2001 replies to this topic

[armchair expert]

Let's not dwell on the past! ; )

First words go to Christian Horner: Horner backs Webber for 2011 title bid

So now Red Bull have what they want; the youngest world champion & homegrown product, will it still be game on between Vettel and Webber?

Will Webber be forced to play #2?? Or does he have another honest shot as Horner says?

Funny thing, I've always thought Webber fits the Red Bull 'extreme sports' image a lot more than Vettel. Sure he's older, but isn't he still in their prime target audience?? Whatever.

Anyway, looking forward to a year where the team learns from their silly mistakes and the drivers fully realise their car's potential.

[flyer121]

Who will come out on top ? Only Pirelli know the answer

For me the question is - if this thread will surpass 2010 scorecard thread in post count ... I sure hope not !:)

Edited by flyer121, 26 November 2010 - 12:13.

[krapmeister]

Couldn't we have waited just a little longer before we started on MW vs SV 2011?

I mean, WhiteBlue isn't even over his gloating from 2010 yet...

[unoc]

Don't tell him.. he can have that thread... we'll keep this one for sane thought.

Who do you think the tyres will suit more?

I think webber might be slightly better. Mostly because I believe Vettel is slightly harder on the tyres, quicker on the thorttle and hence will tear through quicker degrading tyres much quicker than webber, while due to the nature of the Bridgestone tyres, it was equalled out.

Your thoughts?

[armchair expert]

Ok, I kicked this off because I wanted to look ahead, leave all the whatifs and other BS to the 2010 thread.

As far as tyres are concerned, if Seb can get them up to temperature quicker in qualifying, he will have Mark nailed again. If he can't, then Webbo has a real chance.

[unoc]

So you don't think the tyre degradation will effect one more than the other?

[FPV GTHO]

I think Seb might have more of an advantage next year. The cars are losing alot of rear downforce and the front Pirellis are supposed to be stronger than the front Bridgestones, which should suit him more with his style compared to Webber.

[flyer121]

We only have the very first reports of more tyre wear on Pirellis... I suspect that they will fix that before they start full scale production.

Also - how the other changes like rear wing staller affect drivring style .. will not be known until we see them race each other in Bahrain so it will be tricky to predict anything!

Edited by flyer121, 26 November 2010 - 17:29.

[sosidge]

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/88502

Prost: 'Calmer' Vettel will win more

Alain Prost believes that Sebastian Vettel has the potential to equal his tally of four world championships as German will benefit from a 'calmer' approach now that he has clinched his first title...

Edited by sosidge, 26 November 2010 - 18:17.

[jawad]

I didnt believe in Mark Webber being a really good driver before this season but he has proved me wrong this season and he was brilliant in Monaco, Spain, Silverstone and Turkey (Before Vettel crashed into him and I'm a Vettel fan) and took a good win in Hungary But he made the crucial mistake in Korea and that DNF cost him the WDC.That was 2010.
I really believe now that he can challenge for WDC in 2011 again and if RBR provides another competitive car there is no doubt that Webber will be in contention again and it will be as close as this year with Vettel Webber Alonso and Hamilton all fighting for WDC.

[Bunchies]

I think Seb might have more of an advantage next year. The cars are losing alot of rear downforce and the front Pirellis are supposed to be stronger than the front Bridgestones, which should suit him more with his style compared to Webber.

This. Seb was a monster while qualifying with the wider front bridgestones of 2009. I think that the narrower tires of 2010 slightly hindered his qualifying. If the pirelli balance is to tend more towards oversteer as before, whether it is from increased front grip or decreased rear, then I believe that seb will outqualify webber.

[fastlegs]

As far as tyres are concerned, if Seb can get them up to temperature quicker in qualifying, he will have Mark nailed again. If he can't, then Webbo has a real chance.

I'd say that's a fair assessment.

I would also add that Mark has to get off the start line a lot better next year.

His starts were very good in the first half of the 2010 season, however, in the second half they were terrible.

[orndorf]

So many new things to adapt to next year,that will probably be the greatest challenge for both drivers.

[WhiteBlue]

Until the cars are running in February it will all be speculation. By past performance one would guess that Seb will beat Mark again. But in F1 much can change with the cars and different technologies. My money is on Seb for 2011.

