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Your Top Seven Drivers of 2010 - part IV (final standings)


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Poll: Your Top Seven Drivers (Top Three Drivers in new teams) and Top Three Teams in 2010 (427 member(s) have cast votes)

Please choose a total of seven among the drivers in established teams. In brackets the positions each driver got in our first, second and third poll.

  1. Sebastian Vettel (4/5/7) (317 votes [12.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.07%

  2. Fernando Alonso (3/7/2) (304 votes [11.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.58%

  3. Mark Webber (9/4/3) (256 votes [9.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.75%

  4. Lewis Hamilton (1/2/3) (333 votes [12.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.68%

  5. Jenson Button (5/3/6) (199 votes [7.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.58%

  6. Felipe Massa (7/16/13) (29 votes [1.10%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.10%

  7. Nico Rosberg (6/6/5) (288 votes [10.97%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.97%

  8. Robert Kubica (2/1/1) (336 votes [12.80%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.80%

  9. Michael Schumacher (8/18/15) (47 votes [1.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.79%

  10. Rubens Barrichello (13/11/8) (89 votes [3.39%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.39%

  11. Adrian Sutil (10/8/10) (41 votes [1.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.56%

  12. Kamui Kobayashi (-/9/9) (179 votes [6.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.82%

  13. Vitaly Petrov (12/13/16) (41 votes [1.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.56%

  14. Nico Hülkenberg (18/19/14) (65 votes [2.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.48%

  15. Vitantonio Liuzzi (15/17/20) (10 votes [0.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.38%

  16. Sebastien Buemi (18/20/14) (9 votes [0.34%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.34%

  17. Pedro de la Rosa (-/11/-) (14 votes [0.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.53%

  18. Nick Heidfeld (-/-/-) (23 votes [0.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.88%

  19. Jaime Alguersuari (11/12/12) (46 votes [1.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.75%

Please choose a total of three among the drivers in new teams

  1. Heikki Kovalainen (16/10/11) (373 votes [31.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.96%

  2. Jarno Trulli (17/-/19) (203 votes [17.40%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.40%

  3. Karun Chandhok (14/15/16) (148 votes [12.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.68%

  4. Bruno Senna (-/20/-) (47 votes [4.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.03%

  5. Lucas di Grassi (-/-/-) (20 votes [1.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.71%

  6. Timo Glock (-/-/-) (251 votes [21.51%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.51%

  7. Sakon Yamamoto (-/-/-) (19 votes [1.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.63%

  8. Christian Klien (-/-/-) (106 votes [9.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.08%

Please choose your three favourite teams this year - in brackets the positions each team got in our first, second and third poll.

  1. RBR-Renault (-/4/4) (212 votes [17.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.64%

  2. McLaren-Mercedes (-/1/2) (229 votes [19.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.05%

  3. Ferrari (-/6/3) (157 votes [13.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.06%

  4. Mercedes GP (-/8/7) (84 votes [6.99%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.99%

  5. Renault (-/2/1) (164 votes [13.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.64%

  6. Williams-Cosworth (-/5/5) (84 votes [6.99%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.99%

  7. Force India-Mercedes (-/7/7) (34 votes [2.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.83%

  8. BMW Sauber-Ferrari (-/9/9) (56 votes [4.66%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.66%

  9. STR-Ferrari (-/12/12) (14 votes [1.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.16%

  10. Lotus-Cosworth (-/3/6) (113 votes [9.40%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.40%

  11. HRT-Cosworth (-/10/11) (26 votes [2.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.16%

  12. Virgin-Cosworth (-/11/10) (29 votes [2.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.41%

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#201 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 23:58

Everybody could see that the McLaren was extremely difficult to drive, especially after the introduction of the EBD
perhaps the McLaren was faster on some tracks with long straights, but the car was c**p in tight slow corners on bumpy tracks and at the end in the wet, too
What brings a faster car if the drivers can't keep it on the track?
So, if Lewis has underperformed, what did Button?
If Lewis could not extract the full potential of the car, who on earth could?


2007 Lewis for one.

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#202 Bonaventura

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 00:09

Come on now, Ferrari didn't finish second because they were basically a one driver team. If you were watching all the races (and I know you were!) you know this. The Mclaren data is very clear, over the season they had the second best car. They should know. And yes I rely partly on the car order when thinking about ranking the drivers as it is a factor, I don't see why this is laughable.As well Hamilton had benefitted from non-calls this season which helped his point total. This also takes away from his relative standing in my view. Weaving, passing the safety car, racing in the pits, free quali lap in Montreal etc.

Lewis is 2p behind Webber in the ranking (Webber 242 / Lewis 240)
if you count Japan the 2nd gearboxfailure cost Lewis at least 2 points (What about the 5 pos grid penalty because of the 1st gearboxfailure at Suzuka?)
Barcelona 18p
Hungary 12p
this are points Lewis lost becaue of mechanical failures, wich were not his fault

If Lewis has "underperformed",than McLaren, has underperformed , too

What about the strategy errors at Australia & China
Or, Webber pushed him out at Australia wich cost Lewis some points, too

Edited by Bonaventura, 03 December 2010 - 00:14.


