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Vettel as good as Senna, says Ascanelli


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#251 H2H

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 13:35

Apparently Vettel has to pull an Alonso and prove for six straight years he can't win the WDC in anything but the best car (and maybe not even then) to be considered great.


:lol:

Close enough...



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#252 Winter98

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 13:42

All I can say is if you think he's the best thing since sliced bread then good for you. What does it matter that people like me don't rate him quite as high as you do? I don't have the over bearing worry that I'm in denial and I enjoy what I am seeing from a range of drivers on the grid. Its the strongest grid its been since the 1980's and right now I couldn't tell you which driver is the outright 'best'.


I'm guessing he probably feels the same way you do tifosiMac:

... but it drives me up the wall when fans can't give credit where its due.


Edited by Winter98, 03 January 2013 - 13:43.


#253 tifosiMac

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 13:45

I'm guessing he probably feels the same way you do tifosiMac:

Am I not giving Vettel credit then?
Oh dear, did you think you were being smart then and I burst your bubble? Sorry about that. :wave:

#254 Taxi

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 13:58

All I can say is if you think he's the best thing since sliced bread then good for you. What does it matter that people like me don't rate him quite as high as you do? I don't have the over bearing worry that I'm in denial and I enjoy what I am seeing from a range of drivers on the grid. Its the strongest grid its been since the 1980's and right now I couldn't tell you which driver is the outright 'best'.


I don't think he his in a different level, but he's a bit better than the others. Add to that he has the time on his side and has already 3 world championships. A talented guy can luck into one [Villeneuve, Button, Kimi, Rosberg, Hunt...]. When a guy wins 3, specially at his age, it's no coincidence anymore. His speed is blistering and his race pace already at the level of the best [Alonso, Kimi, Hamilton]. He needs to improve a bit in the driving among the field and stop whining when things don't go his way. But all the others have their flaws: Ultimate speed [kimi, Alonso, Button] Consistency [Hamilton, Button, Webber, Massa]. Whining [Alonso] Making silly mistakes [Hamilton], not able to adapt to little details [Kimi].

Vettel is the benchmark now, and ignoring he is great it's just a mistake that it's always done when a young boy bests the established stars. I've seen that with Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Piquet et al.









#255 Winter98

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 13:59

:up:
Yes it's simply amazing what he has achieved in such a short time


Indeed. Three WDCs on the trot guarentees Vettel legendary status.

Alonso recognizes it too, and it's driving him crazy as he watches his "best of a generation" status go down the toilet. Just look at his comments towards the end of the season.


#256 Winter98

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:02

Am I not giving Vettel credit then?
Oh dear, did you think you were being smart then and I burst your bubble? Sorry about that. :wave:


Huh?

You asked someone a question, and I was gave you the answer. Not sure what that has to do with bursting a bubble.

#257 Spillage

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:09

I never saw Senna race, but here's my two cents anyway:

I don't think Vettel is as good as Senna. Yet. This is because I don't think he, at the moment, is as good as Schumacher was. He's remarkably consistent and might go on to be that good, but right now, I don't think his peak performance is as high as Schumacher's. There used to be days right up until the end of MSC's first career where he would, suddenly ad for no discernible reason, be 1.5-2 seconds faster than the opposition. I don't even mean his most famous wins, but drive like Monza 2004 and Imola 2005 where he basically just seemed to be able to access another level over the other drivers. I don't feel we've seen this from Vettel yet; he's been very good, but in a more conventional, less jaw-dropping manner. I also think that, given people who saw the career of Schumacher tend not to place him that much higher than Senna, that Vettel is, at this point, not as good as Senna was.

The thing is though, that he's only 25 years old. There's no point comparing him with Senna at Mclaren or Schumacher in the late 90s, because they are at different stages of their careers. If you rated Senna solely based upon what you saw from 1984-1987 he'd be a great driver, but one of the greatest of all time? For this reason I think we have to respect Vettel's achievements but reserve judgement on his position among the other F1 greats at least until he turns 30.

