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Vettel as good as Senna, says Ascanelli


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#51 sanjiro

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 08:42

I guess that's correct, although really that was circumstances playing into Webber's hands. Senna's job on Prost was done without weather playing a part. Was just outright pace.



In every case when SV OR MW out qualified the other by a margin of any significance there were factors at play beyond the normal.

i.e. SV having trouble in chassis #3 MW having trouble in chassis #6 in both cases there was a significant pace difference but when examined closely all was not right.
Although SV fans like to deny anything was wrong with #6 and MW fans deny anything was wrong with #3 (there is anecdotal evidence of trouble with both chassis)

However what people should consider here is that MW for many years was considered one of if not the best qualifier in the field.

As A MW fan I dont think he has been at his best in Q since the accident, but even I am only thinking of 1/100ths
SV piping MW in Q time and time again is no small achievement.

Most people who dont rate MW do so based on a driver who for 90% of his time in F1 was in cars that were not capable of podiums.
In his first year in a top car he had GP wins.
In his 2nd he was a championship contender.
That is not the performance of a B grade driver.

Now I dont know if SV is as good as AS but no one ever will.
You cant base it on WDC because MS is king pin there and many of the AS fans would not rate MS over AS.

All I know is he is WDC in 2010
He was in 2010 0.09s faster than MW a driver who I rate very highly.
And I think if SV finds himself in a team with FA or LH he would make a VERY good account of himself.

As for 2011, he will not have a real team mate so it will be an SV white wash and will come down to the RB7 and the magic that is AN

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#52 mlsnoopy

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 08:51

No. The Redbull was fast, the fastest car. Look at what Button did with the fastest car. He dominated. Both RedBull drivers looked like they will lose the WDC.

#53 Black Widow

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 08:51

Everytime I hear someone quoting Monza 2008 as some kind of evidence of Vettel's 'greatness', I just about throw up.

STR had the A-spec Ferrari engine from a race or two before Italy because Ferrari wanted their only competitive customer team to start taking points off McLaren as the title fight was getting close. The difference between the A-spec factory Ferrari engine and the B-spec customer engine was rumoured at the time to be as much as 30hp, hence suddenly the STR went from being the poor cousin of the Red Bull RB4 to some kind of uber-jet in a straight line - Bourdais qualified 4th for crying out loud! Does everybody forget that little snippet of pertinent information? :drunk:

My goodness, somebody else remembers...

:up:

As a matter of fact :up: :up:

#54 Mr j

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 08:59

Blah blah blah... Jan Magnussen was supposed to be the next Senna. :drunk:


And so was Räikkonnen and Alonso and Hamilton, or was it Hamilton himself who compared him to Senna. Anyway, whenever there's someone showing talent they are beeing compared to Senna. Wasn't it just a couple of weeks ago when Alonso looked like becoming a three time WC that he was compared to the greats. This week it's Vettel and next year it's perhaps Rosberg, Kubica, Alguersuari or whoever...

#55 unoc

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 09:03

I know, that's why I said due to tyres. i.e. it wasn't speed but balls and wet weather driving.

Webber is a good quality driver, not an excellent outstanding week in week out brilliant driver. He has a few brilliant races, some truely horrid ones, but most are good. Senna and Prost had more than a few brilliant races in a season and not su many horrid ones.

I guess the only way to know how much Webber has lifted and how good Vettel really is is once Vettel goes against someone who we can benchmark.

In my opinion

Prost Senna
Raikkonen Alonso Hamilton
Webber Vettel

Those are my rankings, obviously heaps of drivers are missing, but as you can seee, tier 1 drivers are prost and senna left to right in my opinion best to worst of each tier. With a small gap between each name, but a bigger gap between each tier.

Raikkonen fastest of the 2nd tier, alonso following then hamilton. 3rd tier includes drivers like webber and vettel, with so many it gets very close between the drivers. Currently I believe Webber outranks Vettel on racecraft, stick them in a carvettel can't just charge off into the sunset in and I think webber would be able to pull out the overtakes to grab the win before vettel does.

#56 topical

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 09:03

Don't forget in 2007 when Peter Windsor told us Hamilton was better than both Senna and Schumacher, and Whitmarsh told us after 3-4 races he could be the best of all time.
Oh, and a year or two before that when Jackie Stewart said Rosberg would be the David Beckham of F1...