[jawad]

No doubt Vettel has edge after outqualifying and outscoring Webber 2nd year in a row but next year is a great chance for Webber.He has done everything right this season except winning the WDC.

Winning WDC is the only thing left to prove the world and next year being his last year in Formula 1 will motivate him to go out with a bang.Whether or not he will win WDC will depend on the car and his handling the new Pirelli Tyres and it will be fascinating to see who makes the better use of all these vaariables but one thing is for sure that it it will be a lot closer than this year and more than 3 teams will win Races!

I dont see Button and Massa winning WDC in coming years but it can still be a 6 way fight for WDC!

[slideways]

I think if they have the car under then Vettel will run away with it next year because of his qualifying. If they are in the pack or fighting closely with other teams Webber's race craft will help him a lot.

@jawad I think Webber still has to prove he can beat Vettel. If you believe the team's claims about Vettel's chassis for Spain/Monaco I think it has been since Germany 2009 that Webber beat Vettel to a win on pace!

[Callahan]

Until the cars are running in February it will all be speculation. By past performance one would guess that Seb will beat Mark again. But in F1 much can change with the cars and different technologies. My money is on Seb for 2011.

That's a shock

[mymemoryfails]

Until the cars are running in February it will all be speculation. By past performance one would guess that Seb will beat Mark again. But in F1 much can change with the cars and different technologies. My money is on Seb for 2011.

Bloody Hell

mymemoryfails

[Vhatever]

Oh come one. If vettel didn't have horrible luck mechanically the WDC would not have been even close.

I only see vettel improving next year as a driver. And webber? I can't see him improving, though there is all likelyhood of him taking a step backwards.

[FPV GTHO]

Things point Vettel's way to increase the gap to Webber - hes still young, still learning, able to adapt better. Webber's a funny one though. Some things that would sink a driver, he thrives on.

What if Vettel does get faster, but Webbers still only a tenth behind him?

As for racecraft, even if theyre clearly at the front again next year i think the tyres which look like they wont last on single stops unless your name is Jenson Button will ensure at least tyre conservation will once again be a driving skill. May not mean much when it comes to passing other cars or working through traffic, but it'll mean theres alot more than just managing engine maps to go from lights to flag.

[unoc]

New question then.... vettel has nearly run out of engines both years ar RBR now, and has experienced mechnical difficulties both years as well. Will his 'bad luck' continue?

[harrows]

Webber's had his chance. Game over, son - time to settle for #2...

[Wheels23]

Too early and tough to call. Webber is a fighter and still has a lot of speed and Seb well he is blisteringly fast.

I'll reserve any judgement until FP1 at Bahrain.

[SK99]

Vettel I think whatever he says publicly has learnt a hell of a lot about himself over the first 2 thirds of the 2010 season.

Also I think his winning of a title will calm a bit of the desperation which IMO was at the root cause of a lot of his performance in the pack over the last few years. Perhaps the car was not the best in the pack which compounded it as some speculate, but IMO when he found himself back there it was a bit like what Sir Stirling said in an article the other day where he thinks to himself 'how have I ended up here' and instead of focusing and analysing situations so to take an opportunity when it comes, he gets frustrated and loses the plot more the longer he is in the pack. Now the title might temper a bit of that and he will have a different frame of mind which will lead to better performance.

Webber's raw abilities I have always rated and I believe he has developed over the last few years and some of the drives he has produced Hamilton and Alonso would have struggled to match. I do not agree with the thought that a driver of his age cannot improve, and so I think it's certainly possible he can now still further going into next year.

His great problem IMO through his career has been consistency of application, and whilst he has addressed it do a great degree, it was still a bit of a problem last year at the end - but that was more down to the pressure cooker of such a ferocious title fight in various ways - IMO nothing can prepare you for such a situation of having the good chance to succeed with the equipment you are in yet being up against top quality drivers whilst also dealing with all the other aspects of an F1 title fight - and he was also dealing with the inter team politics to some degree at least.

Going into this year he now has more experience of all of that and can address the parts that affected performance.

So as for who will win between them I don't know, but it will be very close again as IMO they are both very good adaptors to new characteristics, which of course the regulations changes will provide.

Edited by SK99, 27 November 2010 - 14:22.