#258 tifosiMac

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:10

I don't think he his in a different level, but he's a bit better than the others. Add to that he has the time on his side and has already 3 world championships. A talented guy can luck into one [Villeneuve, Button, Kimi, Rosberg, Hunt...]. When a guy wins 3, specially at his age, it's no coincidence anymore. His speed is blistering and his race pace already at the level of the best [Alonso, Kimi, Hamilton]. He needs to improve a bit in the driving among the field and stop whining when things don't go his way. But all the others have their flaws: Ultimate speed [kimi, Alonso, Button] Consistency [Hamilton, Button, Webber, Massa]. Whining [Alonso] Making silly mistakes [Hamilton], not able to adapt to little details [Kimi].

Vettel is the benchmark now, and ignoring he is great it's just a mistake that it's always done when a young boy bests the established stars. I've seen that with Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Piquet et al.

I just have a different opinion to you. I acknowledge Vettel is a great driver and top tier to have achieved what he has, but I don't believe he is in a class of his own. I firmly believe if you put any of the other top drivers in his position then we would have seen a similar run of championships. Its the combination that is the winner for me and Vettel has the best team around him. He's on the level of Alonso and Hamilton no doubt, but I am confident in the abilities of all the top drivers. I won't mock you for your opinion as you have a good case but I just don't fully agree with it. He may well be a 4 times WDC by this time next year but my opinion will remain unchanged. He's 'one' of the very best.

#259 tifosiMac

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:12

Huh?

You asked someone a question, and I was gave you the answer. Not sure what that has to do with bursting a bubble.

You were trying to be clever by quoting a post I made earlier to which you thought had caught me out. Unfortunately for you I have consistently given Vettel credit for his achievements when backing up my own opinions. I suggest you follow my example and make this our last interaction on this forum.

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#260 Burtros

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:23

Vettels clearly a briliant driver, there can be no question. However, so much of his sucess is clearly down to the car. Honesly, I'll never say a driver didnt deserve a title but this years title.... I dunno. It doesnt sit easy with me, and Hamilton and Alonso did vastly superior jobs than him.

Hes fast yes, talented yes, exciting? Nope. Not for me. Senna was. Also question marks remain over his position in the team and favouritism, while Webber is certainly no Prost.

Compaisions are being drawn far to soon.

#261 Winter98

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:25

I also think that, given people who saw the career of Schumacher tend not to place him that much higher than Senna, that Vettel is, at this point, not as good as Senna was.


When MS was in the midst of winning five in a row, the opinion of many on this forum, perhaps even the majority, was that he was overrated.

What's interesting is that usually the credit was given to Brawn, and it was an accepted "fact" on this forum that any of the top drivers at that time (Montoya, Button, Kimi, DC) could have done exactly what MS did if they were in his place.

Sounds familiar doesn't it.

#262 tifosiMac

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:31

Compaisions are being drawn far to soon.

As I said earlier in the thread I think we'll have a better idea to answer this question once the current crop have retired and we can analyse their careers as a whole. For all we know any of the current top drivers could go on to have a few terrible season's where they don't achieve at the maximum. Vettel is in the winning combination at the moment but I'm afraid he is being built up like others have been (Alonso and Hamilton) and the expectation to achieve at this level will be high every single season. Anything less and its a disappointment.

#263 Winter98

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:36

You were trying to be clever by quoting a post I made earlier to which you thought had caught me out. Unfortunately for you I have consistently given Vettel credit for his achievements when backing up my own opinions. I suggest you follow my example and make this our last interaction on this forum.


My apologies. I wasn't trying to "do" anything.

Obviously they thought you weren't giving credit where credit was due, and that bothered them just as it does you. I don't think this needs to go any further.

#264 Taxi

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:40

Vettels clearly a briliant driver, there can be no question. However, so much of his sucess is clearly down to the car. Honesly, I'll never say a driver didnt deserve a title but this years title.... I dunno. It doesnt sit easy with me, and Hamilton and Alonso did vastly superior jobs than him.

Hes fast yes, talented yes, exciting? Nope. Not for me. Senna was. Also question marks remain over his position in the team and favouritism, while Webber is certainly no Prost.

Compaisions are being drawn far to soon.

Ok if you think its not an enormous feat to caught up 40 points from the middle of the season and manage to win four GP's in a row to win the championship... oh well..


