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Vettel as good as Senna, says Ascanelli


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#651 apoka

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:41

One more thing to consider is that Vettel managed to beat Alonso by just 3 points. !!! I wonder how big of a margin Alonso would have get on Vettel if he would have been able to score points in Spa and Japan , it would have been an embarrassment to lose to a guy in a clearly inferior car

Hamilton lost to drivers with probably inferior cars this year and it certainly was not an embarassment.

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#652 gillesthegenius

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:21

One more thing to consider is that Vettel managed to beat Alonso by just 3 points. !!! I wonder how big of a margin Alonso would have get on Vettel if he would have been able to score points in Spa and Japan , it would have been an embarrassment to lose to a guy in a clearly inferior car


Not as embarrasing as losing to, lets say, a rookie. :D In any case how convenient is it for you to completely forget about the 42 points Vettel lost to Alonso as a result of his two alternator failures?

Edited by gillesthegenius, 26 January 2013 - 08:23.


#653 azda

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:51

Not as embarrasing as losing to, lets say, a rookie. :D In any case how convenient is it for you to completely forget about the 42 points Vettel lost to Alonso as a result of his two alternator failures?


Alonso lost just as many get taken out by lotus idiots. So it was even.

#654 choyothe

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:41

Obviously.¨

Alonso lost just as many get taken out by lotus idiots. So it was even.


Vettel at Malaysia = Alonso at Spa. Suzuka was 100 % Alonso's fault.

#655 azda

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:44

Obviously.¨



Vettel at Malaysia = Alonso at Spa. Suzuka was 100 % Alonso's fault.


Vettel failed to leave enough room while overtaking a car and make a mistake. Suzuka was a race start with Alonso 98% of Kimi the whole time, and had right of way. Very different situations.

#656 choyothe

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:49

Vettel failed to leave enough room while overtaking a car and make a mistake. Suzuka was a race start with Alonso 98% of Kimi the whole time, and had right of way. Very different situations.


Karthikeyan failed to leave enough room while getting overtaken and actually cutting back to the middle to hit Vettel. Obvious penalty.

Alonso had no right of way to continue moving to the left with another car there and no one pushing him. That would've (or at least should've) been an obvious penalty for him had Kimi lost control and been the one to retire bc of that, thankfully only Alonso suffered bc of his mistake.

#657 Higli

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:13

Suzuka was a race start with Alonso 98% of Kimi the whole time, and had right of way. Very different situations.

What Alonso did at Suzuka was very similar to what Grosjean did at Spa. No double standards please.


#658 joshb

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 13:28

What Alonso did at Suzuka was very similar to what Grosjean did at Spa. No double standards please.


and what Alonso did at Monaco but got away with unscathed- unlike several cars behind him

#659 Winter98

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 14:18

Piquet won 3 titles, yet he is rated a tier below Jim Clark by most people. I guess your theory does not hold up.


Of course it holds up.

Drivers who died during their career are given the benefit of potential WDCs. Think Senna and Clark. Drivers from pre F1-specialist days are given the benefit of Championships they won outside of F1. Think Clark at Indianapolis (back when it meant something).

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#660 Winter98

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 14:31

Sadly this charade might continue for a lot longer because Vettel is clearly not the type of driver interested in a real challenge or test.


Yeah, because the other greats of F1 are know for having hopped into a slower car to prove themselves. Who can forget Fangio or Senna choosing....oh wait....

What's Vettel supposed to do? Pull an Alonso, and prove for six consecutive years he can't win the WDC in anything but the fastest car?

#661 Winter98

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 14:42

This is the big point. If Vettel really is so good and special, why did he only beat Alonso by 3 points with such a clearly superior car?


Feel free to believe the politicking about the relative merits of Alonso's car, I don't.

It had great reliability, and was a rocketship on the starts. Massa proved it had the speed to win the championship down the stretch, Alonso failed to deliver.

Edited by Winter98, 26 January 2013 - 14:43.


#662 boldhakka

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 14:48

What's Vettel supposed to do? Pull an Alonso, and prove for six consecutive years he can't win the WDC in anything but the fastest car?


:lol:

#663 jj2728

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 14:56

Of course it holds up.

Drivers who died during their career are given the benefit of potential WDCs. Think Senna and Clark. Drivers from pre F1-specialist days are given the benefit of Championships they won outside of F1. Think Clark at Indianapolis (back when it meant something).


