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Your Top Seven Drivers of 2010 - part IV (final standings)


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Poll: Your Top Seven Drivers (Top Three Drivers in new teams) and Top Three Teams in 2010 (427 member(s) have cast votes)

Please choose a total of seven among the drivers in established teams. In brackets the positions each driver got in our first, second and third poll.

  1. Sebastian Vettel (4/5/7) (317 votes [12.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.07%

  2. Fernando Alonso (3/7/2) (304 votes [11.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.58%

  3. Mark Webber (9/4/3) (256 votes [9.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.75%

  4. Lewis Hamilton (1/2/3) (333 votes [12.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.68%

  5. Jenson Button (5/3/6) (199 votes [7.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.58%

  6. Felipe Massa (7/16/13) (29 votes [1.10%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.10%

  7. Nico Rosberg (6/6/5) (288 votes [10.97%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.97%

  8. Robert Kubica (2/1/1) (336 votes [12.80%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.80%

  9. Michael Schumacher (8/18/15) (47 votes [1.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.79%

  10. Rubens Barrichello (13/11/8) (89 votes [3.39%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.39%

  11. Adrian Sutil (10/8/10) (41 votes [1.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.56%

  12. Kamui Kobayashi (-/9/9) (179 votes [6.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.82%

  13. Vitaly Petrov (12/13/16) (41 votes [1.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.56%

  14. Nico Hlkenberg (18/19/14) (65 votes [2.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.48%

  15. Vitantonio Liuzzi (15/17/20) (10 votes [0.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.38%

  16. Sebastien Buemi (18/20/14) (9 votes [0.34%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.34%

  17. Pedro de la Rosa (-/11/-) (14 votes [0.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.53%

  18. Nick Heidfeld (-/-/-) (23 votes [0.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.88%

  19. Jaime Alguersuari (11/12/12) (46 votes [1.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.75%

Please choose a total of three among the drivers in new teams

  1. Heikki Kovalainen (16/10/11) (373 votes [31.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.96%

  2. Jarno Trulli (17/-/19) (203 votes [17.40%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.40%

  3. Karun Chandhok (14/15/16) (148 votes [12.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.68%

  4. Bruno Senna (-/20/-) (47 votes [4.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.03%

  5. Lucas di Grassi (-/-/-) (20 votes [1.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.71%

  6. Timo Glock (-/-/-) (251 votes [21.51%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.51%

  7. Sakon Yamamoto (-/-/-) (19 votes [1.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.63%

  8. Christian Klien (-/-/-) (106 votes [9.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.08%

Please choose your three favourite teams this year - in brackets the positions each team got in our first, second and third poll.

  1. RBR-Renault (-/4/4) (212 votes [17.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.64%

  2. McLaren-Mercedes (-/1/2) (229 votes [19.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.05%

  3. Ferrari (-/6/3) (157 votes [13.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.06%

  4. Mercedes GP (-/8/7) (84 votes [6.99%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.99%

  5. Renault (-/2/1) (164 votes [13.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.64%

  6. Williams-Cosworth (-/5/5) (84 votes [6.99%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.99%

  7. Force India-Mercedes (-/7/7) (34 votes [2.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.83%

  8. BMW Sauber-Ferrari (-/9/9) (56 votes [4.66%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.66%

  9. STR-Ferrari (-/12/12) (14 votes [1.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.16%

  10. Lotus-Cosworth (-/3/6) (113 votes [9.40%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.40%

  11. HRT-Cosworth (-/10/11) (26 votes [2.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.16%

  12. Virgin-Cosworth (-/11/10) (29 votes [2.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.41%

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#101 zawisza

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 22:03

I don´t see Frank Dernie´s view too far off the mark - what surprises me most is, that contrary to this poll, he does not see Robert Kubica even among the Top Five, which supports my view that Robert will still have to prove himself against a real top driver.
Nico Rosberg on the other hand has done just that - proved himself against one Michael Schumacher, so it does not surprise that Frank has Nico so high up, considering the respect that Michael still enjoys in the paddock...