BTH i think that's the biggest advantage he has on the other top drivers Hamilton and Alonso its his mental strength. He bangs a fast lap or a Pole when he really needs it and makes very few mistakes under pressure. He pushes the last tenth longer and more precisely. Vettel is the image of "when the going gets tough, the tough get going"

Edited by Taxi, 03 January 2013 - 14:41.


#265 Winter98

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:44

Vettel is in the winning combination at the moment but I'm afraid he is being built up like others have been (Alonso and Hamilton) and the expectation to achieve at this level will be high every single season. Anything less and its a disappointment.


Alonso has failed to win the WDC six straight years, and it doesn't seem to be considered a disappointment. And that includes three seasons as the number one driver in the most dominant team of the era.

#266 aditya-now

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:47

I can only speak of my personal opinion but imo Senna is far better.

Why? Well.. Whenever I watched Ayrton drive, it was exciting and it made the hair on the back of your neck stand up.
I guess part of this was his pure passion for the sport and amazing charisma out of the car.

I'm not a fan of Seb's but I don't dislike him either, but watching him driving simply does nothing for me.

But even in the days before I liked Ayrton, I could see he was very special and his driving was thrilling even for a non fan.


Very well said - Senna was indeed "Magic Senna", when you watched him drive something special happened, his flair/magnetism/passion for the sport were oozing out from every lap he drove.

While Seb is driving extremely well, I cannot say that he exudes the same aura or charisma while driving - and I repeat: "while driving", meaning, you didn't have to see Senna (who was hidden behind his helmet) to feel it. "It" - that special factor, which is hard to put into words.


#267 Burtros

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:49

Ok if you think its not an enormous feat to caught up 40 points from the middle of the season and manage to win four GP's in a row to win the championship... oh well..


BTH i think that's the biggest advantage he has on the other top drivers Hamilton and Alonso is is mental strength. He bangs a fast lap or a Pole when he really needs it and makes very few mistakes under pressure. He pushes the last tenth longer and more precisely. Vettel is the image of "when the going gets tough, the tough get going"


ahh yes. The 40 point gap Alonso was able to build over him whilst driving a massivly inferior car? The same 40 point gap that was only getting bigger until Red Bull sorted their act out and gave him the best car?

I actually like Vettel. He will go down in history as one of the best, if not the best. He could beat Schumachers stats even. Its to early to go banding around names like Senna for comparisions though.


Edited by Burtros, 03 January 2013 - 14:49.


#268 tifosiMac

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:49

BTH i think that's the biggest advantage he has on the other top drivers Hamilton and Alonso its his mental strength. He bangs a fast lap or a Pole when he really needs it and makes very few mistakes under pressure. He pushes the last tenth longer and more precisely. Vettel is the image of "when the going gets tough, the tough get going"

I think he has that strength when the car is on pole but like the 'others' he is not immune from making mistakes when fighting in the pack. He's proved he can overtake and battle wheel to wheel over the past couple of season's but we haven't seen enough of it IMO because he's enjoyed the comfort of pole position far too often. His pole laps have often been compared and shown to contain mistakes but he's found the speed elsewhere on the lap to recover. I think thats why a lot of fans cling to the car advantage line. I would like to see him in positions like earlier in the 2012 season where he was struggling for pace and had to fight more often. Of course the law of probability suggests he won't have the best car forever so I think we'll see more of the real Sebastian Vettel over the coming years.

#269 Winter98

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:57

BTH i think that's the biggest advantage he has on the other top drivers Hamilton and Alonso its his mental strength.


I'm not so sure about Hamilton, but this is certainly true of Alonso. Alonso himself proved it this year with all his campaigning in the press.

Vettel is the image of "when the going gets tough, the tough get going"


Indeed. Starting on pit lane and coming back to finish third with a WDC on the line is what legends are made of. Well, assuming you win the WDC of course.

Edited by Winter98, 03 January 2013 - 15:00.