#203 Lights

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 00:09

Come on now, Ferrari didn't finish second because they were basically a one driver team. If you were watching all the races (and I know you were!) you know this. The Mclaren data is very clear, over the season they had the second best car. They should know. And yes I rely partly on the car order when thinking about ranking the drivers as it is a factor, I don't see why this is laughable.

It's laughable because your logic is flawed to begin with.

The data that McLaren used for their statement also included the laptimes from the slower driver from the 'one driver team' as you name it. It doesn't conclude anything, it only gives us facts that we already know, like how Massa was underperforming this year and how it cost Ferrari the chance to actually fight with McLaren for that 2nd place in the championship. The reason McLaren finished 2nd in the championship by quite a fair margin to Ferrari, is exactly the same reason why from the available data, McLaren was a tenth, or whatever it was, faster than Ferrari. It doesn't evaluate the drivers performance however, that's simply up to you, and it's quite obvious what you're going for.

#204 Bonaventura

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 00:17

2007 Lewis for one.

I don't think, so
Lewis has improved over the years
Look at his team mate , Jenson Button a very experienced driver, who drove difficult cars before , he called the MP4-25 this year sometimes as undriveable.

I don't think Alonso would have been able to drive better in the this years McLaren, than Lewis did.

#205 aditya-now

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 00:26

2007 Lewis for one.


That is a valid answer, exactly my view as well. I think Lewis in 2007 was hungrier, more disciplined and also (still) more managed and manageable (especially his races up to Monaco were really impressive to me - in Monaco his other side started to show). Now: too much Pussycat Dolls, Puff Daddy and who knows what. He is in danger of losing his edge. In Alonso I felt that raw and undivided will again in the second half of 2010.

Now a totally different matter, to bring the thread back to its topics: what about the teams?

To me it was

Red Bull - for bringing in a new paradigm into F1
Ferrari - for being Ferrari, and for representing the eternal and ancient paradigm of F1
Lotus - great to have British racing green back, great the team is so relaxed (not the least thanks to Tony Fernandes), and great performances by Kovalainen and the pitbull terrier engineer (forgot his name!)

Which teams do if for you guys? For what reasons?



#206 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 01:29

It's laughable because your logic is flawed to begin with.

The data that McLaren used for their statement also included the laptimes from the slower driver from the 'one driver team' as you name it. It doesn't conclude anything, it only gives us facts that we already know, like how Massa was underperforming this year and how it cost Ferrari the chance to actually fight with McLaren for that 2nd place in the championship. The reason McLaren finished 2nd in the championship by quite a fair margin to Ferrari, is exactly the same reason why from the available data, McLaren was a tenth, or whatever it was, faster than Ferrari. It doesn't evaluate the drivers performance however, that's simply up to you, and it's quite obvious what you're going for.


I am sure there is quite a bit more analysis than just compiling lap times. For example laps stuck behind slower drivers (where Massa spent most of the season) would be of no value to an engineer trying to figure out where his car sat in the performance/development war that was being waged throught the season. Give these guys some credit, they are not going to fool themselves by watering down their competitors stats with irrelevant data. If the McLaren engineers are saying their car is faster than the Ferrari they are probably bang on.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 03 December 2010 - 03:51.


#207 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 01:54

That is a valid answer, exactly my view as well. I think Lewis in 2007 was hungrier, more disciplined and also (still) more managed and manageable (especially his races up to Monaco were really impressive to me - in Monaco his other side started to show). Now: too much Pussycat Dolls, Puff Daddy and who knows what. He is in danger of losing his edge. In Alonso I felt that raw and undivided will again in the second half of 2010.

Now a totally different matter, to bring the thread back to its topics: what about the teams?

To me it was

Red Bull - for bringing in a new paradigm into F1
Ferrari - for being Ferrari, and for representing the eternal and ancient paradigm of F1
Lotus - great to have British racing green back, great the team is so relaxed (not the least thanks to Tony Fernandes), and great performances by Kovalainen and the pitbull terrier engineer (forgot his name!)

Which teams do if for you guys? For what reasons?


I think you are very astute in your assessment of 2007 Lewis vs the Lewis's that have followed. He peaked very early and since then has not been able to sustain his edge. And who didn't like him in those first six races, then the games began.

As far as the teams go , this year it is the Redbull team that impressed me. Mainly from the car design side, I don't think much of Horner etc on the team management side.

Red Bull were the class of the field due to Newey's brilliance and always a step ahead of the competition in engineering and development.

Ferrari is to be given credit for their tenacious fightback in the second half of the season and Renault would be my third pick just for exceeding expectations throughout the season.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 04 December 2010 - 15:23.


#208 Yorkie

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 01:56

He is countering your point about DNFs ...

If you remove Lewis DNFs , then remove Seb DNFs too ...

If Seb did not have DNFs .. Whether Lewis DNFs or not will not even matter! Seb was so far ahead.

BTW according to the new info - McLaren wasnt as bad as their drivers made it out to be :)

They were comparing the McLaren with the Ferrari

#209 robefc

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 02:18

That is a valid answer, exactly my view as well. I think Lewis in 2007 was hungrier, more disciplined and also (still) more managed and manageable (especially his races up to Monaco were really impressive to me - in Monaco his other side started to show). Now: too much Pussycat Dolls, Puff Daddy and who knows what. He is in danger of losing his edge. In Alonso I felt that raw and undivided will again in the second half of 2010.


