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Former racing teams


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#1 BRG

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 16:27

In light of the furore over which of the vultures 'owns' the rights to the name Team Lotus, does anyone know offhand where ownership lies of the other defunct racing teams such as Brabham, BRM, Ensign, Arrows, Shadow, Wolf, Tecno, and so on? Feel free to add your own favourite former team! And to go beyond F1 if you care to.

Tyrell is presumably now owned by Mercedes? And Surtees by Surtees?

Edited by BRG, 20 November 2010 - 16:37.


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#2 buckaluck

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 16:57

Well Don Nichols owns the rights to the Shadow team but if someone offered enough money i'm sure he'd take it. LOL Actually Don is a good person and most likely would help someone if they wanted to revive the team name. It would be a team I'd like to see start up again and he almost did a Le Mans cars some years back.
Since Walter Wolf is still alive but sold his assets to Fittipaldi not sure who would own the rights to the name Wolf I'm sure the name didn't go to Emerson. It would be nice to see either Wolf or BRM or even March back in the series but i'm older and kids that are getting into this sport must want to see new names for teams as most kids under 30 might not remember most of these teams. The lotto is tonight so maybe i'll give Don a call Sunday if I win I'd like to see Shadow Racing back at it. LOL

Edited by buckaluck, 20 November 2010 - 17:04.


#3 Radoye

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 17:07

Since Walter Wolf is still alive and he bought 60% of Williams along with the assets of Hesketh I'd wonder if he is still involved with Williams and if Williams owns the rights to Wolf or Hesketh names or if Walter does.

The current Williams F1 team is a new entity that Sir Frank established after falling out with Walter Wolf and leaving his old team which Wolf bought out under him.

#4 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 17:49

If a team is not active, and no activity is pursued under the name which they once operated under, and presumably the legal corporation which held the name is defunct.

Do the original owner really own the name for ever?

I would presume that it would expire after 'x' years.

:cool:

#5 buckaluck

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 20:49

If a team is not active, and no activity is pursued under the name which they once operated under, and presumably the legal corporation which held the name is defunct.

Do the original owner really own the name for ever?

I would presume that it would expire after 'x' years.

:cool:


Exoto got into lots of legal problems because they didn't get permission from Jim Hall to produce their Chaparral 2E so i'd say they own the rights to the team names even if they are not active.

#6 uechtel

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 23:00

Trademark law seems to be a complicated thing, in particular on international level, and it may be also different from country to country. Basically I think the trademark belongs to the one, who actually claimed it first for a certain purpose and a certain area. If you do not keep this claim up the name rights will get 'free' again and can be claimed by others. Thus I think for example 'Brabham' belongs to two different owners at the moment:

http://forums.autosp...w...&hl=brabham

Edited by uechtel, 20 November 2010 - 23:01.


#7 rdmotorsport

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 23:20

Trademark law seems to be a complicated thing, in particular on international level, and it may be also different from country to country. Basically I think the trademark belongs to the one, who actually claimed it first for a certain purpose and a certain area. If you do not keep this claim up the name rights will get 'free' again and can be claimed by others. Thus I think for example 'Brabham' belongs to two different owners at the moment:

http://forums.autosp...w...&hl=brabham



Theodore,Life,Ensign,Hesketh,RAM etc. sad thing is I worked for some of these!

#8 frp

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 01:53

Theodore,Life,Ensign,Hesketh,RAM etc. sad thing is I worked for some of these!

Something to be very proud of, I'd say! Even Life (well, perhaps).  ;)

Andy

#9 BRG

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 12:40

I'd forgotten about the Veritas/Brabham business. Where has that got to?

#10 rdmotorsport

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 19:55

Something to be very proud of, I'd say! Even Life (well, perhaps). ;)

Andy


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#11 frp

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 21:14

Life paid the best and wonderful restaurants around their workshops in Northern Italy

Sounds good to me!

#12 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 22:54

Well, as for BRM, the company and trade name is still owned by the Owen Organisation and that organisation still sponsor Dickie Attwood's Hitoric Team BRM and the P261. So there's one link not lost, at least. :)

#13 Bloggsworth

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 10:07

If a team is not active, and no activity is pursued under the name which they once operated under, and presumably the legal corporation which held the name is defunct.

Do the original owner really own the name for ever?

I would presume that it would expire after 'x' years.

:cool:


If the name is registerd as a Trade Mark "™" or as a Registered name "®" then it is in the possession of the company or person that owns it, and can be traded as a commodity and frequently change hands, for instance all the Cadbury ones are now owned by Kraft. I assume that rules apply as to longevity, but don't know what they are.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 22 November 2010 - 10:10.


#14 BRG

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 17:33

I hesitate to mention it lest someone sues me for invasion of privacy, but who owns the MARCH name nowadays?

#15 HistoryFan

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 19:41

I hesitate to mention it lest someone sues me for invasion of privacy, but who owns the MARCH name nowadays?


Andrew Fitton - he apply for a slot in the 2010 F1 WC


#16 brakedisc

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 20:46

The modern Ecurie Ecosse are very keen on protecting their copywright. The following appears on their website,


"The Copyright Issue
We have been concerned for some time that the name and images of Ecurie Ecosse have been used illegally in entry forms and in producing memorabilia which has not been authorised by the Ecurie Ecosse company.

As a result Ecurie Ecosse will now pursue all cases where the Ecurie Ecosse name and logos have been used without official permission.

Please note that the Ecurie Ecosse badges in their various forms, the name etc. are fully covered in International copyright law and Ecurie Ecosse 2000 Ltd will pursue companies or individuals seeking to trade on the Ecurie Ecosse name and logos.