No, I don't think so. I've never taken into account potential WDCs when determining how good drivers such as Clark or Senna were. That Clark was able to win, as was Moss, in almost anything he drove is a factor as far as I'm concerned. Take Gilles Villeneuve for example, he never won a WDC yet many people conclude that he rates right up there amongst the greats because of his ability behind the wheel.

#664 prty

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 14:58

What's Vettel supposed to do? Pull an Alonso, and prove for six consecutive years he can't win the WDC in anything but the fastest car?


Actually he proved the opposite, the point differences were so small against (much) better cars that the WDC could have gone either way. Until Vettel does that... :wave:

#665 choyothe

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:14

What's Vettel supposed to do? Pull an Alonso, and prove for six consecutive years he can't win the WDC in anything but the fastest car?


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#666 Winter98

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:20

No, I don't think so. I've never taken into account potential WDCs when determining how good drivers such as Clark or Senna were.


Of course you do, you just don't realize it. Senna was a great driver, and chances are he would have won between zero and three to five more championships. So take the median, two, add it to the three he won, and you get five championships. That's how great he was.

Clark won Indianapolis back when it meant something because he was a great driver. (Wasn't he the first Euro to win it in ages?) He won the British Touring Car championship. He won an F1 championship. That's how great he was.



#667 Winter98

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:22

Actually he proved the opposite, the point differences were so small against (much) better cars that the WDC could have gone either way. Until Vettel does that... :wave:


Sorry, I don't buy into the politicking on the relative merits of the cars. Feel free to do so yourself.

The facts are Alonso had a car that was good enough to be within a couple of points of winning the championship in both 2010 and 2012. The facts are he failed to get the job done.

Edited by Winter98, 26 January 2013 - 15:26.


#668 aditya-now

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:24

Of course you do, you just don't realize it. Senna was a great driver, and chances are he would have won between zero and three to five more championships. So take the median, two, add it to the three he won, and you get five championships. That's how great he was.

Clark won Indianapolis back when it meant something because he was a great driver. (Wasn't he the first Euro to win it in ages?) He won the British Touring Car championship. He won an F1 championship. That's how great he was.


Clark won two F1 championships but that does not show how great he was - he was much greater than that. This thing with counting how many WDCs someone has won will never show you the greatness of the driver.

#669 prty

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:27

Sorry, I don't buy into the politicking on the relative merits of the cars. Feel free to do so yourself.


Are you saying that the Red Bull was worse than the Ferrari? it's just laughable :lol:

#670 Winter98

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:46

Clark won two F1 championships but that does not show how great he was - he was much greater than that. This thing with counting how many WDCs someone has won will never show you the greatness of the driver.


Doh! Thanks for spotting my brain fart aditya. :)

Two WDCs, Indianapolis, a British Touring Car championship. A career cut short, a career in which he probably would have won between zero and three or four more WDCs.

Like Senna, he was an amazing driver, so good that it is likely he would have won more WDCs, WDCs that he, like Senna, gets credit for in historical rankings.

#671 Gag Bueno

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:46

And I thought Ascanelli spoke about perfection ( In Vettel's case would probably mean potential, since he was beginning his career at Toro Rosso when they worked together ) and not about the famous so-called "greatness"...

Would also be difficult for the good Giorgio, back in 2010, to mention the 2012 season, the Ferrari F2012, the RB8 and Alonso's "flawless" last season...

So, after "Mia san Mia" and "Ja gö da schaust!", it would be not bad if somebody does some "rama dama" in this thread...

Edited by Gag Bueno, 26 January 2013 - 15:51.


#672 Winter98

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:54

Are you saying that the Red Bull was worse than the Ferrari? it's just laughable :lol:


I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, certainly not intentionally. Could you please quote where I did?

I just don't believe the Ferrari was the comparative dog as so many supporters of other drivers are trying to make out.

Do you think Vettel, or any driver, should get credit for helping to develop and setup the car they drive?

Edited by Winter98, 26 January 2013 - 15:57.


#673 BoschKurve

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:06

Karthikeyan failed to leave enough room while getting overtaken and actually cutting back to the middle to hit Vettel. Obvious penalty.


Good to see people are still believing that Vettel wasn't at fault. :rotfl:

#674 aditya-now

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:09

And I thought Ascanelli spoke about perfection ( In Vettel's case would probably mean potential, since he was beginning his career at Toro Rosso when they worked together ) and not about the famous so-called "greatness"...

Would also be difficult for the good Giorgio, back in 2010, to mention the 2012 season, the Ferrari F2012, the RB8 and Alonso's "flawless" last season...

