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Vettel as good as Senna, says Ascanelli


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#751 mnmracer

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 16:23

Pot calling the kettle black. I have used facts to back up every argument. You just throw baseless 'double standards' accusations around when you get exposed, and comparing Alonso's 2006 season to vettels 2012 proves that. You would get laughed at in the paddock and my most people if you brought that up, but of course its double standards to dare to rate someone better than vettel. How dare they.

So you deny that you lied about the fact that Vettel has won races in cars with 10 distinct different characteristics?
You deny that you lied about the fact that Vettel has not been outqualified 11 times in 2012?
You deny that you lied about the fact Vettel received praise for his performance in 'non-EBD or downforce equivalent cars'?
You deny that you lied about the fact that Vettel has had the measure of Webber in 17 out of 20 races in 2012?
You deny that you lied about the fact that Vettel was faster all through the race than Webber in Australia 2012?
You deny that you lied about the fact that Vettel was faster all through the race than Webber in Australia 2012?
You deny that you lied about the fact that Vettel was hardly ever outqualified by Bourdais?
You deny that you lied about the fact that Alonso was not 21 when he faced (and could not outqualify) Trulli?
You deny that you lied about the fact that Vettel was faster all through the race than Webber in Australia 2012?

That's not even mentioning the stretching reality-posts of yours, such as where you claim Webber is not an acknowledged qualifier, and Jarno Trulli/Giancarlo Fisichella were these great drivers, who in turn beat the great names of Ralf Schumacher, Alexander Wurz and Ricardo Zonta. Not to mention your lack of understanding of racing fundamentals.

Stop with the lying.
It's one thing if you're just stretching reality, or just using a double standard, but you are telling factual, measurable lies. It's mindblowing how you can get those lies out of your hands.

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#752 H2H

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 16:23

Great point. My guess would be that both Sebastian and Senna had that extra charisma to motivate team members that make them stand out more. After all, from all reports, Schumacher has always been very good at the technical side of things. And on-track Schumacher was quite good as well. But I could see the stern guise of Schumacher in his first career perhaps intimidating some engineers or mechanics, as compared to Sebastian and Senna who are both known to get along very well with their team members. However, I admit it is only guesswork since Ascanelli hasn't elaborated much on the matter.


Schumi has certainly been amazing on the technical side, especially at Ferrari, driving the team forward. You can see his influence down to the details in those Ferrari cockpits, íf you can believe Piola&Co from the way his seat is adjusted to the fences on the pedals to the brake-bias lever and so forth. It is difficult to know why Giorgio should not include him, great and fantastic driver he was.


#753 svalgis

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 16:24

Better and better at what?

overall of course. driving is constantly evolving so any drivers from the 90's or earlier fast-forwarded to present time would be hard pressed to be a decent midfielder at best, as proven by the poor return of the most successfull f1 driver of all time. senna was a great of his time, but you can't compare him to modern drivers.

#754 jj2728

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 16:39

overall of course. driving is constantly evolving so any drivers from the 90's or earlier fast-forwarded to present time would be hard pressed to be a decent midfielder at best, as proven by the poor return of the most successfull f1 driver of all time. senna was a great of his time, but you can't compare him to modern drivers.


I'm not comparing. I'm questioning the statement that todays' drivers are better. We'll never know for sure. All it proves is that the drivers have evolved. Give anyone of the greats from years' past (at their prime) some time to acclimatize themselves in todays' machines and I'd bet that they'd be just as quick. Conversely, give some of the present day drivers the opportunity to drive the cars from years past, for a full race distance, at race speeds and I'd be willing to bet that they'd be well on knackered if they were not given the time to adjust to the equipment.

#755 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 16:40

Schumi has certainly been amazing on the technical side, especially at Ferrari, driving the team forward. You can see his influence down to the details in those Ferrari cockpits, íf you can believe Piola&Co from the way his seat is adjusted to the fences on the pedals to the brake-bias lever and so forth. It is difficult to know why Giorgio should not include him, great and fantastic driver he was.

Yup, that is why I guessed that his personality must be the only thing left that Ascanelli thought lacking, and so not 'perfection' like Sebastian and Senna was. Because other than that, I can really see no flaw in Schumacher.

#756 Winter98

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 17:02

I'm not comparing. I'm questioning the statement that todays' drivers are better. We'll never know for sure.


I think there is absolutely no doubt that today's drivers, and today's athletes in general, are better than their predecessors. The training methods have improved drastically, and in driving the younger start age, increased training opportunities (simulators), and increased size of participation pool to draw from leave no doubt.

That said, if drivers from previous eras had had these same opportunities, I think they would have be just as good.

The only thing that would hurt previous greats is the fact that there are far more participants in competitive racing today. For example, compare the skill level of the players on the Canadian National Soccer Team (small number of participants) to the skill level of the players the Canadian National Hockey team (large number of participants). Drivers from the late 40s and 50s stock would drop the most from this.

