Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 11 votes

Vettel as good as Senna, says Ascanelli


  • Please log in to reply
805 replies to this topic

#151 BRK

BRK
  • Member

  • 3,474 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 22 November 2010 - 13:51

Looks like the accolades are really pouring in for Seb. Is he as good as Senna? Top qualifier in a top car,so in that sense: yeah,why not. All things considered it's pointless comparing drivers from different eras,anyway. Long,LONG way to go for him,but I do think he'll be at the very top for a good while. As a person he seems to have a pretty modest opinion about his abilities,so I don't think he's like AS or MS in this regard.



Advertisement

#152 Yorkie

Yorkie
  • Member

  • 2,192 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 22 November 2010 - 14:00

So Hamilton is a poor qualifieer and because of that has to overtake a lot of people :p

The more cars you have to pass the more chance of having a collision with someone thats the point i'm making, as for the qualifying thing ask Jenson about that, everyone thought Massa was a great qualifier when he had the best car

#153 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 4,751 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 22 November 2010 - 14:31

Not to be picky but i think you meant Barcelona 96 and Estoril 85, right?

If so, as i said in Barcelona 1996 Michael had full wet set up, wich means a huge, enormous, car advantadge and had as his oponents a rookie JV, the very same HH Frentzen Senna destroyed, Alesi, Damon Hill - who spun in lap one, and few others. If i remeber correctly, even Pedro Paulo Diniz (!) driving a Ligier (!) finished 6th... Also Ferrari, altough was an unreliable car, was a very very fast car. A very fast car with a huge set up advantadge in wet track.

On the other hand, Senna in 1993 was not the only driver with TC and had one of the greatest drivers ever, Alain Prost, driving what was called the most technologically sophisticated Formula One car of all time, incorporating anti-lock brakes, traction control and active suspension.


All this considered (car advantadge and competition) , if Donington 1993 is a bit overhyped , wich we agree, Spain 1996 should not be written in the same sentence of Estoril 1985 or Monaco 1984 or Canada 81 (but i think it had more to do with bravery than anything).

Spain 96, that was a super ultra overhyped win!


Anyway back to Vettel´s the new Senna performance, i must confess that despite beeing an Alonso fan, Lewis Hamilton is the one i think we should praise when talking about great drives.

Vettel / Webber batlle was too close in every aspect (race pace, number of mistakes under pressure, even qualifying times, etc) and i have a strong beleif Webber is not in the same league as Alain.

Just my 2 c



SEP,

I was in too much of a hurry to reply.

But you are partly right. For me: Barcelona '96 outdoes Donington '93. Because in that race the rain was again an equalizer in which mediocre to poor cars in the dry but driven by good drivers got another chance again because the rain took away car advantages for the top cars.

Nobody had traction control in 1996, it was back again to the Pre-TC days again when rain was a car equalizer again.
As I already stated and is confirmed by others too: only a few teams had traction control at Donington '93. McLaren, Williams and Jordan among them.
And that gave them an advantage that other cars lacked and instead of rain being an equalizer for the field, it only spearated the field in two classes more than ever before.
It is said that Senna humiliated the field. But for the majority of the field there is the excuse that he had a tool that was the thing to have in the rain. So you can't say he humiliated the drivers without TC, they drove in their own race, not being part of the race.
Proclaiming Senna having humiliated the other TC equipped cars is correct. But not for the entire field.
And why I rate other races by drivers who were a class in themselves in rain races other than Donington '93 higher then Donington. Like the already mentioned Monaco '72, Brazil '81 and Canada '81.
Because of the few cars that had TC, a drive like that of Marc Surer in Brazil '81 with a DFV powered garbage can on wheels was simply impossible. Something like that didn't happen in Barcelona '96 either but in theory it was much more possible to happen then in Donington.


Hence why I rate Barcelona 96 as a more impressive display of field humiliation then I do Donington '93.
And the same with some other races, like for example: Monaco '84, Estoril '85, Silverstone '88 and the often forgotten Canada '89.
(Found the simularities within those races other then that they were wet already?)
But as stated already, Gilles' performance in Canada '81, or that of Marc Surer with the Ensign in Brazil '81, and Estoril '85 are perhaps even more impressive then Barcelona '96 because of the cars these men drvive in those races.

Beside that: for me it says just about everyting there is to say when Senna himself downplays Donington '93 over Estoril '85 because of the equipment advantage (traction control) over the majority of the field. A perfect observation by the man himself and one of the finest examples of sportsmanship he displayed (for once) While his fans keep on rubbing it in how he crushed the opposition, Senna himself telling that he had help because of his car while the other drivers lacked the one tool to have that day and excusing them for being beaten solidly. Good sportsmanship for once.

I had no intention to derail the topic yet again but since you pointed out errors I made I feel it is necessary for me to stand corrected by myself as well and point out what I meant to say.
I realize that it won't make any difference for you anyway but at least I've put up my case and i'll try to leave it at this point.


