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Vettel as good as Senna, says Ascanelli


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#301 Winter98

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 19:35

I couldn't disagree more. Just my opinion though.


I respect that. :)

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#302 sadsac72

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 19:39

Personally i think Senna :up: was a lot better ,just look at how well he drove in the lower teams ie toleman,lotus ,it showed he had incredible car control at any level
Vettel has only shined in the top team {ok maybe he won monza in a crap car but}put him in a HRT or cateram and see how he does :well:

#303 showtime

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 19:54

The almost greats are left to compare themselves to Senna.




#304 undersquare

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 20:03

For good or bad, that is the way history works. To make it into the top group of greats, you have to have the monster stats to back it up. Vettel has that with three WDCs, and has accomplished something only Fangio and MS managed: Three on the trot. His legacy is guaranteed.

Alonso has 2 WDCs, and Hamilton has 1. As it currently stands, they are going to be remembered in the second tier. Of course, if they can add more WDCs to their resumes, or manage one of the top winning percentages, their stock will rise. But as it sits now, historically Vettel will be considered in a higher group.

This doesn't tell us anything about what WE should think of him though.

Personally I think it's impossible to compare across eras. Also I think we really need to see Vettel in another team to know how good he is. Ferrari, alongside Alonso, would answer the question.

#305 Lone

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 20:03

Is Vettel as good as Senna? Was Michael Jordan as good a basketball player as Wilt Chamberlain, who scored 100 points in one game?

They're from different eras so it's impossible to compare who is/was the best. The only thing we can compare is success, and the fact that in a direct comparison sportsmen of today are most likely better than the sportsmen of yesterday. Thus Vettel is better than Senna and so is Alonso, Räikkonen, Hamilton etc."

And I'm sure Jordan would "destroy" Chamberlain if they played a game during Jordan's prime.

But if we're talking about who is/was more talented that's a different topic. Maybe Senna was more talented than Vettel and Chamberlain more talented than Jordan, but it's futile to compare different eras even when it comes to talent because it's impossible to judge how good the competition they had was.

I'm going to say that they are all exceptional and probably among the best ever by the mere fact that they are compared to each other!

#306 1Devil1

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 20:07

Personally i think Senna :up: was a lot better ,just look at how well he drove in the lower teams ie toleman,lotus ,it showed he had incredible car control at any level
Vettel has only shined in the top team {ok maybe he won monza in a crap car but}put him in a HRT or cateram and see how he does :well:


First of all Senna's Lotus or Toleman was no HRT or Caterham, by no means or do you want to suggest that? It was midfield car, which needed the right driver, in the right place to shine. We have seen that with Schumacher or Hamilton recently. Secondly it was much easier to overcome a car speed deficit in the 80's or in the 90's - as mentioned by Schumacher in his interview. So even Senna wouldn't be able to pull a miracle in a HRT. I have my doubt Senna prime would score a win in a Mercedes car which is rather mid class the last three years. Vettel had one year in not so good car and shone (race victory, nearly another podium). What do you want more from him? one year a midfield car : great performances. four years top material: three championships, a lot of victories and poles. He took everything which was available and that stinks for a lot of people :wave:

#307 Taxi

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 20:13


:lol: Nice find!





I wonder why this boys insist in comparing them selfs with Senna. In 2011 Hamilton should say "I feel like Andrea de Cesaris in the eighties!" Or Vettel in 2008 " I feel like Johnny Herbert in 1995 when he won 2 races unexpectedly" Or Grosjean " Yey I feel like Mika Hakkinen in Hokenheim 1994 when he wrecked half the field on his own".

Bah Senna was great but it gets anoying to hear that new Senna stuff all the time.



#308 BenettonB192

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 20:15

To be fair i can relate to those who don't want to see Vettel's greatness (yet). Back when Senna was still active i thought he was a dick and perhaps had equally (or worse) condescending thoughts about him as some have about Seb today. Only in retrospect after watching some old races again i began to appreciate his skill.