Wasn't Frank Dernie Williams' consultant engineer in the time Rosberg started his career there in 2006? I gues his personal sentiments have nothing to do here? :smoking:
Don't get me wrong I think Robert and Nico were even matched this season. Allen: I’ve checked the data with various engineers and the Mercedes was faster on the whole /comparing to Renault/. Should we trust Allen or maybe he's Mark Hughes' brother-in-law? :p

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#102 korzeniow

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 22:05

Your basing the fact Kubica is better than Rosberg based on sheer statistics. That has never been a reliable way in comparing anything, giving the vast number of circumstances available.


Oh and given that Rosberg has two fastest laps to Kubica's one, I guess Rosberg is faster ;)


I didn't say Kubica is better than Rosberg. Yorkie said that Rosberg achieved in F1 more than Kubica. I simply explained that's not true

:wave: :wave:


#103 zawisza

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 22:07

Oh and given that Rosberg has two fastest laps to Kubica's one, I guess Rosberg is faster ;)


spot on :lol:

#104 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 00:18

1. Vettel
2. Alonso
3. Webber
4. Kubica
5. Hamilton
6. Rosberg
7. Button

#105 Yorkie

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:14

We are talking about Kubica's and Rosberg's achievements.



I didn't say Kubica is better than Rosberg. Yorkie said that Rosberg achieved in F1 more than Kubica. I simply explained that's not true

:wave: :wave:

I said that Rosberg had a bigger scalp than Kubica, then you started with the one win and one pole position like it was an outstanding achievement

#106 korzeniow

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 19:32

Joe Saward's top 5 of the season

And this year's Oscar goes to....


Robert Kubica! Again! :up:

To my mind, and I am sure that some will disagree with me, the man who who did the best job in terms of getting the most out of his car was Poland’s Robert Kubica, who raced for Renault. He finished eighth in the World Championship and did not win a single race, but he drove brilliantly, made fewer mistakes than all of his rivals, performed overtaking moves that others could not have achieved and showed that if ever there was a driver waiting for the right car to come along, here he is.



#107 rog

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 19:36

I agree, Rosberg was impressive. However, he still had a better than Kubica (if we look at the whole season). Also I haven't noticed Rosberg doing what Kubica did in Monaco, Spa and Suzuka.

Don't get me wrong. In my mind, Nico is a great driver and was very close to Robert in terms of performance, but he just lacks this spark that Kubica imo has and which allows him to do incredible things on track (his Monaco onboards can only be described as incredible, don't they?).



Kubica was Heidfeld level the previous year. In almost all ratings Kubica is overrated.

#108 alecc

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 19:39

Kubica was Heidfeld level the previous year. In almost all ratings Kubica is overrated.


Yep, only your personal rating is the right one, where nobody is over- od underrated. I must say, I have exactly the same syndrome :lol:

#109 undersquare

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 19:40

Kubica was Heidfeld level the previous year. In almost all ratings Kubica is overrated.


Well Kubi's mistakes pass unnoticed, don't they. Like Eau Rouge, Suzuka FP1 for example.

#110 korzeniow

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 19:46

Well Kubi's mistakes pass unnoticed, don't they. Like Eau Rouge, Suzuka FP1 for example.


So, I see you are unable to point out those "mistakes", if you are reffering to Suzuka FP1 :lol:

#111 Bonaventura

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 19:48

In almost all ratings Kubica is overrated.

it's easier to fullfill not so very high expectations
Kubica had no pressure and no competitive teammate
it's easier to shine from the background than in the spotlight

#112 alecc

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 20:18

it's easier to fullfill not so very high expectations
Kubica had no pressure and no competitive teammate
it's easier to shine from the background than in the spotlight


I wouldn't say that this is so simple, having a mid-field car (or a dog-car) can be very frustrating and demotivating, with a top car that is fighting for victories, it's simpier to get motivated.
However, I don't say that it is easier to shine from a top-car, I say only, that it isn't so simply.

Edited by alecc, 30 November 2010 - 20:18.


#113 undersquare

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 20:29

So, I see you are unable to point out those "mistakes", if you are reffering to Suzuka FP1 :lol:


A Kubica mistake that slipped under your radar??

At the hairpin.

