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A silly place to run a race


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#101 alansart

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 14:50

Street circuits can be difficult at the best of times. But when it rains...........Yesterday in Australia :eek:



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#102 Allan Lupton

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 15:09

Street circuits can be difficult at the best of times. But when it rains...........Yesterday in Australia :eek:

Not much of an advertisement for the racing drivers' competance is it? Not as if rain never happens in NSW after all.

#103 Stephen W

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 09:11

Street circuits can be difficult at the best of times. But when it rains...........Yesterday in Australia :eek:



Not much of an advertisement for the racing drivers' competance is it? Not as if rain never happens in NSW after all.


I agree Allan, a total lack of imagination displayed. BTW nothing wrong with the track even in the wet just a load of drongos!

:wave:

#104 wenoopy

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 10:44

The original Avus layout looks rather bizarre- two parallel straights about five miles long separated by a six feet strip of grass and then brick-surfaced banked turning loops at each end. Rosemeyer did a lap at an average speed of 172 mph! Imagine two of those silver arrows passing each other with a closing speed of 480 mph! :drunk:


I don't believe your Avus track dimension figures are quite correct. The original 1920's track was 20 kms so straights would be about 6 miles each. The tighter South curve was banked at only 5.71 deg and original North was 4.93 deg. The 43 deg. North curve was built after the 1936 Berlin Olympic Games, original North Curve having been demolished due to Stadium construction etc. Width of original track was given as 8 metres with 8 metre grass strip between. (not 6 feet) However, even in 1937, I believe it was realised that 171 mph laps were maybe a bit too fast.


#105 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 22:08

I agree Allan, a total lack of imagination displayed. BTW nothing wrong with the track even in the wet just a load of drongos!

:wave:

Just another braindead street circuit, a worthy recipient for this thread. Yet there is a proper racetrack not many kilometres away sitting still. That is the V8 Thupercar circus. Lets race on million dollar temporary circuits that cost the earth to assemble and dismantle every year, that are narrow bumpy and dangerous. That destroys 2/3 of the competitors cars n the name of entertainment. it is NOT motorracing. Demo Derbys are in the same mental capacity only demos are smarter as they are no done on million dolar facilitys in half million dollar cars.
And after all that most of those drivers really need there bacsides kicking until their noses bleed as A They should have pulled in for wets B Some of them crashed well after the initial 3 cars hit the wall to which there is no excuse and should have been excluded from the results at least. Lowndes in particular, hitting Courtney was totally unesecary, would have nothing to do with taking out a championship contender.

#106 elansprint72

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 22:37

I don't believe your Avus track dimension figures are quite correct. The original 1920's track was 20 kms so straights would be about 6 miles each. The tighter South curve was banked at only 5.71 deg and original North was 4.93 deg. The 43 deg. North curve was built after the 1936 Berlin Olympic Games, original North Curve having been demolished due to Stadium construction etc. Width of original track was given as 8 metres with 8 metre grass strip between. (not 6 feet) However, even in 1937, I believe it was realised that 171 mph laps were maybe a bit too fast.


Not my data; I merely regurgitated what I read in Autodrome. The lost race circuits of Europe. By SS Collins and Gavin D Ireland.

An excellent book (so I thought until now). Maybe I should head off to mainland Europe with a clinometer, theodolite and laser measure? :rolleyes:

btw, look at the film, your info on the width of the grass is wrong (as is "mine", probably) and no-one mentioned the trees!

#107 wenoopy

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:24

Not my data; I merely regurgitated what I read in Autodrome. The lost race circuits of Europe. By SS Collins and Gavin D Ireland.

An excellent book (so I thought until now). Maybe I should head off to mainland Europe with a clinometer, theodolite and laser measure? :rolleyes:

btw, look at the film, your info on the width of the grass is wrong (as is "mine", probably) and no-one mentioned the trees!


My info came from Leif Snellman's site, and struck me as having a ring of authenticity. The closest I have ever been to Berlin is Hamburg, and that was when there was a still fortified border separating the two cities. A photo of Hans Herrman's BRM accident from the 1959 GP suggests the centre strip was quite wide at that point, but it could easily have varied along the straight.