Henri















#154 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,879 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 22 November 2010 - 17:10

Anyway, isn´t this post about Vettel and Senna comparison? We suposed to talk about Vettel beeing compared to the MAN, the reference, the best ever according to drivers, former drivers, F1 champions, people involved in F1 and Bernie E. What does Michael has to do with it? I see, he. Michael, also think Ayrton was the best ever but if we take this in account, we will go way OT as the majority of drivers will be in this discussion.

So, no Michael here, only the fantastic ones.


It´s always been like this, when there is any thread that touches the Senna subject (here Vettel & Senna) it gets easily out of hand and becomes Senna versus Prost or Senna versus Schumacher.
So the topic is that Ascanelli was touched by perfection at the beginning and at the end of his career, once by Senna, once by Vettel.

That is a stand alone phrase, it says much.

gio66, so Giorgio said he was not remotely interested writing the preface to your book? I had this impression, that he is quite an introvert, a bear, hard to move, and then not necessarily accommodating. The more astounding to hear such statement from him (and not the only time, he said so already when Sebastian was still at STR!)

#155 gio66

gio66
  • Member

  • 1,431 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 22 November 2010 - 17:56

gio66, so Giorgio said he was not remotely interested writing the preface to your book? I had this impression, that he is quite an introvert, a bear, hard to move, and then not necessarily accommodating. The more astounding to hear such statement from him (and not the only time, he said so already when Sebastian was still at STR!)


Yes, we are preparing a book on the F1 between 1984 and 1994 and seemed the most suitable person. In any case we already had a good interview with Pierluigi Martini, so the problem is resolved.

However, from what they say, is not easy to work with Ascanelli. On the other hand I think it's the only way to prevail in a team.

As for his relationship with Vettel, he has tremendous confidence in the German boy. In Montreal, 2008, after Friday practice, Seb was disappointed with his performance. Ascanelli explained to him that to go really fast on that track he should brush the walls, even if it means slamming. He knew that Vettel has an immense talent and has done everything to make him express.

Well done, Giorgio. :up:

#156 FerrariF1Fan

FerrariF1Fan
  • Member

  • 326 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 22 November 2010 - 19:43

I think Senna had a few more arrows in his quiver when he was Vettel's age....


:drunk:

#157 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 22 November 2010 - 19:47

Yes, we are preparing a book on the F1 between 1984 and 1994 and seemed the most suitable person. In any case we already had a good interview with Pierluigi Martini, so the problem is resolved.

However, from what they say, is not easy to work with Ascanelli. On the other hand I think it's the only way to prevail in a team.

As for his relationship with Vettel, he has tremendous confidence in the German boy. In Montreal, 2008, after Friday practice, Seb was disappointed with his performance. Ascanelli explained to him that to go really fast on that track he should brush the walls, even if it means slamming. He knew that Vettel has an immense talent and has done everything to make him express.

Well done, Giorgio. :up:


Ok, thanks a lot.

I guess your book is available in Italian. Any link, possibly by PM?

H2H

#158 FerrariF1Fan

FerrariF1Fan
  • Member

  • 326 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 22 November 2010 - 19:48

Here we go!! Bla Bla Bla . Senna was one of a kind! Nobody will match that guy he drove when f1 was hardcore! Vettel is bloody quick but doesn't compare to senna sorry.


Here we go! Bla bla bla. Senna was the bla bla bla and he will always be teh bla bla bla of those who never understood F1, IMO.

#159 FerrariF1Fan

FerrariF1Fan
  • Member

  • 326 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 22 November 2010 - 19:53

Ascanelli is certainly in the best place to judge given his experiences with both drivers, so we can't immediately laugh it off just yet.


^ Exactly! :up:

Advertisement

#160 JustinCider

JustinCider
  • Member

  • 836 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 22 November 2010 - 20:01

Here we go! Bla bla bla. Senna was the bla bla bla and he will always be teh bla bla bla of those who never understood F1, IMO.


I sort of agree with you, but to compare Vettel with Senna is absurd. No-one mentioned Button being compared against Senna when he won six races out of the first seven in 2009 (and that's one more than Vettel), yet like for like the RB06 was much better machinery than the BGP001 over the course of a season. And Button didn't crash as much, too. Nor did Senna (when he didn't want to).

#161 FerrariF1Fan

FerrariF1Fan
  • Member

  • 326 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 22 November 2010 - 20:03

Everytime there is a Donington 93 mention in a thread, this guy appears to state the Donington 93 is overhyped because of TC and blah blah blah.. forgetting to mention Senna just owned two of the best cars ever made in F1, one of them driven by a 4 time world champion


He also brings the fact that Barcelona 1996 was more impressive..

This guy must be obsessed with Senna...


And where's the problem? At least he did bring some facts to prop up his opinion. :rolleyes:

Edited by FerrariF1Fan, 22 November 2010 - 20:04.