I think you missed the season prior to monza...best Lewis has ever driven imo.

#210 Bonaventura

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 08:48

That is a valid answer, exactly my view as well. I think Lewis in 2007 was hungrier, more disciplined and also (still) more managed and manageable (especially his races up to Monaco were really impressive to me - in Monaco his other side started to show). Now: too much Pussycat Dolls, Puff Daddy and who knows what. He is in danger of losing his edge. In Alonso I felt that raw and undivided will again in the second half of 2010.

You forget about the cars
you can't compare the 2007 McLaren with the 2010 one
what about the races until Monza this season, absolutely flawless
This manageable thing is nonsense, how would you judge it
Lewis is managed by McLaren how could a driver be more "manageable" for his team?
What he does in his spare time should not concern you
Funny is there where some comments some weeks ago, Lewis needs a more personal entourage, is to much McLaren, travels alone and is too much with his team
his GF he hasn't seen for more than 6 weeks until the last GPs

#211 marcoferrari

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:23

I think you missed the season prior to monza...best Lewis has ever driven imo.


I agree with that... Hami's only weakness is concentration in last races, when the finale is slowly coming... He is very strong in overtaking, has a great quali and race pace and an excellent consistency in performances... Mental strenth/dealing with pressure is his only weakness compared to Alonso... If he can better in that area, he will be definitely the most complete driver in current F1...

#212 Kelateboy

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:50

Everybody could see that the McLaren was extremely difficult to drive, especially after the introduction of the EBD
perhaps the McLaren was faster on some tracks with long straights, but the car was c**p in tight slow corners on bumpy tracks and at the end in the wet, too

McLaren was fast along the long straight and that is a better characteristic than being fast on slow/fast corners. At least McLaren could overtake slower cars with their top speed. The last few years have proven that most and easiest overtaking maneuvers took place along the main/long straights.



#213 aditya-now

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:09

Well, it's a good new reason to bash Lewis


Please guys, stay on track, we still want to get 500 votes for the poll.

Not meant to bash Lewis at all, just Button is definitely a bit softer on the material. For me there is very little to chose between Alonso and Hamilton, and then comes Vettel, Rosberg et al. Glad we have Lewis in the sport, what else would we have had to talk about for the last four years?

#214 flyer121

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:26

What do you expect with the fastest car? If Seb didn't win this year's world championship minus his car failing him then all things considered that would've been quite a poor season from him.


What new info is that? Surely not Tim Goss's defense of what was clearly not the best car.


Dude, there is no way Lewis is ever gonna beat Seb if they drove their respective cars as they did in 2010.

Yeah RBR was the fastest car , but the main reason Seb had any troubles was hardly to do with Lewis or Alonso , it was Webber.
If Webber wasn't competitive as he was in the mid season, Seb would have had no trouble at all even with his DNFs.
Same can be said about Lewis who may have been further behind if Webber was his teammate.

And I was responding to the poster who brought up Lewis DNFs, and claimed that only removing Lewis DNF will of course give a skewed picture.
BTW - most of Lewis DNFs were his own fault and only cost him podiums while at least three Seb DNFs were mechanical and cost him wins.


About relative car strengths , McLaren were definitely better than Ferrari in the first half of the season and were only second to Ferrari in Q (as confirmed by the team themselves and as some suspected already). Anyway if McLaren was built for top speed and overtaking (with better race speed) , that Qualy disadvantage shoudlnt have been a problem for their drivers but instead Alonso overhauled both Maccas with ease and on two occasions overtook Lewis by forcing him into mistakes.

All in all not a nice showing by the Macca drivers this season and that's why they are so low on expert rankings. Fan rankings will always differ though.

Edited by flyer121, 03 December 2010 - 11:40.


#215 jjcale

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:32

That is a valid answer, exactly my view as well. I think Lewis in 2007 was hungrier, more disciplined and also (still) more managed and manageable (especially his races up to Monaco were really impressive to me - in Monaco his other side started to show). Now: too much Pussycat Dolls, Puff Daddy and who knows what. He is in danger of losing his edge. In Alonso I felt that raw and undivided will again in the second half of 2010.


Flippin' 'eck... for a guy with aditya in his name you sure do write some scary sh*t sometimes...

This if F1 dude, not some kind of Nietzsche inspired zero-sum darwinian contest ...

#216 aditya-now

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:38

Flippin' 'eck... for a guy with aditya in his name you sure do write some scary sh*t sometimes...

This if F1 dude, not some kind of Nietzsche inspired zero-sum darwinian contest ...


:lol:

:up:

To stay on topic, jjcale, what are your three top teams in 2010?




#217 jjcale

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:42

:lol:

:up:

To stay on topic, jjcale, what are your three top teams in 2010?


I'll have to think about that... to make in interesting I might try to see how much each team spent versus what they achived.... otherwise its just boring Redbull, Macca and Ferrari.

#218 aditya-now

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:53

I'll have to think about that... to make in interesting I might try to see how much each team spent versus what they achived.... otherwise its just boring Redbull, Macca and Ferrari.