I'm not trying to nit-pick, my original interest in these AVUS details was to dispel the old myth that the lap was shortened because it was cut by the border of the Russian Zone post WW2.

#108 autodrome

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 21:54

My info came from Leif Snellman's site, and struck me as having a ring of authenticity. The closest I have ever been to Berlin is Hamburg, and that was when there was a still fortified border separating the two cities. A photo of Hans Herrman's BRM accident from the 1959 GP suggests the centre strip was quite wide at that point, but it could easily have varied along the straight.

I'm not trying to nit-pick, my original interest in these AVUS details was to dispel the old myth that the lap was shortened because it was cut by the border of the Russian Zone post WW2.



Theres a lot of wierdness about the AVUS, foe example satellie images, maps everything shows it to be arrow straight - but drive it and you find yourself applying steering lock.

I think the 6ft grass width is correct - the details in Autodrome came from period reporting I think Autocar in that case. There is an odd thing too when researching it I found suggestion that the firt races were much earlier than recorded - but researching any built in Germany in the first half of the 20th century is a bit of a ballache!

#109 Amphicar

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 23:08

The old Enna-Pergusa circuit in Sicily always struck me as pretty odd - a flat-out slipstream around a snake-infested lake in the back of beyond. Nevertheless it did host a non-championship F1 race for some years in the 60s.

#110 scags

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 23:51

If they still had a race in Livorno, that Bar Isolani would have been a great place to watch it- until a car hit it.

#111 wenoopy

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 11:50

Theres a lot of wierdness about the AVUS, foe example satellie images, maps everything shows it to be arrow straight - but drive it and you find yourself applying steering lock.

I think the 6ft grass width is correct - the details in Autodrome came from period reporting I think Autocar in that case. There is an odd thing too when researching it I found suggestion that the firt races were much earlier than recorded - but researching any built in Germany in the first half of the 20th century is a bit of a ballache!


If you look at this thread :- 1938 Avusrennen you will find on post #7 a photo from the 1959 German GP which to me suggests that the central strip was almost as wide as each of the two carriageways. It appears wide enough to fit 2 Coopers lengthwise across it.

Post #24 has a map which shows the two slight bends you mention, although most circuit diagrams show Avus as dead straight, clearly it wasn't.

#112 Barry Boor

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 11:58

I think your method for estimating the gap between the two straights is flawed.

That picture shows the hairpin but what you may not realise is that the cars went through a right hand kink prior to turning into the haipin, thus making the hairpin much wider in radius and cause it to look as though the two straights were much farther apart than they actually were.

#113 jdtreelines

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 01:18

The original Avus layout looks rather bizarre- two parallel straights about five miles long separated by a six feet strip of grass and then brick-surfaced banked turning loops at each end. Rosemeyer did a lap at an average speed of 172 mph! Imagine two of those silver arrows passing each other with a closing speed of 480 mph! :drunk:

Silver Arrows at Avus


Opel rocket car at Avus

This might be a contender for the first car with a big wing!

AVUS only had a banked turn at the northern end; at the southern end there was a wide radius flat turn which makes Rosemeyer's lap even more impressive. Incidentally several different hairpins were used over the years to give several different lap lengths from 19km down to 2.6km.


#114 wenoopy

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 11:17

I think your method for estimating the gap between the two straights is flawed.

That picture shows the hairpin but what you may not realise is that the cars went through a right hand kink prior to turning into the haipin, thus making the hairpin much wider in radius and cause it to look as though the two straights were much farther apart than they actually were.


I am sorry, Barry but I still think you are mistaken. First, I should point out that I have probably been aware of the layout of the Avus track since at least as early as November 1959, when as a 17-year-old sixth-former in New Zealand, I would have eagerly grabbed my brother's subscription copy of the October 1959 issue of "Motor Sport" as soon as he put it down. The first photo in the pictorial section was an almost full-page picture of the entire 9-car field of heat 2 of the German GP in the short straight after the right-hand kink you mention above. The circuit then curved around to the left to rejoin the northbound lane of the autobahn. Apart from the 2 tarmac autobahn lanes and a grassy area in the "V" made by the short straight, the whole area was paved in concrete, and the track edges were marked by end-to-end haybales.