[LoudHoward]

I expect they'll both get better, probably by about even amounts, so Seb will still be superior with Mark keeping him on his toes most weekends.

[Henrytheeigth]

I expect they'll both get better, probably by about even amounts, so Seb will still be superior with Mark keeping him on his toes most weekends.

So I guess by that that Mark is to Seb., what Roger is to Mark, aye?

[DarthRonzo]

Th 2011 season has started.

Vettel experienced the new 2011 Pirelli draft tires, while Webber didn't.

[krapmeister]

Not sure about that - its been widely written that Seb doesn't mind a loose car more so than Mark.

[WhiteBlue]

Source with full opinion
When I was asked why Sebastian Vettel won the championship this year I had a simple answer: Speed. He's had plenty of bad luck and made a few silly mistakes, but there is no doubt in my mind that he is the fastest driver in Formula One at the moment. I think he's got huge reserves of natural talent and when you combine that with a very good car you have a formidable combination. I can see parallels between Vettel's career and Jimmy Clark's. When you meet Vettel you come away thinking he's got a lot more to him than just being a driver. I've met him away from racing and he handles himself well and has a very good sense of humour. I think his only weakness is his impetuosity, but he is learning to control it and he can soon turn it into a strength. We've also seen signs of maturity for one so young and I think he handled his dispute with team-mate Mark Webber very well. Vettel is much younger and could have been rattled by some of the comments pointed in his direction, but he dealt with it very well and continued to impress on track.

I think Mark's going to find a tougher team-mate in Vettel next year and that could be rather depressing for him. He's put a lot into this season and improved a lot, but to still get beaten by Vettel, who looks so effortless, will be hard to cope with for a driver. Add to that his outspoken belief that Vettel is more emotionally supported at Red Bull, and he's in a very tricky situation. It may well be the case that Vettel is more popular - after all he is younger and a product of Red Bull's driver programme - but it's very difficult for Mark to prove it, and it's something that he'll just have to accept next year.

Newey is one of F1's hottest properties and I think if you were picking a driver and designer combination to deliver the fastest car on the track, you would pick Vettel and Newey. I think the pair of them can take a second championship next year.

Not much more comment needed. It sums it up well.

[klyster]

^ It's not all white and blue though as the Red Bull has flattered both drivers all year long.

I personally don't think he's the fastest driver in F1. He sure looks like it when sitting in the fastest car though, but there have been a few times when even the fastest car didn't help.

He's one of the fastest drivers in F1, but not the fastest IMO.

[Black Widow]

Not much more comment needed. It sums it up well.

The epitome of misquoting.

All I have to say is....

YAWN....

[LukeM]

after reading WhiteBlues last post now I know hes 100% a troll

[krapmeister]

after reading WhiteBlues last post now I know hes 100% a troll

He sure is a bad winner...

[FPV GTHO]

I dont think theres anything wrong in saying Vettel is the fastest driver on the grid.

That doesnt make him the most complete. IMO Alonso and Hamilton are ahead there, and that will only come to Vettel through experience.

As for the tyres, what we've got so far to base opinions on is still only a change in size for basically the same set of tyres. Comparing the difference in balance between 2009 and 2010 Bridgestones to that of the 2010 Bridgestones and 2011 Pirelli's may still see the same trend albeit reversed, but the Pirelli's looking like they'll be a faster wearing tyre as well as other factors unique to the new tyres could throw up other curve balls.

[DILLIGAF]

He sure is a bad winner...

+1

Maybe hasn't heard of the term "Humble in victory"

Fortunately Seb knows what it means.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 28 November 2010 - 12:58.

[WhiteBlue]

The epitome of misquoting. All I have to say is....

after reading WhiteBlues last post now I know hes 100% a troll

He sure is a bad winner...

+1 Maybe hasn't heard of the term "Humble in victory" Fortunately Seb knows what it means.

You guys are pushing mightily with your personal vendetta. You obviously know nothing about quoting. There is a big difference between selective quoting and misquoting. Selective quotes focus on the relevant parts and provide the link to the original text for the interested public. Misquoting is changing the text or adding text. I leave it to to the interested public to make a judgement who is honest and who is slandering.