Now you make it a thesis (showing your depth of thought and analysis), comparing in a scientific way what spent/what achieved...;)

Was just asking your three favourite teams this year, to me it is Red Bull, Ferrari and Lotus (although McLaren should be in there as well, thinking of how well they got the team Hamilton/Button to work, which is an example that has been rarely successfully set for decades).

The way the poll is going, people were voting in the team question also, but very few cared to state their team preferences, whilst the whole focus is on "which driver". Tells you something about hero worship and how we (at least the majority of us) are in it for the ancient hero theme, starting from the gladiators in Rome. Who cared about what horse carts they drove? :lol:

#219 jjcale

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:57

@aditya-now: well if you put it that way (which is different from the way you asked us to look at the drivers - i.e. best not favourite) then that's easy: Macca then Lotus then Merc. Based on Macca is my favourite team, Lotus is the most charismatic team (for many past and present reasons) and Merc since I have friends who work for the Brackley based outfit and I understand and sympathise with their struggles since mid 09.

But I still think a more scientific approach might be useful... perhaps that is for another thread.

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#220 robefc

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 11:59

BTW - most of Lewis DNFs were his own fault and only cost him podiums while at least three Seb DNFs were mechanical and cost him wins.


actually 1 was clearly his fault, 1 was a racing incident where he was partially to blame and 2 were mechanicals that cost him 30+ points...easily enough to put him above the 2 drivers above him who suffered very few mechanical issues.

Yeah RBR was the fastest car , but the main reason Seb had any troubles was hardly to do with Lewis or Alonso , it was Webber.
If Webber wasn't competitive as he was in the mid season, Seb would have had no trouble at all even with his DNFs.
Same can be said about Lewis who may have been further behind if Webber was his teammate.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say, vettel being challenged more by webber than Hamilton was by button means what? Are you trying to say webber is better than button?

About relative car strengths , McLaren were definitely better than Ferrari in the first half of the season and were only second to Ferrari in Q (as confirmed by the team themselves and as some suspected already). Anyway if McLaren was built for top speed and overtaking (with better race speed) , that Qualy disadvantage shoudlnt have been a problem for their drivers but instead Alonso overhauled both Maccas with ease and on two occasions overtook Lewis by forcing him into mistakes.

All in all not a nice showing by the Macca drivers this season and that's why they are so low on expert rankings. Fan rankings will always differ though.


You write as if the maccas had a speed advantage at every race which is if course nonsense. Even if it wasn't a quali pace advantage would be better than a slight race pace advantage.

Anyway please point me to the races where the macca was quicker than the ferrari but Hamilton finished behind alonso.
I'll start you off -

Australia possibly, only finished behind thanks to team strategy blunder and MW's self confessed error.
Barcelona - mechanical
Japan possibly, only finished behind thanks to grid penalty

If you know of anymore that weren't hamilton's fault let me know.  ;)

#221 aditya-now

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 12:06

@aditya-now: well if you put it that way (which is different from the way you asked us to look at the drivers - i.e. best not favourite) then that's easy: Macca then Lotus then Merc. Based on Macca is my favourite team, Lotus is the most charismatic team (for many past and present reasons) and Merc since I have friends who work for the Brackley based outfit and I understand and sympathise with their struggles since mid 09.

But I still think a more scientific approach might be useful... perhaps that is for another thread.


Yeah, it´s true, there is a difference in the wording: "your Top Seven Drivers" but "your three favourite teams".

F1 Racing used to do such team success/cost analysis´every year (I remember how Toyota always outspent themselves with little to show for), but I stopped my F1 Racing subscription over a year ago now.

Lotus for sure is very charismatic, and I am happy if Fernandes will go on keeping the Lotus name.

If you have friends in Brackley, I would be more than interested to know what´s going on, I just posted a question in the Michael Schumacher thread as some things definitely do not seem to add up and I can imagine that they must have some serious struggles and pressures since mid `09. Definitely something in the spirit of the team has changed, Brawn GP in the first half of 2009 was a revelation, what a spirit, how sympathetic!


#222 Lights

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 12:12

I am sure there is quite a bit more analysis than just compiling lap times. For example laps stuck behind slower drivers (where Massa spent most of the season) would be of no value to an engineer trying to figure out where his car sat in the performance/development war that was being waged throught the season. Give these guys some credit, they are not going to fool themselves by watering down their competitors stats with irrelevant data. If the McLaren engineers are saying their car is faster than the Ferrari they are probably bang on.

My point is still the same, data from more than 1 car is used, and in 1 Ferrari car there was a driver seriously underperforming, even when he wasn't stuck behind other drivers. It does count and it can easily make the difference in this analysis.

#223 robefc

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 12:18

My point is still the same, data from more than 1 car is used, and in 1 Ferrari car there was a driver seriously underperforming, even when he wasn't stuck behind other drivers. It does count and it can easily make the difference in this analysis.


I'd love to know how they crunch the numbers.

One thing a lot of people have forgotten is that it doesn't mean Ferrari were not quicker on more tracks than macca, which was the consensus on this board and is more important than the average lap time difference.

They may also have concluded that macca was quicker than Ferrari overall in say brazil when macca were clearly struggling on the soft in the first stint.

It's very simplistic simply to say it's the second quickest car based on what goss said although it's very convenient for many.