Edited by Winter98, 27 January 2013 - 17:03.


#757 jonpollak

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 17:03

I can really see no flaw in Schumacher.


.... racing ethics ?
Jp

#758 Winter98

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 17:11

.... racing ethics ?
Jp


Do you think Schumacher and Senna were the worst?

#759 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 17:20

.... racing ethics ?
Jp

I would say Senna also suffers from this, so I wouldn't consider it part of what Ascanelli calls 'perfection'. But yes, it would be something I dislike in Schumacher's legacy.

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#760 Kingshark

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 19:40

1st You were answering a huge Senna fan, so i doubt, he will portray him as unfair.

2nd And just because you found some examples of Senna not showing much resistance, doesn´t mean it´s the only way he was defending back then.

Does Estoril 88 ring a bell?
Or look at THIS....
Senna also cut to the inside many times, despite his opponent being almost next to him. (Like Brazil 85, Brands hatch 85, in Kyalami 93 or in Silverstone the same year or the well known collision with Mansell in Estoril 89 etc.).

And I'm sure you'll be quick to point out all the times Senna has rammed someone off the track or pushed and stretched the rules as much as possible, but same could be said about these moves, which went unpunished.







That doesn´t mean, he was always unfair - but he definitely defended hard plenty of times and in a way, that was rarely seen before. And it´s also true that in these days such maneuvers were never punished. Did you watch Schumacher´s blocking in Spa 1995? That would be impossible today.

What would be impossible today? The driving on slicks in the rain or blocking? His defensive driving, while good, was nothing special.

Hill was a wuss. Any of the current drivers would have got passed Schumacher easily. He left the door wide open on the entry going into Les Combes, and Damon didn't even have the guts to out-brake him despite having so much more grip.

If you goal was to cramp as much BS into a single post as possible, congrats, that post is a brilliant effort start to finish. With the bolded above as the highlight, probably the single most idiotic thing I read in quite a while. :up:

ARRGH!! My eyes!! the goggles do nothing!! :lol:

Thanks for your valuable effort and contribution.

The truth hurts doesn't. :stoned:

EDIT: Oh BTW, I can show many examples of Senna, Prost, or Mansell not showing much resistance when defending a crucial position. That's unheard of nowadays among top drivers.

Edited by Kingshark, 27 January 2013 - 19:41.


#761 jj2728

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 19:58

The only thing that would hurt previous greats is the fact that there are far more participants in competitive racing today. For example, compare the skill level of the players on the Canadian National Soccer Team (small number of participants) to the skill level of the players the Canadian National Hockey team (large number of participants). Drivers from the late 40s and 50s stock would drop the most from this.


The number of participants doesn't mean much. Skill and/or having deep pockets does. And that's always been the case.

#762 Winter98

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 20:32

The number of participants doesn't mean much. Skill and/or having deep pockets does. And that's always been the case.


Imagine taking two random people and seeing who is best at driving. Each person has a one in two chance of being the best. Now take one million random people and see who is best at driving. Each person has a one in a million chance of being the best.

I sincerely don't mean to take anything away from Senna, or Fangio, or Schumacher, they competed against the rest of the grid, in the situation that was presented to them.

Edited by Winter98, 27 January 2013 - 20:39.


#763 DampMongoose

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 20:45

You can't compare defensive driving between the two of them, In the 80's and early 90's until Senna started making such moves more commonplace, drivers still had the decency and respect to realise that with car safety and track safety as it was they could not afford to block and adopt agressive 'defensive' driving to the level that the pampered stars of today can... just listen to James Hunt's criticism of any driver moving over on a competitor in any BBC commentary! Senna started the decline in driving standards to a mainstream level which then filtered down to the lower formulae but they didn't have the safety margin to adopt 'defensive' driving such as some people respect today!

#764 LiJu914

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 20:45

...


Why you´re answering me with a post of your´s containing clips from the recent past?
I wasn´t the one, who said, that defensive driving doesn´t exist today - but you´re the one, who said that about the past and i just mentioned some examples to show, that you´re wrong.


What would be impossible today? The driving on slicks in the rain or blocking? His defensive driving, while good, was nothing special.

The blocking of course as MSC would´ve been punished, if he´d done that today.

#765 Kingshark

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 20:52

Why you´re answering me with a post of your´s containing clips from the recent past?
I wasn´t the one, who said, that defensive driving doesn´t exist today - but you´re the one, who said that about the past and i just mentioned some examples to show, that you´re wrong.

I admit over-exaggerating on my first post; however, it was mainly to counter BoschKurve's claim that Senna would've been punished heavily if he drove defensive driving like that today.

The blocking of course as MSC would´ve been punished, if he´d done that today.

Based on what? His defensive driving at Monza this year went unpunished, and was no less extreme. Hell, it lasted for about 25 laps, versus his only one and a half lap battle against Hill. He even put Lewis on the grass at >200 KPH once.