#162 FerrariF1Fan

FerrariF1Fan
  • Member

  • 326 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 22 November 2010 - 20:04

Nobody was or is as good as Senna. Not even Senna.


:clap:  ;)

#163 Eff One 2002

Eff One 2002
  • Member

  • 868 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 22 November 2010 - 23:30

Oh gawd here we go with this shit again... :rolleyes:

#164 sosidge

sosidge
  • Member

  • 1,621 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 22 November 2010 - 23:43

For those who thinks that Vettel is as good as Senna.

IMHO Senna was much more convinced about his driving ability, and being the chief motivation for a team to win title. He chose, one may say, where to drive and became champion there, pretty much in this line of implementing his authority.

He refused to drive for Williams, Ferrari...


So why did work so hard to get the Williams drive?

#165 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 11,179 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 23 November 2010 - 00:09

They both deserve to have their WDC but Senna certainly achieved it via a longer and harder road and was a more complete driver when his WDC arrived.

By then he was a more complete driver indeed, but that was because it took so long :D

#166 Yorkie

Yorkie
  • Member

  • 2,192 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:36

So why did work so hard to get the Williams drive?

Because it was a better car than the one he was driving, even though he passed them both in the opening lap at Donnington ;)

#167 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 4,751 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 23 November 2010 - 09:45

I sort of agree with you, but to compare Vettel with Senna is absurd. No-one mentioned Button being compared against Senna when he won six races out of the first seven in 2009 (and that's one more than Vettel), yet like for like the RB06 was much better machinery than the BGP001 over the course of a season. And Button didn't crash as much, too. Nor did Senna (when he didn't want to).



That Button wasn't compared with Senna might be explained as follows:

- Button was in his 10th year in F1 when he became champion, in the 9 years before he rarely made an impact on F1 like Vettel did in his pre-WDC years. About the only year before 2009 that Button was utterly impressive was 2004. Ferrari was beaten by Renault, McLaren and Williams (1 time each) that year, not by BAR. But based on the results all season long then Button had really deserved to be one of the drivers who beat Ferrari much more then any of the ones who eventually did it.

- The 6 out of 7 by Button in 2009 is indeed far better than Vettel did this year. But much of that can be credited to the fact that once the season started the Brawn was one of only three cars that had a certain tachnical advantage (the double diffuser) with which it started the season and had it sorted out too. The majority of the other teams didn't have it and once they adopted it were denied decent opportinities to sort it out on the track due to the ban on testing.
A tiny little bit comparable with Donington that was also affected because of one technical feature on only a few of the cars and not generally available to the entire field.

- Once the field finally caught up on the Brawn and its superiority reduced, Button's race results became less impressive up to the extend that Ross Brawn's Brazilian Lap dog outdid Ross' selected primary driver. (Remember, the two final victories for Brawn GP were by Rubens, not by Jenson)
Granted. With such a point lead Jenson had every reason to take less risks and focus on scoring points to stabilize his lead instead of taking risks, throw away races (points) because of that and loose the title after all. But there is a distictive difference in the two halves of Jenson's WDC year. Come to think of it, 2009 has some simularities with 1991 when Senna won 4 out of 4 early on but once the Williams came good (if not being clear superior over the Mclaren-Honda) he won less and became challenged for the title nonetheless. But I remember Senna still fighting hard for each race later on in the year, harder then I remember Button doing in the second half of 2009.

If Vettel can be compared with Senna is food for discussion as this topic approves.
But comparing Button with Senna however is in my eyes not appropriate at all.

Henri

#168 FigJam

FigJam
  • Member

  • 2,034 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:58

If Vettel can be compared with Senna is food for discussion as this topic approves.
But comparing Button with Senna however is in my eyes not appropriate at all.


Lets be brutally blunt - comparing Vettel with Senna (or Prost/Schumacher/Fangio/Clark...etc) is not appropriate in the slightest. In fact...its an insult to every one of them.

Vettel is a great talent, no question. He has a long, long way to go before being accomplished enough to be mentioned with greats of the category though.

Anything else is just fanboy overkill. As many have said its unlikely that, pound for pound, Vettel is even the best F1 driver currently.

#169 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,879 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 23 November 2010 - 11:06

As many have said its unlikely that, pound for pound, Vettel is even the best F1 driver currently.


That´s the main problem with this issue. If Vettel is as good as Senna, then where do we put Alonso and Hamilton? Are they better than Senna then?
Or, in Ascanelli´s words, "having been touched by perfection twice" - what is Alonso´s and Hamilton´s perfection then?

So let´s keep things real,

Ayrton Senna
Michael Schumacher
Jim Clark
Juan Manuel Fangio
Tazio Nuvolari
Alain Prost
Niki Lauda
Jackie Stewart
Fernando Alonso
.
.
.
Lewis Hamilton
.
.
.
Sebastian Vettel


#170 DarthWillie

DarthWillie
  • Member

  • 1,672 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 23 November 2010 - 11:22

Lets be brutally blunt - comparing Vettel with Senna (or Prost/Schumacher/Fangio/Clark...etc) is not appropriate in the slightest. In fact...its an insult to every one of them.