How long before someone tells us that guy setting the fast testing times in the Red Bull this week is greater than Fangio?

Absolute drivel......


#57 Ramses1348

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 09:11

So Webber is less than a tenth of Senna? :o

#58 Black Widow

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 09:28

How long before someone tells us that guy setting the fast testing times in the Red Bull this week is greater than Fangio?

That guy is Daniel Ricciardo and you know what, he may end up being greater than Fangio.

You don't know what the future holds and nor do I know what the future holds. That is one of the things we love about this sport, the "next Senna" or the "next Fangio" may be just around the corner.

I wait with anticipation!


#59 topical

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 09:56

That guy is Daniel Ricciardo and you know what, he may end up being greater than Fangio.

You don't know what the future holds and nor do I know what the future holds. That is one of the things we love about this sport, the "next Senna" or the "next Fangio" may be just around the corner.

I wait with anticipation!


Of course it's possible, but I think you missed my point: the premature pronouncements in which everyone driver who gets a bit of a success is hailed immediately as an all time great is just ridiculous. Only longevity shows the true talent of a driver.

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#60 undersquare

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 10:17

Of course it's possible, but I think you missed my point: the premature pronouncements in which everyone driver who gets a bit of a success is hailed immediately as an all time great is just ridiculous. Only longevity shows the true talent of a driver.


Yeah, have to agree, it's a lazy cliche that every new hotshot is the new Senna.

Personally I think there'll never be another Senna and so much the better, I didn't like him :eek: .

But if Ascanelli rates Sebi then I take that on board. He's looked good this year, but in a car that's very easy to drive fast, so more to be discovered about him I think.

#61 as65p

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 10:34

Hamilton has never taken anyone else out when overtaking.


True, but he tried damn hard with Alonso in Bahrain 2008. :p

#62 DarthWillie

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 11:03

Prost was one of the greatest races of all time - and Senna would smash him into the weeds in qualifying - 1 second plus was not uncommon.

Vettel has yet to do that to any team mate - 0.00012323342 of a second against Mark who, without being rude, probably wont be remembered as a great doesnt give a shining reflection on Sebs raw talent.

No doubt he is GOOD - but lets not get too excited yet.

There is a big difference in cars nowadays. Back then qualifying a second behind your teammate was not as big a deal. The difference between pole and second could easily be a second Nowadays that's unthinkable. Difference in cars etc. I seriously doubt Senna would outqualify his teammates with that kind of margin in this years cars. Ascanelli has a lot more knowledge than most armchairfans, so he probably knows better. I believe Vettel has the potential to be one of the greatest, if he fullfils that promise is up to him.

And lets not forget, from 1988 onwards Senna drove top material, even he could not achieve a championship in a lotus.

#63 DILLIGAF

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 11:10

Don't forget in 2007 when Peter Windsor told us Hamilton was better than both Senna and Schumacher, and Whitmarsh told us after 3-4 races he could be the best of all time.
Oh, and a year or two before that when Jackie Stewart said Rosberg would be the David Beckham of F1...

How long before someone tells us that guy setting the fast testing times in the Red Bull this week is greater than Fangio?

Absolute drivel......


+1

#64 flyer121

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 11:11

Everytime I hear someone quoting Monza 2008 as some kind of evidence of Vettel's 'greatness', I just about throw up.

STR had the A-spec Ferrari engine from a race or two before Italy because Ferrari wanted their only competitive customer team to start taking points off McLaren as the title fight was getting close. The difference between the A-spec factory Ferrari engine and the B-spec customer engine was rumoured at the time to be as much as 30hp, hence suddenly the STR went from being the poor cousin of the Red Bull RB4 to some kind of uber-jet in a straight line - Bourdais qualified 4th for crying out loud! Does everybody forget that little snippet of pertinent information? :drunk:

Sure, Vettel did a great job to bring the car home in mixed conditions as a young guy, BUT

* Kovalainen held everyone back behind him
* Vettel had no spray in his face!

By the time he pitted, the track was dry enough for slicks, he had a huge lead, and he just carried on to the victory.

It was a good win based on an excellent low-fuel strategy from Ascanelli to take advantage of the car's speed, but making it out like it was some kind of Senna-like drive is just shite. :rolleyes: Like pretty much every one of Vettel's wins, he didnt need to overtake anybody except for when they had to jump out of the way for him.