Edited by Kingshark, 27 January 2013 - 20:52.


#766 jj2728

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 20:58

Imagine taking two random people and seeing who is best at driving. Each person has a one in two chance of being the best. Now take one million random people and see who is best at driving. Each person has a one in a million chance of being the best.


I really don't understand the point you are trying to make.

#767 LiJu914

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 20:59

Based on what? His defensive driving at Monza this year went unpunished, and was no less extreme. Hell, it lasted for about 25 laps, versus his only one and a half lap battle against Hill. He even put Lewis on the grass at >200 KPH once.


Imho it was a clearly a level below Spa 1995 and still raised huge controversy and the stewards said, they would´ve punished him, had they seen all of his moves straight away.

But anyway...we obviously have different opinion about this. No need to go on and on (as this is also way off-topic).

#768 jonpollak

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 21:49

You can't compare defensive driving between the two of them, In the 80's and early 90's until Senna started making such moves more commonplace, drivers still had the decency and respect to realise that with car safety and track safety as it was they could not afford to block and adopt agressive 'defensive' driving to the level that the pampered stars of today can... just listen to James Hunt's criticism of any driver moving over on a competitor in any BBC commentary! Senna started the decline in driving standards to a mainstream level which then filtered down to the lower formulae but they didn't have the safety margin to adopt 'defensive' driving such as some people respect today!



And THERE you have it race fans.

Jp

#769 BoschKurve

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 23:47

1st You were answering a huge Senna fan, so i doubt, he will portray him as unfair.

2nd And just because you found some examples of Senna not showing much resistance, doesn´t mean it´s the only way he was defending back then.

Does Estoril 88 ring a bell?
Or look at THIS....
Senna also cut to the inside many times, despite his opponent being almost next to him. (Like Brazil 85, Brands hatch 85, in Kyalami 93 or in Silverstone the same year or the well known collision with Mansell in Estoril 89 etc.).

That doesn´t mean, he was always unfair - but he definitely defended hard plenty of times and in a way, that was rarely seen before. And it´s also true that in these days such maneuvers were never punished. Did you watch Schumacher´s blocking in Spa 1995? That would be impossible today.


LiJu,

I've already stated previously that what happened at Estoril in 1988 was not something that could be defended, nor would I even try to defend his nearly running Alain into the pitwall at 180+.

However, I'm a little curious as to why you bring up Estoril 1989. After all, Nigel was black flagged in that race, and stayed out on the track in spite of it, eventually causing a collision with Ayrton. Then he made the lame excuse that he never saw the black flag after the race. That was 100% Nigel's fault as he never should have been still on the track at that point.



Edit: You can see the black flag being waved on the start/finish straight too in that video.

Edited by BoschKurve, 27 January 2013 - 23:48.


#770 Risil

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 00:04

The only thing that would hurt previous greats is the fact that there are far more participants in competitive racing today. For example, compare the skill level of the players on the Canadian National Soccer Team (small number of participants) to the skill level of the players the Canadian National Hockey team (large number of participants). Drivers from the late 40s and 50s stock would drop the most from this.


Got any data to back that up? I suspect you underestimate the opportunities people had to take part in Formula Junior, motorcycle racing, rallying, saloon car racing and so on back then. These were all legit routes taken by future Grand Prix winners, whereas now it seems having a really well-funded kart and junior formula programme is necessary to progress. I'm not saying extremely talented drivers without family backing are always shut out of the sport, but what we've got now ain't a meritocracy.

#771 LiJu914

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:26

LiJu,

I've already stated previously that what happened at Estoril in 1988 was not something that could be defended, nor would I even try to defend his nearly running Alain into the pitwall at 180+.

However, I'm a little curious as to why you bring up Estoril 1989. After all, Nigel was black flagged in that race, and stayed out on the track in spite of it, eventually causing a collision with Ayrton. Then he made the lame excuse that he never saw the black flag after the race. That was 100% Nigel's fault as he never should have been still on the track at that point.


I didn´t intend to blame anyone for certain incidents. I justed listed a few examples for Kingshark to underline, that these guys raced hard against each other already back then instead of waving each other through, like he suggested.

In case you´re still interested in my opinon about Estoril:
Yes, Mansell is to blame for that, as he shouldn´t have been there in the first place. However i never quite understood, why Ayrton defended his position so uncompromising against a guy, he knew might not back down - and considering his WDC-situation (he basically couldn´t afford another DNF). I´m not sure, but i hope he wasn´t aware of Mansell´s DSQ before the accident - otherwise his behauvior would´ve been quite silly tbh.

Edited by LiJu914, 28 January 2013 - 10:44.


#772 Rinehart

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:27

Is this still being debated? Gez, roll on winter testing....