As far as direct comparisns go i think that's all nonsense. Completely different time and machinery. We will never know if the old "raw" racers would have had the multitasking ability to manage a steering wheel with 100 buttons and we will never know if the new guys would have the balls to drive a semi death trap on the limit.

edit: in that video above he refered to gearbox problems on the same track. I never heard him actualy comparing himself to any of the old F1 legends. The only who did that was Hamilton a few years ago.

Edited by BenettonB192, 03 January 2013 - 20:17.


#309 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 20:28

Please remember that this is the point under discussion;

Here we go again, two weeks after Berger claiming that Alonso belongs to the class of Senna and Schumacher, Ascanelli claims that Vettel is a good as Senna:

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/88396

"I am a very lucky man, because at the start of my career and now at the end I have been touched by perfection," Giorgio Ascanelli claims. While it sounds very Italian and a bit melodramatic, I understand what Giorgio is saying. I hold him in high esteem after having seen how he worked with Senna, and these words are surely well chosen. Ascanelli is surely not a man over the top with his statements, so this one bears even more weight.

Is it the 2010 season with all its bravado and reportedly the best season of all times (as some want to have us believe), that we have people suddenly claiming that with Alonso and with Vettel two drivers in the same class as Senna?

Having seen the race long duel between Vettel and Alonso in Singapore I must say though, that that was as close to perfection as you can get (minus the little slip Alonso had at the restart after the safety car period).

So what does everyone here on the BB think? Vettel as a good as Senna?


Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton are all off topic here.

#310 Kingshark

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 21:09

Regarding Vettel vs Senna. People now can debate all they want, but honestly, Senna is seriously overrated. People on these forums remember him far better than he actually was. I've seen Senna drive, and while he was good, nowhere near as godly as he is made out to be. I see no reason to actually believe Senna was better or more talented than Vettel in any way.

Edited by Buttoneer, 03 January 2013 - 21:46.
Removed off topic - please don't ignore moderation.


#311 1Devil1

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 21:22

Regarding Vettel vs Senna. People now can debate all they want, but honestly, Senna is seriously overrated. People on these forums remember him far better than he actually was. I've seen Senna drive, and while he was good, nowhere near as godly as he is made out to be. I see no reason to actually believe Senna was better or more talented than Vettel in any way.


You can see that in the argumentations: Vettel misses the extra spark or a user doesn't see the magic in him of Senna. All this spiritual nonsense, fitting with the picture of Senna which is established since his death. What glasses do I need to see the extra spark/magic in a driver? Vettel can win ten championships and people will say Vettel never had the magic or the aurora Senna used to have. Senna was a great driver, perhaps the best, but no god. the same goes for Vettel, Schumacher or Hamilton.

Edited by Buttoneer, 03 January 2013 - 21:47.


#312 apoka

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 22:04

He was in the same situation as Senna 1991 (gearbox problems, short shifting) and, therefore, made that comparison. Context matters.


#313 BoschKurve

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 22:49

You can see that in the argumentations: Vettel misses the extra spark or a user doesn't see the magic in him of Senna. All this spiritual nonsense, fitting with the picture of Senna which is established since his death. What glasses do I need to see the extra spark/magic in a driver? Vettel can win ten championships and people will say Vettel never had the magic or the aurora Senna used to have. Senna was a great driver, perhaps the best, but no god. the same goes for Vettel, Schumacher or Hamilton.


It's stuff like this when I talk about the spark/magic/"it" regarding Senna...



I know this was a product of the way the cars were in 1985, but there was no one else who could make a race car dance the way Senna did. It borders on unreal for me personally because I cannot fathom how a man could have that sort of car control in those days. No one else even had it, and there is always something magical about watching a guy on the limit. In Senna's case, it was just genius to watch. It's why I hate the aero focus that exists now due to the rule books because it robs us of the chance to see guys doing things that feel superhuman for a lack of a better term. You rarely see guys fighting to control the car nowadays unless it is in the rain.

It's the same thing that I feel regarding Ronnie Peterson and Gilles Villeneuve. Watching them now always makes my jaw drop...throw in Jimmy Clark as well.

Maybe Vettel is capable of doing the same sort of things, and he has done some fantastic qualifying jobs that had me a bit speechless. I just would love a chance for those things to show more visibly in the modern era.