Vettel is a great talent, no question. He has a long, long way to go before being accomplished enough to be mentioned with greats of the category though.

Anything else is just fanboy overkill. As many have said its unlikely that, pound for pound, Vettel is even the best F1 driver currently.

So now Ascanelli, despite his years in the sport is just a fanboy :drunk:

Lets just analyse WHAT Ascanelli said 'a similar level of ability to Senna' now that already changes the discussion fundamentally, also compared to when? Senna's third year in F1? In a Lotus with Dumfries as a teammate? Or his second year when deAngelis gave him a good run for his money?

#171 FigJam

FigJam
  • Member

  • 2,034 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 23 November 2010 - 11:53

Clearly Ascanellis comments have been taken out of context. However I still think Vettel should not be mentioned in the same sentence as any of those greats.

Yeah...its generally fanboy talk. Maybe Ascanelli is getting caught up in the romance of it all, having worked with both drivers. Now theres a thought. :lol:

#172 SEP

SEP
  • Member

  • 148 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:32

So now Ascanelli, despite his years in the sport is just a fanboy :drunk:

Lets just analyse WHAT Ascanelli said 'a similar level of ability to Senna' now that already changes the discussion fundamentally, also compared to when? Senna's third year in F1? In a Lotus with Dumfries as a teammate? Or his second year when deAngelis gave him a good run for his money?



Elio was a very good driver, a WDC material and one of the most adorable people you can ever imagine, but saying "he gave a good run for his money" when paired with Senna is a revisionism at its best.



#173 Anomnader

Anomnader
  • Member

  • 8,616 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 23 November 2010 - 18:49

That´s the main problem with this issue. If Vettel is as good as Senna, then where do we put Alonso and Hamilton? Are they better than Senna then?
Or, in Ascanelli´s words, "having been touched by perfection twice" - what is Alonso´s and Hamilton´s perfection then?

So let´s keep things real,

Ayrton Senna
Michael Schumacher
Jim Clark
Juan Manuel Fangio
Tazio Nuvolari
Alain Prost
Niki Lauda
Jackie Stewart
Fernando Alonso
.
.
.
Lewis Hamilton
.
.
.
Sebastian Vettel


Not disagreeing with you as I also always put Alonso ahead of Lewis due to outside of the car abilities, though I think lewis is faster and better racer.
But...

If Lewis another WDC (or Vettel/Button) and match alonsos tally how does that (if at all) change the rankings?

#174 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,879 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 26 November 2010 - 03:25

Not disagreeing with you as I also always put Alonso ahead of Lewis due to outside of the car abilities, though I think lewis is faster and better racer.
But...

If Lewis another WDC (or Vettel/Button) and match alonsos tally how does that (if at all) change the rankings?


Indeed, if Lewis wins another WDC he will have two titles like Alonso, but then he will probably still trail in GP wins - Alonso this year has joined an elite group of drivers like Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda, Juan Manuel Fangio and Jim Clark, not bad company, I would say.

Also for Vettel it´s still quite a while till he reaches these echelons - after all Alonso has been already a top contender in 2005/2006/2007/2010 and a strong contender in 2004 and 2008. Let us wait for three more year with Lewis and four, five more years with Vettel, then the picture will become more accurate. Indeed, let us wait till they all have ended their careers, then it will be the only realistic perspective to look at career achievement. Still, of all the active drivers safe Schumacher Alonso is probably the second best in the list of greats.

So, in terms of the Vettel/Senna comparison it is also still quite early, but I believe Ascanelli is quite serious when mentions the two in the same breath.


#175 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,615 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 26 November 2010 - 07:43

Indeed, if Lewis wins another WDC he will have two titles like Alonso, but then he will probably still trail in GP wins - Alonso this year has joined an elite group of drivers like Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda, Juan Manuel Fangio and Jim Clark, not bad company, I would say.

Also for Vettel it´s still quite a while till he reaches these echelons - after all Alonso has been already a top contender in 2005/2006/2007/2010 and a strong contender in 2004 and 2008. Let us wait for three more year with Lewis and four, five more years with Vettel, then the picture will become more accurate. Indeed, let us wait till they all have ended their careers, then it will be the only realistic perspective to look at career achievement. Still, of all the active drivers safe Schumacher Alonso is probably the second best in the list of greats.

So, in terms of the Vettel/Senna comparison it is also still quite early, but I believe Ascanelli is quite serious when mentions the two in the same breath.


Not wanting to put Alonso down but you're overstating...

Its fair to say that 'elite' had less races per season than Alonso did. Fangio's seasons were less than half of todays season in count of races, so comparing those stats is similar as comparing saying that Massa, Kubica and Rosberg 2010. got into elite group of drivers that scored over 100 points in a season. Fangio won almost 50% of races he raced, so I would not put Alonso together with him that easily.