I'm yet to see a credible poll where Vettel has broken into the top 5 drivers greatest drivers, let alone been voted ahead of Senna, who is usually top.
Vettel MIGHT end up being as good or better, but not yet.
He's not beaten a top teammate.
He's not got a half the "racing moments" on his CV.
He's never had a bad car.
He's won 2 titles with a significant "Newey" car advantage. Made 1 of them look difficult.
He doesn't have the aura and thus the respect of his fellow competitors that Senna did.
He's not even been considered the best driver last year on the CURRENT grid. (See TP vote)
He's not brilliant in the wet.
He's not rocking the record books at Monaco or Spa.
He's got the statistics, not the magic, so far... that's the issue.

He MIGHT get up there. Probably will in fact. But a bit previous to call a result way ahead of time.

#773 mnmracer

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:55

Is this still being debated? Gez, roll on winter testing....

I'm yet to see a credible poll where Vettel has broken into the top 5 drivers greatest drivers, let alone been voted ahead of Senna, who is usually top.
Vettel MIGHT end up being as good or better, but not yet.
He's not beaten a top teammate.
He's not got a half the "racing moments" on his CV.
He's never had a bad car.
He's won 2 titles with a significant "Newey" car advantage. Made 1 of them look difficult.
He doesn't have the aura and thus the respect of his fellow competitors that Senna did.
He's not even been considered the best driver last year on the CURRENT grid. (See TP vote)
He's not brilliant in the wet.
He's not rocking the record books at Monaco or Spa.
He's got the statistics, not the magic, so far... that's the issue.

He MIGHT get up there. Probably will in fact. But a bit previous to call a result way ahead of time.

- "He's never had a bad car." rubbish > Toro Rosso
- "He's won 2 titles with a significant "Newey" car advantage. Made 1 of them look difficult." > rubbish, Senna won 2 in a dominant McLaren
- "He doesn't have the aura and thus the respect of his fellow competitors that Senna did." > rubbish, nothing to do with being good or not
- "He's not even been considered the best driver last year on the CURRENT grid. (See TP vote)" > rubbish, picking single years is no argument
- "He's not rocking the record books at Monaco or Spa." > rubbish, what's the significance of those, and why not mention driver track Suzuka?

You start of well, but then turn it into rubbish. Why not just make a good post?

#774 aditya-now

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:07

Is this still being debated? Gez, roll on winter testing....

I'm yet to see a credible poll where Vettel has broken into the top 5 drivers greatest drivers, let alone been voted ahead of Senna, who is usually top.
Vettel MIGHT end up being as good or better, but not yet.

He MIGHT get up there. Probably will in fact. But a bit previous to call a result way ahead of time.


Vettel's highest positioning so far in any of these polls has been 8th (in the BBC poll), with Senna 1st. It is clear that Seb will take some time to get up there - if he ever achieves that. I am sure Ascanelli also did not think of poll popularity or statistical success when he made his statement, just some perfection he sensed from both as F1 drivers/technical feedback/methodology/as personalities and in their approach - that was what probably sparked his remark.

Then I have forgotten the question in F1 Racing from 2008 that made Giorgio make this statement.


#775 mnmracer

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:16

Vettel's highest positioning so far in any of these polls has been 8th (in the BBC poll), with Senna 1st. It is clear that Seb will take some time to get up there - if he ever achieves that. I am sure Ascanelli also did not think of poll popularity or statistical success when he made his statement, just some perfection he sensed from both as F1 drivers/technical feedback/methodology/as personalities and in their approach - that was what probably sparked his remark.

Then I have forgotten the question in F1 Racing from 2008 that made Giorgio make this statement.

Well, of course the main point is, Ascanelli didn't say "Vettel is as good as Senna". He said (implied) they have a similar sort of perfection.

#776 aditya-now

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:25

Well, of course the main point is, Ascanelli didn't say "Vettel is as good as Senna". He said (implied) they have a similar sort of perfection.


Absolutely, and sorry even 2 1/2 years hence that I got misguided by the article which said "Vettel as good as Senna" to use this one liner as the title of this thread.

If I have not gained anything else from being on this BB at least I know now that one has to be more careful with headlines the media uses, and how they twist and present facts.


#777 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 13:59

Absolutely, and sorry even 2 1/2 years hence that I got misguided by the article which said "Vettel as good as Senna" to use this one liner as the title of this thread.

If I have not gained anything else from being on this BB at least I know now that one has to be more careful with headlines the media uses, and how they twist and present facts.

Definitely. The media has an agenda when posting articles (to attract readers if nothing else), so it may lead to the threads being a mix up of what the title of the article claims versus what the article actually states. But that also creates good discussion points, so it should be great for forum threads either way. :cool:

Vettel's highest positioning so far in any of these polls has been 8th (in the BBC poll), with Senna 1st. It is clear that Seb will take some time to get up there - if he ever achieves that. I am sure Ascanelli also did not think of poll popularity or statistical success when he made his statement, just some perfection he sensed from both as F1 drivers/technical feedback/methodology/as personalities and in their approach - that was what probably sparked his remark.