#114 Bonaventura

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 20:31

I wouldn't say that this is so simple, having a mid-field car (or a dog-car) can be very frustrating and demotivating, with a top car that is fighting for victories, it's simpier to get motivated.
However, I don't say that it is easier to shine from a top-car, I say only, that it isn't so simply.

It's not easier for the driver to have a medicore or inferior car
but it's easier to satisfy the supporters/audience if nobody expects vicotorys or podiums and the driver can excel the expectations some times
this is one reason why Kubica gets very high ratings,
he's the classical underdog

#115 alecc

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 20:45

It's not easier for the driver to have a medicore or inferior car
but it's easier to satisfy the supporters/audience if nobody expects vicotorys or podiums and the driver can excel the expectations some times
this is one reason why Kubica gets very high ratings,
he's the classical underdog


Oh, this way, then yep, you're right.
In a top car everything bellow a win and pole is a 'meh' achievement, and everything bellow let say P4 is a disaster.
In mid-field car everything above P6-8 is a great achievement, and everything bellow P10 is "well, the car was slow"
:lol:

Edited by alecc, 30 November 2010 - 20:45.


#116 zawisza

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 23:49

Well Kubi's mistakes pass unnoticed, don't they. Like Eau Rouge, Suzuka FP1 for example.


:rotfl: You must be really desperate using a FP slight slide with no consequences as an example.

EDIT: I havent been too polite. I should have helped you. Spa pitlane incident!!! How could you miss it?! Kubica lost ...what? 3 points. OMG!

Edited by zawisza, 01 December 2010 - 00:03.


#117 undersquare

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 09:27

:rotfl: You must be really desperate using a FP slight slide with no consequences as an example.

EDIT: I havent been too polite. I should have helped you. Spa pitlane incident!!! How could you miss it?! Kubica lost ...what? 3 points. OMG!


Spa pitlane thank you :D . Though I can't remember if it was the lollipop man or Robert who goofed.

On Suzuka I wasn't slagging Kubi, it was just the contrast with Lewis's error and the fuss over it, that I was highlighting. It was a full off though, not just a slide.

Kubi does make errors, is my point. No more than anyone else, but they tend not to be noticed because of where he's running, and so a bit of a myth is being built up. Thus he gets the "error-free season" tag, which isn't really true.

#118 thuGG

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 09:44

Spa pitlane thank you :D . Though I can't remember if it was the lollipop man or Robert who goofed.

On Suzuka I wasn't slagging Kubi, it was just the contrast with Lewis's error and the fuss over it, that I was highlighting. It was a full off though, not just a slide.

Kubi does make errors, is my point. No more than anyone else, but they tend not to be noticed because of where he's running, and so a bit of a myth is being built up. Thus he gets the "error-free season" tag, which isn't really true.


Of course, nobody is perfect. Kubica makes mistakes, but compared to the mistakes of Hamilton, Alonso, Webber, Vettel this year, Robert's errors are practically non existent. He maybe lost 3 to 5 points because of his fault, and the biggest one was overshooting his box at Spa, wow. Now count the points lost from title contenders errors.

Edited by thuGG, 01 December 2010 - 09:46.


#119 tghik

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 09:49

Everybody makes mistakes. Kubica is not exception as he also is human. And I guarantee that he will make mistakes in the future. The difference however is how stupid, in what conditions, by how close driving to the limit, how often and how big the errors are (the points lost).

The difference that undersquare intentionally forgets to mention is mistakes made by Kubica were small compared to other leading drivers. And another thing he also forgets to mention is that the driver that is technically the most precise is Kubica, like being on the limit for the entire weekend in Monaco as many people reported watching him at the racetrack.

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#120 Yorkie

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 10:50

Of course, nobody is perfect. Kubica makes mistakes, but compared to the mistakes of Hamilton, Alonso, Webber, Vettel this year, Robert's errors are practically non existent. He maybe lost 3 to 5 points because of his fault, and the biggest one was overshooting his box at Spa, wow. Now count the points lost from title contenders errors.

Did he damage his car after contact with Schumi, in Canada i think?

#121 undersquare

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:01

Of course, nobody is perfect. Kubica makes mistakes, but compared to the mistakes of Hamilton, Alonso, Webber, Vettel this year, Robert's errors are practically non existent. He maybe lost 3 to 5 points because of his fault, and the biggest one was overshooting his box at Spa, wow. Now count the points lost from title contenders errors.