In Heat 2, Hans Herrmann's BRM(the British Racing Partnership car Moss had driven earlier in the season) hit the haybales at the end of the autobahn straight when his brakes failed, causing the cartwheel/barrel-roll sequence captured on film and printed by all and sundry ever since. (Quite possibly I saw this picture in a newspaper soon after it happened) .However, others also captured this on film, and shots taken from further round the hairpin apparently were used in a 1964 film "L'amour avec des si" . The camera position for these was probably east of the northbound straight and looks across part of that straight, across the grassy centre strip with about 6 people on it, shrubby trees, chairs, a sun umbrella, and innumerable haybales piled up, back to the crash site and the spectator area in the distance. The centre strip is clearly more like 20 feet than 6 feet across. The picture(s) are on the IMCDb.org site but can probably be found most easily by simply looking for "Herrmann Crash Avus" on Google Images.

If this does not convince all concerned parties about the width of the strip, then I may as well search the said Google for a suitable Thai recipe for a spicy straw hat dish.


#115 LittleChris

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 22:17

Theres a lot of wierdness about the AVUS, foe example satellie images, maps everything shows it to be arrow straight - but drive it and you find yourself applying steering lock.


Good photo posted by r.atlos on 3rd Jan 2010 on this Autodiva thread showing that the parallel legs were by no means straight.

http://www.autodiva....p...66&start=80

Edited by LittleChris, 21 December 2010 - 22:17.


#116 Barry Boor

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 23:17

Google Earth confirms this and also shows the verge between the two roads to be around 6 metres wide but in places somewhat less. Of course it may have been different back in the 1950s.

#117 AlanR

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 09:34

If you use the Google Earth time slider there is an aerial picture of the area from 1953.

#118 stevewf1

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:19

I know that Monaco would be high on many people's list as a place that is somewhat unsuitable for motor racing but where else could the circuit description 'silly' be applied.


I have a book called Grand Prix written by Elizabeth Hayward. I bought this book in 1971. It talks about the Grand Prix scene in 1970.

In it, there is this quote about Monaco:

"The giant new buildings are spoiling the view, the prices are rising astronomically, Grand Prix racing should take place on circuits built for the purpose, and yet we still go to Monaco. For how much longer, one wonders?"

Well, how about 40 years longer?

Edited by stevewf1, 22 December 2010 - 10:20.


#119 Duc-Man

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:29

AVUS stands for Automobil-Verkehrs- und Übungs-Straße which translates as: car traffic and practise street. It was basically build as a testground for the german car industry due to their sad performances in racing at the time. It was not a racetrack or an Autobahn open to public, if somebody wanted to use it he had to pay.
The side effect of that street was that it offered a highspeed racetrack.
Going back to the original topic: the AVUS has a pretty silly layout but it is not really a silly location as in where it is.
Compared to the Nürburgring in the middle of nowhere where you have to ask yourself how somebody came up with that idea.

Paramout Ranch near Malibu/California?
It's not just somewhere in the nowhere. It also had a strange 8 shaped layout. I still haven't figured out if there was a bridge or an intersection.


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#120 wenoopy

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:51

Paramout Ranch near Malibu/California?
It's not just somewhere in the nowhere. It also had a strange 8 shaped layout. I still haven't figured out if there was a bridge or an intersection.


On the thread "Racing Circuits Almanac" Rob Semmeling lists Paramount Ranch among the "Circuits with an overpass/underpass" along with Suzuka etc.

It appears to have been dangerous enough in that format, as use of it stopped after several racing fatalities.


#121 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:51

Using traffic lights, perhaps?

It's of moment, relating to your comments, that the Nurburgring wasn't put out in the middle of nowhere until some time after the construction of the AVUS.

#122 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 11:04

Paramount Ranch:

Posted Image

Posted Image


Yet, Hugenholtz also gave us Zolder and Jarama...


Just for the record: there is no doubt in my mind that Zolder was among the best circuits in Europe when it opened.


#123 Frank S

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 19:02

On the thread "Racing Circuits Almanac" Rob Semmeling lists Paramount Ranch among the "Circuits with an overpass/underpass" along with Suzuka etc.

It appears to have been dangerous enough in that format, as use of it stopped after several racing fatalities.