I think what some might forget when discussing Sebastian versus Senna (even myself), is that Ascanelli is judging perceived 'perfection' in the 2 drivers and not overall 'greatness' in terms of Formula 1 as a whole. So what he might be saying may even just be that these 2 drivers have the ability to reach the 'perfect' potential within themselves, and will achieve all that is possible within themselves (as opposed to other drivers who may not live up to their full potential because they don't know how to unlock it within themselves).

Or maybe that is just me over-thinking too much. :smoking:

#778 Skinnyguy

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 14:25

EDIT: Oh BTW, I can show many examples of Senna, Prost, or Mansell not showing much resistance when defending a crucial position. That's unheard of nowadays among top drivers.


Jesus-Christ, you´re totally clueless. I just don´t talk about stuff I´m ignorant about (comparisons between drivers in the 70´s, mechanical stuff...). Please, do the same.

This is not about how often the guys bother covering up the inside. It has always happened that people with a big pace deficit just don´t bother defending (which happens way more often now with DRS and huge speed differentials on straights, mind you).

This is about how it was done when it happened/happens now. There are plenty of maneuvres that went on all the time on late 80´s, 90´s and even early 00´s that are not accepted right now: covering the inside to then come back fully to the racing line in the other guy´s face; defending once, going back to the racing line and then move across again; pushing wide someone already alongside in the middle of a straight, ignoring someone alongside going into a corner when he´s on a so-so position (30% alongside) and still use the full width of the track, comming back from outside the track and take advantage of the momentum to pass, brutal start chops from poleman forcing others to lift...

All this crap has been cut off recently, and it was perfectly accepted back then, and even just some years ago.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 28 January 2013 - 14:27.


#779 aditya-now

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 14:27

Definitely. The media has an agenda when posting articles (to attract readers if nothing else), so it may lead to the threads being a mix up of what the title of the article claims versus what the article actually states. But that also creates good discussion points, so it should be great for forum threads either way. :cool:


I think what some might forget when discussing Sebastian versus Senna (even myself), is that Ascanelli is judging perceived 'perfection' in the 2 drivers and not overall 'greatness' in terms of Formula 1 as a whole. So what he might be saying may even just be that these 2 drivers have the ability to reach the 'perfect' potential within themselves, and will achieve all that is possible within themselves (as opposed to other drivers who may not live up to their full potential because they don't know how to unlock it within themselves).

Or maybe that is just me over-thinking too much. :smoking:


Interesting take on the "perfection" thing. In terms of a driver reaching perfection definitely Ayrton's 1993, Schumacher's 2000 and Seb's 2011 were up there, as was Alonso's 2012. What makes it so difficult these days is the length of a season - it's hard to remain perfect for 20 races!

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#780 Winter98

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 15:00

Got any data to back that up?


Nope. Googled about for a while, but couldn't find relevant numbers.

I suspect you underestimate the opportunities people had to take part in Formula Junior, motorcycle racing, rallying, saloon car racing and so on back then.


It's certainly possible.

But I find it difficult to believe there was as much competition in motorsports in post WWII Europe as there is today. As well, today's technology let's video of a driver with potential to be created and sent around the world in seconds, exposing far more drivers to those at the top levels of motorsport.

I'm not saying extremely talented drivers without family backing are always shut out of the sport, but what we've got now ain't a meritocracy.


I'm sure you're right. It's like that in most sports I think.

#781 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 15:42

Interesting take on the "perfection" thing. In terms of a driver reaching perfection definitely Ayrton's 1993, Schumacher's 2000 and Seb's 2011 were up there, as was Alonso's 2012. What makes it so difficult these days is the length of a season - it's hard to remain perfect for 20 races!

Oh definitely! That is why I find it rather amusing whenever people say any driver is the best of the grid just based on one year. I don't find Sebastian's 2011 performance any more convincing than Alonso's 2012 performance with regards to who is the better driver overall. Instead their whole careers must be taken into consideration. And that is why I can believe Alonso is better (having experienced far more in his years in F1) and that Sebastian is better (have achieved more in his shorter years).

The best way to judge (when you have no inside information on both drivers) is when they have both retired. But by then, Ascanelli's words may already be immortalized as true fact.  ;)

#782 Rinehart

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 15:44

Well, of course the main point is, Ascanelli didn't say "Vettel is as good as Senna". He said (implied) they have a similar sort of perfection.


Rubbish thread title then!

#783 mnmracer

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 15:54

Rubbish thread title then!

That's why I like to familiarize myself with subjects I read about, and actually read more than just the headline ;-)

#784 Winter98

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 16:07

That's why I like to familiarize myself with subjects I read about, and actually read more than just the headline ;-)


OK, you're setting a bad example here mn. :p

#785 Kyo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:23

Sorry for bumping this relatively old post, but I just feel that I have to bust the old myth and get the truth across here.