#224 flyer121

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 14:23

actually 1 was clearly his fault, 1 was a racing incident where he was partially to blame and 2 were mechanicals that cost him 30+ points...easily enough to put him above the 2 drivers above him who suffered very few mechanical issues.

Agree.
Yes only two were mechanical and both times Lewis wasnt on for a win.
The other two were partly or fully his own doing.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, vettel being challenged more by webber than Hamilton was by button means what? Are you trying to say webber is better than button?

I am just saying that Lewis would have had similar problems as Seb if his teammate was as fast as Webber. Yes, Webber was better than Button this season.


You write as if the maccas had a speed advantage at every race which is if course nonsense. Even if it wasn't a quali pace advantage would be better than a slight race pace advantage.

Anyway please point me to the races where the macca was quicker than the ferrari but Hamilton finished behind alonso.
I'll start you off -

Australia possibly, only finished behind thanks to team strategy blunder and MW's self confessed error.
Barcelona - mechanical
Japan possibly, only finished behind thanks to grid penalty

If you know of anymore that weren't hamilton's fault let me know.;)


The thing is - you can not pick and choose races and then try to retrofit the argument.

The whole problem with fixing a car's potential to how the drivers drove defeats the whole purpose. Of course if Lewis or Button drives the car slow , it will appear slow. Doesnt mean the car is slow !!

Same ridiculous argument is used to justify RB6 absolute pace too, because it grabbed 14 poles , it must be the fastest !! But thats no argument really ! What about Webber and Vettel who are excellent qualifiers?

So we only have teams word for it who have enough data to know the car's true potential.


Then count in the mistakes - Monza was a track where the car would have been faster as shown by Button but Lewis screwed up. All of those things matter too.
Even in Korea and Brazil, Lewis was ahead of the Ferrari before losing out.

The fact remains that the MP4 wasnt that bad (at least in race pace) as was insinuated by the drivers every so often.

Edited by flyer121, 03 December 2010 - 14:24.


#225 Lights

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 14:39

I am just saying that Lewis would have had similar problems as Seb if his teammate was as fast as Webber. Yes, Webber was better than Button this season.

And I am just saying that Lewis wouldn't have similar problems as Vettel if his teammate was as fast as Webber. Because Webber wasn't better than Button this season.

The thing is - you can not pick and choose races and then try to retrofit the argument.

Actually, he can. That you don't like the results of it is something else.

The whole problem with fixing a car's potential to how the drivers drove defeats the whole purpose. Of course if Lewis or Button drives the car slow , it will appear slow. Doesnt mean the car is slow !!

Same ridiculous argument is used to justify RB6 absolute pace too, because it grabbed 14 poles , it must be the fastest !! But thats no argument really ! What about Webber and Vettel who are excellent qualifiers?

So we only have teams word for it who have enough data to know the car's true potential.

Right, you're funny. That's the most remarkable analysis ever.

Then count in the mistakes - Monza was a track where the car would have been faster as shown by Button but Lewis screwed up. All of those things matter too.
Even in Korea and Brazil, Lewis was ahead of the Ferrari before losing out.

The fact remains that the MP4 wasnt that bad (at least in race pace) as was insinuated by the drivers every so often.

All Button showed in Monza was that the Ferrari was the quickest car there.


#226 flyer121

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 14:50

And I am just saying that Lewis wouldn't have similar problems as Vettel if his teammate was as fast as Webber. Because Webber wasn't better than Button this season.

Prove it then. At best its your opinion.
My take is that Webber would out qualify Hamilton more than Button did and given how difficult overtaking equal cars has been (even in Lewis' hands) Lewis would have found it harder to shake Webber in points.

Right, you're funny. That's the most remarkable analysis ever.


Okay, I am funny. But is that your best counter argument ? :)



#227 Lights

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 14:59

Prove it then. At best its your opinion.
My take is that Webber would out qualify Hamilton more than Button did and given how difficult overtaking equal cars has been (even in Lewis' hands) Lewis would have found it harder to shake Webber in points.

Okay, I am funny. But is that your best counter argument ? :)

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. How cunning of you to ask me to prove stuff, while it's not like you do any attempt whatsoever to back up your own claims. That's why I'm not really considering getting into any discussion with you.

#228 Lokt

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 15:01

Agree.
Yes only two were mechanical and both times Lewis wasnt on for a win.
The other two were partly or fully his own doing.


I am just saying that Lewis would have had similar problems as Seb if his teammate was as fast as Webber. Yes, Webber was better than Button this season.




The thing is - you can not pick and choose races and then try to retrofit the argument.

The whole problem with fixing a car's potential to how the drivers drove defeats the whole purpose. Of course if Lewis or Button drives the car slow , it will appear slow. Doesnt mean the car is slow !!

Same ridiculous argument is used to justify RB6 absolute pace too, because it grabbed 14 poles , it must be the fastest !! But thats no argument really ! What about Webber and Vettel who are excellent qualifiers?

So we only have teams word for it who have enough data to know the car's true potential.


Then count in the mistakes - Monza was a track where the car would have been faster as shown by Button but Lewis screwed up. All of those things matter too.
Even in Korea and Brazil, Lewis was ahead of the Ferrari before losing out.

The fact remains that the MP4 wasnt that bad (at least in race pace) as was insinuated by the drivers every so often.