This may show something, and lead to more:

Paramount Ranch pages

#124 Michael Ferner

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 19:28

Compared to the Nürburgring in the middle of nowhere where you have to ask yourself how somebody came up with that idea.


This is not the middle of nowhere, it's the heart of Europe! ;)

Seriously, the Eifel region has a history of being home to poverty, we've been called "Prussian Sibiria" for eons, not without reason! The Nürburgring was purposely built in this neck of the woods to provide work (and ultimately food!) for a seriously underdeveloped community. Worked a treat, too. :)

These days, though, the Nürburgring serves mainly as a stumbling block for amigo politicians - we'll see if it works well that way in March. :well:

Edited by Michael Ferner, 22 December 2010 - 19:32.


#125 MCS

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 20:23

Just for the record: there is no doubt in my mind that Zolder was among the best circuits in Europe when it opened.


And that from somebody who has written a very good book on the Nürburgring Südschleife. Interesting.

I passed Zolder last week but didn't feel compelled to stop. I also passed the Koksijde airfield site in Belgium, which must surely qualify for this thread. I've never fathomed whose idea it was to run an F5000 event there in 1969 and there is a distinct lack of information about the place. One thing I did notice a while back though was the similarity of the track layout to the old Snetterton.


#126 bradbury west

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 00:50

I recall that Jenks used to reckon that Nivelles was a silly place to race.
Roger Lund

#127 F3Wrench

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 08:44

Anybody mentioned Nogaro yet? I only went there once for an F3 meeting back in 1970, and I remember trying to drive a Ford Zodiac Mk IV round the circuit when we first arrived. We actually had to do a 3-point turn at 2 of the hairpins...

According to the current Nogaro (Circuit Paul Armagnac) web site, it has improved dramatically; anyone feel that this is still the most Mickey Mouse of all purpose-built circuits, or am I unfairly judging them based on the 1970 version of a track?

One huge benefit of being there: they persuaded us to accept gifts of huge bottles of Armagnac brandy - or was that just the non-French drivers ;) ?

#128 LittleChris

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 21:37

According to the current Nogaro (Circuit Paul Armagnac) web site, it has improved dramatically; anyone feel that this is still the most Mickey Mouse of all purpose-built circuits, or am I unfairly judging them based on the 1970 version of a track?



If you think Nogaro's bad, I take it you've not been to the overblown kart track that is Croix-en-Ternois :wave:

Edited by LittleChris, 24 December 2010 - 21:38.


#129 ensign14

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 21:57

No-one's mentioned that Israeli circuit that hosted an F2 qualifying? Ashdod?

#130 Raido

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 00:28

Ashkelon, 1970's? Nobody seems to have even figured the actual layout yet. (So far, it's partly guesswork afaik!)



And this was motorcycle racing,... but still... (click the right arrow a few times for more unsafetyness at great speed!)

http://wegcircuits.n...rendaal/27.html


#131 LittleChris

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 00:35

And this was motorcycle racing,... but still... (click the right arrow a few times for more unsafetyness at great speed!)

http://wegcircuits.n...rendaal/27.html


Still is at places like Killalane, Kells, Faugheen and long may it continue.


#132 Barry Boor

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 09:03

The designers of Voerendaal seem to have be greatly influenced by the pre-Ford curves Le Mans! :)

#133 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 09:28

Well, if we're going to include motorcycle circuits the list of 'silly' circuits (as in: crazy :drunk: ) is endless...

Can't resist posting a picture of Voerendaal back in the day:

Posted Image

As for a really 'silly' circuit, try the Heidbergring in Germany. Barely bigger than the average kart track but hosted races for single seaters, touring cars, motorcycles, superkarts... One M. Schumacher won a Formula König race there early in his career.

Then again, the Heidbergring doesn't look so silly compared to Jamaica's Dover Raceway...

#134 Duc-Man

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 11:04

Ashkelon, 1970's? Nobody seems to have even figured the actual layout yet. (So far, it's partly guesswork afaik!)


Barnea Beach circut. This is all I found.
If you look at google maps there is a part of Ashkelon called Barnea. When you zoom in you will read 'Neighborhood (under construction) There is a street named Tsvi Segal that runs just like that long left on the sketch I found.