Also, Hamilton has better % of wins than Alonso so more logical assumption would be that he would have more GP wins than Alonso has today, not less (in next 4 seasons that is, which would get him to 29 years of age).

Edited by velgajski1, 26 November 2010 - 07:47.


#176 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,879 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 02 January 2013 - 15:42

Always nice to revisit old threads - in this case here is a thread that was started at the time of Seb winning his first WDC, and an even older statement by Ascanelli putting him as high as Senna.

More than two years have passed since then - what do you think now about that statement?


#177 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 02 January 2013 - 15:51

I am dreaming about that one day I will understand evaluation criteria for racing drivers, since seven crowns means nothing to some, and Vettel, whether he likes it or not, he is now on the same pattern as Schumacher. I simply cannot shake off perception that he is being judged differently than some other drivers are.

Edited by Sakae, 02 January 2013 - 15:53.


#178 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,879 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 02 January 2013 - 15:58

I am dreaming about that one day I will understand evaluation criteria for racing drivers, since seven crowns means nothing to some, and Vettel, whether he likes it or not, he is now on the same pattern as Schumacher. I simply cannot shake perception that he is being judged differently than some other drivers are.


Seb and Michael are indeed very different personalities, and it shows. No matter if Seb "learned" to drive kart in Kerpen and is a dear friend of Michael. What Vettel is missing are infamous events like Adelaide 1994, Jerez 1997, A-1 Ring 2002, Monaco 2006 and Hungaroring 2010, to name just a few of the more "famous" ones. I think that Seb would be viewed much less favourably had he such events in his portfolio....

Interesting, that Ascanelli compares Vettel with Senna and not with Schumacher....

However, not so surprising, as Ascanelli worked only with Senna and Vettel, not with MSC - hence he is in no position to compare Seb with Michael.



#179 Kyo

Kyo
  • Member

  • 781 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 02 January 2013 - 16:25

Vettel will only be considered as good as Senna if he keeps winning titles like Schumacher did which would clearly put him in a statistical advantage or if he race against other top drivers like Alonso and Hamilton as teammates and manage to beat them.

Advertisement

#180 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • Member

  • 3,203 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 02 January 2013 - 16:43

Always nice to revisit old threads - in this case here is a thread that was started at the time of Seb winning his first WDC, and an even older statement by Ascanelli putting him as high as Senna.

More than two years have passed since then - what do you think now about that statement?

Well, he's got the same number of WDCs now and a similar pole position percentage, so on stats alone... :p

#181 MP422

MP422
  • Member

  • 1,717 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 02 January 2013 - 16:57

He's so young, Alonso and Kimi being sort of the first of the new generation of young pilots... Time will tell what legacy he will leave behind. He appears like a Schumacher type of legacy at the moment IMO... pre 2010 MSC of course. Don't get it twisted.

#182 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 02 January 2013 - 17:35


Ascanelli did make his now famous comparision at the start of a great career. So far that young driver has most certainly performed. Said that Senna is Senna, Seb is Seb and Schumi is Schumi.



#183 apoka

apoka
  • Member

  • 3,483 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:06

It's still a bit too early to make a good judgement on who is better (if that will ever be possible) - Senna raced in F1 for more than 10 years and Vettel a bit more than 5 years (less teams, less team mates).

It's interesting, however, how early Ascanelli made that his judgement and so far, he wasn't proven wrong.


#184 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,193 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:28

It's interesting, however, how early Ascanelli made that his judgement and so far, he wasn't proven wrong.

You cant 'prove' him wrong. Ever.

But anyways, 2 years on, and the comment still doesn't say he's as good as Senna! :lol:

If you insist on interpreting it like that, I'd say that it sounds just as silly still. I'd say the comparison would be more worthwhile if Vettel had a teammate that was considered 'the best in the business'(so Alonso or Lewis) and outpaced and beat them, as Senna did with Prost. At the very least, I think thats one of the big feats Senna did that really solidified his reputation as a proper legend that Vettel has not.

#185 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:50

Vettel will only be considered as good as Senna if he keeps winning titles like Schumacher did which would clearly put him in a statistical advantage or if he race against other top drivers like Alonso and Hamilton as teammates and manage to beat them.

Ascanelli considers Vettel comparable to Senna today, yet according to bizzare logic encountered on this forum, Vettel, and by implications also Senna, are ranking below Hamilton and Alonso because they haven't raced them as teammates?

#186 RayInTorontoCanada

RayInTorontoCanada
  • Member

  • 568 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:58

I think it's foolish to compare intra-era, let alone across eras.

Even now, we don't really know who is the better of Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton or even Raikkonen (to throw in another name in the ring).

All we know is that Hamilton-Alonso had one year together.

Even within a team in the same year you can't get a 100 percent picture because of luck, favoritism, driving style vs car design philosophy.