Well 'points lost' is a GREAT measure for Kubi :lol:

Since most of the time he's only got a few points to lose.

#122 thuGG

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:04

Did he damage his car after contact with Schumi, in Canada i think?


No.

#123 undersquare

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:05

Did he damage his car after contact with Schumi, in Canada i think?


Yep, good recall, not too different from Singapore for LH/MW. Or Monza for LH, perhaps.

#124 thuGG

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:09

Well 'points lost' is a GREAT measure for Kubi :lol:

Since most of the time he's only got a few points to lose.


This doesn't change the fact that Kubica made minor mistakes, where all the big guns made major mistakes.

#125 korzeniow

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:20

Yep, good recall, not too different from Singapore for LH/MW. Or Monza for LH, perhaps.


It's completely diffrent. Since Kubica didn't DNF :wave:

#126 undersquare

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:23

This doesn't change the fact that Kubica made minor mistakes, where all the big guns made major mistakes.


Well I just think the top guns' mistakes seemed worse because of what was at stake. In terms of the driving error itself, if all of Kubi's were given the same coverage I don't think there'd be much difference.

As we've seen already in the last few posts there was going wide at Eau Rouge, overshooting the pit, clashing with Schumi, going off at Suzuka. Most of us barely remember these so I'm sure there were one or two more as well.

Not to say he didn't drive well, especially at Oz, Monaco (with an error that cost a place I just remembered) and Abu. But I don't think he's especially error-free, in reality.

#127 korzeniow

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:42

Well I just think the top guns' mistakes seemed worse because of what was at stake. In terms of the driving error itself, if all of Kubi's were given the same coverage I don't think there'd be much difference.

As we've seen already in the last few posts there was going wide at Eau Rouge, overshooting the pit, clashing with Schumi, going off at Suzuka. Most of us barely remember these so I'm sure there were one or two more as well.

Not to say he didn't drive well, especially at Oz, Monaco (with an error that cost a place I just remembered) and Abu. But I don't think he's especially error-free, in reality.


LOL

You are arguing with facts! There is big diffrence! Kubica did only few mistakes contrary to other drivers, and those mistekes were minor. Kubica didn't DFN because of his mistake and didn't take anyone else off! Contrary to eg. Hamilton, Alonso, Webber, Vettel, Massa.....

Edited by korzeniow, 01 December 2010 - 11:45.


#128 undersquare

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:54

LOL

You are arguing with facts! There is big diffrence! Kubica did only few mistakes contrary to other drivers, and those mistekes were minor. Kubica didn't DFN because of his mistake and didn't take anyone else off! Contrary to eg. Hamilton, Alonso, Webber, Vettel, Massa.....


Nobody did MANY mistakes, among the top drivers.

Whether they resulted in a DNF depended a lot on luck, as always. Vettel ended Button's race at Spa, but kept going himself, while Barrichello ended his own race torpedoing Alonso but Alonso kept going.

Jense spun 360 at Korea but didn't touch anything, while Fernando at Spa hit the wall. And so on and so on. Lewis broke a toe link at Monza - unlucky - and Webber's tyre stayed inflated at Singapore - lucky.

In terms of driver skill, being fast while not making mistakes, there's not much in it.

#129 Yorkie

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 13:49

LOL

You are arguing with facts! There is big diffrence! Kubica did only few mistakes contrary to other drivers, and those mistekes were minor. Kubica didn't DFN because of his mistake and didn't take anyone else off! Contrary to eg. Hamilton, Alonso, Webber, Vettel, Massa.....

Everyone knows that Kubica is a top driver but saying he's been the best driver is very subjective, he's had no teammate to really test him and we know that Heidfeld was able to give him a run for his money.

Also lets not kid ourselves that Kubica was doing miracles in a dog of car, pay driver Petrov managed to get into Q3 five times and Kubica consistently outqualified Schumi. Rosberg had 3 podiums, 12 top 6 finshers and beat 7xWDC Schumi quite covincingly, against Kubica's 3 podiums and 9 top 6 finishers.