I used to think about the same with Vettel's win in Monza 2008... where by Vettel qualified on pole by fluke and won.
But after seeing how quickly Hulkenburg started flowing backwards after a fluke pole in Brazil, SV deserves more credit to his drive for Monza .

Also I dont beleive that the STR car was any better than the Ferrari & Maccas suddenly. Others may have done mistakes wrt to set ups but then again , thats the name of the game. They were not confident in their driving that they will be able to carry on with an aggressive set up !

And if you ask me Vettel's win in a mid field car is way more impressive than all the wins the so called greats have in best or 2nd best cars.

Edited by flyer121, 19 November 2010 - 11:16.


#65 DILLIGAF

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 11:22

Vettel was just lucky to have the best F1 car of the last decade with 200% griplevel, even Webber was almost WDC. That showed how good the RB6 was. Without the mech. issues the RB6 would prob. have been the best F1 car ever. :rolleyes:


The RB6 may well be the best car ever in the twisty bits & sweeping corners but it lacked straight line speed & was shit in dirty air. I'd rate it as one of the best ever F1 cars in qualifying trim though.

#66 hotstickyslick

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 11:25

The RB6 may well be the best car ever in the twisty bits & sweeping corners but it lacked straight line speed & was shit in dirty air. I'd rate it as one of the best ever F1 cars in qualifying trim though.

It obviously didn't lack that much straight line speed. No doubt it was the car to have in 2010.

#67 Johnrambo

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 11:30

Vettel is no Senna but he is clearly closest to him from the current bunch of drivers.

#68 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 11:30

Vettel as a good as Senna?

No Vettel is very fast, that is all.

There is not the class of Senna, just the speed (assuming Vettel is driving the car flat out).

Even the analytic aspect is missing!

Was Senna EVER told in a race "clean braking, smooth exit" - slow in, quick out is race car 101 - yet Vettel often is reminded be his engineer to not overdrive the car over the radio - they can see in his data he is overdriving, sliding and not hitting his breaking points. This is Massa-ish, hardly the stuff that Senna would EVER be told.

#69 DILLIGAF

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 11:34

It obviously didn't lack that much straight line speed. No doubt it was the car to have in 2010.


Oh i agree it was the car to have in 2010. But it wasn't perfect & i don't think it will go down as the best F1 car ever as some suggest. Just my opinion. :)

#70 JosTheBoss

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 11:50

I used to think about the same with Vettel's win in Monza 2008... where by Vettel qualified on pole by fluke and won.
But after seeing how quickly Hulkenburg started flowing backwards after a fluke pole in Brazil, SV deserves more credit to his drive for Monza .

Also I dont beleive that the STR car was any better than the Ferrari & Maccas suddenly. Others may have done mistakes wrt to set ups but then again , thats the name of the game. They were not confident in their driving that they will be able to carry on with an aggressive set up !

And if you ask me Vettel's win in a mid field car is way more impressive than all the wins the so called greats have in best or 2nd best cars.


Read my post again, please. I dont normally disagree with your opinions, but on this one I think your original thoughts were correct.

1. He qualified in a car that pitted a full 4 laps before anyone else did - he was light compared to his rivals.
2. He got the huge benefit of a rolling start at Monza. Not only did he not have to fight off the line, he got to floor it (at a point of his discretion) out of Parabolica whereas all the others behind him had to wait until Vettel decided to floor it. At best, Heikki got on the gas a half second after Vettel did. Vettel was thus GONE.
3. He led from the front, without spray in his eyes, on the fastest track in F1. Thus, almost certainly, the track where the biggest rooster tails of spray are created for everyone behind him.
4. The guy tailing him was Kovalainen, who was enjoying a terrible season and more than likely just wanted a solid result. Hence, he wasn't exactly driving like Lewis Hamilton and was dropping back all the time in Seb's spray, to a point where he was already 6.3 seconds behind after only 8 laps! It should also be remembered Hamilton, in the same car, passed Heidfeld, Glock, Kubica & Alonso in separate manoeuvres in the first 19 laps.
5. Vettel pitted on lap 18, took full wets again. As did everyone else. By this time, the field was strung right out and Vettel was just maintaining his gap. By the time he pitted again, the time was right to take on slicks and he duly did. He was never headed.