Just have to see I get this right... So youre arguing that the RB6 wasn´t the fastest car this year and it had 14 poles because of it´s awsome drivers. And Ferrari and Mclarens drivers underperformed which made their respective cars performence look weaker than it really was.

Thats just desperate.... ;)

#229 aditya-now

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 15:03

Hey you guys, you are highjacking the thread!!!  ;)

Would you be so kind to provide your Top Seven Drivers if you have not done so yet, and also kindly your Favourite Three Teams.

From all I can gather Macca must be the favourite team of you guys, but still be so kind to name your #2 and #3 as well!

Thanks! :up:

#230 flyer121

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 15:20

Just have to see I get this right... So youre arguing that the RB6 wasn´t the fastest car this year and it had 14 poles because of it´s awsome drivers. And Ferrari and Mclarens drivers underperformed which made their respective cars performence look weaker than it really was.

Thats just desperate....;)



I m not saying anything like the highlighted part ... but its possible and you know it too :)

I am just pointing to the logical flaw in the argument that a car's true potential is judged by its finishing position mixed randomly with one's pre made assumptions about driver ability based on personal liking / subjectivity / media hype at worst OR results from different regs / equipment / era at best.

Edited by flyer121, 03 December 2010 - 15:24.


#231 Bonaventura

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 16:57

Prove it then. At best its your opinion.
My take is that Webber would out qualify Hamilton more than Button did and given how difficult overtaking equal cars has been (even in Lewis' hands) Lewis would have found it harder to shake Webber in points.



Okay, I am funny. But is that your best counter argument ? :)

If you look at the stats the races and the qualys
Lewis has outqualifyed Webber 3 times depite having a much slower car.
He overtook Webber 4x on track at races and is only 2p behind Webber despite 2 more DNFs than Webber
I think both in the same car, Webber would have been further behind than Button this year.

Edited by Bonaventura, 03 December 2010 - 16:57.


#232 Yorkie

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 18:38

Dude, there is no way Lewis is ever gonna beat Seb if they drove their respective cars as they did in 2010.

Yeah RBR was the fastest car , but the main reason Seb had any troubles was hardly to do with Lewis or Alonso , it was Webber.
If Webber wasn't competitive as he was in the mid season, Seb would have had no trouble at all even with his DNFs.
Same can be said about Lewis who may have been further behind if Webber was his teammate.

And I was responding to the poster who brought up Lewis DNFs, and claimed that only removing Lewis DNF will of course give a skewed picture.
BTW - most of Lewis DNFs were his own fault and only cost him podiums while at least three Seb DNFs were mechanical and cost him wins.


About relative car strengths , McLaren were definitely better than Ferrari in the first half of the season and were only second to Ferrari in Q (as confirmed by the team themselves and as some suspected already). Anyway if McLaren was built for top speed and overtaking (with better race speed) , that Qualy disadvantage shoudlnt have been a problem for their drivers but instead Alonso overhauled both Maccas with ease and on two occasions overtook Lewis by forcing him into mistakes.

All in all not a nice showing by the Macca drivers this season and that's why they are so low on expert rankings. Fan rankings will always differ though.

The comparison was being made as too what was the second fastest car, the fact a McLaren engineer said the McLaren was 1 tenth quicker than the Ferrari was then used as a bat to beat Lewis over the head with. Lewis lost more points to mechanical DNF's than mistakes made by himself, points which would have made Lewis the WDC, the fact that Vettel lost even more points to Lewis due to mechanical DNF's has nothing to do with the Lewis underperforming arguement whatsoever, everyone knows the Red Bull was by far the fastest car, only extreme fanboys would suggest that it was the drivers that made the cars so fast.

#233 Craven Morehead

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 08:56

Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Webber, Button, Kubica, Rosberg

Redbull, Ferrari, McLaren


#234 DavidJoeF1

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 10:56

Clearly this is a very Briitish-biased poll. With usual favorites, Hamilton and Chandok as well as McLaren being prominent.

This poll is no better than that of the team principals, very politically biased. I don't get why Chandok is so popular with the Brits.

#235 DavidJoeF1

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 10:59

I'd say the only drivers worthy of being rated above all are Vettel and Alonso. The F1 dream team. The quickest driver in the world with the most complete.

#236 aditya-now

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:13

Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Webber, Button, Kubica, Rosberg

Redbull, Ferrari, McLaren


Thanks, Craven, that is a post in the spirit of the thread!


#237 aditya-now

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:15

Clearly this is a very Briitish-biased poll. With usual favorites, Hamilton and Chandok as well as McLaren being prominent.

This poll is no better than that of the team principals, very politically biased. I don't get why Chandok is so popular with the Brits.


I think it is part of the human psyche to be biased. I notice the same tendency like you.

BTW, who are your Top Seven Drivers, which are your Three Favourite Teams?


#238 Lokt

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:54

Clearly this is a very Briitish-biased poll. With usual favorites, Hamilton and Chandok as well as McLaren being prominent.

This poll is no better than that of the team principals, very politically biased. I don't get why Chandok is so popular with the Brits.



I'd say the only drivers worthy of being rated above all are Vettel and Alonso. The F1 dream team. The quickest driver in the world with the most complete.


Ohhhhh the irony...... :rolleyes:

#239 TURU

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 12:52

Ohhhhh the irony...... :rolleyes:


Exactly. :rotfl:

However, I doubt he is aware of what he's just done.