Yet i dont hear Rosberg is better than Alonso, Lewis or even Vettel, but Kubica can apparently lay claim to be the best driver of 2010.

#130 zawisza

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 16:16

Spa pitlane thank you :D . Though I can't remember if it was the lollipop man or Robert who goofed.

On Suzuka I wasn't slagging Kubi, it was just the contrast with Lewis's error and the fuss over it, that I was highlighting. It was a full off though, not just a slide.

Kubi does make errors, is my point. No more than anyone else, but they tend not to be noticed because of where he's running, and so a bit of a myth is being built up. Thus he gets the "error-free season" tag, which isn't really true.


Nor more? Wow!. I do appreciate. You know where limits are set. :lol:



#131 zawisza

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 16:27

Everyone knows that Kubica is a top driver but saying he's been the best driver is very subjective, he's had no teammate to really test him and we know that Heidfeld was able to give him a run for his money.

Also lets not kid ourselves that Kubica was doing miracles in a dog of car, pay driver Petrov managed to get into Q3 five times and Kubica consistently outqualified Schumi. Rosberg had 3 podiums, 12 top 6 finshers and beat 7xWDC Schumi quite covincingly, against Kubica's 3 podiums and 9 top 6 finishers.

Yet i dont hear Rosberg is better than Alonso, Lewis or even Vettel, but Kubica can apparently lay claim to be the best driver of 2010.


I agree. I don't think he was the best as I don't think there was a strong leader this season but IMO Kubica was among 5 or maybe 6 even matched drivers. Rosberg definately was there.

Edited by zawisza, 01 December 2010 - 16:33.


#132 alecc

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 16:31

I agree. I don't think he was the best as I don't think there was a strong leader this season but IMO Kubica was among 4-5 or maybe even 5-6 even matched drivers. Rosberg definately was there.


This :up:

And I'm happy that from season to season the discussion about Kubicas pace is getting less and less aggresive and biased :up:

#133 MrMonaco

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 16:51

Well 'points lost' is a GREAT measure for Kubi :lol:

Since most of the time he's only got a few points to lose.

Vettel lost more points in Spa than Kubica all season combined and he wasn't on the podium position in that moment of the race.

We have to remember what's the poll about - top 7 drivers not the best driver. If you think Kubica don't deserve to be in top seven than I don't know who deserve it.

#134 jjcale

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 18:12

I dont get it... why is it so hard to admit that RK did the best job this season. VP was rubbish but he was duly spanked - what more could you ask for. There is no reason to think RK did not get the most out of the car, he's a quick and committed guy.... watch the onboards. He does not leave time on the table. Then there is the consistency. The overtaking. The defending. The good strategic moves - They guy didnt have a bad race all season. And he gets and A+ in most categories that you would use to analyse a driver.

OK, he didnt have the pressure of the guys in the top cars otherwise it would be clear superiority.... but I think the other guys could have done as well if they were in RK's position but the pressure on them meant an error filled season... its not that he is better... just that he performed better.

Its very close at the top but my standings are

RK (just barely)
LH/FA/NR
HK/JB/RB
SV/MW/AS/KK/TG


#135 senna da silva

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 18:40

I dont get it... why is it so hard to admit that RK did the best job this season. VP was rubbish but he was duly spanked - what more could you ask for. There is no reason to think RK did not get the most out of the car, he's a quick and committed guy.... watch the onboards. He does not leave time on the table. Then there is the consistency. The overtaking. The defending. The good strategic moves - They guy didnt have a bad race all season. And he gets and A+ in most categories that you would use to analyse a driver.

OK, he didnt have the pressure of the guys in the top cars otherwise it would be clear superiority.... but I think the other guys could have done as well if they were in RK's position but the pressure on them meant an error filled season... its not that he is better... just that he performed better.

Its very close at the top but my standings are

RK (just barely)
LH/FA/NR
HK/JB/RB
SV/MW/AS/KK/TG


I don't get how Kubica can be rated so highly when the only real comparison he's faced was Heidfeld and was only his equal. Coincidentally Felipe Massa and Mark Webber were also Heidfeld's equal. I'm not saying Robert hasn't done a good job but frankly he's still an unknown quantity IMO. Who knows if he was really extracting the most out of that Renault? Even Petrov was qualifying in the top ten so the car couldn't be that bad. Just too many unknowns.