All I know is that this was supposed to be the Alonso-Hamilton era...but Vettel came along and made winners out of Minardi/Toro Rosso and RBR...and he helped make Newey into a winner again, something which hadn't been done by Newey since 1999.

In addition, Vettel "upped" his "game" hugely when the titles were on the line in 2010 and 2012 and wrestled both titles away when the bookies had Alonso as favourite at crucial points of these seasons.

Under pressure, Vettel is HUGE...and, according to all/himself, there's room to improve and more to come.


Lastly, look at where Webber finished in 2012. 6th!

That tells you a lot because Webber won Monaco for the 2nd time this year. On merit. And, at one point, Briatore was unwilling to pair up Alonso and Webber because he thought that both were (paraphrasing) "Geese that Lay Golden Eggs".

Either Webber was over-rated...Or Vettel is an all time great already.

I wonder how Alonso would react to Vettel's speed and mental strength in the other Ferrari under a 100% co-equal Number 1 policy.

As far as I'm concerened, Vettel's faster than Alonso...and...Vettel is mentally stronger than Hamilton.

As a package, I think he's the fastest/best/mentally strongest.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 02 January 2013 - 19:07.


#187 antiddd

antiddd
  • New Member

  • 5 posts
  • Joined: November 12

Posted 02 January 2013 - 19:13

There is one, at least for me, interesting thing occuring in the history of the F1: somehow I feel that the "deserved" titles balanced themselves out for the drivers over the years. To make my clumsy sentence more clear, let me put it this way: not in every season the most deserving driver won the title, yet somehow over the careers of the ones who survived, it balanced itself out nicely. IMHO, Prost was the better driver in 1988 and Senna in 1989 but in the end, they each won one title, so the compensation worked fine. Piquet might not have been the outright best in 1987 but he drove as good as anyone in 1984 or 1990, etc.

I remember how hyped Prost was in early 1980s, yet he had to wait until 1985 for the first title and in the end won 4. It, for me, balances well with other great drivers of the same era winning their fair share of titles as well (although Lauda was perhaps not better than Prost in 1984, Prost having 5 titles to Lauda's 2 would be hugely injustified. 4:3 is much fairer.). It was like some kind of "higher justice" was at work for decades and I (not religious and not superstitious) was basically very happy with it.

Now, with Vettel having 3 on the row at such a young age I'm puzzled. Is he really *that* good? Schumacher won 2 as a youngster and then had to wait for quite a long time for his 3rd. Alonso, even longer (I feel he is good enough for more). Is Vettel really the most special one, the one to win more than 7 or will he simply face a long drought now?

BTW, as a side note, I don't rate Senna as the best ever nor as one of the top 5 of all times. But Vettel's phenomenal success for such a young age is incredible.

#188 apoka

apoka
  • Member

  • 3,483 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 02 January 2013 - 19:15

You cant 'prove' him wrong. Ever.


I know the word "prove" is over-used in forums. But you probably got what I mean: He could have done a lot worse in those past years to the point that comparisons with Senna would not be valid anymore.

But anyways, 2 years on, and the comment still doesn't say he's as good as Senna! :lol:


Not directly, but he connects both by saying "at the start of my career and now at the end I have been touched by perfection".

If you insist on interpreting it like that, I'd say that it sounds just as silly still. I'd say the comparison would be more worthwhile if Vettel had a teammate that was considered 'the best in the business'(so Alonso or Lewis) and outpaced and beat them, as Senna did with Prost. At the very least, I think thats one of the big feats Senna did that really solidified his reputation as a proper legend that Vettel has not.

That's why I think we need to wait a few more years to make a good judgement. So far, Senna is ahead in my opinion because was at the top for a longer period of time (including more teams and team mates). Vettel still has a long career ahead of him though and we will say how it plays out.


#189 hogstar

hogstar
  • Member

  • 181 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 02 January 2013 - 19:46

It's unfair on Vettel to be compared to a deceased driver, as Senna's stock has got much higher since his death in '94. The myth often becomes the legend. Although he is still young and has much time on his side, Vettel will win more championships than Senna because he is a more balanced individual than Senna.

Vettel is much more in the Schumacher mould (though with a much better sense of humour!). Time will tell whether he will as great as Michael, my guess probably not, but he won't be too far away.

#190 Kyo

Kyo
  • Member

  • 781 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 02 January 2013 - 19:50

Ascanelli considers Vettel comparable to Senna today, yet according to bizzare logic encountered on this forum, Vettel, and by implications also Senna, are ranking below Hamilton and Alonso because they haven't raced them as teammates?

The only bizarre logic is the one that you are using. This is only Ascanelli's opinion and his opinion is not a consensus one that most of the drivers, engineers, managers and fans agree to (same for the majority of this forum). So people here don't think Vettel and Senna are comparable and they don't think Senna is ranking below Hamilton or Alonso. This doesn't mean Ascanelli is wrong, he may be right, but the fact remains that the vast majority doesn't think he is, and IMO most people will only change their opinions and start agreeing with Ascanelli if Vettel keeps winning titles like Schumacher did or if he race against other top drivers like Alonso and Hamilton as teammates and manage to beat them.