So, after "Mia san Mia" and "Ja gö da schaust!", it would be not bad if somebody does some "rama dama" in this thread...


Ascanelli's quote goes back to 2008, as far as I know.


#675 Skinnyguy

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:11

Good to see people are still believing that Vettel wasn't at fault. :rotfl:


Yes, it´s a good thing, no doubt. It means people understand a bit about the sport they´re watching. Most of them anyway.

#676 BoschKurve

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:17

Yes, it´s a good thing, no doubt. It means people understand a bit about the sport they´re watching. Most of them anyway.


Right.

Because after all, penalties have all been fairly given out, and Vettel has never shown a spatial awareness problem on the track. :lol: :lol:

#677 Skinnyguy

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:26

Because after all, penalties have all been fairly given out, and Vettel has never shown a spatial awareness problem on the track. :lol: :lol:


Look mate, it´s very easy: Vettel had on his left a gap of about 1´5/2 car widths when the contact happened. If someone can´t hold a car in that gap in the middle of a damn straight, and well passed the speed where you´re traction limited and you might slide, then it´s clearly him at fault, no matter how many LOL smylies you post.



#678 Gag Bueno

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:36

Ascanelli's quote goes back to 2008, as far as I know.


Ascanelli's "enlightment" may go back to 2008, but the quote is from 2010, as far as I can understand the Autosport report. Not that it changes much the fact of the statement being pre-2012...

Edited by Gag Bueno, 26 January 2013 - 16:38.


#679 aditya-now

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:40

Ascanelli's "enlightment" may go back to 2008, but the quote is from 2010, as far as I can understand the Autosport report. Not that it changes much the fact of being a pre-2012 statement...


Ola, Galvão

you guys over at Globo TV obviously still hold a grudge with Ascanelli because he did not say "Vettel is as good as Piquet!", eh? Also, are you still going to comment the F1 races in 2013 - or have they retired you? Just wondering, because you spend more and more time on forums...

Que tem Globo tem tudo!

 ;)

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#680 mnmracer

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:55

Someone needs a reality check.

He is too often out paced by his journey man team mate, often for long periods, which is something that does not happen with the true great drivers. When they get outpaced its a rare thing, while with Vettel its extended periods. True great drivers would never be trailing mark webber on points until Spa like Vettel did last year.

Fact: Vettel was out-paced three times this year by Webber, just as often as Alonso was by Massa.

Vettel cannot adapt to a car, he requires a specific handling characteristic to be fast otherwise he is mediorce and comfortably beaten by the likes of Webber.

You are confusing preference with ability.
Fact: Vettel has impressed in mid-field cars, front cars, grooved tires, slicks, with DRS, without DRS, with KERS, without KERS, with EBD, without EBD.
Fact: Webber beat him 3 out of 11 times when the car was to Webber's liking. See also: Massa/Alonso.

Apart from 2011, Webber is generally very close to Vettel on pace especially in qualifying, which makes a mockery of the idea that he is Senna fast or even on the same planet. Vettel was out qualified 11 times by one of the oldest drivers on the grid last year, almost as many times as Senna had been out qualified his whole career, or Alonso in the last 6 years.

Fact: Vettel:Webber was 11:9 last year.
Fact: In 4 years, Vettel had the measure of widely acknowledged qualifying specialist Webber 7 out of 10 times.
Fact: The two times Alonso paired with a acknowledged qualifying specialist (Trulli/Hamilton), he tied with them on results. He has never once beaten a qualifying specialist 7/10 in one season, let alone over multiple years.

Please come back when you can stop telling outright lies :down:

#681 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 17:02

Woah, I sense strong resentment of Sebastian from some people here. It is really that difficult to accept Sebastian might possibly be quite good? :cool:

That comparison might work if Vettel's team mate, a classic journeyman, and one of the oldest drivers on the grid, also didn't consistently have front running pace, which proves Vettel is not making the difference like Schumacher and Alonso, and that the car really is the benchmark. If anyone has seen Senna race and other greats, like Schumacher and Alonso, them it should be extremely clear Vettel is not in the same class.

Firstly, for someone with 'consistent front running pace' Webber finished way off Sebastian, 6th in the WDC and over 100 points down on his team mate.

Secondly, if you are going to judge Sebastian against Schumacher and Alonso then it should only present Sebastian in a further good light. After all, for all that Webber might occasionally keep up the pace, he was never required to cede a victory to Sebastian. Rubens Barrichello has managed to keep the pace with Schumacher a few times back in Ferrari, and some might say Massa even showed up Alonso towards the end of 2012. That is not to mean that Schumacher and Alonso are not great, just that they are human and so naturally imperfect.