#270 gillesthegenius

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 15:03

I never saw Senna race, but here's my two cents anyway:

I don't think Vettel is as good as Senna. Yet. This is because I don't think he, at the moment, is as good as Schumacher was. He's remarkably consistent and might go on to be that good, but right now, I don't think his peak performance is as high as Schumacher's. There used to be days right up until the end of MSC's first career where he would, suddenly ad for no discernible reason, be 1.5-2 seconds faster than the opposition. I don't even mean his most famous wins, but drive like Monza 2004 and Imola 2005 where he basically just seemed to be able to access another level over the other drivers. I don't feel we've seen this from Vettel yet; he's been very good, but in a more conventional, less jaw-dropping manner. I also think that, given people who saw the career of Schumacher tend not to place him that much higher than Senna, that Vettel is, at this point, not as good as Senna was.

The thing is though, that he's only 25 years old. There's no point comparing him with Senna at Mclaren or Schumacher in the late 90s, because they are at different stages of their careers. If you rated Senna solely based upon what you saw from 1984-1987 he'd be a great driver, but one of the greatest of all time? For this reason I think we have to respect Vettel's achievements but reserve judgement on his position among the other F1 greats at least until he turns 30.


Hmmm. An interesting post. But Schumi himself might have a few answers to your doubts here...

When asked by Auto Motor und Sport if the
competition had been greater than in his first
career, Schumacher replied: "Yes, because the field is closer together. In my early days, there was always the chance to be quicker than another driver not just by a couple of tenths, but a full second. Why? Because the cars aerodynamically were not so balanced and were therefore very sharp to drive. As a driver, you then had many more possibilities yourself. Today, the cars are aerodynamically stable and well balanced; the window in which you work is not as big." However, Schumacher said it didn't necessarily mean the drivers were of a better standard today, only used to a more professional way of working. "Are the drivers of today so much better? It has always only been the best drivers who are in Formula One. Today there are more best drivers? Of course I set new standards with the way I work, but my former colleagues were on the way they were accustomed to working perfectly, and some had to replicate the new standard. The difference today is that maybe the new generation has grown up with this same scale.



#271 BoschKurve

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 15:08

I don't ever get the feeling that Vettel has the magic that Senna had. When I watch him --this is not meant to say his talent is lacking or anything of that nature-- I find there to be very little remarkable about him. He's consistent which is all you can really ask for in modern F1 since the formula favors consistency over everything else. His spatial awareness is awful though, which is a huge difference between he, and Ayrton. Senna knew exactly where other cars were, while Vettel has had quite a few mental lapses on that front.

I feel like Vettel is what I call a "stat compiler". He is in great position to rewrite many of the statistical categories in the record books, but he just doesn't have the "it" factor, which is what made Senna so amazing to watch. There was a genuine magic to his ability, whereas Vettel's driving doesn't truly stir any emotion in me. Even Schumacher who I'm not a fan of, stirred more emotion in me, than Vettel ever has to date. It could also be that the drivers now feel artificial in general, and are giant PR creations, so I don't feel much of a connection to them.

#272 gillesthegenius

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 15:10

Indeed. Starting on pit lane and coming back to finish third with a WDC on the line is what legends are made of. Well, assuming you win the WDC of course.


Thats right, and how he came back from the shambles of Korea 10 adds weight to your argument.

In any case, the very fact that we are having such a conversation just shows how far Seb has come in his very short career; especially when the people who compare themselves to Prost and Senna havent still generated such debates. (MA)

#273 mnmracer

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 15:12

His spatial awareness is awful though, which is a huge difference between he, and Ayrton. Senna knew exactly where other cars were, while Vettel has had quite a few mental lapses on that front.

Not sure Jackie Stewart, among others, agrees with that (and no, this is not only about Japan '90, I don't see that as an example).

Edited by mnmracer, 03 January 2013 - 15:13.


#274 Winter98

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 15:13

His spatial awareness is awful though, which is a huge difference between he, and Ayrton. Senna knew exactly where other cars were, while Vettel has had quite a few mental lapses on that front.


I wonder if that is a product of the improved safety standards Senna's death helped bring about?

#275 gillesthegenius

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 15:24

I don't ever get the feeling that Vettel has the magic that Senna had. When I watch him --this is not meant to say his talent is lacking or anything of that nature-- I find there to be very little remarkable about him. He's consistent which is all you can really ask for in modern F1 since the formula favors consistency over everything else. His spatial awareness is awful though, which is a huge difference between he, and Ayrton. Senna knew exactly where other cars were, while Vettel has had quite a few mental lapses on that front.