#314 Winter98

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 23:11

Maybe Vettel is capable of doing the same sort of things, and he has done some fantastic qualifying jobs that had me a bit speechless. I just would love a chance for those things to show more visibly in the modern era.


Can't argue with that.

I got hooked on F1 in grade school in the early '70s when I met and became good friends with someone from England. His friends would forward him F1 related magazines, and a little later video tapes of race highlights, and sometimes the full races. It was amazing watching those early years (for me) of F1, and what the drivers could do with a car.

#315 Afterburner

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 23:27

It's stuff like this when I talk about the spark/magic/"it" regarding Senna...



I know this was a product of the way the cars were in 1985, but there was no one else who could make a race car dance the way Senna did. It borders on unreal for me personally because I cannot fathom how a man could have that sort of car control in those days. No one else even had it, and there is always something magical about watching a guy on the limit. In Senna's case, it was just genius to watch. It's why I hate the aero focus that exists now due to the rule books because it robs us of the chance to see guys doing things that feel superhuman for a lack of a better term. You rarely see guys fighting to control the car nowadays unless it is in the rain.

It's the same thing that I feel regarding Ronnie Peterson and Gilles Villeneuve. Watching them now always makes my jaw drop...throw in Jimmy Clark as well.

Maybe Vettel is capable of doing the same sort of things, and he has done some fantastic qualifying jobs that had me a bit speechless. I just would love a chance for those things to show more visibly in the modern era.

You last paragraph hits the nail on the head, mostly.

In addition to that, it's my opinion that the common modern F1 fan seems thoroughly disillusioned with the idea of miracles. I think if a young up-start talent did a lap like that today--say, Hulkenberg--you'd have dozens of people screaming 'it's the car' or 'obviously it's the set-up--they said they found the perfect balance between straight-line speed and cornering'. I get the impression that a lot of people today have a hard time accepting what they're seeing in F1 as anything special, and I think it's mostly due to nostalgia or, as Buttoneer has been mentioning lately in another thread, the 'Law of Diminishing Returns'.

Stuff similar to this is still there, depending on your perspective; F1 is just different now, and you need precision more than bravery alone to drive today's cars. Because the thread is about Vettel, the best example of his that I can give would be either of his qualifying laps from Monza or Suzuka in 2011, where he was visibly fighting the car at parts of each lap.

I think the most important thing, though, is to not blame the relatively sterile state of F1 on the drivers--it's not their fault they weren't able to drive the turbo monsters of the 80's; they're doing the best they can with what they're given. If I had it my way, I'd say they need to throw 4.0 litre twin-turbo V12's into today's cars, give them almost absolute freedom in the aero department, and instate minimum requirements of 800 BHP, 1,000 lbs of torque, and 20,000 RPM. Then we'd see who's who. :p

#316 HP

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 23:37

Vettel, like Senna had to compete against several WDC's. Both did it it thrice. Vettel managed to do it thrice in a row, which is an extra bon. Both being multiple WDC's is no mean feat.

Senna won his WDC's in the best car too, so there are clear similarities. But there were few WDC's that have won the crown in a clearly inferior car. And frankly, that better car argument is always a convenient explanation for those who didn't get the job done.

Like any racer do, they made mistakes, but what is important to me, they learned from it and continued to win. If I want I can find weaknesses in both of them, but at the end of a season they made a better job than anyone else.

Otherwise there are many differences. And that is the beauty of racing. There is no "one style win's it all" approach to the game. If it were, we put 20 <insert drivers name here> on the track, and end all discussion. But who wants that?

And if I am allowed to make a prediction. Vettel's career in the end should look better than Senna's. The shame is that in this age drivers need to be family and corporate savvy. That's one advantage Senna had. In his time it was easier to build some mystical legacy. The crux in today's time and age is that we have too much data at our hands, and so everything is analyzed to death, taking the ground away for legends to grow. There's not much room for a legacy of the old times to build. However on second view, they both had to earn their WDC's by being better than rest. And with 3 WDC's each to their names, they did it better so far than most others that graced F1 til now.



#317 bourbon

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:17

Vettel, like Senna had to compete against several WDC's. Both did it it thrice. Vettel managed to do it thrice in a row, which is an extra bon. Both being multiple WDC's is no mean feat.