Thirdly, if you really want to do things Di Resta's way, Webber beat Alonso back in F3000. To just wave off Webber's talent as 'a classic journeyman' is quite disrespectful. After all, here is someone who, back when he just entered the sport, claimed unlikely poles in 2003 and 2004 for mid-running teams. Not unlike what Nico Hulkenberg has achieved so far. Yes, Webber might not be classed as a F1 legend, but he isn't someone to be easily dismissed either.

1. Consistency.
He is too often out paced by his journey man team mate, often for long periods, which is something that does not happen with the true great drivers. When they get outpaced its a rare thing, while with Vettel its extended periods. True great drivers would never be trailing mark webber on points until Spa like Vettel did last year.

Firstly, I think it is very easy to overlook that a single alternator is the reason why Sebastian even dropped behind Webber on points. Otherwise, Sebastian would quite easily lead Webber from Europe right to the end.

Secondly, it is quite smart to state Sebastian trailed Webber on points until Spa (which sounds really bad since the Belgium GP occurs after more than half the season is gone). Yet Sebastian's bad run only occurred after his alternator failure. That means only 4 races, which is quite different from the picture you were trying to paint.

2. Vettel cannot adapt to a car, he requires a specific handling characteristic to be fast otherwise he is mediorce and comfortably beaten by the likes of Webber. This is something widley acknowledged by Vettel himself and the team, so its not even in dispute, and is the main reason he lacks consistency and the true talent of the greats, who could adapt and be fast in anything. They were not helpless and at the mercy of the cars handling. Its amazing that you consider his talent equal to Senna with this in mind.

Sebastian is indeed not as good at adapting to a changing car as Alonso and Hamilton are. To jump from that comparison to 'mediocre and comfortably beaten' is quite hilarious, though. Let us compare the results of Sebastian, Webber and Alonso over the first seven races in 2012 (when Sebastian stated he wasn't comfortable with the car).

Sebastian 2 11 5 1 6 4 4
Webber 4 4 4 4 11 1 7
Alonso 5 1 9 7 2 3 5

Alarmingly, Webber is the most consistent. Sebastian and Alonso both have one victory and one 2nd place, Alonso having one more podium (a 3rd), but Sebastian having better points positions. Sebastian also has one 11th, while Alonso's lowest result is a 9th. In conclusion, all three drivers had somewhat similar results.

Perhaps he wasn't beating Webber as comfortably as Alonso had beaten Massa. But to jump from that and so saying that Sebastian is mediocre is a really long shot. I dare say Sebastian and the team would acknowledge his adaptability as something he could improve on, but they definitely wouldn't agree that it is a weakness. Indeed, if not considering reliability troubles, Sebastian is possibly one of the most consistent drivers on the grid. If he has a midfield car, it will finish in upper-midfield positions (2007-2008). If he has a front-running car, he will consistently win races (2009-2012). If he has the best car he will dominate (2011). Not much more a team can ask for, really.

3. He really is not that fast. Apart from 2011, Webber is generally very close to Vettel on pace especially in qualifying, which makes a mockery of the idea that he is Senna fast or even on the same planet. Vettel was out qualified 11 times by one of the oldest drivers on the grid last year, almost as many times as Senna had been out qualified his whole career, or Alonso in the last 6 years.


Firstly, please don't state random numbers and quote them as facts. The qualifying battle in Red Bull last year is 12-8 in Sebastian's favour. Likewise, Senna has been out qualified more that 11 times in his career. Alonso has been out-qualified by Massa 8 times and Piquet Jr. once which, added to his record against Hamilton (2007 is within your last 6 years) he definitely has been out-qualified more than 11 times.

Secondly, although I would agree Senna is probably the better qualifier when compared to Sebastian, Alonso should not be in the equation. Webber has been a great qualifier throughout his F1 history and had never been beaten until he came up against Sebastian, while Alonso often faltered against Trulli in 2004 and occasionally lost to Fisichella as well. Only when he is the established number 1 does he ever comprehensively beat his team mate. If you want an example of a fast driver, Hamilton should be considered instead.