I feel like Vettel is what I call a "stat compiler". He is in great position to rewrite many of the statistical categories in the record books, but he just doesn't have the "it" factor, which is what made Senna so amazing to watch. There was a genuine magic to his ability, whereas Vettel's driving doesn't truly stir any emotion in me. Even Schumacher who I'm not a fan of, stirred more emotion in me, than Vettel ever has to date. It could also be that the drivers now feel artificial in general, and are giant PR creations, so I don't feel much of a connection to them.


Berger did once talk about this 'consistancy' - How he was able to consistantly string together mega performances, that they wouldnt appear mega anymore, as opposed to someone who manages to put together a mega performance once in a while.

Btw Senna's 'it' factor probably was largely due to his magnetic latin personality, his daring attitude and his constant implications about how he thought he was the best as much as his untimely death. But when it comes to driving alone - and I say driving alone - I find the sublimity of Sebastian Vettel and Jim Clark to excite my senses more than anyone else, including Senna.

#276 BoschKurve

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 15:29

Not sure Jackie Stewart, among others, agrees with that (and no, this is not only about Japan '90, I don't see that as an example).


You don't see it as an example, but you linked right to something that deals specifically with Japan '90?

#277 prty

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 15:36

Keep on saying that to yourself. Results don't lie. Even if it is the best car overall he still has to drive it you know. 4 years in top machinery, 3 titles a second place, 25 wins, more than 30 poles. All that in a super tide field with very fast team mate, and great oponents in McLarens and Ferraris [and those incredible Browns]. He's 25 years old, the age Senna won his first GP.

I'm actually glad people live in denial, because that will make him to be less pressured.


Yeah results don't lie, it was the best driver + car combination, I'm not denying it and of course the stats are awesome, as a result of that. The thing is, what proportion is the car and what proportion is the driver. When for example Alguersuari says that when he first tried the RBR7 in the simulator, he thought they were taking the piss, it tells you everything.
Actually, the comparison with Hakkinen someone made before is quite fitting.

#278 BoschKurve

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 15:37

Berger did once talk about this 'consistancy' - How he was able to consistantly string together mega performances, that they wouldnt appear mega anymore, as opposed to someone who manages to put together a mega performance once in a while.

Btw Senna's 'it' factor probably was largely due to his magnetic latin personality, his daring attitude and his constant implications about how he thought he was the best as much as his untimely death. But when it comes to driving alone - and I say driving alone - I find the sublimity of Sebastian Vettel and Jim Clark to excite my senses more than anyone else, including Senna.


Here's the thing about Senna, people think he was this giant risk-taker. He was far more calculating than people give him credit for. Going back to his Formula Ford and F3 days, he would push hard on the first lap when the tires were still cold just to build up a gap that would demoralize his opponents so they felt that had no chance to catch up. The rest of the race was run as needed to.

Senna's "it" factor as I see it has nothing to do with him being latin. Look at some of his qualifying videos from 1985 for Lotus. Watching the car absolutely on the limit, dancing is something no other driver could do. John Watson couldn't believe what he saw at Brands Hatch during qualifying in 1985.

#279 mnmracer

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 15:48

You don't see it as an example, but you linked right to something that deals specifically with Japan '90?

"If we compare you to other champions, in the last 36, 48 months, you have made more contact than all of them combined."

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#280 BoschKurve

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 15:56

"If we compare you to other champions, in the last 36, 48 months, you have made more contact than all of them combined."


Going for gaps and making contact is something quite different than just being unable to realize anyone is near.

#281 mnmracer

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 15:58

Here's the thing about Senna, people think he was this giant risk-taker. He was far more calculating than people give him credit for. Going back to his Formula Ford and F3 days, he would push hard on the first lap when the tires were still cold just to build up a gap that would demoralize his opponents so they felt that had no chance to catch up. The rest of the race was run as needed to.

Sounds a lot like Vettel's style, doesn't it?
Run off in the first couple laps and maintain the gap?