Defensive driving back in the 80's and early 90's, if such thing existed, was a joke compared to what it is today.

No, Senna was not a monster defender, not even close. What he did at Monaco was nothing but driving as hard and fast as possible on the racing line, with the occasional "mirror check", hitting a few apexes quite early, along with giving Mansell a nudge going into Tabac.

Any decent current driver could've done that.

Mansell and Senna battling for the lead at Monza.


That was the 1991 Italian Grand Prix. With a car which had virtually equal top speed, Senna allows Mansell to breeze past for the lead. That's mediocre defensive. Without the graphics or the commentary, I'd have guessed that pass being for 14th place rather than for the lead.

Today, had Vettel and Alonso been brawling it out for the lead, and Alonso let Vettel cruze past him like that, without any attempt of a basic block. People would be questioning if Alonso even wanted the position.

How come Senna didn't even know the basics of defensive driving, which is cover the inside line? Had he done that on the run down to Ascari, every lap, perhaps he might have kept the lead for good and won that race.

...

So the best example you found was a race which Senna was holding the faster Williams since the beginning of the race and was going to pit in that same lap. This not to say that Senna should avoid a DNF at all costs since he was leading the WDC by a good margin and would be WDC even finishing all the remaining races in 2nd place.

And you basically saying that there is no driver that know the basics of defensive driving since there is no driver that was never overtaken by the inside line.

What is next? Senna wasn't that good in wet conditions? :lol:


...
- "He's won 2 titles with a significant "Newey" car advantage. Made 1 of them look difficult." > rubbish, Senna won 2 in a dominant McLaren
...


Senna won 1 in a dominant McLaren (1988), and he was facing the hardest rival in the same equipment.
1990 Ferrari was just as good, and in 1991 Williams were actually the fastest car.

#786 BoschKurve

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 21:02

Sorry for bumping this relatively old post, but I just feel that I have to bust the old myth and get the truth across here.

Defensive driving back in the 80's and early 90's, if such thing existed, was a joke compared to what it is today.

No, Senna was not a monster defender, not even close. What he did at Monaco was nothing but driving as hard and fast as possible on the racing line, with the occasional "mirror check", hitting a few apexes quite early, along with giving Mansell a nudge going into Tabac.

Any decent current driver could've done that.

Mansell and Senna battling for the lead at Monza.


That was the 1991 Italian Grand Prix. With a car which had virtually equal top speed, Senna allows Mansell to breeze past for the lead. That's mediocre defensive. Without the graphics or the commentary, I'd have guessed that pass being for 14th place rather than for the lead.

Today, had Vettel and Alonso been brawling it out for the lead, and Alonso let Vettel cruze past him like that, without any attempt of a basic block. People would be questioning if Alonso even wanted the position.

How come Senna didn't even know the basics of defensive driving, which is cover the inside line? Had he done that on the run down to Ascari, every lap, perhaps he might have kept the lead for good and won that race.

Here's Senna passing Prost in the same race.

Laughable. It's as if Prost was getting blue flags and being lapped. That hardly looked like two tough rivals going at it.

And I'm sure you'll be quick to point out all the times Senna has rammed someone off the track or pushed and stretched the rules as much as possible, but same could be said about these moves, which went unpunished.








Hell, I'd go as far as saying that Daniel Ricciardo's defensive driving against Mikhail Aleshin in F3.5R 2010 at Catalunya Round 2 was more impressive than any defensive driving I've ever seen in the 80's or early 90's. Drivers are simply becoming better and better, simple as that.


Shark,

I have to disagree.

Looking at it from a perspective that does not take right or wrong into account, Senna was easily one of the best defenders period. While you might not be overly impressed with his moves, he was known for protecting his space on the track better than anyone, and there is also the psychological aspect of his defending that doesn't come through in video. It's one thing to watch a defensive move on the track, but it's quite another to experience it. He always knew when to maximize a defensive maneuver by waiting till what seemed like the absolute, last possible moment.

Forgot to add...

Regarding the Monza 1991 overtake by Nigel, best as I could ever figure, Senna likely didn't see any upside in defending at that particular time as the speed of the Williams-Renault was incredible. Senna knew early in the 1991 season that the Williams package was superior to the McLaren package, but it was hidden by the reliability issues.

Edited by BoschKurve, 28 January 2013 - 21:05.


#787 Kingshark

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:13

Jesus-Christ, you´re totally clueless. I just don´t talk about stuff I´m ignorant about (comparisons between drivers in the 70´s, mechanical stuff...). Please, do the same.

This is not about how often the guys bother covering up the inside. It has always happened that people with a big pace deficit just don´t bother defending (which happens way more often now with DRS and huge speed differentials on straights, mind you).