So many people ignoring these major flaws and just get carried away by his statistics provided by having the fastest car for the majority of his career. That's really not that impressive for an experienced F1 observer. He is simply doing what the likes of Mansell, Hill, and Jaques Villeneuve did, for an extended period of time because he had their machinery for much longer. Sadly this charade might continue for a lot longer because Vettel is clearly not the type of driver interested in a real challenge or test. He thinks greatness is about numbers only, so he will be happy to sit in the best car forever, with a journeyman number 2, winning a lot, and thinking he has earned greatness when he never will. He might eventually be exposed if he went up against a top line team mate in a not so perfect car without Marko watching his back but I highly doubt he will ever allow that to happen.

Goodness but there are so many unsubstantiated assumptions in this paragraph. I can easily accept it if it was solely your opinion, but you chose to phrase it like a generalization instead, which makes it very biased, and plainly wrong. :down:

1. 'ignoring these major flaws' There has yet to be a major flaw in Sebastian's technique that has been properly supported. Statistics is one way of supporting one's argument, informed opinion by ex-drivers or team members is another. Claiming to be an 'experienced F1 observer' is worth not much at all.

2. Whether you appreciate their talent or not, 'the likes of Mansell, Hill, and Jacques Villeneuve" are all proper F1 greats, and are much loved by their fans. Just because they might not be the great Ayrton Senna in your view does not make them any less impressive to others. To dismiss their achievements as just driving in the fastest car is extremely disrespectful.

3. 'Vettel is clearly not the type of driver interested in a real challenge or test' And you know that, how? If Sebastian is uninterested in challenges, he could easily retire right now and be happy with his abundance of cash. Every second spent in a F1 car is a challenge, a test of his physical fitness, a dare to travel as fast as possible in a prototype car. If it was that simple to become a WDC, I wonder why so many drivers have yet to accomplish it.

4. 'thinking he has earned greatness when he never will' In your opinion, maybe. Yet others have acknowledged his talent, and some even have declared him GoAT. Nonetheless, to declare that Sebastian will never achieve greatness when he has yet to complete a quarter of his career is very presumptuous.

5. 'without Marko watching his back' Dr. Marko will be pleased to have such a dedicated fan. I cannot even pretend to understand how you attribute Sebastian's skills to the great doctor.

Ascanelli can say what he wants but none of his words can change the clear weaknesses in Vettels driving that Senna did not have.

Nor can it change the clear bias you have against Sebastian.

Villenuve , Button, Hill, Kimi won titles because they had clearly the best cars

And Alonso, Schumacher, Prost and even the great Senna have not? If the driver winning the WDC having the best car has occurred throughout the history of F1, what makes you think it will change now?

Also, how can you think he's a bit better than the others when he only beat Alonso by 3 points last year with a clearly superior car? Or in 2010 again clearly superior even if you factor in slightly less reliable. It makes no sense.

Schumacher claimed his 2003 title from Kimi by only 2 points. Hamilton's title was claimed by a single point. And I'll never understand how Lauda claimed victory in 1984 by half a point. As for your perceived clear superiority of the Red Bull, isn't it interesting that Ferrari claimed 2nd in the WCC? Or how Massa was right behind Webber in the WDC, despite Massa himself admitting he underperformed at the start of the season (while Webber insists he gave his best shot)? Yes the Red Bull was the better car, but it was far from a clear superiority.

Alonso is widely regarded as the best driver on the grid, and one of the best of all time, by the majority of the paddock and fans, which flies in the face of your opinion. If greatness was purely judged by statistics then you would have a point but educated fans understand there is much more to it, which is why Moss is rated as a great with no titles. If what you say is true then every driver would be second tier compared to Schumacher, and driver ranking would simply be determined by statistics.

'Alonso is widely regarded as the best driver on the grid' in 2012. Just roll back one year and the common consensus was Sebastian was the best (in 2011). Misrepresentation at its best, I guess? And Alonso has every right to be regarded as 'one of the best of all time' since 2 WDCs is quite a feat indeed. It is just that I, like Winter98, consider Sebastian better. Unlike others I don't need to belittle Alonso achievements to recognize Sebastian's greatness.

Its stunning to read something like that. I guess you don't care that the vast majority of the F1 world believed the Redbull was clearly faster than the Ferrari. Or that an analysis showed the Ferrari was 4th quickest car on race pace over the year. Or that the Redbull was considerably quicker than the Ferrari in 15 out of 20 races. That's not conjecture its a fact. Of course you can try to argue that a great driver makes the difference, but in this case it fails terribly because Vettels' team mate, one of the oldest drivers on the grid, also managed to be extremely fast all season, despite a poor title position. Again this totally under mines the notion Vettel is making the difference.