#135 kayemod

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 14:12

Can anyone provide links to some of these tracks? I've done some Googling, but haven't been able to find a single thing on one or two of them.

#136 Amphicar

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 18:51

Barnea Beach circut. This is all I found.
If you look at google maps there is a part of Ashkelon called Barnea. When you zoom in you will read 'Neighborhood (under construction) There is a street named Tsvi Segal that runs just like that long left on the sketch I found.

Askelon was not only a silly place - Saturday was also a silly day to pick for a race, give Orthodox Jewish observance of the Sabbath! As I recall from contemporary reports, large scale demonstrations against the races, coupled with an almost complete lack of crowd control led to the F2 race being aborted, though an FVee race took place at reduced speeds.

There is quite a good article on an Israeli website here, including a couple of photos. If you use Google Chrome you can get a translation from the Hebrew text.

#137 Tim Murray

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 19:08

There is quite a good article on an Israeli website here, including a couple of photos.

That article was written by TNFer 'duby' who also contributed to this earlier thread on the race.

GP of Israel 1970

#138 Amphicar

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 19:26

That article was written by TNFer 'duby' who also contributed to this earlier thread on the race.

GP of Israel 1970

Thanks, as I recall, the circuit was formed from the roads of a new development area, where the primary infrastructure (roads & serwers) had been built but no houses had been completed.

#139 Raido

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 00:21

Can anyone provide links to some of these tracks? I've done some Googling, but haven't been able to find a single thing on one or two of them.


Look no further mate - this is about the most extensive track list you're likely to find. (Includes obscure kart tracks, only-used-once temporary and ghost tracks, motorcycle tracks, etc etc.) Alternatives would be Guidodecarli's site, Rob's site for Dutchie tracks, and the Fastlane's Racingcircuits.net mirror.

http://www.geocities...c_sat/main.html

Edited by Raido, 26 December 2010 - 00:22.


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#140 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 11:19

Funny how my website, which the Japanese site linked above copied pretty much in full, has become an "alternative" rather than the original source. :down:

While the Japanese site is insanely extensive in some cases - indoor kart tracks anyone? - I would certainly look further if you care about accuracy and detail...

#141 MCS

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 11:26

If you think Nogaro's bad, I take it you've not been to the overblown kart track that is Croix-en-Ternois :wave:


How about Lédenon?! Ugh.

Edited by MCS, 26 December 2010 - 11:28.


#142 kayemod

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 11:45

Slightly surprised that Nürnburg's Norisring has escaped mention so far in this thread. Far from the worst, especially if you're a closet Nazi sympathiser, but pretty poor all the same.

#143 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 13:18

...which brings to mind the races held at the New York World's Fair on the eve of WW2...

I fancy that might have been a very poor substitute for a real circuit.

#144 Raido

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 10:37

Slightly surprised that Nürnburg's Norisring has escaped mention so far in this thread. Far from the worst, especially if you're a closet Nazi sympathiser, but pretty poor all the same.


Not much wrong with Norisring as a track, you might say that the location has a dark past but this thread is more about silly/dangerous tracks itself rather than their history. (If that were a criterion, the Ring and Monza with dozens of deaths would also qualify).

Funny how my website, which the Japanese site linked above copied pretty much in full, has become an "alternative" rather than the original source
While the Japanese site is insanely extensive in some cases - indoor kart tracks anyone? - I would certainly look further if you care about accuracy and detail...


I'm not playing favours here Rob, I think your site is just as good as the other "alternatives", including the Nuc_Sat site.
But that one is probably the most extensive, even if it copied things left right & centre (which is fine as long as it isn't commercialized - everything that's put up on the Internet *will* be copied after all, whoever doesn't want that, shouldn't put it up on the Internet): for the user looking for the most tracks in a specific country, that doesn't matter. If one wants more specific information, sites like yours provide that after all.

I'm thinking about recreating Voerendaal for racing simulators, btw... Could be interesting place to race (again) :smoking: ;)

#145 Amphicar

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 15:41

So far no-one has nominated the Phoenix street circuit, where the US Grand Prix was held for three years (1989-1991). Not only was it a tedious track layout, mostly comprising right angled turns but the searing heat meant a large number of mechanical retirements - plus of course the inability of the locals to contain their indifference about the race. If I recall correctly, in its final year an ostrich race on the outskirts of Phoenix attracted more spectators!