#191 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,193 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 02 January 2013 - 20:20

I know the word "prove" is over-used in forums. But you probably got what I mean: He could have done a lot worse in those past years to the point that comparisons with Senna would not be valid anymore.


Not directly, but he connects both by saying "at the start of my career and now at the end I have been touched by perfection".


That's why I think we need to wait a few more years to make a good judgement. So far, Senna is ahead in my opinion because was at the top for a longer period of time (including more teams and team mates). Vettel still has a long career ahead of him though and we will say how it plays out.

Yea, I can agree with all that. Apart from 2008, Vettel has had a pretty stable, success-aiding situation, with the same aero regs(for the most part) his team is really good at and the same teammate who most people would agree isn't a slouch, but not quite 'great', either. I think until some things change, his chances of keeping on doing what he's doing right now are very good. My hope is for a nice shakeup in 2014.

#192 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 02 January 2013 - 20:22

The only bizarre logic is the one that you are using. This is only Ascanelli's opinion and his opinion is not a consensus one that most of the drivers, engineers, managers and fans agree to (same for the majority of this forum). So people here don't think Vettel and Senna are comparable and they don't think Senna is ranking below Hamilton or Alonso. This doesn't mean Ascanelli is wrong, he may be right, but the fact remains that the vast majority doesn't think he is, and IMO most people will only change their opinions and start agreeing with Ascanelli if Vettel keeps winning titles like Schumacher did or if he race against other top drivers like Alonso and Hamilton as teammates and manage to beat them.

Free thinkers might not agree with your conclusions, and sometimes leading and not following herd helps dropping shackles.

- Hamilton disintegrated in 2011 and since childhood what has he accomplished other than one WCC, leaving a team in distress, running away, despite having immense resources to his disposition for years?
- Alonso caught Ferrari in upswing after Schumacher, and what has he accomplished at SF after several years other than making claims that car is too slow for him, which begs a question, how do we know that Vettel or Webber would not get more out of it?

Perhaps onus and proof of greatness is more upon both of those drivers, rather than on Vettel.


Edited by Sakae, 02 January 2013 - 20:23.


#193 antiddd

antiddd
  • New Member

  • 5 posts
  • Joined: November 12

Posted 02 January 2013 - 20:39

Free thinkers might not agree with your conclusions, and sometimes leading and not following herd helps dropping shackles.

- Hamilton disintegrated in 2011 and since childhood what has he accomplished other than one WCC, leaving a team in distress, running away, despite having immense resources to his disposition for years?
- Alonso caught Ferrari in upswing after Schumacher, and what has he accomplished at SF after several years other than making claims that car is too slow for him, which begs a question, how do we know that Vettel or Webber would not get more out of it?

Perhaps onus and proof of greatness is more upon both of those drivers, rather than on Vettel.

In fact, Alonso caught Ferrari in downswing after Kimi. Ferrari's upswing ended after 2008 and has not returned since then. However, their downfall was not complete but they failed to repeat their former glory days for non-driver related reasons mainly.

Edited by antiddd, 02 January 2013 - 20:42.


#194 antiddd

antiddd
  • New Member

  • 5 posts
  • Joined: November 12

Posted 02 January 2013 - 20:43

It's unfair on Vettel to be compared to a deceased driver, as Senna's stock has got much higher since his death in '94. The myth often becomes the legend. Although he is still young and has much time on his side, Vettel will win more championships than Senna because he is a more balanced individual than Senna.

Vettel is much more in the Schumacher mould (though with a much better sense of humour!). Time will tell whether he will as great as Michael, my guess probably not, but he won't be too far away.

:up:
Senna of today is much like Jesus Christ - a myth that bears little if any similarity with truth.

#195 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 1,974 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 02 January 2013 - 21:03

Until Vettel has been in F1 longer, driven for more teams and gone up against a top quality teammate (as Senna v Prost) I don't think I can consider him as good as Senna.

#196 Juan Kerr

Juan Kerr
  • Member

  • 2,552 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 02 January 2013 - 21:10

Not everyone in the world is a Senna fan, nothing to see here just someone with some beef towards him. If Vettel was better than Senna I'd be a Vettel fan big time and would thoroughly enjoy watching Sebastian but unfortunately it's not the case. I am not that lucky to see two Senna's in one lifetime so far. Vettel is not as good as Hamilton let alone the greatness of Senna or Prost or Schumacher.

So the thread ends there for me.

Edited by Juan Kerr, 02 January 2013 - 21:11.


#197 eric2610

eric2610
  • Member

  • 62 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 02 January 2013 - 21:14

..

However, not so surprising, as Ascanelli worked only with Senna and Vettel, not with MSC - hence he is in no position to compare Seb with Michael.