I think you are making the assumption that 'faster' = 'better'. If so, McLaren should have won the WCC by a landslide. Ferrari's reliability clawed back points that Alonso (on his own) would not have been able to make up. Therefore, we rate Ferrari quite a bit higher than you do. And just in case it was not clear, 100 points+ is the difference between Sebastian and 'one of the oldest drivers on the grid'.

"I doubt anyone really believes that even you, and it does Vettel fans no favours when they decend to these levels of absurdity and try to deny his car was much faster than the F2012 despite all evidence pointing to that conclusion. We all understand why you do it though, because you have no choice, considering Alonso finished only 3 points behind Vettel. If he did that in even a slightly inferior car let alone significantly, then it blows the idea that Vettel is as good , or better, out of the water. So you have to resort to stuff like this. I find it quite sad really."

The idea that Sebastian is good, or better, is substantiated by 3 WDCs. The idea that Alonso is frustrated is substantiated by his 'absurd' Samurai quotes. The idea that Alonso is closer to Senna than Sebastian is substantiated by their fans claiming Alonso/Senna is perfection, despite evidences to the contrary. Sebastian (as per the quote in my signature) is far from perfection, but closer to human greatness. And as for sour grapes? I find it quite sad, really.

#682 Gag Bueno

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 17:06

:rotfl:

Ola, Galvão

you guys over at Globo TV obviously still hold a grudge with Ascanelli because he did not say "Vettel is as good as Piquet!", eh?


As far as I ( or GLOBO, for instance ... :p ) know, Ascanelli has never worked with Piquet Sr. Since this thread has a lil' Bavarian flavor ( :rotfl: ) it would be not bad to know who Paul Rosche aka "Nocken-Paule" considered "the best of them all"... But it's off-topic, I think...

Also, are you still going to comment the F1 races in 2013 - or have they retired you? Just wondering, because you spend more and more time on forums...

Que(m) tem Globo tem (quase...) tudo!

;)


Really? Maybe the forums are good for some research about some other F1 drivers "that people don't like" and were ( how being not in "eternal vacation" and lack of F1 viewers can change things... ) "not worth talking about"...



#683 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 17:30

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, certainly not intentionally. Could you please quote where I did?

I just don't believe the Ferrari was the comparative dog as so many supporters of other drivers are trying to make out.

Do you think Vettel, or any driver, should get credit for helping to develop and setup the car they drive?


I definitely think so. But then, since we get little access to what drivers do behind the scene, we will find it difficult to rate the drivers properly. Therefore I find comments like what Ascanelli said all the more insightful, and important. :up:

Most on this board seem to just rate drivers on pure skill on track, though. :well:

#684 aditya-now

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 17:40

:rotfl:


I thought that my post would amuse you, that's why I cared to post it. I see, you like Globo as much as I do. BTW, I am not Bavarian, I live in Hamburg. Quite opposite culture here in the North....

Quem tem Globo tem quase tudo, important addition you have made here. Weight on quase....

:wave:


#685 Mandzipop

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 18:43

Ascanelli's "enlightment" may go back to 2008, but the quote is from 2010, as far as I can understand the Autosport report. Not that it changes much the fact of the statement being pre-2012...


It was in a paper copy of F1 Magazine in 2008 I believe.

#686 jj2728

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 19:05

Of course you do, you just don't realize it. Senna was a great driver, and chances are he would have won between zero and three to five more championships. So take the median, two, add it to the three he won, and you get five championships. That's how great he was.

Clark won Indianapolis back when it meant something because he was a great driver. (Wasn't he the first Euro to win it in ages?) He won the British Touring Car championship. He won an F1 championship. That's how great he was.


Ever seen Clark race? Ever seen Senna or Gilles Villeneuve or Jackie Stewart or Niki Lauda race? Let me ask you this, have you ever been to a race? Don't tell me what or what I do not realize. The median you propose means nothing.

#687 Winter98

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 19:19

Ever seen Clark race?


I watched Clark win Indy on TV.

And more importantly, I got the Lotus F1 Dinky Toy that christmas. Sooooo cool! :D

Ever seen Senna or Gilles Villeneuve or Jackie Stewart or Niki Lauda race?


Yeah, watched them all.

Let me ask you this, have you ever been to a race?


CART races in Vancouver, big fan of Greg Moore (local boy), so sad when he died.
----------------------

Back to the discussion: Do you think it likely that Senna would have won at least one more WDC?