Senna won his WDC's in the best car too, so there are clear similarities. But there were few WDC's that have won the crown in a clearly inferior car. And frankly, that better car argument is always a convenient explanation for those who didn't get the job done.

Like any racer do, they made mistakes, but what is important to me, they learned from it and continued to win. If I want I can find weaknesses in both of them, but at the end of a season they made a better job than anyone else.

Otherwise there are many differences. And that is the beauty of racing. There is no "one style win's it all" approach to the game. If it were, we put 20 <insert drivers name here> on the track, and end all discussion. But who wants that?

And if I am allowed to make a prediction. Vettel's career in the end should look better than Senna's. The shame is that in this age drivers need to be family and corporate savvy. That's one advantage Senna had. In his time it was easier to build some mystical legacy. The crux in today's time and age is that we have too much data at our hands, and so everything is analyzed to death, taking the ground away for legends to grow. There's not much room for a legacy of the old times to build. However on second view, they both had to earn their WDC's by being better than rest. And with 3 WDC's each to their names, they did it better so far than most others that graced F1 til now.


Exactly. :up:

#318 Sakae

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:37

Regarding Vettel vs Senna. People now can debate all they want, but honestly, Senna is seriously overrated. People on these forums remember him far better than he actually was. I've seen Senna drive, and while he was good, nowhere near as godly as he is made out to be. I see no reason to actually believe Senna was better or more talented than Vettel in any way.

While I would never try diminish Senna as a racer, I too detect that posthumously fame of his racecraft skills seems to be growing every time case comes up. (One cen detect the same mantra about certain two drivers of our time). Ayrton Senna was a top notch racer, no doubt, but so was Prost, and whilst Ascanelli has more clarity on that subject than most of us, at the end its just an opinion of one man who was there, and knew Senna personnaly on professional level. We allow ourselves on this forum criticism of Moss, Stewart, and others, thus I understand when some fans do critique Ascanelli for his opinion as well, especially if his words do not fit into their perception they have about Senna and Vettel.

Edited by Sakae, 04 January 2013 - 07:50.


#319 Sakae

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:50

...The shame is that in this age drivers need to be family and corporate savvy. That's one advantage Senna had. In his time it was easier to build some mystical legacy. The crux in today's time and age is that we have too much data at our hands, and so everything is analyzed to death, taking the ground away for legends to grow. There's not much room for a legacy of the old times to build. However on second view, they both had to earn their WDC's by being better than rest. And with 3 WDC's each to their names, they did it better so far than most others that graced F1 til now.

You are rasing very important point, which is often neglected in these discussions, namely, with advent of the internet, and almost instant access to everything, drivers of our time are under microscope to which Senna, Prost and others of that era escaped to large degree. I have often wondered what we would learned about those men, had they been subjected the same scrutiny. It is, at least for me, important to hear from the eye-witness like Ascanelli, who has something substantive to contribute from professional point of view, free of agenda one can detect quite often in other comments from former racers.

Edited by Sakae, 04 January 2013 - 07:51.


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#320 gillesthegenius

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:34


:clap: Great job of twisting one's words to suit your agenda.

The Interesting thing about that comment - that you are so eager to overloook - is that any Tom, Dick and Harry including me and you can legitimately claim that we felt like Senna if we suddenly lost gears in the middle of a race, especially if it occured in the very same track that Senna encountered his own gear box issues. Its not a suggestion that one is as good as Senna, but rather an appreciation of how hard it must have been for Senna on that particular day. :rolleyes:

#321 tifosiMac

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:55

The cars were also a lot harder to drive in the 1980's than they are today. Schumacher stated this not so long ago and admitted he hasn't struggled with the physical side of things because the cars handle much better and its less strain on the body. You can't compare the talent of Senna and Vettel because the era's are so different. One thing is for certain and thats the fact both are key drivers from their generation.

#322 Group B

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:14

You can see that in the argumentations: Vettel misses the extra spark or a user doesn't see the magic in him of Senna. All this spiritual nonsense, fitting with the picture of Senna which is established since his death. What glasses do I need to see the extra spark/magic in a driver? Vettel can win ten championships and people will say Vettel never had the magic or the aurora Senna used to have. Senna was a great driver, perhaps the best, but no god. the same goes for Vettel, Schumacher or Hamilton.