#136 Muppetmad

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 18:54

I don't get how Kubica can be rated so highly when the only real comparison he's faced was Heidfeld and was only his equal. Coincidentally Felipe Massa and Mark Webber were also Heidfeld's equal. I'm not saying Robert hasn't done a good job but frankly he's still an unknown quantity IMO. Who knows if he was really extracting the most out of that Renault? Even Petrov was qualifying in the top ten so the car couldn't be that bad. Just too many unknowns.


We really don't know anything to be quite honest - what's to say that the Hispania wasn't the best car and the drivers simply were terrible? Extreme example I know, but it can be applied to all the teams. We don't know how fast a car is, or how much impact a driver makes - that's why we use our intuition to form our own opinions.


#137 undersquare

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 19:00

I dont get it... why is it so hard to admit that RK did the best job this season.


I don't know why you think it's some kind of self-evident truth that people perversely refuse to recognise. He's made errors as we've established. Had some good races. Some races I can't remember him at all.

Top 7 obviously. Top? Very arguable, at best. We don't really know how good his car was, even.

#138 senna da silva

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 19:08

We really don't know anything to be quite honest - what's to say that the Hispania wasn't the best car and the drivers simply were terrible? Extreme example I know, but it can be applied to all the teams. We don't know how fast a car is, or how much impact a driver makes - that's why we use our intuition to form our own opinions.


We know the RBR was the best car. We know the Mac and Ferrari were good. Let me ask this based on your intuition, was the Renault better than the Mercedes at the end of the season? Based on your comments we should rate Rosberg as the best driver of 2010.

Edited by senna da silva, 01 December 2010 - 19:16.


#139 robefc

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 20:03

I dont get it... why is it so hard to admit that RK did the best job this season. VP was rubbish but he was duly spanked - what more could you ask for. There is no reason to think RK did not get the most out of the car, he's a quick and committed guy.... watch the onboards. He does not leave time on the table. Then there is the consistency. The overtaking. The defending. The good strategic moves - They guy didnt have a bad race all season. And he gets and A+ in most categories that you would use to analyse a driver.

OK, he didnt have the pressure of the guys in the top cars otherwise it would be clear superiority
.... but I think the other guys could have done as well if they were in RK's position but the pressure on them meant an error filled season... its not that he is better... just that he performed better.

Its very close at the top but my standings are

RK (just barely)
LH/FA/NR
HK/JB/RB
SV/MW/AS/KK/TG


I don't think you can say that simply because we have no way of knowing what alonso or hamilton say would have been capable of in that car. Button for example made practically no mistakes in the races (ignoring quali for now) but was consistently slower than lewis. Personally I doubt kubica has a very good error record beause he's not quite quick enough but we can't say that for sure.

Fair to say kubica's mistake record in 2008 was very impressive too mind.

I have no issues with people putting him anywhere from 1st to 4th but I think it highlights how impossible it is for anyone to have any confidence in their rating, we just don't know enough about the car's potential etc.

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#140 Bonaventura

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 21:12

I dont get it... why is it so hard to admit that RK did the best job this season. OK, he didnt have the pressure of the guys in the top cars otherwise it would be clear superiority.... but I think the other guys could have done as well if they were in RK's position but the pressure on them meant an error filled season... its not that he is better... just that he performed better.

Its very close at the top but my standings are

RK (just barely)
LH/FA/NR
HK/JB/RB
SV/MW/AS/KK/TG

The point is, we don't have any benchmark for RKs performances
did he really do the best job this season, was it the absolute optimum he got out of the car & the best performances all over the season?
Compared to Petrov, yes, but who is Petrov

It's difficult to rate Kubica
He was very good, but was he the best?
Would be nice to see Kubica with a competitive teammate in the title fight.

Edited by Bonaventura, 01 December 2010 - 21:13.


#141 barni

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 22:44

Everyone knows that Kubica is a top driver but saying he's been the best driver is very subjective, he's had no teammate to really test him and we know that Heidfeld was able to give him a run for his money.