Meanwhile Alan Prost also backs Vettel for three or more titles:

Source
Q: Can Formula One world champion Sebastian Vettel match or better your own record?
AP:I think so. He was quite exceptional. And now he's got a title he's going to see things differently and he's going to be a bit more quiet sometimes. In different races maybe he'll get some more points. So I think he's going to be even stronger now.

Edited by WhiteBlue, 28 November 2010 - 18:13.

[H2H]

You guys are pushing mightily with your personal vendetta. You obviously know nothing about quoting. There is a big difference between selective quoting and misquoting. Selective quotes focus on the relevant parts and provide the link to the original text for the interested public. Misquoting is changing the text or adding text. I leave it to to the interested public to make a judgement who is honest and who is slandering.

Meanwhile Alan Prost also backs Vettel for three or more titles:

Personally I do not like the way you sometimes seem to enjoy rubbing a POV into the open wounds of other members. Still it is just fair to say that you didn't misquote Sterling Moss and Alain Prost.

We will see how the new year will turn out for Seb. Not just lately we have read a lot of pretty impressive things on his behalf from a lot of very respected persons, but who knows how they will see the things in six months?

H2H

[Black Widow]

You obviously know nothing about quoting.

It is not my job to teach you something you should have learned in school but to make such a stupid assumption leads me to respond in this manner.....

YAWN....

[WhiteBlue]

Personally I do not like the way you sometimes seem to enjoy rubbing a POV into the open wounds of other members.

Perhaps it looks that way, but that's not the way I see it. When I have a disagreement with polite and sensible people they usually have very little reason to complain, but I will consider your comment.

Still it is just fair to say that you didn't misquote Sterling Moss and Alain Prost.

Thanks for a competent verdict regarding the little disagreement about proper quoting. Good to see some people are aware how it should be done properly. I often see abuse of the quoting function by uneducated users. They falsify statements and top that with provocations like. "Here I've put that right for you". I hate that and will never consciously misquote someone. This goes for celebrities and users equally.

We will see how the new year will turn out for Seb. Not just lately we have read a lot of pretty impressive things on his behalf from a lot of very respected persons, but who knows how they will see the things in six months.

It is natural that champions of the past come out and praise Vettel at the time he won his debut WCC. I thought it correct to record their voices as I also feel that Seb was hugely impressive this season. I'm sure such laudations and predictions of the future were equally issued about Hamilton and Button. In my view there is nothing wrong with the fans picking that up and being proud of it. A bit higher up in this thread I also shared your view that once we have the new cars, the situation could be very different from now. Even the fastest drivers in F1 find it difficult to shine if their cars aren't equal to their talent. Seb and Mark can be hit by such bad luck as Alonso was in 2008 and 2009.

[sanjiro]

Come on BLue.

They made this thread to get away from the likes of you and me.
Just let it go.

This is for people talking about what MAY happen in 2011 and later...what is happening.

Not for people who want to endlessly go over details and responses to 2010.


all, you will not see me here again. sorry for the intrusion

[WhiteBlue]

..selected comments by Sir Stirling Moss ...

Not much more comment needed. It sums it up well.

The epitome of misquoting.....

You obviously know nothing about quoting. There is a big difference between selective quoting and misquoting. Selective quotes focus on the relevant parts and provide the link to the original text for the interested public. Misquoting is changing the text or adding text. I leave it to to the interested public to make a judgement who is honest and who is slandering.

.. It is just fair to say that you didn't misquote Sterling Moss and Alain Prost....

It is not my job to teach you something you should have learned in school but to make such a stupid assumption leads me to respond in this manner.....

@ Black Widow, please accept that you are the person who has a misconception about proper quoting, as user H2H pointed out. I may have come down a bit hard on you by saying you know nothing. I regret that and apologize for the crass tone. I suggest we sort this out in a respectful way and refrain from remarks about stupidity and alike.

[Black Widow]

@ Black Widow, please accept that you are the person who has a misconception about proper quoting, as user H2H pointed out. I may have come down a bit hard on you by saying you know nothing. I regret that and apologize for the crass tone. I suggest we sort this out in a respectful way and refrain from remarks about stupidity and alike.

Again, WB, you misconstrue what has been said.