Indeed. The whole spiritual thing is rather curious and not very tangible. Some people say Lewis is Senna's spiritual successor, but so far as I can fathom the only obvious qualyfication for this accolade is to spend at least 10 minutes at some point duing every race weekend staring into the distance looking sullen. Both fantastically talented drivers, probably the most naturally gifted of their respective generations, but the mushy Mystic Meg stuff does nothing to make me like/respect/appreciate them more.

#323 showtime

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:20

:clap: Great job of twisting one's words to suit your agenda.

The Interesting thing about that comment - that you are so eager to overloook - is that any Tom, Dick and Harry including me and you can legitimately claim that we felt like Senna if we suddenly lost gears in the middle of a race, especially if it occured in the very same track that Senna encountered his own gear box issues. Its not a suggestion that one is as good as Senna, but rather an appreciation of how hard it must have been for Senna on that particular day. :rolleyes:


Care to provide a quote from any other driver claiming he is as good as Senna?

#324 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:32

Care to provide a quote from any other driver claiming he is as good as Senna?

He didn't. It appears that you're deliberately misconstruing his words, despite the circumstances having been explained to you, or perhaps it needs further explanation?

#325 showtime

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:45

He didn't. It appears that you're deliberately misconstruing his words, despite the circumstances having been explained to you, or perhaps it needs further explanation?


"The greats get it done when everything is on the line, and earn the right to be compared to Senna. The almost greats are left to compare themselves to Senna."

I wonder who could he be referring to so I looked for quotes of active drivers comparing themselves to Senna and the closest thing I found was that quote from Vettel. Of course there was a context, there's always one, but as it was pointed before he has been in similar situations to other drivers and he didn't say anything.

#326 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:26

So close...

You skim over the context without comment when it is the most important aspect of what he said.

#327 showtime

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:38

So close...

You skim over the context without comment when it is the most important aspect of what he said.


He compared himself to Senna ON THAT SITUATION. Happy? My point still stands, what drivers has compared himself to Senna IN ANY PARTICULAR CONTEXT other than Vettel?

#328 aditya-now

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:45

So close...

You skim over the context without comment when it is the most important aspect of what he said.



I wouldn't discard the fact that Seb has started to build his own legend - he is very conscious of F1 history and at the same time it never hurts to compare yourself with Senna. Looking at Lewis and his multiple times comparing himself with Senna, however, Vettel is just an orphan boy....

Also, it would take at least another time when Seb compares himself with Senna to see any pattern there.

FOM and the world feed must be highly interested in getting such quotes from the drivers - it is quite media savvy to have such radio messages. The lukewarm response of Vettel's technical engineer, however, shows that it was not coming across as enthusiastically.


But we disgress.

The point to me that is largely overlooked in this thread is not "can we compare Vettel with Senna" but rather: how did Ascanelli mean his uttering?

Giorgio surely did not say this from a fan's perspective but rather from a technical engineer's perspective. It must be in this area that there are similarities between Senna and Vettel - their technical understanding, their devotion (like Senna, Vettel usually stays in the pits longer than any other driver), their application, their accuracy, their preciseness in feedback and their ability to presage how a small set-up change might work on the car are probably all areas in which Ascanelli felt "touched by perfection".

Notably, as I was reminded in this thread, Ascanelli also worked with Schumacher but he did not feel touched by perfection from Michael.

#329 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:56

He compared himself to Senna ON THAT SITUATION. Happy? My point still stands, what drivers has compared himself to Senna IN ANY PARTICULAR CONTEXT other than Vettel?

You said above "Care to provide a quote from any other driver claiming he is as good as Senna?"

Vettel said "I feel like Senna in '91" in the context that he finished a race, in Brazil, with a broken gearbox, just like Senna did in '91.

You've got nothing on Vettel here. At all.

@ aditya - your comment has no relevance to my comment at all. We are discussing the meaning of Vettel's comment.