Thats not true, he worked together with Schumacher when Schumacher was at Benetton

#198 RayInTorontoCanada

RayInTorontoCanada
  • Member

  • 568 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 02 January 2013 - 21:46

Vettel is not as good as Hamilton

So the thread ends there for me.


Unfortunately I don't share your opionion.

Hamilton's mind management was, to put it mildly, atrocious in 2011.

Hamilton barely won his only title. Yes, he was the more deserving of the 2008 contenders...but this is the young man who smashed into the back of Kimi's stationary Ferrari at the red light in the Montreal pitlane that year! :down:

Vettel's mind management is close to a 10. Hamilton's been lacking and, since 2007, i'd put his mind management at 8.5 or 9.

As per pure speed...well, the jury is out.

I'm willing to bet every penny of my not unreasonable bank account that the historians are placing Vettel higher than Hamilton at this moment in time.

I imagine Vettel's on the edge of Top 10...where as Hamilton's may be in the 12 - 15 territory in terms of the Top 25 Grand Prix drivers ever.

And, by the way, I'm a HUGE fan of Hamilton! :up:

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 02 January 2013 - 21:50.


#199 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 2,699 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 02 January 2013 - 21:57

There is one, at least for me, interesting thing occuring in the history of the F1: somehow I feel that the "deserved" titles balanced themselves out for the drivers over the years. To make my clumsy sentence more clear, let me put it this way: not in every season the most deserving driver won the title, yet somehow over the careers of the ones who survived, it balanced itself out nicely. IMHO, Prost was the better driver in 1988 and Senna in 1989 but in the end, they each won one title, so the compensation worked fine. Piquet might not have been the outright best in 1987 but he drove as good as anyone in 1984 or 1990, etc.

I remember how hyped Prost was in early 1980s, yet he had to wait until 1985 for the first title and in the end won 4. It, for me, balances well with other great drivers of the same era winning their fair share of titles as well (although Lauda was perhaps not better than Prost in 1984, Prost having 5 titles to Lauda's 2 would be hugely injustified. 4:3 is much fairer.). It was like some kind of "higher justice" was at work for decades and I (not religious and not superstitious) was basically very happy with it.

Now, with Vettel having 3 on the row at such a young age I'm puzzled. Is he really *that* good? Schumacher won 2 as a youngster and then had to wait for quite a long time for his 3rd. Alonso, even longer (I feel he is good enough for more). Is Vettel really the most special one, the one to win more than 7 or will he simply face a long drought now?

BTW, as a side note, I don't rate Senna as the best ever nor as one of the top 5 of all times. But Vettel's phenomenal success for such a young age is incredible.


Though I can't completely agree, interesting thought about things balancing out over the full careers of drivers.

Comparing drivers from their own era:
Is Brabham (3) deserving of more titles than Clark (2)?
Is Piquet deserving of as many titles as Senna?

Alonso and Hamilton are great drivers, but I wouldn't say 2 and 1 titles would be an undeservingly small feat for them if they ended their careers like that. Alonso would match an all-time greats Ascari and Clark, with just one behind Senna. So nothing bad about 2 titles. Hamilton - spectactular driver, but so was Jochen Rindt or Nigel Mansell, also single title winners. Some spectacular drivers didn't win a title at all - like G.Villeneuve. Hamilton may not go into the history as the most successful drivers, but he is still among there, who have had reasonable success and shown great speed.

So which drivers have won more than 1, 2 or 3 titles? It looks like not only fast drivers, but those, who have also been great tacticians, also great at career-planning, able to choose and drive for the right teams. Brabham with 3 titles is much in the similar group. People may argue the likes of Senna and Hamilton are/were spectacularly fast, but Fangio, Prost and Schumacher chose the right teams to succeed. If you think that "titles show the truth", then Vettel is in the same group. It's not just about on-track speed, but also about being able to build a successful career and keep the momentum going to keep winning. Alonso was on course to it, but he messed up with his McLaren move and didn't quite choose the right team with a long-term view. He chose Ferrari according to his heart, while he had Red Bull and Honda/Brawn (pre-2009) offers on the table.

Advertisement

#200 Kyo

Kyo
  • Member

  • 781 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 02 January 2013 - 21:58

Free thinkers might not agree with your conclusions, and sometimes leading and not following herd helps dropping shackles.

- Hamilton disintegrated in 2011 and since childhood what has he accomplished other than one WCC, leaving a team in distress, running away, despite having immense resources to his disposition for years?
- Alonso caught Ferrari in upswing after Schumacher, and what has he accomplished at SF after several years other than making claims that car is too slow for him, which begs a question, how do we know that Vettel or Webber would not get more out of it?

Perhaps onus and proof of greatness is more upon both of those drivers, rather than on Vettel.

I will not start debating who is the greatest between these three drivers, it is not the place, and what I said in the other post has the same value to any driver, not only Vettel. If Alonso or Hamilton wants to be remembered as the best of their time they better start winning as many championships as Schumacher did or start facing each other.