Berger did once talk about this 'consistancy' - How he was able to consistantly string together mega performances, that they wouldnt appear mega anymore, as opposed to someone who manages to put together a mega performance once in a while.

Btw Senna's 'it' factor probably was largely due to his magnetic latin personality, his daring attitude and his constant implications about how he thought he was the best as much as his untimely death. But when it comes to driving alone - and I say driving alone - I find the sublimity of Sebastian Vettel and Jim Clark to excite my senses more than anyone else, including Senna.

Maybe ninja's and sumari are Alonso's non-religious answer to Senna's driving with God :lol:
I agree, I also prefer Clark (and Vettel)'s smoothness. Senna was an absolute great driver, and very interesting to see, but it takes something special to be so completely in control.

#282 mnmracer

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 16:02

Going for gaps and making contact is something quite different than just being unable to realize anyone is near.

Are you referring to the 1989 Portuguese Grand Prix 2012 Brazilian Grand Prix?

#283 Taxi

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 16:03

When was the last time you saw Senna race? that's right: 18 years ago. 18 years ago we were so much younger and we were for sure much more impressionable. Humans tend to respond to emotions and Senna was all emotions. The man "saw" God and claimed to drive trough HIM. He was Jesus in a tobacco sponsored car. No one could beat that. The way he lived, the way he talked the way he prepared himself to races it was all mystic, all scenery, all "emotion" . It was a self Marketing/PR without actually realizing it. That's why people feel shivers down the spine when they see footage of him driving around Monaco or Spa. It's not like he was that much better than Prost or Piquet or Schumacher [he was in quali, but not in races]. It's the emotion, the feeling, the caption below the photo. The fellow even died almost with the same age of Christ while leading a GP.

Compare that to the mundane Prost technique that would put him in front in a effortless stile while being a 1,58m big nosed french, or to the big-mouth-playboy Piquet and it was a no brainier. And apart from those 2 [untill Schumacher comes] the field was much weaker than now.

The emotion we feel while seeing a driver depends more on us than the actual driving he's making. Sure, some performances are memorable and make us remember them forever: Senna Portugal 1985, Doninghton 1993 was above everyone. But also was Schumacher at Barcelona 1994/1996, Alonso at Hungaroring 2006 or Kimi at Spa 2009. And there must be some more that we will never know about from other drivers. Ultimately we get shivers because we like a certain driver and not the other, has I never got them while seeing Senna/Alonso/Montoya/Massa/Mansell.

Fast forward to Sebastien Vettel: You can not compare the emotions he provokes on people to Senna's. He's down to earth, very young, he's German cold type.

If we get rid of the emotions and focus on pure talent to stop the watch and to win races then that's another matter: He's up there with the greats. When he gets a bad car and can't win he will fight just like Alonso and people will start to feel the hero's emotions for him too. In no time they will be claiming for the return of the King. Until then all his wins will be "down to the car".

In WRC Sebastien Loeb took longer than his stats to be considered the all time best. I gess that's how we work.



#284 Winter98

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 16:07

Going for gaps and making contact is something quite different than just being unable to realize anyone is near.


It all comes down to risk/reward. Three WDCs on the trot prove Vettel is very good at correctly judging the situation.

#285 BoschKurve

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 16:15

It all comes down to risk/reward. Three WDCs on the trot prove Vettel is very good at correctly judging the situation.


I guess. Listen, I genuinely feel nothing for all of his titles. I know it should be impressive, yet they feel devoid to me. I suspect it has a lot to do with the current formula being so uninspiring for myself that I don't feel much excitement about the cars put out on the track.

#286 Winter98

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 16:20

I guess. Listen, I genuinely feel nothing for all of his titles. I know it should be impressive, yet they feel devoid to me. I suspect it has a lot to do with the current formula being so uninspiring for myself that I don't feel much excitement about the cars put out on the track.


Watching sports, for me at least, is all about having teams or athletes I like and cheer for...that somehow inspire me.

If they don't do it for you, they don't do it for you. Completely understandable.

#287 BoschKurve

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 17:06

Watching sports, for me at least, is all about having teams or athletes I like and cheer for...that somehow inspire me.