A "stupid assumption" is just that, a "stupid assumption" and has no reference to the intelligence of the individual making such assumption. To imply otherwise is totally incorrect.

As for the rest of your post, I am not going to go into the rules of fallacious argument but it does lead me into saying that this is a pointless discussion.

[WhiteBlue]

I neither misquoted Sir Stirling Moss nor did I misconstrue what was posted in this thread. I simply quoted our argument verbatim. I tell you what would impress me. You could take that false accusation of misquotation back and agree to have a more constructive and respectful discussion style. I would prefer it that way.

Your decision!

[Kelateboy]

No doubt Vettel has edge after outqualifying and outscoring Webber 2nd year in a row but next year is a great chance for Webber.He has done everything right this season except winning the WDC.

AND that is a big letdown to any F1 driver. We will see how tough Mark is mentally for 2011 because I believe he will be at a further disadvantage because RBR would probably favor Vettel early on since he is the reigning Champion. They will continue to favor him as the season progresses because by that time, he would have gotten a healthy lead over Webber in the WDC standing.

That is just my opinion.... Feel free to disagree!

[Callahan]

You guys are pushing mightily with your personal vendetta. You obviously know nothing about quoting. There is a big difference between selective quoting and misquoting. Selective quotes focus on the relevant parts and provide the link to the original text for the interested public. Misquoting is changing the text or adding text. I leave it to to the interested public to make a judgement who is honest and who is slandering.

Meanwhile Alan Prost also backs Vettel for three or more titles:

Who the hell is Alan Prost.

Edited by Callahan, 29 November 2010 - 09:38.

[Wheels23]

I think since Vettel has won a title, I think RBR will at least even out the stakes a little not towards Mark but away from Vettel.

I think it will be even but it is depending on how they feel on the new tires.

[flyer121]

I think since Vettel has won a title, I think RBR will at least even out the stakes a little not towards Mark but away from Vettel.

I think it will be even but it is depending on how they feel on the new tires.

Yep .. Horner has already suggested that he is backing Webber for the 2011 title.

And by generally welcoming him even after the bitter remarks, I can see the emotional angle shifts towards Webber a bit already.

Edited by flyer121, 29 November 2010 - 15:17.

[WhiteBlue]

Here are the match opening odds.



Vettel is favorite to beat Webber by a 71% chance. I will update the picture during the season.

[destiny]

AND that is a big letdown to any F1 driver. We will see how tough Mark is mentally for 2011 because I believe he will be at a further disadvantage because RBR would probably favor Vettel early on since he is the reigning Champion. They will continue to favor him as the season progresses because by that time, he would have gotten a healthy lead over Webber in the WDC standing.

That is just my opinion.... Feel free to disagree!

Perceptions within the team about its two drivers matter a lot.

Mark has done himself no favour with the team management by going to the media about his grievances about equality this year(this may work in the short run but is counter productive in the long run) as i feel that there is nothing called equal driver status.Every one in the team from the top favours a driver in his heart.

Even if Mark a equally good driver as vettel,this perception problem would push the team management towards Vettel when important calls need to be made about the car and the races in 2011 and mark would be the loser.

This is just my opinion

[sanjiro]

Perceptions within the team about its two drivers matter a lot.

Mark has done himself no favour with the team management by going to the media about his grievances about equality this year(this may work in the short run but is counter productive in the long run) as i feel that there is nothing called equal driver status.Every one in the team from the top favours a driver in his heart.

Even if Mark a equally good driver as vettel,this perception problem would push the team management towards Vettel when important calls need to be made about the car and the races in 2011 and mark would be the loser.

This is just my opinion

Do you think MW spoke out about NOTHING.

MW already felt he had lost the support of the team after Turkey.
Keeping quiet about it would have not made the team go...awwww Mark we moved against you but now feel it was a bit harsh so will support you now.

MW had lost the support of RBR management before 2009 season even started.
(Marko talking **** about MW. CH and Marko talking about SV as if MW was not even in the team, MW told to change his driving style to that used by SV as it was faster)

That may or may not have manifest itself in ways that effected MW, but he definitely felt it did, hence the media storms this year.

As for race calls in 2011, honestly I dont care as will not be supporting MW in 2011 but they were already going against MW in 2010 starting with the Oz GP so expect that trend to continue in 2011