#146 Jagracer

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 14:52

Does anybody remember going to Cassablanca in 1970 with the 2litre sports car series ? It was a Road circuit around the town. We were very well looked after by the organizers, giving each team an Interpreter to help with the Language & to show us where we could eat etc. & have a good time ( leave you to know what I mean )
Great Circuit but very Sandy in places & we had to get some High Octane fuel brought in as their Fuel was well down on Octane rating. The other problem was that the Prize Money was in their Currency which was not recognised in Europe or the UK. so we had to find some shady type of Black Market money launderer to convert it to Dollars or UK. currency at a cost of 10% to us. All good fun really as you felt you were in the Spy Business
Our Car didn't finish due to a Mechanical problem & was stuck out on the Circuit I got to it while the race was still on & there was a Policeman there with a Bamboo cane swatting the Kids who were trying to get into the car, I got it running & was then told by the Cop to drive away from this Building it was outside ASAP as it was a Lepper colony homestead, You've never seen a Mechanic move so fast in your life
Had a great time there & we all enjoyed it Phil Bradford

#147 hlfuzzball

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 06:29

And now I nominate this for the end-all of silly:


http://www.kueschall...en/inh1173.aspx

Nothing like full-sized sports cars on an Indoor Go-Kart track !



Tom

#148 sbrinley

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 19:46

...which brings to mind the races held at the New York World's Fair on the eve of WW2...

I fancy that might have been a very poor substitute for a real circuit.


While I never saw a diagram or picture of the World's Fair circuit, Jim McGee, the crew chief for the Team Roosevelt Fiat-Abarth racing organization, saw Tazio Nuvolari race on the circuit. Probably worth the price of admission.

#149 gfastr

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 20:23

While I never saw a diagram or picture of the World's Fair circuit, Jim McGee, the crew chief for the Team Roosevelt Fiat-Abarth racing organization, saw Tazio Nuvolari race on the circuit. Probably worth the price of admission.


You may have your circuits confused. Roosevelt Raceway was a purpose built circuit on Long Island used for the Vanderbilt Cup races in 1936 & 1937. This was to match Europe's best monoposto cars and drivers against American machinery and talent. It turned out to be no match at all ;-/ This was the event that Nuvolari won in 1936. The Roosevelt Raceway circuit configuration varied slightly between 1936 and 37 but both were on the order of 4 miles in length.

The original Automobile Racing Club of America (predescessor to the modern day Sports Car Club of America, not the current oval track stock car organization of the same name) raced at the World's Fair site in Flushing Meadows on a makeshift course in 1940. The circuit was .75 mile in length. The ARCA race was 75 minutes in duration and was won by Frank Griswold in an Alfa Romeo.

#150 sbrinley

sbrinley
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  • Joined: January 11

Posted 27 January 2011 - 19:20

You may have your circuits confused. Roosevelt Raceway was a purpose built circuit on Long Island used for the Vanderbilt Cup races in 1936 & 1937. This was to match Europe's best monoposto cars and drivers against American machinery and talent. It turned out to be no match at all ;-/ This was the event that Nuvolari won in 1936. The Roosevelt Raceway circuit configuration varied slightly between 1936 and 37 but both were on the order of 4 miles in length.

The original Automobile Racing Club of America (predescessor to the modern day Sports Car Club of America, not the current oval track stock car organization of the same name) raced at the World's Fair site in Flushing Meadows on a makeshift course in 1940. The circuit was .75 mile in length. The ARCA race was 75 minutes in duration and was won by Frank Griswold in an Alfa Romeo.


Indeed. Jim never mentioned the course. Coincidentally, it was at the Roosevelt raceway (then a horse track) in 1959 that I met Walt Hansgen and Ray Cuomo. It was an event to show off cars and give people a ride around a course with a racing driver. Ray gave me a quick ride in a Fiat-Abarth around a short, twisty circuit set up in a parking lot. Ray later arranged for me to get to Bridgehampton for my first race with Team Roosevelt.