If they don't do it for you, they don't do it for you. Completely understandable.


I agree. It's also not that I don't like watching the races, because I do.

Vettel might be the only triple world champion I feel genuinely apathetic about. It may be also because his career is currently unfolding. So we haven't gained any real perspective yet, and likely won't for quite some time.

#288 aditya-now

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 17:23

I feel like Vettel is what I call a "stat compiler". He is in great position to rewrite many of the statistical categories in the record books, but he just doesn't have the "it" factor, which is what made Senna so amazing to watch. There was a genuine magic to his ability, whereas Vettel's driving doesn't truly stir any emotion in me. Even Schumacher who I'm not a fan of, stirred more emotion in me, than Vettel ever has to date. It could also be that the drivers now feel artificial in general, and are giant PR creations, so I don't feel much of a connection to them.


Interesting thoughts - it is true that Schumacher had more fire or even more glow in his driving than Vettel has. While I am certainly no fan of Schumacher he has that special heat when he was on one of his many hot laps.

So that is one thing, the emotion that a driver stirs in us when we see them on one of their special laps (and Vettel has special laps as well, those last minute hot laps in qualifying, but they strangely lack something in terms of atmosphere).

However, what I find so amazing about Ascanelli's comment is that he felt "touched by perfection" both by Senna and Vettel, and this is probably something that he would experience as a technical engineer or chief technical officer on that front from the driver - Senna's and Vettel's exacting technical feedback (Senna was well known for it), their knowledge of how the car would react to changes, their preciseness and accuracy - I would imagine that is what stirs the pot for a man like Ascanelli.


#289 tifosiMac

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 17:26

Indeed. Starting on pit lane and coming back to finish third with a WDC on the line is what legends are made of. Well, assuming you win the WDC of course.

Impressive as long as you have a couple of safety car periods to close the field up, it all helps enhance the greatness.

#290 jjcale

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 17:26

Not sure Jackie Stewart, among others, agrees with that (and no, this is not only about Japan '90, I don't see that as an example).


Stewart was not suggesting that Senna lacked spatial awareness (I cant imagine anyone ever doing that).... he was subtly accusing him of being a dirty driver.

#291 bourbon

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 18:02

SV will not have that one race because he does not have it in him .... he is very good but he does not have the characteristics to be great in a race (as opposed to over the course of a career by building up fantastic stats). He can do fantastic quali (his greatest strenght IMO) but I dont see anything else that makes him truely great. His racecraft is also good but not "great". He is also a very consistent - he has not had too many off days. Ally those qualities to the leading car tuned to his liking and he will be the deserving WDC he is today.

But Senna was on a different level to all but maybe 2 or three other people who have ever raced GPs http://www.youtube.c...78615D29DC6ED8E just watch what he did in a Toleman as a rookie :eek: . There is only one driver on the grid at the moment with the necessary talent to potentially hit these kinds of heights ... and his name aint Vettel.


So your point is you like Senna's style - but that is the beauty of F1, there are many WDCs with many styles, so there is someone for everybody.

#292 apoka

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 18:04

Interesting thoughts - it is true that Schumacher had more fire or even more glow in his driving than Vettel has. While I am certainly no fan of Schumacher he has that special heat when he was on one of his many hot laps.

So that is one thing, the emotion that a driver stirs in us when we see them on one of their special laps (and Vettel has special laps as well, those last minute hot laps in qualifying, but they strangely lack something in terms of atmosphere).

Schumacher was very special on those few extremely fast laps he often did in races to make his strategy work. As a supporter of both, however, I certainly don't think that Vettel's hot laps lack atmosphere. That is actually quite a surprising thing to say given his aggressive driving style.


#293 jjcale

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 18:04

Having no drivers threads is working out greatly I see. Everyone keep it up and this thread will be a monster. :up:

Vettel isn't Senna. Vettel is Vettel. He's only 25 and has about 10 more years in F1. Maybe in ten years, he'll be 10x WDC and considered the greatest driver of all times. Maybe he won't win another title. We'll see. It's too early to judge.