#330 showtime

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:59

I wouldn't discard the fact that Seb has started to build his own legend - he is very conscious of F1 history and at the same time it never hurts to compare yourself with Senna. Looking at Lewis and his multiple times comparing himself with Senna, however, Vettel is just an orphan boy....


When did it happen? I know he has (had?) a bit of an obsession with the figure of Senna and talked too much about him for my liking but I don't remember any comparison.


#331 Sakae

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:00

...Notably, as I was reminded in this thread, Ascanelli also worked with Schumacher but he did not feel touched by perfection from Michael.

Now, that's your personal spin on subject matter, aditya, since you do not know context in which this remark was ushered. Ascanelli for all what we know, might have been merely focusing on Vettel, and not all drivers he knew. Similarities between two personalities does not diminishes others, as far as I can determine.

#332 showtime

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:06

You said above "Care to provide a quote from any other driver claiming he is as good as Senna?"

Vettel said "I feel like Senna in '91" in the context that he finished a race, in Brazil, with a broken gearbox, just like Senna did in '91.

You've got nothing on Vettel here. At all.

@ aditya - your comment has no relevance to my comment at all. We are discussing the meaning of Vettel's comment.


Since you seem to be the judge here to decide who has a case or not I ask you (again) to take a look at the sentence I've been quoting from the start and look if he had "something on" any driver or not. Thanks.

#333 tifosiMac

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:11

When did it happen? I know he has (had?) a bit of an obsession with the figure of Senna and talked too much about him for my liking but I don't remember any comparison.

He did say he wanted to emulate Senna like they all do, but no direct comparison has been made.

I also don't think Vettel has compared his driving abilities to that of Senna either. Saying you 'feel like Senna in '91' over the pit radio is totally justified IMO. He was entitled to say what he felt as its a personal feeling. He was after all sat in an F1 car after a victory and enjoying similar emotions to his hero. I have no problem with that and personally I don't think many would have worried if he said he felt like 'Clark in '65' . There seems to be an overprotective attitude towards Senna's legacy and any mention of it gets a negative reaction. I bet Hamilton felt like Senna when he won his WDC in Brazil. So what.

#334 gillesthegenius

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:12

When did it happen? I know he has (had?) a bit of an obsession with the figure of Senna and talked too much about him for my liking but I don't remember any comparison.


There is atleast one quote that brings Lewis himself, Alonso, Prost and Mansell into the picture beside the two drivers that this thread is dedicated to discuss. So I wouldnt want to go further into that comment for the sake of keeping this thread on topic. :wave:

#335 showtime

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:19

He did say he wanted to emulate Senna like they all do, but no direct comparison has been made.

I also don't think Vettel has compared his driving abilities to that of Senna either. Saying you 'feel like Senna in '91' over the pit radio is totally justified IMO. He was entitled to say what he felt as its a personal feeling. He was after all sat in an F1 car after a victory and enjoying similar emotions to his hero. I have no problem with that and personally I don't think many would have worried if he said he felt like 'Clark in '65' . There seems to be an overprotective attitude towards Senna's legacy and any mention of it gets a negative reaction. I bet Hamilton felt like Senna when he won his WDC in Brazil. So what.


I was never criticizing Vettel for that comment.

#336 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:20

Since you seem to be the judge here to decide who has a case or not I ask you (again) to take a look at the sentence I've been quoting from the start and look if he had "something on" any driver or not. Thanks.

You quoted that sentence from a post in which the author had already put Vettel firmly in the category of 'greats' and therefore transcends the second half of the quote, which is reserved for others. Vettel did not compare himself, in those terms, with Senna but the situation they both shared. It shows only that Vettel has a good understanding and appreciation for the history of the sport.

You'd best ask the original poster who exactly he meant because it wasn't Vettel.

#337 showtime

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:43

You quoted that sentence from a post in which the author had already put Vettel firmly in the category of 'greats' and therefore transcends the second half of the quote, which is reserved for others. Vettel did not compare himself, in those terms, with Senna but the situation they both shared. It shows only that Vettel has a good understanding and appreciation for the history of the sport.

You'd best ask the original poster who exactly he meant because it wasn't Vettel.


I know it wasn't Vettel, we all know who he meant (and the fact he is incapable of not having a go at other drivers when discussing about something Vettel related). I just pointed at the irony of accusing other drivers of comparing themselves to Senna when the closest thing to that was made by Vettel.