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#240 aditya-now

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 13:12

Exactly. :rotfl:

However, I doubt he is aware of what he's just done.


Is "he" German then or is "he" a Spaniard?

I don't see any such close historical connections between Germany and Spain as between England and India, so I don't know what "he" has just done.

Come to think of it, TURU, who are your Top Seven Drivers in 2010 and who are your Three Favourite Teams in 2010? Thanks for answering :up:


#241 Lokt

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 13:23

Well my top drivers in no special order: Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Button, Kubica, Rosberg, and Webber.
Top teams: Red Bull, McLaren, and Lotus.

#242 aditya-now

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 13:26

Well my top drivers in no special order: Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Button, Kubica, Rosberg, and Webber.
Top teams: Red Bull, McLaren, and Lotus.


Thanks, Lokt! :up:

We are pretty close with our vote.

#243 TURU

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 14:03

Is "he" German then or is "he" a Spaniard?

I don't see any such close historical connections between Germany and Spain as between England and India, so I don't know what "he" has just done.

Come to think of it, TURU, who are your Top Seven Drivers in 2010 and who are your Three Favourite Teams in 2010? Thanks for answering :up:


He is biased. Like everyone.

Here you are:

My Top Seven Drivers in 2010:

1. Lewis Hamilton - yes he had a few bad moments, but overall was fantastic. (the fact that most of his great moments were in the first half of the season doesn't help him in such polls). Clearly the best season of Lewis Hamilton in F1.

2. Robert Kubica - for consistently squeezing everything from his not-so-top car, for being the most consistent from them all, for making the least mistakes and for some spectacular drives such as Monaco or Suzuka. However, he didn't have a pressure of fighting for the title and had Petrov as a teammate so I can't and won't put him on the top.

3. Nico Rosberg - for pretty much the same what Kubica, minus spectacular drives - he didn't have any.

4. Sebastian Vettel - for winning the title after a great comeback. However looking at his car, he should have been crowned a lot earlier (even if we discount his unlucky mechanical failures).

5. Fernando Alonso - for impressive second part of the season. He was pretty much flawless from Monza to the finish line in Abu Dhabi. It was Fernando The Master. In the first half of the season though (all the way up to Spa), he was Fernando Lost-In-The-Mist.

6. Mark Webber - for having the best season of his career in every aspect. Great for him as a driver, great for him as a person. But something was missing. Looking at his car, he should have done better.

7. Jenson Button - for staying close to Lewis (in points), while being considerably slower than him. Great consistency and few mistakes.


Three Favourite Teams in 2010:

1. Red Bull - for having the fastest car and winning both titles.

2. McLaren/Ferrari - I couldn't decide on this, but at the end of the day, in my biased opinion McLaren was better (as a team). Ferrari made too many dumb mistakes, Abu Dhabi being the best example of these.

3. Renault - for exceeding all pre-season expectations.

Edited by TURU, 04 December 2010 - 14:06.


#244 aditya-now

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 15:31

He is biased. Like everyone.


We all are biased, so true.

Thanks a lot for your Top Seven / Favourite Three, very well written. It provides joy to read it, as everyone sees different aspects and has different reasons. :up:


#245 aditya-now

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:23

PRELIMINARY STANDINGS (388 votes counted)



TOP SEVEN DRIVERS IN ESTABLISHED TEAMS

1. Robert Kubica (2/1/1) 310 votes 12,91%

2. Lewis Hamilton (1/2/3) 305 votes 12,70%

3. Sebastian Vettel (4/5/7) 292 votes 12,16%

4. Fernando Alonso (3/7/2) 279 votes 11,62%

5. Nico Rosberg (6/6/5) 267 votes 11,12%

6. Mark Webber (9/4/3) 235 votes 9,78%

7. Jenson Button (5/3/6) 179 votes 7,45%

8. Kamui Kobayashi (-/9/9) 165 votes 6,87%

9. Rubens Barrichello (13/11/8) 79 votes 3,29%

10. Nico HĂĽlkenberg (18/19/14) 60 votes 2,50%

11. Jaime Alguersuari (11/12/12) 43 votes 1,79%

12= Michael Schumacher (8/18/15) 40 votes 1,67%
12= Vitaly Petrov (12/13/16) 40 votes 1,67%

14. Adrian Sutil (10/8/10) 37 votes 1,54%

15. Felipe Massa (7/16/13) 26 votes 1,08%

16. Nick Heidfeld (-/-/-) 18 votes 0,75%

17. Pedro de la Rosa (-/11/-) 11 votes 0,46%

18= Vitantonio Liuzzi (15/17/20) 8 votes 0,33%
18= Sebastien Buemi (18/20/14) 8 votes 0,33%



