead - and he would slow down in time while other drivers would get on the puddle and slip from the track.

Nigel Mansell once was asked about the Senna out-of-body stuff and he said:"We all have such experiences but usually we don't speak about it". Simply put, driving consistently at such high speeds like an F1 driver for nearly 2 hours is a superb concentration exercise that elevates the spirit to another level.

It is not surprising that some armchair experts cannot fathom these states of consciousness and mix up "dumb and transcendental", which is a contradiction per se. But then, everyone can only speak about the things they experience.


Sorry but I´m not joining your sect, bud. All that you wrote is people trying to make their job look cool. Riding 5 hours in a 150 men cycling pack certainly has you all that time on the edge and make you think bizarre stuff and use very complex decission patterns automatically, but making it sound as a mystic experience is very stupid. Spirit elevation my ass, it´s just stress and how your brain copes with it.

And no, dumb and transcendental is not exactly two opposites. Most often they go together. Soothsayers and other crap talkers make money thanks to transcendental people.

Senna was a extremelly skilled and brave driver. The rest, the talk with God mystic yada-yada is ornamentation for those naive enough to buy it.

#538 Skinnyguy

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:24

Isn't that what F1 is all about? Powerful performances by the best drivers on the planet, in the fastest cars, with everything on the line all creating these vivid images and emotions that last generations!

It's not 'crap'. It's why we watch!


Myths distort how much you rate someone. It´s perfectly OK for me that someone feels shiver because of whatever they do. I miss Schumacher flying around in a red helmet in a Ferrari. I miss V10 sound.

But if they try to sell me their reaction as an asset that elevates a driver/era above another, that´s just rubbish. V10 sounded great, and they were really cool, but I´m not stupid enough to come here and say that era was better "because it gave me shivers". There was no racing, cars couldn´t follow each other and 60% of the races were borefests. I liked that era but I won´t let nostalgia and my reactions affect reality. I like Räikkönen and his wins make me ecstatic, but I won´t try and sell my reactions as a reason of Räikkönen´s greatness :rolleyes:

Edited by Skinnyguy, 11 January 2013 - 15:32.


#539 BoschKurve

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 16:00

Sorry but I´m not joining your sect, bud. All that you wrote is people trying to make their job look cool. Riding 5 hours in a 150 men cycling pack certainly has you all that time on the edge and make you think bizarre stuff and use very complex decission patterns automatically, but making it sound as a mystic experience is very stupid. Spirit elevation my ass, it´s just stress and how your brain copes with it.

And no, dumb and transcendental is not exactly two opposites. Most often they go together. Soothsayers and other crap talkers make money thanks to transcendental people.

Senna was a extremelly skilled and brave driver. The rest, the talk with God mystic yada-yada is ornamentation for those naive enough to buy it.


I didn't know you had uncovered all the unknown secrets of the universe. But as seeing you have, can we expect a forthcoming book that details all of this? May I suggest a title: I've Got a Monopoly on the Truth

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#540 Kyo

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 18:09

I can't see that the argument Senna is immortalized is based "on feelings", furthermore it think it's a fact - just look around this thread you find explanations that Senna had the different spark, the magic others as for example Vettel do not have. Senna is mythified, because of his dead, because of his character, because of his aggressive style he had. Nobody would deny he was a special driver, he is in my personal best three, but that he is untouchable in the eyes of a lot of Senna fans, has a lot to do with his dead. He has god status - and you can't argue against that. Put him not on position one and your have no clue what you talking about.

Sorry, but this is no fact at all.

You can say Senna is mystified more often than not as a fact, but the reasons for that goes far beyond his death or you would have every dead driver being mystified as well.

Maybe the different spark, the magic, and the god status that some of his fans give to him are the same you hear from some people about Micheal Jordan or Pelé, and none of them are dead. Even between drivers we saw some others receiving god status by their fans. Before his comeback Schumacher fans believed he was immune to age and after 3 or 4 races would be trashing Rosberg like he did to others in his career. I even remember some fans in the earlies 2000's saying Schumacher would be WDC even if he was driving for a midfield team. Normally someone is mystified because other people see in them something unique, something they believe others could not achieve. Most of the time, it just means they are the ones that provoked the strongest emotions in those watching, not that they died.

#541 olliek88

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 18:16

Sorry but I´m not joining your sect, bud. All that you wrote is people trying to make their job look cool. Riding 5 hours in a 150 men cycling pack certainly has you all that time on the edge and make you think bizarre stuff and use very complex decission patterns automatically, but making it sound as a mystic experience is very stupid. Spirit elevation my ass, it´s just stress and how your brain copes with it.