Edited by showtime, 04 January 2013 - 11:44.


#338 mnmracer

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:28

I know it wasn't Vettel, we all know who he meant (and the fact he is incapable of not having a go at other drivers when discussing about something Vettel related). I just pointed at the irony of accusing other drivers of comparing themselves to Senna when the closest thing to that was made by Vettel.


You are the one claiming Vettel claimed he was as good as Senna.
"Care to provide a quote from any other driver claiming he is as good as Senna?"

#339 showtime

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:33

You are the one claiming Vettel claimed he was as good as Senna.
"Care to provide a quote from any other driver claiming he is as good as Senna?"


I didn't.

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#340 LiJu914

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:53

He compared himself to Senna ON THAT SITUATION. Happy? My point still stands, what drivers has compared himself to Senna IN ANY PARTICULAR CONTEXT other than Vettel?



Hamilton did..several times.
E.g. (paraphrasing)
After his first win in the rain he said, he was very pleased being able to do what Senna did, when he watched him racing as a kid.
In 2011 first he gave an interview in which he compared the current situation of the grid with the 80s, with him being Senna, Alonso being Prost and Vettel being Mansell...then at Monaco he said, he feels, he could own this track like Senna did...

Pleased now?


Ps. Still nothing wrong with Hamilton´s comments imho.


#341 showtime

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:56

Hamilton did..several times.
E.g. (paraphrasing)
After his first win in the rain he said, he was very pleased being able to do what Senna did, when he watched him racing as a kid.
In 2011 first he gave an interview in which he compared the current situation of the grid with the 80s, with him being Senna, Alonso being Prost and Vettel being Mansell...then at Monaco he said, he feels, he could own this track like Senna did...

Pleased now?


Ps. Still nothing wrong with Hamilton´s comments imho.


Thanks for that. :up:


#342 jj2728

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 13:35

Regarding Vettel vs Senna. People now can debate all they want, but honestly, Senna is seriously overrated. People on these forums remember him far better than he actually was. I've seen Senna drive, and while he was good, nowhere near as godly as he is made out to be.


Then we must have seen a different Senna drive. The first time I saw him was 1985 and I remarked to my colleagues that he reminded me of Clark. I'd really like to know your thoughts behind why you think he is overrated. Don't get me wrong, I don't make him out to be godlike in any way shape or form, I think that's a moniker coined by those that never did see him race.

#343 mnmracer

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 13:47

Then we must have seen a different Senna drive. The first time I saw him was 1985 and I remarked to my colleagues that he reminded me of Clark. I'd really like to know your thoughts behind why you think he is overrated. Don't get me wrong, I don't make him out to be godlike in any way shape or form, I think that's a moniker coined by those that never did see him race.

He is overrated when he is made out to be godlike.
He is overrated when every positive thing that can be said about a driver, automatically applies to Senna.
He is overrated when people misrepresent history and act like he won 3 championships in dogs of cars and battled his way from the back to the front of the field every other race.
He is overrated when everything Senna did and accomplished, was solely his doing, and he never had the help of a good car or a good set-up (excuses constantly used against Vettel).
Because fact is, like Vettel (and almost all other top drivers), he won most of his races in fast cars from the front of the grid.

If you don't rate him like that, then congratulations, this doesn't apply to you and I wish you a happy new year ;-)

#344 jj2728

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 14:33

He is overrated when he is made out to be godlike.
He is overrated when every positive thing that can be said about a driver, automatically applies to Senna.
He is overrated when people misrepresent history and act like he won 3 championships in dogs of cars and battled his way from the back to the front of the field every other race.
He is overrated when everything Senna did and accomplished, was solely his doing, and he never had the help of a good car or a good set-up (excuses constantly used against Vettel).
Because fact is, like Vettel (and almost all other top drivers), he won most of his races in fast cars from the front of the grid.

If you don't rate him like that, then congratulations, this doesn't apply to you and I wish you a happy new year ;-)


No, I don't rate Senna like that. So I guess it does not apply to me. I rate him on what I saw at the track from 1985 through 1993. Not on tv, but actually at the track(s). For me, Hamilton is the one who most closely reminds me of Senna. It's my personal take. For me the jury is still out as to whether Vettel is as good as Senna.