TOP THREE DRIVERS IN NEW TEAMS

1. Heikki Kovalainen (16/10/11) 340 votes 32,05%

2. Timo Glock (-/-/-) 233 votes 21,96%

3. Jarno Trulli (17/-/19) 187 votes 17,62%

4. Karun Chandok (14/15/16) 133 votes 12,54%

5. Christian Klien (-/-/-) 95 votes 8,95%

6. Bruno Senna (-/20/-) 42 votes 3,96%

7. Lucas di Grassi (-/-/-) 16 votes 1,51%

8. Sakon Yamamoto (-/-/-) 15 votes 1,41%



THREE FAVOURITE TEAMS

1. McLaren-Mercedes (-/1/2) 209 votes 19,05%

2. RBR-Renault (-/4/4) 192 votes 17,50%

3. Renault (-/2/1) 148 votes 13,49%

4. Ferrari (-/6/3) 145 votes 13,22%

5. Lotus-Cosworth (-/3/6) 105 votes 9,57%

6. Williams-Cosworth (-/5/5) 77 votes 7,02%

7. Mercedes GP (-/8/7) 73 votes 6,65%

8. BMW-Sauber-Ferrari (-/9/9) 55 votes 5,01%

9. Force India-Mercedes (/7/7) 32 votes 2,92%

10. Virgin-Cosworth (-/11/10) 26 votes 2,37%

11. HRT-Cosworth (-/10/11) 22 votes 2,01%

12. STR-Ferrari (-/12/12) 13 votes 1,19%



Some points to make: while the Top Seven are, even in this constellation, somewhat fair and square, (although the real balance of powers may be just in reversed order from 4th to 1st) I am amazed how close Koba got to Jense by the end of the year, only 0,58% separating the two!!! :drunk:

Another noteworthy fact: who would have thought that Schumacher in his comeback season would be voted to be as good as a Russian rookie! :eek:

Well done, Rubens, well done, Hulk! :up:

Nice comeback for Heidfeld, even if short. He still would earn more justifiedly a place in the field than a number of his colleagues here. Whatever happened to Massa post Hungaring 2009 and post Hockenheim 2010, our BB voters have given the adequate answer. Somewhat painful for a Ferrari pilot...

In the Top Three among the new team drivers the Top Three are justifiedly Kova, Glock and Trulli, although Trulli had a lot of bad luck this year. From P4 on the whole thing seems pretty much like a sympathy vote, though. Doesn't make sense to me where Bruno Senna ended up.

Among the teams we have, with the exception of Red Bull, all the classic F1 teams in the Top Seven. And, who knows, maybe Red Bull Racing marks the beginning of a neo-classic period in F1. Nice to see Peter Sauber up next, he is one of a kind in the shark basin that is the F1 paddock... What I simply cannot understand is the lack of sympathies for the Scuderia from Faenza, which used to be one of the most beloved in the paddock. While success makes you seemingly beautiful in the case of RBR, the lack of success makes you seemingly ugly in the case of STR.

Thanks for voting to everyone, it's been great you took your time to fill in all these positions! We will try to keep this going till the end of the year, maybe we will still be able to make 500 votes.

#246 korzeniow

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 08:42

Kubica regadred as the best 3rd time in a row :cool:

#247 thuGG

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 08:43

No, he is regarded as Top 7 driver by most of the voters.
If someone made a poll for a top driver, I'm sure HAM/VET/ALO would win.

Edited by thuGG, 06 December 2010 - 08:43.


#248 robefc

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 09:35

Kubica regadred as the best 3rd time in a row :cool:


I wonder whether kubica benefits from having a strong fan base but not as many 'haters' as vettel, alonso and hamilton.

I find it difficult to understand how those 4 aren't level pegging because I find it difficult to understand how anyone could put them outside the top 7 drivers.

Either bias is coming into play or some people have a depth of knowledge re: the relative performance of the different cars and how drivers have performed in them in each race that allows them to understand that, for example, 7 drivers performed better than hamilton this year.

#249 robefc

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 09:37

Some points to make: while the Top Seven are, even in this constellation, somewhat fair and square, (although the real balance of powers may be just in reversed order from 4th to 1st) I am amazed how close Koba got to Jense by the end of the year, only 0,58% separating the two!!! :drunk:

Another noteworthy fact: who would have thought that Schumacher in his comeback season would be voted to be as good as a Russian rookie! :eek:

Well done, Rubens, well done, Hulk! :up:

Nice comeback for Heidfeld, even if short. He still would earn more justifiedly a place in the field than a number of his colleagues here. Whatever happened to Massa post Hungaring 2009 and post Hockenheim 2010, our BB voters have given the adequate answer. Somewhat painful for a Ferrari pilot...

In the Top Three among the new team drivers the Top Three are justifiedly Kova, Glock and Trulli, although Trulli had a lot of bad luck this year. From P4 on the whole thing seems pretty much like a sympathy vote, though. Doesn't make sense to me where Bruno Senna ended up.


I love the fact you've created a poll and then comment on it as if there is a 'correct' list you are comparing it to.

#250 Sarhan

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 10:39

I wonder whether kubica benefits from having a strong fan base but not as many 'haters' as vettel, alonso and hamilton.

I find it difficult to understand how those 4 aren't level pegging because I find it difficult to understand how anyone could put them outside the top 7 drivers.

Either bias is coming into play or some people have a depth of knowledge re: the relative performance of the different cars and how drivers have performed in them in each race that allows them to understand that, for example, 7 drivers performed better than hamilton this year.


It must be the haters that put the top drivers outside the seven. Looks like Kubica has less haters than others, however they seem to be very vocal on this BB :)
Seems to me the results of this poll are a measure of the bias here, rather than what it's title says.