This is what Kovalainen had to say post-race:

Clearly not possible to win today. Sebastian and Toro Rosso have been strong all weekend. I had a little bit of a problem earlier on in the race, in the first couple of stints, especially with the extreme wet tyre and some problems also to warm up my brakes, so I was just struggling to find more time and trying to go faster. We kept pushing and towards the end it got a little bit better but I think it was the maximum we could do today. We picked up some good points and we can look forward to the next grand prix.


Now the spray was so bad that day that Kovalainen was a Trulli-train for the rest of the field, and that allowed Seb to just romp away. Funnily enough, Kovalainen being painfully slow also heavily assisted Mark Webber's first win at Nurburgring 2009. :lol:

Sebastian walked it, the opposition wasnt up to the STR's speed, simple as that. Maybe if Bourdais hadnt stalled on the grid, and instead came home his likely 3rd or 4th, people would realise there was bugger-all that was particularly special about Monza 2008, aside from Sebastian becoming the youngest GP winner. :well:

Edited by JosTheBoss, 19 November 2010 - 11:52.


#71 David1976

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:07

Senna didn't make it to F1 until he was 24.

Vettel is younger then that and already has a WDC and 10 wins. Time will tell.


In the mid 80's only men could handle F1 cars. Power steering? NO. Cleverly refined throttle maps? NO. Huge Aero grip? NO. Semi-auto gearboxes? NO.

Senna was in a different league above Vettel I have absolutely no doubt.

#72 topical

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:16

Vettel is no Senna and he is not even closest to him from the current bunch of drivers.


Fixed  ;)

#73 beute

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:17

Nobody's as good as Senna ... or Prost or Nuvolari or Schumacher or Lauda or Clark or Vittorio Brambilla (;P)

Seb's gonna make his own legacy, same with Alonso, same with Lewis and 20 years from now autosport will be quoting Rob Smedley team manager raving about some kid that's as good as Seb or Fred or Lewis. It just the natural progression of things.



nope not going to happen unless either of these drivers dies during a F1 race.

#74 flyer121

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:18

Vettel is no Senna but he is clearly closest to him from the current bunch of drivers.


:up:

I would say that Vettel is no Senna but he should go on to be an even greater force ...

Edited by flyer121, 19 November 2010 - 12:19.


#75 topical

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:26

:up:

I would say that Vettel is no Senna but he should go on to be an even greater force ...


Helmut, is that you?

#76 aditya-now

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:33

Ascanelli is saying this for third time now... (Maybe every month? :p) And he could be right, because Vettel has also quite a lot of technical problems, as Senna had... :)


I heard it for the first time now, but maybe in Italy it was reported more liberally. It still makes me wonder, and we will see in the coming years if Vettel really has this "perfection" by which Ascanelli "has been touched".

#77 H2H

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:33

Well Senna is Senna and Vettel is Vettel just as Schumi is Schumi.

He states that he been twice touched by perfection, once by Senna and once by Vettel, which is of course a huge compliment coming from a deep insider which knew both well. Berger has said something similar, and he knew Senna quite as well as he knows young Vettel. In this regard both have a lot more crediblity than most, but it still their very personal opinion. We will see how Vettel will turn out in the next seasons. So far he is 'the youngest ever' in a great deal of important statistics, but who knows what the future and his cars hold.

Personally I do think that he is among the top drivers of his generation.

H2H

Edited by H2H, 19 November 2010 - 12:34.


#78 aditya-now

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:33

Helmut, is that you?


:lol:

:up:




#79 seahawk

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:36

No Vettel is very fast, that is all.

There is not the class of Senna, just the speed (assuming Vettel is driving the car flat out).

Even the analytic aspect is missing!

Was Senna EVER told in a race "clean braking, smooth exit" - slow in, quick out is race car 101 - yet Vettel often is reminded be his engineer to not overdrive the car over the radio - they can see in his data he is overdriving, sliding and not hitting his breaking points. This is Massa-ish, hardly the stuff that Senna would EVER be told.


Do we know, if he was? The teamradio was not given out to the public at that time.

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#80 flyer121

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:38

Helmut, is that you?


Hey Flav ... Don't blow my cover man ! :)

Edited by flyer121, 19 November 2010 - 12:38.


#81 beckenlima

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:40

Could someone imagine Vettel doing that?




#82 aditya-now

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:50

10 years down the road we will be having the same conversation - whether Vettel is as good as Senna. The WDC will be shared among Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton for the next few years.


Not impossible, whilst we will probably have Kubica coming into the picture as well.