This is about how it was done when it happened/happens now. There are plenty of maneuvres that went on all the time on late 80´s, 90´s and even early 00´s that are not accepted right now: covering the inside to then come back fully to the racing line in the other guy´s face; defending once, going back to the racing line and then move across again; pushing wide someone already alongside in the middle of a straight, ignoring someone alongside going into a corner when he´s on a so-so position (30% alongside) and still use the full width of the track, comming back from outside the track and take advantage of the momentum to pass, brutal start chops from poleman forcing others to lift...

All this crap has been cut off recently, and it was perfectly accepted back then, and even just some years ago.

This post is full of bland BS, but since this is way off-topic, I'll respond to you via PM.

#788 Zava

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:32

Is this still being debated? Gez, roll on winter testing....

I'm yet to see a credible poll where Vettel has broken into the top 5 drivers greatest drivers, let alone been voted ahead of Senna, who is usually top.
Vettel MIGHT end up being as good or better, but not yet.
He's not beaten a top teammate. - overall, Senna lost to Prost as well, didn't he?
He's not got a half the "racing moments" on his CV. - he's not got half the time in F1 as well
He's never had a bad car. - STR?
He's won 2 titles with a significant "Newey" car advantage. Made 1 of them look difficult. - mnm adressed that
He doesn't have the aura and thus the respect of his fellow competitors that Senna did. - so he's the kind of dude who shows us that f1 drivers are not semi-gods but normal people like you and me. can't see what's the problem with that :confused: and the no respect part: you probably see no respect, I see lots of envy and jealousy
He's not even been considered the best driver last year on the CURRENT grid. (See TP vote) - since 2008 (first full year of Vettel), he got the most points from the TP votes, ~190 on average compared to ~180 of Alonso (obviously pre2010 votes are point corrected) that was a really nice own goal from you.
He's not brilliant in the wet. - that is just simply rubbish
He's not rocking the record books at Monaco or Spa. - he's good at both, but I find it funny that you forgot to mention his record at suzuka, a 'driver track' as well: 4 races, 4 poles, 4 podiums, 3 wins, 1 WDC, 1 grand chelem, and I think he led all laps at his other wins too.
He's got the statistics, not the magic, so far... that's the issue. - just wait and see. ;)

He MIGHT get up there. Probably will in fact. But a bit previous to call a result way ahead of time.



#789 Rinehart

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 14:07

Zara you've totally missed my point that its "a question of time". "He's not had half the races" is precisely my point, a point you keep using to argue against me???!!!

#790 BunnyK

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 16:27

Vettel as good as Vettel, says Vettel

Preseason is always too long

#791 Skinnyguy

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 19:42

This post is full of bland BS, but since this is way off-topic, I'll respond to you via PM.


Haven´t got that message yet, but just don´t bother mate. I´ve read enough to see your view on the issue and how far it´s from reality. I´ve told you how things actually are and were too, so from now on it will get circular debate and feuding. Not interested.

#792 Gold

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 19:53

People comparing 80's driving to today don't factor in the cars. Back then the cars were very fragile. Most drivers didn't even warm up the tires for fear of braking the diff.

Also cars were much less refined. The 641 understeered like a dog on full tanks but handled well on near empty. Also fuel consumption had to be managed in the head.

So there was more to driving than now, if you see someone letting another past easily it was probably for a reason, not because they couldn't physically defend.

Look at BERCY 1993 kart championship to see how drivers of the 80's could actually race and defend.

According to Mansell, Senna was actually one of the most vicious to protect his space that Mansell had ever seen before or since.

Edited by Gold, 29 January 2013 - 19:56.


#793 BoschKurve

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 23:31

Whether you agree with Ayrton's methods or not, this kind of defending is not seen in modern F1 at all.



#794 Skinnyguy

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 00:00

Whether you agree with Ayrton's methods or not, this kind of defending is not seen in modern F1 at all.


And it´s a good thing. This happened all the time: People defended, forced others to the outside line for the next turn (perfectly OK), but then they chopped across again towards the outside to take the perfect racing line ignoring the nose alongside them (ala Schumacher on Monza 2011, for the young guys out there). The attacker had to lift to avoid a crash. And it wasn´t considered wrong. Until 2011 it wasn´t banned in the book, but people weren´t doing it except the weird exception already since late 90´s.

Another common trick was not to cover initially, wait till the attacker started moving out of the slipstream, and THEN start moving across to force him lifting off the move. Despite being covered in the book (that´s just crowding a driver alongside...) this last trick acceptance on track for practical purposes survived a lot longer sadly, those of you having watched that famous Spa pass from Mika on Schumacher life will remember the previous effort ending like this, and it getting hailed universally as brilliant defensive driving (universally... maybe not from the victim´s side :lol: ).

Dirty start chops have decreased to 0 too. Now people stop pushing wide when there´s no more room for the guy alongside, or cover early enough to allow the attacker to keep it flat and try the other side. And the weird time some guy tries, it gets punished, like in Nurburgring 09.

Good riddance if you ask me. Having watched all that I can´t say I feel nostalgic about it, and just can´t understand the "racing is dying with these rules" brigade.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 30 January 2013 - 00:05.