#345 ali_M

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 14:51

Until Vettel has been in F1 longer, driven for more teams and gone up against a top quality teammate (as Senna v Prost) I don't think I can consider him as good as Senna.



The underlying sense you sense here is correct - even so the aura of the young man needs something extra - to be as epic as Senna will not be as easy as Ascanelli voiced forth in his now famous uttering...


Vettel has won 3 championships in a row. Newey has been in F1 since 1999 and no championships, yet it's all Newey and with Vettel really not having that much to do with it.... 'Oh, he's doing a GOOD job isn't he?' is a typical comment. Nothing special there. All the difficulty involved in winning 3 championships in a row is thrown out. Too darned good to be true... surely it's all Newey, the might of RBR and the cockups of the other teams.... not the drivers of the other teams.

He's not good as Senna until <insert condition here>. I put it to you there'll always be a condition there that's NEVER, EVER, EVER met in the eyes of some.

Vettel is so outwardly simple in his aura while achieving so much. OTOH, Senna had HUGE presence. He was outwardly fiercely competitive, quite open in expressing his deeper self as a direct result of his huge self-confidence and Latin temperament/style. There was also huge rivalry with palpably fierce competition. As a result of this Vettel's achievements aren't taken as seriously. He doesn't seem to be making that much effort, is he. He doesn't soliloquise on the metaphysical aspects of his driving or take on the antics of other teams/drivers in an antagonistic manner while taking the moral high ground. None of that drama. Just simple racing that has those who expect the drama trying to make sense of it.

No, it just can't be......

Well, it just keeps getting better is all, but we find it difficult to let go at times, don't we.

It would seem that Ascanelli had a serious point to make and I applaud his predictions. It's no surprise that Vettel is achieving what he's achieving if Ascanelli's opinion is true.

Vettel keeps reiterating how challenging it is to do what he has done. However, there's something lacking in his aura that is not convincing about it. I think that though this affects his credibility now, it will rebound and be seen as one of his strengths later. IOW's, he's so darned good and yet, so unassuming about it.

Edited by ali_M, 04 January 2013 - 14:55.


#346 Kyo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 15:14

"If we compare you to other champions, in the last 36, 48 months, you have made more contact than all of them combined."

All of them are Prost and Piquet and I believe Senna was right when he said it was not true.

#347 mnmracer

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 15:15

All of them are Prost and Piquet and I believe Senna was right when he said it was not true.

The fact it's an exaggeration does not mean Senna did not more often than other champions before him run into people.

#348 Kyo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 15:35

The fact it's an exaggeration does not mean Senna did not more often than other champions before him run into people.

Until someone really count how many incidents with other drivers each champion had this is merely speculative. I'm certain Senna was not the best in avoiding incidents but he probably wasn't the worst too.

Edited by Kyo, 04 January 2013 - 15:36.


#349 Sakae

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 15:36

No, I don't rate Senna like that. So I guess it does not apply to me. I rate him on what I saw at the track from 1985 through 1993. Not on tv, but actually at the track(s). For me, Hamilton is the one who most closely reminds me of Senna. It's my personal take. For me the jury is still out as to whether Vettel is as good as Senna.

I wonder whether we were/are watching the same series. My first race at Kyalami was in 1974, and it is not my recollection that Senna would be wiining in a bad car, and despite him being extremely fast driver, I think on racecraft Prost was at another level. Unfortunately some press could not handle that, which is why we talk mostly about Senna, instead Alain. To elevate Hamilton into that tier of drivers I think does disservice to them. Getting this out of way, and before we take a jump off the cliff, it would be nice to obtain some aditional explanation what aspect of racing Ascanelli was actually talking about.

Edited by Sakae, 04 January 2013 - 15:41.


#350 mnmracer

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 15:42

Until someone really count how many incidents with other drivers each champion had this is merely speculative. I'm certain Senna was not the best in avoiding incidents but he probably wasn't the worst too.

The point of it in this thread though, is that Vettel is not the only one to have run-ins with others.