So we´ll have another period like Piquet/Prost/Senna/Mansell sharing most WDCs in their time. The only difference this time is that we have Vettel (aka Senna)/Alonso (aka Senna)/Hamilton (aka Senna)/Kubica (aka Prost) this time, according to what we hear! :lol: Three Sennas are the death of one Prost!


#83 undersquare

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:53

Could someone imagine Vettel doing that?


Well there is a certain amount of hype about that lap. Schumi takes himself out of it running wide at Redgate, then Wendlinger, Hill and Prost in the wet are not the most formidable competition.

Senna knew enough to use the outside lines, I reckon Sebi, Lewis and Fernando could all have done it.

#84 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 13:12

Huge Aero grip? NO.

How does this make the car easier to drive now !

Yes it's got more grip = easier on the one hand, but the limit is more extreme = push like mad on the other hand...

#85 SEP

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 14:21

Well there is a certain amount of hype about that lap. Schumi takes himself out of it running wide at Redgate, then Wendlinger, Hill and Prost in the wet are not the most formidable competition.

Senna knew enough to use the outside lines, I reckon Sebi, Lewis and Fernando could all have done it.


I fail to see where the hype is.

Senna did wonders driving an inferior Toleman against a much stronger field in 1984. The next year Senna did an even more impressive race, in my opinion, in Estoril driving a Lotus against a far superior Mclaren amongst others. In Donnington 1993 it should be clear for everyone that once Senna had a good car in a wet track he most likelly would destroy the whole field, no matter who were his competition.

As i said before, i think Vettel has a long long way to be considered "the next Senna" (ARGH!). But nothing is impossible (ARGH 2!).

Edited by SEP, 19 November 2010 - 14:23.


#86 undersquare

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 14:38

I fail to see where the hype is.

Senna did wonders driving an inferior Toleman against a much stronger field in 1984. The next year Senna did an even more impressive race, in my opinion, in Estoril driving a Lotus against a far superior Mclaren amongst others. In Donnington 1993 it should be clear for everyone that once Senna had a good car in a wet track he most likelly would destroy the whole field, no matter who were his competition.

As i said before, i think Vettel has a long long way to be considered "the next Senna" (ARGH!). But nothing is impossible (ARGH 2!).


Yeah well I agree about the whole 'next Senna' cliche as I've said.

I was only talking about that lap though. He did well to un-chop himself from Schumi but then he didn't really have to pass him, Michael ran off-line. Carl Wendlinger was no great shakes was he, then Damon in his first year and Prost in his last after a sabbatical and he didn't like the wet anyway.

So the fact that Senna gained 4 places doesn't make any of those passes great. I don't see anything that the top 3 of today couldn't have done. Top 6 even.

I'm not saying Ayrton Senna, I'm only talking about that famous lap being hyped. I don't see it as an example of something that would be beyond Vettel.

#87 hotstickyslick

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 14:47

Could someone imagine Vettel doing that?

That McLaren was probably one of the best chassis ever built in terms of driveability along with its electronic driver aids like its traction control system.

#88 HAM

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 14:51

Not a convincing argument. Hamilton had his fair share of collisions. In Silverstone he tried a move on Webber in the first corner and took out Seb in the process although I don't blame him, but that was the net result. Vettel's recovery was well done. He passed a lot of cars with great committment including Schumacher and both Force Indias which were pretty hard to take at Silverstone.

In Monza Hamilton tried a pass on Massa and took himself out. In Singapore he tangled with Webber who was similarly aggressive and DNFed. I do not see much beween Hamilton and Vettel in terms of botched up passes. Hamilton had more opportunity to pass and is probably the more experienced passer in an F1 car but that is natural considering he has his seat longer.

The Turkey collision was most likely a result of a miscommunication. I can't prove it but the hand gesture by Vettel made it quite clear that he did not expect the result of that pass and thought something was crazy. These things happen when both drivers have different informations what is going to happen. Spa was a genuine accident where Vettel lost control but it was compounded by a wet track, bumps and a front wing that had an extreme and unexplored aerodynamic behavior. Sure it was Vettel's mistake but such mistakes can happen under special circumstances and a lot of pressure. Other champions did similar mistakes as I said already.


Lewis was not driving a RB6 and I do not need to defend anything as everyone knows that Seb has less to zero overtaking skills and Lewis is a born overtaker (prob. best overtaker of the field):



If Vettel is as good as Senna, then Lewis is as good as Senna x 4 :rotfl:

:wave:

Edited by HAM, 19 November 2010 - 15:04.