#795 Gold

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 02:28

Whether you agree with Ayrton's methods or not, this kind of defending is not seen in modern F1 at all.


Perfect example, just before the British gp Senna had learned he would not get the series 8 until portugal, and that Benetton, being a factory team, would retain the extra hp.

Senna's just toying with them, he's a clear 50kph down at abbey, bridge, stowe all the straights. He knew they would get by eventually but not without showing the world and primarily Ford what they were losing.

For the guy who said Senna was just driving fast and not really defending at Monaco 92 just occasionally checking his mirrors. You could not be more wrong, Senna knew to almost the inch where Mansell was and more importantly where he would be on every corner.

Mansell said himself Senna brake tested 20-30 times during those last laps, you don't do that without the other guy hitting you without knowing exactly where they are and what deceleration they are capable of.

To say that Senna was completely unaware, was just driving fast and wouldn't even know how to block if he wanted says so much more about the person making such a claim than it does about Senna (or Mansell for that matter). If you'd only watched any 84 or 85 GP (e.g. Detroit or LB, you'd know how in awe people were even back then of Senna's track position skills.

I think it was Hobbs who said back in 84; "I really don't mind if a lad can drive well, but this is ridiculous".

Edited by Gold, 30 January 2013 - 02:36.


#796 Rinehart

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:43

Whether you agree with Ayrton's methods or not, this kind of defending is not seen in modern F1 at all.


You are reaching hopelessly.
People will always reach for examples from Senna and MS because they were the ones constantly at the front, constantly on camera. Nobody remembers when an also ran drove like that.
There is a decent catalogue of this sort of driving from Vettel if you were so inclined to look. Monza 2012 for instance.
All drivers cross the line from time to time that is the nature of sport. I'm not attacking Vettel, I'm being realistic about Senna.

#797 BoschKurve

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 14:03

You are reaching hopelessly.
People will always reach for examples from Senna and MS because they were the ones constantly at the front, constantly on camera. Nobody remembers when an also ran drove like that.
There is a decent catalogue of this sort of driving from Vettel if you were so inclined to look. Monza 2012 for instance.
All drivers cross the line from time to time that is the nature of sport. I'm not attacking Vettel, I'm being realistic about Senna.


What am I reaching for? I'm a fan of Senna, and I'm well aware of his defensive methods of driving. I've also said that contrary to popular belief Senna was never the dirtiest driver in F1 history, or even his era. It was just easier to focus on him than midfield or backmarker drivers.

#798 BoschKurve

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 14:10

Perfect example, just before the British gp Senna had learned he would not get the series 8 until portugal, and that Benetton, being a factory team, would retain the extra hp.

Senna's just toying with them, he's a clear 50kph down at abbey, bridge, stowe all the straights. He knew they would get by eventually but not without showing the world and primarily Ford what they were losing.

For the guy who said Senna was just driving fast and not really defending at Monaco 92 just occasionally checking his mirrors. You could not be more wrong, Senna knew to almost the inch where Mansell was and more importantly where he would be on every corner.

Mansell said himself Senna brake tested 20-30 times during those last laps, you don't do that without the other guy hitting you without knowing exactly where they are and what deceleration they are capable of.

To say that Senna was completely unaware, was just driving fast and wouldn't even know how to block if he wanted says so much more about the person making such a claim than it does about Senna (or Mansell for that matter). If you'd only watched any 84 or 85 GP (e.g. Detroit or LB, you'd know how in awe people were even back then of Senna's track position skills.

I think it was Hobbs who said back in 84; "I really don't mind if a lad can drive well, but this is ridiculous".


I absolutely agree Gold.

I think people who claim there was nothing remarkable in what he did at Monaco 1992 should rewatch the last 5-6 laps if they can. You can even see Ayrton looking in his mirrors at times to see where Nigel was. It's really an incredible display of defensive driving. You can see doors open for Nigel periodically, and as soon as they open, you can see them beginning to get shut. The other thing too is the McLaren's tires were absolutely shot, and Mansell came storming out of the pits on 4 fresh tires. Even given the nature of the circuit, Mansell certainly had enough balls to try an overtake, but he was never able to get a long enough opening to do it.

#799 Skinnyguy

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 14:34

There is a decent catalogue of this sort of driving from Vettel if you were so inclined to look. Monza 2012 for instance.


And from Hamilton. And from Alonso. In fact I can think of more examples from these two (normal in Alonso´s case, he´s been much longer around, but Lewis must be the guy doing it more often of the 3). Sadly this driving still happens from time to time, sometimes drivers decide they don´t want to fight fairly in the next braking zone and just put others already alongside on the grass. Thank God it´s less and less common, it´s not considered as a fair defense anymore, and it gets punished most of times.

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#800 Rinehart

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 15:45

What am I reaching for?


An example of driving that is not in evidence today.