Legitimate Ecurie Ecosse merchandise, logos etc. are only available though this web site and permission to use the name or logos can only be obtained through Ecurie Ecosse 2000 Ltd. "


#17 Bloggsworth

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 21:38

The modern Ecurie Ecosse are very keen on protecting their copywright. The following appears on their website,


"The Copyright Issue
We have been concerned for some time that the name and images of Ecurie Ecosse have been used illegally in entry forms and in producing memorabilia which has not been authorised by the Ecurie Ecosse company.

As a result Ecurie Ecosse will now pursue all cases where the Ecurie Ecosse name and logos have been used without official permission.

Please note that the Ecurie Ecosse badges in their various forms, the name etc. are fully covered in International copyright law and Ecurie Ecosse 2000 Ltd will pursue companies or individuals seeking to trade on the Ecurie Ecosse name and logos.

Legitimate Ecurie Ecosse merchandise, logos etc. are only available though this web site and permission to use the name or logos can only be obtained through Ecurie Ecosse 2000 Ltd. "


If the company was only incorporated in the year 2000, did they actually acquire title to the name, or usurp it, if the latter, they would not be able to legally persue anybody using Ecurie Ecosse designs & logos dating from before 2000. Will they wander round the world suing owners of C & D typte Jaguars painted blue with lateral stripes on their noses?

Edited by Bloggsworth, 22 November 2010 - 21:42.


#18 tyrrellp346wheels

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 21:50

Tyrell is presumably now owned by Mercedes? And Surtees by Surtees?


I believe the Tyrrell name is owned by a company called Tyrrell Promotions as it was on the back of a Hotwheels Tyrrell P34 I brought recently.

#19 MCS

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 06:35

I believe the Tyrrell name is owned by a company called Tyrrell Promotions as it was on the back of a Hotwheels Tyrrell P34 I brought recently.



Bob Tyrrell's company then...? Or did he sell it?


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#20 Tim Murray

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 06:54

The modern Ecurie Ecosse are very keen on protecting their copywright. The following appears on their website,


"The Copyright Issue
We have been concerned for some time that the name and images of Ecurie Ecosse have been used illegally in entry forms and in producing memorabilia which has not been authorised by the Ecurie Ecosse company.

As a result Ecurie Ecosse will now pursue all cases where the Ecurie Ecosse name and logos have been used without official permission.

Please note that the Ecurie Ecosse badges in their various forms, the name etc. are fully covered in International copyright law and Ecurie Ecosse 2000 Ltd will pursue companies or individuals seeking to trade on the Ecurie Ecosse name and logos.

Legitimate Ecurie Ecosse merchandise, logos etc. are only available though this web site and permission to use the name or logos can only be obtained through Ecurie Ecosse 2000 Ltd. "

If the company was only incorporated in the year 2000, did they actually acquire title to the name, or usurp it, if the latter, they would not be able to legally persue anybody using Ecurie Ecosse designs & logos dating from before 2000. Will they wander round the world suing owners of C & D typte Jaguars painted blue with lateral stripes on their noses?

There are apparently no fewer than eight registered companies which have 'Ecurie Ecosse' as part of their name:

http://www.checksure...anies_ec_23.htm

(you need to scroll down quite a way to find them)


#21 BRG

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:52

I believe the Tyrrell name is owned by a company called Tyrrell Promotions as it was on the back of a Hotwheels Tyrrell P34 I brought recently.

But the Tyrrell team was acquired by BAR (whence Honda, Brawn and now Mercedes) so presumably there was a deal that the name could be retained by Tyrrell Promotions as BAR famously did not want it!

#22 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 15:51

It is interesting that so many folk seem to have registered companies relating to Ecurie Ecosse. I assume one is Hugh McCaig but the two in the Midlands may be related to RML perhaps? I wonder who the others are? Perhaps Graham Gauld can enlighten us? As regards copyright, I have a box or original EE stickers given to me by David Leslie many years ago whne he still had a garage in Carlisle. As they are not repros I can presumably still sell them?!

On to lost teams. Did not Allard re-arrear with a sport racer in the nineties but it was name only and no connection to the original team. BRM were supposed to have an electric hill climb car for last season but it never appeared.

#23 La Sarthe

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 18:09

Someone mentioned the Wolf team near the top of the thread.

The rights to the name are now owned by the Italian Avelon Formula sports car team that races in the SPEED series and also in the Italian prototype series.

For the Silverstone round of the former they re-christened their cars as Wolfs and gave them a suitably-retro paint job. One of the drivers was Alex Caffi having a bit of fun.

See what you think.

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#24 tyrrellp346wheels

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 18:14

Thanks for reminding us La Sarthe, the team was mentioned in autosport a few weeks ago, I believe they are planning to move into LMP2 IIRC.

#25 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 19:32

The rights to the name are now owned by the Italian Avelon Formula sports car team that races in the SPEED series and also in the Italian prototype series.

Really? Then are they linked with the Adris Grupa that releases a cigarette brand *) called Walter Wolf using identical logos and name?

*) Back to the future marketing?



#26 Michael Ferner

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 14:16

Not necessarily. Walter Wolf has been selling the brand "Walter Wolf Racing" for donkey years now. Remember, he had no sponsors when he was doing F1 back in the seventies, bur recouped the money by selling the brand name to various manufacturers all over the world. I'd guess the licenses involved cover only particular branches of business, so there's no interfering of customers. In a way, WW was ahead of his time...