And no, dumb and transcendental is not exactly two opposites. Most often they go together. Soothsayers and other crap talkers make money thanks to transcendental people.

Senna was a extremelly skilled and brave driver. The rest, the talk with God mystic yada-yada is ornamentation for those naive enough to buy it.


:up:


#542 prty

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 18:44

Vettel from 2011 = Alonso from 2012 or 2006 IMO.


Not even close. Alonso in 2006 didn't lose a single point because of a driving mistake in the whole season. And I don't think I need to say anything about 2012.

Vettel in 2011:




While the car was miles ahead of any other car.

#543 Winter98

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 18:54

...
While the car was (RBR) miles ahead of any other car.


And yet MW couldn't finish 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th.... in the WDC.

What made the difference this year was the RBR had a Vettel in it. He became the youngest 3 time WDC in history, while matching a feat only two of the greatest of all time could manage, securing his place as a legend of F1 at the tender age of 25.

That is why we are here discussing Ascanelli's quote that Vettel is as good as Senna.

#544 prty

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 19:13

And yet MW couldn't finish 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th.... in the WDC.

What made the difference this year was the RBR had a Vettel in it. He became the youngest 3 time WDC in history, while matching a feat only two of the greatest of all time could manage, securing his place as a legend of F1 at the tender age of 25.

That is why we are here discussing Ascanelli's quote that Vettel is as good as Senna.


Maybe Mark ran out of front wings.
But just to be on the same page here, are you trying to say that the Red Bull wasn't the best car by a margin in 2011?
Sure he's matching the statistics of the greats, but hardly the driving. Of course that can change over the years.

#545 Winter98

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 19:18

But just to be on the same page here, are you trying to say that the Red Bull wasn't the best car by a margin in 2011?


No, not saying that. I was referring to 2012, when Alonso was the second best driver, losing the WDC to Vettel in the final race. I thought you were talking about the 2012 RBR. My mistake.

Sure he's matching the statistics of the greats, but hardly the driving. Of course that can change over the years.


Some people have a different opinion, including someone who has worked intimately with both Senna and Vettel.

Edited by Winter98, 11 January 2013 - 19:38.


#546 LiJu914

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 19:28

Sorry, but this is no fact at all.

You can say Senna is mystified more often than not as a fact, but the reasons for that goes far beyond his death or you would have every dead driver being mystified as well.


Do you think, people would even remember drivers like Paletti or Ratzenberger nowadays? E.g. Can you spontaneously tell me the names of their teammates?

What about drivers like Clark, Rindt, Cevert, Peterson, Villeneuve or Bellof? I´m not saying, that they are overrated - but that they their kind of iconic status evolved (or at least became bigger) with their tragic and too early death. (There are of course much more famous example outside of F1, like James Dean, M.Monroe, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Elvis, John Lennon, Kurt Cobain to name a few)
I think it´s quite normal, that people have a different perception of somebody else, after he´d died.

And even in that case Senna´s is "special" (in sports).
In the earlier days death was - quite sadly - a normal part of F1. That became less and less. At the same time TV coverage and public interest grew enormously over time. Both develepmonts had reached a climax at that time. Before Imola there hadn´t been a fatal accident during a GP weekend for over a decade and then (hundreths of) millions of people have to witness the (by far) most successful active athlete of his sport dying on live-television. I guess that happened exactly one time in sports history.
So yes, i think that changed his image/status a little.

As you mentioned Schumacher briefly. Do you really think, people would have exactly the same perception of him, if he would´ve had a fatal accident sometime between - let´s say - 2001-2006?

Ps. To be clear: I don´t mean to say, that Senna´s driving skills are vastly overrated because of his death. That´d be nonsense.

Edited by LiJu914, 11 January 2013 - 19:51.


#547 BoschKurve

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:00

Do you think, people would even remember drivers like Paletti or Ratzenberger nowadays? E.g. Can you spontaneously tell me the names of their teammates?

What about drivers like Clark, Rindt, Cevert, Peterson, Villeneuve or Bellof? I´m not saying, that they are overrated - but that they their kind of iconic status evolved (or at least became bigger) with their tragic and too early death. (There are of course much more famous example outside of F1, like James Dean, M.Monroe, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Elvis, John Lennon, Kurt Cobain to name a few)
I think it´s quite normal, that people have a different perception of somebody else, after he´d died.