#89 Laffite

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 14:55

That McLaren was probably one of the best chassis ever built in terms of driveability along with its electronic driver aids like its traction control system.


Yep. Ayrton would have raised his game with a better engine (more powerful and reliable).

#90 jjcale

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 14:57

That McLaren was probably one of the best chassis ever built in terms of driveability along with its electronic driver aids like its traction control system.


Yes... but his team mate did not manage to complete a lap.

#91 Laffite

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 14:58

Yes... but his team mate did not manage to complete a lap.


Yes, too many corners in Grand Prix racing..

#92 undersquare

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 15:02

Yes... but his team mate did not manage to complete a lap.


Wot Andretti in his 3rd race? :D

#93 Henri Greuter

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 15:13

I fail to see where the hype is.

Senna did wonders driving an inferior Toleman against a much stronger field in 1984. The next year Senna did an even more impressive race, in my opinion, in Estoril driving a Lotus against a far superior Mclaren amongst others. In Donnington 1993 it should be clear for everyone that once Senna had a good car in a wet track he most likelly would destroy the whole field, no matter who were his competition.

As i said before, i think Vettel has a long long way to be considered "the next Senna" (ARGH!). But nothing is impossible (ARGH 2!).




SEP:

Donington 1993 is a bit overhyped because of the fact that McLaren (Senna) was one of only few cars already fitted with traction control. The majority of the field didn't have it.

Before the TC era, Rain was often an equalizer which enabled drivers in lesser cars to make up on the better cars. Think about cases like
Jean Pierre Beltoise at Monaco 1972
Marc Surer in Brazil 1981 with the Ensign heap of scrap.
Gilles Villeneuve at Canada 1981
and, indeed, Senna with Toleman at Monaco 1984 and Estoril 1985

The ever so often heralded Donington '93 doesn't fall into this category because the McLaren was one of few cars which had a feature that made it potentially outstanding in the rain.
heralding Senna is only possible when you rate him against cars fitted with TC, praising him because slaughtering the rest of the field without TC is not fair to the rest of the field. They simply lacked a tool that only a few, including Senna had.
Senna himself realized it all too well since he always rated Estoril '85 over Donington '93 because the field was much more equal in 1985 because of the rain while in Donington the field was separated in two entirely different categories even more because of the rain> exactly the opposite.


Henri

(And I know what will happen soon ....)




#94 VicR

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 15:15

The funniest thing with this thread is that forum yahoos argue against an opinion held by a guy that has been in F1 for 25 years.

I mean, what does Giorgio really know about F1? Apparently very little. :lol:

#95 SEP

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 16:18

SEP:

Donington 1993 is a bit overhyped because of the fact that McLaren (Senna) was one of only few cars already fitted with traction control. The majority of the field didn't have it.

Before the TC era, Rain was often an equalizer which enabled drivers in lesser cars to make up on the better cars. Think about cases like
Jean Pierre Beltoise at Monaco 1972
Marc Surer in Brazil 1981 with the Ensign heap of scrap.
Gilles Villeneuve at Canada 1981
and, indeed, Senna with Toleman at Monaco 1984 and Estoril 1985

The ever so often heralded Donington '93 doesn't fall into this category because the McLaren was one of few cars which had a feature that made it potentially outstanding in the rain.
heralding Senna is only possible when you rate him against cars fitted with TC, praising him because slaughtering the rest of the field without TC is not fair to the rest of the field. They simply lacked a tool that only a few, including Senna had.
Senna himself realized it all too well since he always rated Estoril '85 over Donington '93 because the field was much more equal in 1985 because of the rain while in Donington the field was separated in two entirely different categories even more because of the rain> exactly the opposite.


Indeed Estoril was a better example os Senna's superiority and that's why i posted it. Still i pointed out that when Senna had a good car (Mclaren 93) he did what was expected, destroyed the whole field. Certainly there were many other "real magic" performances in wet track. Still, considering Senna's car advantadge over some cars i rank that way above Vettel's Monza or Michael's Spain (full wet set up) in 96. Taking this in consideration we could say there s a long way till Vetel or any other driver will reach such a high level.


Henri

(And I know what will happen soon ....)