Also lets not kid ourselves that Kubica was doing miracles in a dog of car, pay driver Petrov managed to get into Q3 five times and Kubica consistently outqualified Schumi. Rosberg had 3 podiums, 12 top 6 finshers and beat 7xWDC Schumi quite covincingly, against Kubica's 3 podiums and 9 top 6 finishers.

Yet i dont hear Rosberg is better than Alonso, Lewis or even Vettel, but Kubica can apparently lay claim to be the best driver of 2010.

you assume renault was at least on merc level, which is questionable.
some other guys claim it was probably one of the fastest car, but it`s impossible to judge because of petrov`s performance, while the speed of merc was obviously inferior because of performance of a 41 old champion.
i`m sure that merc was faster car than renault this year, so for me kubica was much better than rosberg and that`s it.


#142 ktsayshi

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 23:35

you assume renault was at least on merc level, which is questionable.
some other guys claim it was probably one of the fastest car, but it`s impossible to judge because of petrov`s performance, while the speed of merc was obviously inferior because of performance of a 41 old champion.
i`m sure that merc was faster car than renault this year, so for me kubica was much better than rosberg and that`s it.


Does "faster" equal "better"? For instance, we saw that the RB6 didn't have the top speed of the McLaren in the speed traps. Did that make it an inferior car?

#143 rog

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 23:37

you assume renault was at least on merc level, which is questionable.
some other guys claim it was probably one of the fastest car, but it`s impossible to judge because of petrov`s performance, while the speed of merc was obviously inferior because of performance of a 41 old champion.
i`m sure that merc was faster car than renault this year, so for me kubica was much better than rosberg and that`s it.



I'm sure Renault was equal over the whole season. First few races Mercedes with an advantage, later in the year Renault was on par or better in a few races (Montreal, Valencia, Spa etc.)

#144 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 04:32

1. Vettel
2. Alonso
3. Webber
4. Kubica
5. Hamilton
6. Rosberg
7. Button


Based on this new information from McLaren: http://www.f1fanatic...nd-fastest-car/ , that indeed the McLaren was the second fastest car on the grid I am revising my rating of the top seven drivers.

1. Vettel
2. Alonso
3. Webber
4. Kubica
5. Rosberg
6. Hamilton
7. Button

Hamilton now drops behind Rosberg. I had based my original list on the premise that Hamilton had put the third best car into fourth place. This changes as now he had put the second place car into fourth which demonstrates Hamilton as an underperforming driver given the equipment provided.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 02 December 2010 - 04:33.


#145 Bonaventura

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 08:54

Based on this new information from McLaren: http://www.f1fanatic...nd-fastest-car/ , that indeed the McLaren was the second fastest car on the grid I am revising my rating of the top seven drivers.

1. Vettel
2. Alonso
3. Webber
4. Kubica
5. Rosberg
6. Hamilton
7. Button

Hamilton now drops behind Rosberg. I had based my original list on the premise that Hamilton had put the third best car into fourth place. This changes as now he had put the second place car into fourth which demonstrates Hamilton as an underperforming driver given the equipment provided.

This is the vote of the ones who have not watched any races.

#146 aditya-now

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 08:56

So I guess the saying "Nothing succeeds like success" holds true.
I, however, presume if he missed the WDC (with no fault of his in the last race ) he would be down in 3rd or 4th place in most rankings.


In our Top Seven we have Vettel in 3rd, and it is true, if he had no won the WDC he would be further down, probably in 4th or 5th, behind Alonso. I doubt that Alonso would be higher up than 3rd, the fan base that Hamilton and Kubica have is just too strong.

Hamilton did not have a stellar season in 2010 - it is amazing how he is held in such high esteem. His best season so far still is 2007, which was immaculate, safe the last race, his second best season was 2008. I am curious for 2011 - to be a fast driver and spectacular overtaker is one thing, to be an overall great driver is another.


#147 aditya-now

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 09:05

Based on this new information from McLaren: http://www.f1fanatic...nd-fastest-car/ , that indeed the McLaren was the second fastest car on the grid I am revising my rating of the top seven drivers.