And even in that case Senna´s is "special" (in sports).
In the earlier days death was - quite sadly - a normal part of F1. That became less and less. At the same time TV coverage and public interest grew enormously over time. Both develepmonts had reached a climax at that time. Before Imola there hadn´t been a fatal accident during a GP weekend for over a decade and then (hundreths of) millions of people have to witness the (by far) most successful active athlete of his sport dying one live-television. I guess that happened exactly one time in sports history.
So yes, i think that changed his image/status a little.

As you mentioned Schumacher briefly. Do you really think, people would have exactly the same perception of him, if he would´ve had a fatal accident sometime between - let´s say - 2001-2006?

Ps. To be clear: I don´t mean to say, that Senna´s driving skills are vastly overrated because of his death. That´d be nonsense.


Regarding Ronnie Peterson and Stefan Bellof. I have two friends one of which lives in Sweden, the other in Germany. Ronnie is still remembered quite fondly in Sweden as he was someone they looked up to tremendously. But if you look more globally, for as fast as he was, he isn't remembered in the same way. If I recall the conversation I had with my friend regarding Bellof, he has occupies a similar space now too. But on a global scale Bellof's memory has been diminished greatly since his death. He has his fans still and those who talk about him, but for a guy that had the speed he did --including that monster lap at the Nurburgring-- he's more of a footnote in racing history. Although had he not been driving that hopelessly underpowered Tyrrell-Cosworth, who knows how he might have been remembered long term.

#548 jjcale

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:43

Sorry but I´m not joining your sect, bud. All that you wrote is people trying to make their job look cool. Riding 5 hours in a 150 men cycling pack certainly has you all that time on the edge and make you think bizarre stuff and use very complex decission patterns automatically, but making it sound as a mystic experience is very stupid. Spirit elevation my ass, it´s just stress and how your brain copes with it.

And no, dumb and transcendental is not exactly two opposites. Most often they go together. Soothsayers and other crap talkers make money thanks to transcendental people.

Senna was a extremelly skilled and brave driver. The rest, the talk with God mystic yada-yada is ornamentation for those naive enough to buy it.


Dont write off stuff just because you dont understand it ..... until someone can explain how we can know someone is looking at us - even when the person is behind us - I will keep an open mind about some of this stuff.

Super fighter pilots "see the future"

It is not impossible that the best drivers like Senna and SV access all of their "faculties" whilst others do not....

Edited by jjcale, 11 January 2013 - 20:44.


#549 BoschKurve

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 20:58

Dont write off stuff just because you dont understand it ..... until someone can explain how we can know someone is looking at us - even when the person is behind us - I will keep an open mind about some of this stuff.

Super fighter pilots "see the future"

It is not impossible that the best drivers like Senna and SV access all of their "faculties" whilst others do not....


I find it so incredibly pointless to try and debate what Senna saw as we did not experience it through his eyes. His concentration and focus was extraordinary, so I have no idea how high of a thought level he achieved when in a race car. I can only assume it was at a level that is incomprehensible to most people. Most people do not do anything on a daily basis that requires the sort of focus to drive a racing car as fast as Senna did consistently.

Vettel does have a tremendous focus as well because to have to drive through a field at two races to keep your championship points lead would be enough to cause many drivers to have a mental lapse.

One of the things that set Senna and now Vettel ahead of everyone else is their mental ability. Kimi Raikkonen might be the most skilled driver on the grid currently, but he doesn't have the focus. Imagine if he had the focus that Vettel or Senna did?

#550 olliek88

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 21:00

Dont write off stuff just because you dont understand it ..... until someone can explain how we can know someone is looking at us - even when the person is behind us - I will keep an open mind about some of this stuff.

Super fighter pilots "see the future"

It is not impossible that the best drivers like Senna and SV access all of their "faculties" whilst others do not....


Did you not listen to the pilots? They take everything into account (speed, altitude etc) and coupled with 1000 of hours of practice and thinking about it all the different situations they find themselves in they know that doing "X" will, in all probability result in "Y", some pilots have a better grasp of this than others. Its not about being able to see into the future or "know" whats going to happen, its about knowing the probabilities of doing something.

Does a driver back out of a overtake because they have some magical 6th sense or because they know that the chances are it will result in a crash or not come off? And visa versa if they try a move, its because they have assessed the situation and based on previous experience know that its more than likely going to work.

Also, when some one is behind you, they have probably walked into the room/house/building and more than likely opened a door at some point, this results in a (minor) change in the rooms atmosphere which your body reacts too (the old caveman instincts) and causes you to look around for "predators" (not the alien ones). Its nature and millions of years of evolution, not some spiritual "stuff."

Sorry, this is way OT, i should really try and sign up for the paddock club forum thing!

Edited by olliek88, 11 January 2013 - 21:03.