#96 Henri Greuter

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 17:00

SEP,

Not wanting to derail the topic but I think that for both Monza 2008 and Barcelona 1996 one can say that the field was much closer because of the rain than it was at Donington
And both Vettel and Schuey had not such a car superiority as Senna had in 1993.

Had it been dry then I think that MS would have retired from the race yet again because of having overstressed the car/engine. Ferrari was so unreliable at that period of time.
But in the rain he could save it.
Mind you, one of the cylinders misfired so he crushed the opposition with a sick engine.

it was a great race by Senna, no doubt. he could have thrown it away too like MS at Francorchamps '98. But for me, Barcelona '98 outdoes Estoril '93 with ease because tje much more equal field in the tricky circumstances and MS having a sick car too.

But my all time favorite rain drive is probably Gilles Villeneuve at Canada 1981.
the worst chassis of them all with less downforce, powered by an insane strong engine but those first generation of turbocharged engines were so tricky even on the dry, let alone in the wet. And he still finishesd third after llosing the front wing and even more grip.
That remains my favorite...


And now I leave the thread and leave the stage back to the main topic again.


henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 19 November 2010 - 17:01.


#97 undersquare

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 17:08

And now I leave the thread and leave the stage back to the main topic again.

henri


Thanks for your contribution :up: . I hadn't realised Senna and only Senna had TC at Dony '93.

#98 ForzaGTR

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 17:21

I just came here to say "LOL"

Bye

#99 Biggles Flies Undone

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 17:41

Lewis was not driving a RB6 and I do not need to defend anything as everyone knows that Seb has less to zero overtaking skills and Lewis is a born overtaker (prob. best overtaker of the field):



If Vettel is as good as Senna, then Lewis is as good as Senna x 4 :rotfl:

:wave:


Nice video.

Never a dull moment with Hamilton.

Paul di Resta was better than Vettel in F3 so must be x 2 better than Senna :up:


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#100 SEP

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 18:39

SEP,

Not wanting to derail the topic but I think that for both Monza 2008 and Barcelona 1996 one can say that the field was much closer because of the rain than it was at Donington
And both Vettel and Schuey had not such a car superiority as Senna had in 1993.

Had it been dry then I think that MS would have retired from the race yet again because of having overstressed the car/engine. Ferrari was so unreliable at that period of time.
But in the rain he could save it.
Mind you, one of the cylinders misfired so he crushed the opposition with a sick engine.

it was a great race by Senna, no doubt. he could have thrown it away too like MS at Francorchamps '98. But for me, Barcelona '98 outdoes Estoril '93 with ease because tje much more equal field in the tricky circumstances and MS having a sick car too.

But my all time favorite rain drive is probably Gilles Villeneuve at Canada 1981.
the worst chassis of them all with less downforce, powered by an insane strong engine but those first generation of turbocharged engines were so tricky even on the dry, let alone in the wet. And he still finishesd third after llosing the front wing and even more grip.
That remains my favorite...


And now I leave the thread and leave the stage back to the main topic again.


henri



Not to be picky but i think you meant Barcelona 96 and Estoril 85, right?

If so, as i said in Barcelona 1996 Michael had full wet set up, wich means a huge, enormous, car advantadge and had as his oponents a rookie JV, the very same HH Frentzen Senna destroyed, Alesi, Damon Hill - who spun in lap one, and few others. If i remeber correctly, even Pedro Paulo Diniz (!) driving a Ligier (!) finished 6th... Also Ferrari, altough was an unreliable car, was a very very fast car. A very fast car with a huge set up advantadge in wet track.

On the other hand, Senna in 1993 was not the only driver with TC and had one of the greatest drivers ever, Alain Prost, driving what was called the most technologically sophisticated Formula One car of all time, incorporating anti-lock brakes, traction control and active suspension.


All this considered (car advantadge and competition) , if Donington 1993 is a bit overhyped , wich we agree, Spain 1996 should not be written in the same sentence of Estoril 1985 or Monaco 1984 or Canada 81 (but i think it had more to do with bravery than anything).

Spain 96, that was a super ultra overhyped win!


Anyway back to Vettel´s the new Senna performance, i must confess that despite beeing an Alonso fan, Lewis Hamilton is the one i think we should praise when talking about great drives.

Vettel / Webber batlle was too close in every aspect (race pace, number of mistakes under pressure, even qualifying times, etc) and i have a strong beleif Webber is not in the same league as Alain.

Just my 2 c