Edited by Winter98, 26 January 2013 - 19:55.


#688 DampMongoose

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 19:29

Hmmm, Clark had the respect of every one of his peers... Senna wasn't in the same league, however, as much as I disliked him at the time Senna appeared to be far quicker than Vettel! But speed is not everything...

#689 jj2728

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 20:45

Back to the discussion: Do you think it likely that Senna would have won at least one more WDC?


Senna? Yes I do. Just as I think Clark would have walked the '68 and quite possibly the '69 seasons. But, that does not in any way play into how I rate them. The 'would have could haves' have no bearing AFAIC. Look at the recently re-retired Schumacher. 7 titles to his name, yet when mentioning the greatest drivers it's the likes of Clark, Senna and Fangio who outshine him. There is more to a great driver than titles. Vettel has what it takes to rank up there with the greats and he's already proven himself in an inferior car. I personally think that Hamilton is the quickest of today's F1 drivers. Whether that will parlay into 'greatness' is another thing entirely. As an aside, I think Greg Moore had the talent to shine in F1. He was blindingly quick.

#690 aditya-now

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 21:06

Senna? Yes I do. Just as I think Clark would have walked the '68 and quite possibly the '69 seasons. But, that does not in any way play into how I rate them. The 'would have could haves' have no bearing AFAIC. Look at the recently re-retired Schumacher. 7 titles to his name, yet when mentioning the greatest drivers it's the likes of Clark, Senna and Fangio who outshine him. There is more to a great driver than titles. Vettel has what it takes to rank up there with the greats and he's already proven himself in an inferior car. I personally think that Hamilton is the quickest of today's F1 drivers. Whether that will parlay into 'greatness' is another thing entirely. As an aside, I think Greg Moore had the talent to shine in F1. He was blindingly quick.


Exactly same sentiments here. You cannot define a great champion by the number of WDCs or by any outer, "objective" measure. Of course that plays a role, but you must have seen them drive, you must have felt them drive.

Concerning Vettel, interesting point you make - does he fall into the Schumacher category or into the Clark/Senna/Fangio category. Portents are pointing towards the latter.

Clark won two F1 championships but that does not show how great he was - he was much greater than that. This thing with counting how many WDCs someone has won will never show you the greatness of the driver.



#691 mnmracer

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 21:30

Look at the recently re-retired Schumacher. 7 titles to his name, yet when mentioning the greatest drivers it's the likes of Clark, Senna and Fangio who outshine him.

Only since his come-back.
Post-'06, it was a flip of a coin between Schumacher and Senna, with Clark and Fangio flipping for p3.

#692 jj2728

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 21:54

Only since his come-back.
Post-'06, it was a flip of a coin between Schumacher and Senna, with Clark and Fangio flipping for p3.


Clark and Senna have for many years (post 1950) been the 2 drivers linked at the top.

#693 DampMongoose

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 21:58

Taking all factors into consideration, particularly the cars he drove, Moss was far better than Vettel or Schumacher... you need only look at the competition during Schumachers reign, I mean if anything had happened to Hakkinens car in '99 at Suzuka, Eddie Irvine would have been WDC!

#694 mnmracer

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 22:17

Clark and Senna have for many years (post 1950) been the 2 drivers linked at the top.

217 drivers in the autosport top 40 from 2009 certainly didn't seem to think so, for one.
Not that I completely agree with the results of that list, your statement is incorrect.

Edited by mnmracer, 26 January 2013 - 22:17.


#695 bourbon

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 22:50

Exactly same sentiments here. You cannot define a great champion by the number of WDCs or by any outer, "objective" measure. Of course that plays a role, but you must have seen them drive, you must have felt them drive.


Your statement makes it seem like the WDC Cup is auctioned off to the highest bidder each season, lol. It is HARD HARD HARD to win a cup - for every F1 driver who has done so (32/800). It is the single foremost goal of every driver and its relevance cannot be minimized.

You have to respect the fact that the number of cups is the only thing that matters to some fans - and the more cups, the greater the champion; just as they would have to respect your belief that one must "see and feel" the champion driver to make the determination regarding his greatness among champions. But in any case, none should underestimate the value of the cup to a driver's greatness.

Concerning Vettel, interesting point you make - does he fall into the Schumacher category or into the Clark/Senna/Fangio category. Portents are pointing towards the latter.


There are no universally accepted categories.


Edited by bourbon, 26 January 2013 - 23:01.


#696 prda

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 23:47

Of course it holds up.