1. Vettel
2. Alonso
3. Webber
4. Kubica
5. Rosberg
6. Hamilton
7. Button

Hamilton now drops behind Rosberg. I had based my original list on the premise that Hamilton had put the third best car into fourth place. This changes as now he had put the second place car into fourth which demonstrates Hamilton as an underperforming driver given the equipment provided.


Thanks for the link, halifaxF1fan. It was my suspicion always that the McLaren was not that bad in 2010, especially in race pace.

What caught my eye though was the next paragraph:

Fernando Alonso buoyed by gap to Massa: “It’s probably the biggest gap that I have ever had to a team-mate and that makes me happy because of the results that I’ve had over the past years. My level of driving is better than ever and I hope I can keep it up next year.”

While I surely had this impression, that Alonso was driving better than ever before in the second half of 2010, and in fact as good as any driver in the history of F1, it really leaves question marks about Felipe Massa. In our poll Massa ranks only 15th, and I fear this is even a fair assessment of his capabilities at this point. The accident plus the psychological plus factual dominance of Alonso in the Scuderia are a deadly cocktail for Massa.

If Alonso keeps up this level of driving next year, we are going to see a splendid season, especially if Vettel and Hamilton are up to it again and if Renault and Mercedes provides decent cars.



#148 aditya-now

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 09:21

Wasn't Frank Dernie Williams' consultant engineer in the time Rosberg started his career there in 2006? I gues his personal sentiments have nothing to do here? :smoking:
Don't get me wrong I think Robert and Nico were even matched this season. Allen: I’ve checked the data with various engineers and the Mercedes was faster on the whole /comparing to Renault/. Should we trust Allen or maybe he's Mark Hughes' brother-in-law? :p


I would still rate Kubica overall above Rosberg, no question about it - but not in 2010. Rosberg had a fine fine year. Well, maybe he was flattered by the fact how he won the intra team battle against an all-time great like Schumacher.
In fact, both Rosberg and Kubica extremely good and definitely in the Top Five, with Webber and Button completing the Top Seven (objectively seen, my personal opinion is a bit different as stated above). This is also reflected in the standings of this poll, which has Kubica/Rosberg/Vettel/Alonso/Rosberg/Webber/Button ahead, all in all quite fair and true to what we have seen this year. Also Kobayashi in close 8th position is fairly representative.

Frank Dernie may be close to Rosberg, but that does not take away from the fact that he is not so wrong in stating how good Rosberg was in 2010. In my eyes he was, besides Kobayashi, the revelation of 2010.

Relative to Kubica it would be interesting to see, we have no direct comparisons. How good is the Renault, how good the Mercedes? How bad is Schumacher, how bad is Petrov? I would still assume Schumacher is much better than Petrov, thus, the Mercedes may not have been that much better than the Renault at all, if these two cars were not indeed evenly matched at all.

To have Rosberg in 2nd goes a little bit far, I agree (I would put him in fourth before Kubica, only behind Alonso/Vettel/Hamilton), and I was also surprised to see Webber up in 3rd in Dernie's rating, ahead of Alonso and Hamilton...

#149 undersquare

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 09:30

It was my suspicion always that the McLaren was not that bad in 2010, especially in race pace.


It may have been on a par with the Ferrari pace-wise, in Lewis'hands at least, but it wasn't reliable enough.

#150 jjcale

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 09:41

In our Top Seven we have Vettel in 3rd, and it is true, if he had no won the WDC he would be further down, probably in 4th or 5th, behind Alonso. I doubt that Alonso would be higher up than 3rd, the fan base that Hamilton and Kubica have is just too strong.

Hamilton did not have a stellar season in 2010 - it is amazing how he is held in such high esteem. His best season so far still is 2007, which was immaculate, safe the last race, his second best season was 2008. I am curious for 2011 - to be a fast driver and spectacular overtaker is one thing, to be an overall great driver is another.


The difference between 2007 and 2010 was 0 mechanicals in 07 versus 2 in '10. LH had 2 bad races of his own in both years but this time in the middle of the season rather than at the very end... there is no good reason to think LH was poorer in '10 than 07 particularly factoring in the relative strenght of his car in '10 versus 07. In fact there are good reasons to say otherwise, and I should not have to go into them on a board like this as anyone who pays close attention should be able to see the ways that he has improved since he has been a rookie - if they are honest.