Also he is a different kind of driver from Senna ... aside from being very good qualifiers there is not much that is similar about them. SV is more like a Lauda IMO... or even better given his age and his ability to control a race, a Fittipaldi.

I think folks today make too much of stats.... aside from qualifying that's the other area where its possible to do a relevant comparison of SV and Senna. But stats dont tell the full story. eg both have 3 championships - but their paths to glory could not have been more different. You would need to watch race by race to properly understand this. Just looking at stats is not particularly helpful.

Edited by jjcale, 03 January 2013 - 18:05.


#294 apoka

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 18:10

Impressive as long as you have a couple of safety car periods to close the field up, it all helps enhance the greatness.

Well, there was a very long thread on that topic at the time. Summary: The SCs did help him, but not that much (especially in terms of finishing position). But it's kind of telling (and one of the main reasons he is not rated even higher) that he got those "luckiest driver" comments afterwards.


#295 Winter98

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 18:13

Impressive as long as you have a couple of safety car periods to close the field up, it all helps enhance the greatness.


Every champion since the beginning of motorsports has some good and bad through a season.

Three WDCs on the trot, and drives like Abu Dhabi and Brazil have already guaranteed Vettel a place amongst the legends of F1. To my mind that's the difference between the greats, and the almost greats: The greats get it done when everything is on the line, and earn the right to be compared to Senna. The almost greats are left to compare themselves to Senna.

#296 Taxi

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 18:47

Every champion since the beginning of motorsports has some good and bad through a season.

Three WDCs on the trot, and drives like Abu Dhabi and Brazil have already guaranteed Vettel a place amongst the legends of F1. To my mind that's the difference between the greats, and the almost greats: The greats get it done when everything is on the line, and earn the right to be compared to Senna. The almost greats are left to compare themselves to Senna.




Or James Hunt.




#297 tifosiMac

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 18:56

The greats get it done when everything is on the line, and earn the right to be compared to Senna. The almost greats are left to compare themselves to Senna.

Every World Champion on the current grid has won their title by displaying that characteristic. I find the notion Vettel is a 'great' and his nearest rivals are 'almost greats' highly laughable considering how close the top end of the grid is. It sort of gives the impression they don't have to do very much more to be wondering around the paddock feeling like chocolate and sharing this almost god like status many of you feel Vettel has accomplished lol. I never classed Senna as a great when he was around because you don't tend to do that when a driver is still competing. Its the same with Schumacher, and Hakkinen as you can't fully analyse a drivers career especially when Vettel is barely 5 years in. I think its a rather arrogant stance and maybe its fans eager to jump the gun in order to take a few of the questions away? I think its naive to label any current driver as a great just yet.

#298 Winter98

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 19:20

Every World Champion on the current grid has won their title by displaying that characteristic. I find the notion Vettel is a 'great' and his nearest rivals are 'almost greats' highly laughable considering how close the top end of the grid is.


For good or bad, that is the way history works. To make it into the top group of greats, you have to have the monster stats to back it up. Vettel has that with three WDCs, and has accomplished something only Fangio and MS managed: Three on the trot. His legacy is guaranteed.

Alonso has 2 WDCs, and Hamilton has 1. As it currently stands, they are going to be remembered in the second tier. Of course, if they can add more WDCs to their resumes, or manage one of the top winning percentages, their stock will rise. But as it sits now, historically Vettel will be considered in a higher group.

Edited by Winter98, 03 January 2013 - 19:31.


#299 Taxi

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 19:21

Well Stewart, Clark and Fangio are "greats" that didn't even race 100 GP's. If Vettel would end his career right now he would be no less no more than those 3 in terms of legitimacy.

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#300 tifosiMac

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 19:30

For good or bad, that is the way history works. To make it into the top group of greats, you have to have the monster stats to back it up. Vettel has that with three WDCs, and has accomplished something only Fangio and MS managed: Three on the trot. His legacy is guaranteed.

Alonso has 2 WDCs, and Hamilton has 1. As it currently stands, they are going to be remembered in the second tier. Of course, if they can add more WDCs to their resumes, or manage a very high winning percentage, their stock will rise. But as it sits now, historically Vettel will be considered in a higher group.

I couldn't disagree more. Just my opinion though.