Drivers who died during their career are given the benefit of potential WDCs. Think Senna and Clark. Drivers from pre F1-specialist days are given the benefit of Championships they won outside of F1. Think Clark at Indianapolis (back when it meant something).


lol according to you maybe but nobody else has ever suggested such an absurd idea of giving drivers the benefit of potential world championships. That really is ridiculous but I guess you are compelled to invent something like that when your 'world champions determine everything' is so easily contradicted.

#697 prda

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 23:54

Feel free to believe the politicking about the relative merits of Alonso's car, I don't.

It had great reliability, and was a rocketship on the starts. Massa proved it had the speed to win the championship down the stretch, Alonso failed to deliver.



What on earth are you talking about politics? Lap times have nothing to do with politics, and they prove the Redbull was much faster than the F2012 for the vast majority of the season. Instead of making u pathetic excuses, try to form a sensible and logical argument as to why you think the cars were comparable in speed, which obviously includes explaining why Vettel and Webber were both consistently faster than Alonso. It seems clear you are not interested in facts, and just your personal interpretation of reality. The Redbull must faster all season? Ahh just politics! Hilarious

It had slightly better reliability than redbull but that was offset with Alonso being taken out in two races. Rocket ship starts from 7th position on the grid do not out weigh its lack of qualifying pace compared to Redbul, and Massa did not show championship winning speed, you just made that up, unless you can show lap times and detail what races Massa would have finished higher than Alonso did.

#698 prda

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 23:55

Of course you do, you just don't realize it. Senna was a great driver, and chances are he would have won between zero and three to five more championships. So take the median, two, add it to the three he won, and you get five championships. That's how great he was.



:rotfl:

You should have your own column.

#699 prty

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 23:58

Fact: Vettel has impressed in mid-field cars, front cars, grooved tires, slicks, with DRS, without DRS, with KERS, without KERS, with EBD, without EBD.


Would have been easier to say, Vettel has done well in Newey cars :D
But actually, you said one thing too many: he hasn't impressed in non-EBD or downforce equivalent cars.

You are confusing preference with ability.
Fact: Webber beat him 3 out of 11 times when the car was to Webber's liking. See also: Massa/Alonso.


Indeed you should not confuse that. When the car was difficult to drive, Webber had the measure on Vettel. But difficult to drive doesn't mean that Webber liked it.

Fact: Vettel:Webber was 11:9 last year.
Fact: In 4 years, Vettel had the measure of widely acknowledged qualifying specialist Webber 7 out of 10 times.
Fact: The two times Alonso paired with a acknowledged qualifying specialist (Trulli/Hamilton), he tied with them on results. He has never once beaten a qualifying specialist 7/10 in one season, let alone over multiple years.


I love how you group them into "qualifying specialists" as if by magic all the drivers that fall into that group are equally good.

Someone needs a reality check.


Indeed :stoned:

Edited by prty, 27 January 2013 - 00:06.


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#700 prda

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 00:02

Someone needs a reality check.

Fact: Vettel was out-paced three times this year by Webber, just as often as Alonso was by Massa.


You are confusing preference with ability.
Fact: Vettel has impressed in mid-field cars, front cars, grooved tires, slicks, with DRS, without DRS, with KERS, without KERS, with EBD, without EBD.
Fact: Webber beat him 3 out of 11 times when the car was to Webber's liking. See also: Massa/Alonso.


Fact: Vettel:Webber was 11:9 last year.
Fact: In 4 years, Vettel had the measure of widely acknowledged qualifying specialist Webber 7 out of 10 times.
Fact: The two times Alonso paired with a acknowledged qualifying specialist (Trulli/Hamilton), he tied with them on results. He has never once beaten a qualifying specialist 7/10 in one season, let alone over multiple years.

Please come back when you can stop telling outright lies :down:



Webber is a pathetic starter and always has a lot of bad luck with KERS, so using the measurement of 'beating' can be misleading because he is often faster but stuffs up. Like Australia when he out qualifed Vettel without KERS, was quicker in the race but spent most of it fighting in traffic because of a bad start. Its not preference, because when the car does not suit Vettel he is consistently out paced by Webber, he can't adapt he said so himself and so did the team, are you really going to disagree with them? lol.

Fact is Vettel has only had sucess in Newey cars, regardless of the various regulations. Massa was a qualifying specialist acccording to everyone before Alonso thrashed him, and everyone changed their opinion because they could not handle all the egg on their faces. Massa beat Kimi, who did Webber ever beat? David Coulthard? lol.