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Cars that were involved in fatal crashes; What became of them?


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#1 grandiracing

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 02:16

Hello all,

I have been an observer on this board, as well as the old and new TBK boards, the fastlane, etc...While there are many posts made about fatal accidents, many of them do not contain information about what happened to the vehicle involved. I have found some snippets of information, such as Cevert's Tyrrell 006-3 being destroyed personally at the hands of Derek Gardner, or in the complete opposite result, the Lotus 72 of Jochen Rindt's fatal accident having been found and being restored...What about the other cars, of the many drivers in the history of motorsport that have perished? What became of them?

I do not wish for my question to be misunderstood...I am not looking for information on the crashes themselves, or pictures of such. Just merely wondering how many of these vehicles saw their end with their drivers, and how many made their way back into the world

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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 04:43

I am sure that using the search facility you will find at least one prior thread on this subject...

But I know what you're getting at. The Bob Jane Elfin 400, for instance, in which Bevan Gibson died at Bathurst in 1969... it was rebuilt and raced by Ken Hastings. Today it enjoys further life in Historic racing.

Or the car in which ex-motorcyclist Les Cramp died at Phillip Island practising for the Australian Grand Prix in 1935. The car got out of control on one of the straights and rolled. This car had anything but a charmed life, first entering this race in 1933 with Neil Gullifer driving, its flexible magneto drive failed that year and put the car out at about three-quarters distance, while in 1934 it was running in sixth place near the end to retire with 'oil trouble.'

After the fatal crash, West Australian spectator at the race, Jack Nelson, purchased the remains and had them boxed up and shipped to Perth. The fuel tank wasn't included as it was a large tank (the car was said to have been built for the Targa Florio in 1926) and so not necessary in WA racing, and it took up valuable shipping space.

As if it was jinxed, the car continued to cause problems. The reconstruction of the car in WA proceeded with a Chev 4 chassis, the Ballot running gear and suspension and a reconstructed body. When it was started up in preparation for racing at Lake Perkollili, however, the engine succumbed and had to be put aside. A Ford V8 engine was installed in its place.

The fuel tank, however, was purchased by Melbourne racer Jim Gullan. He fitted it to his Wolseley Hornet for the 1936 South Australian Centenary Grand Prix at Port Elliot, hoping he could go the distance without refuelling. This was to prove his undoing, though, as once the fuel level fell the surge in the tank was to play havoc with the car's handling and he finally lost control of it on a fast sweeper. Sliding off the road, a wheel struck a steel spike in the ground and damaged it so he couldn't continue.

With fewer Ballot parts than ever before, Jack Nelson raced on for the next three years in Western Australia, then sold the car when he built his supercharged Ford 10 powered car in 1940. Along the way he had again rebodied the car and had struck terminal engine overheating at Lobethal in 1940. Overheating was to befall the car many times later and it features in one old picture from the forties, when Syd Barker owned it, with a very tall jet of steam coming from its radiator in the pits.

Eventually the Ford V8 engine was replaced, first with a flathead Dodge and then a much more potent Chevrolet V8. This was after Rod Denney and Vin Smith had raced it and when in the hands of ex-motorcyclist Mick Geneve.

It was in Denney's hands (but still Barker's ownership) that it once again contested the Australian Grand Prix, that having been held at Narrogin in WA in 1951. He retired after just nine of the 24 laps. It was never, in fact, to finish this event... Geneve entered it in 1957 and was out by quarter distance with unspecified problems.

To complete the story, Geneve was contesting a supporting event at the 1958 Caversham 6-hour race meeting when the car got out of control on the straight and overturned. Geneve became the second driver of that car to die.

#3 Rob G

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 06:11

The Indianapolis 500 had a couple of star-crossed examples like the car described in Ray's post above. In 1931, Joe Caccia and riding mechanic Clarence Grove were killed when their Duesenberg leaped the southwest wall and crashed into a tree. The next year, Benny Benefield wrecked that same Duesenberg in the same place, and his riding mechanic Harry Cox was killed.

In 1935, Johnny Hannon was killed in practice for the 500 driving a Miller owned by Leon Duray. The car was rebuilt in time for qualifying, and Clay Weatherly made it into the field. Unfortunately, Weatherly became the second driver to be killed in that car during the month when he crashed early in the race.

#4 Stefan Schmidt

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 08:22

Patrick Depailler Alfa-Roemeo 179 after Hockenheim - destroyed in Alfa factory




#5 Charlie Z

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 08:24

Ayrton Senna's FW16/2 was impounded by the Italian authorities after the crash in Imola 1994, and kept locked in a garage for several years.
After the trial was closed, the car was returned to the Williams team and the team destroyed the chassis (in early 00', don't remember the exact year, but you can google it).

Regards
Martin

#6 HiRich

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 14:28

Several 500s were resurrected after fatal accidents - Ron Dryden's JBS, Sture Selander's Effyh, Peter Michell's Cooper come to mind - but I think the circumstances are somewhat different:
- Times were tough (and it was post-war), so there was always someone willing to buy a cheap chassis
- In all the above, and more, death occurred after the driver had been ejected. One might rationalise that the car didn't carry some hoodoo
- Exports made things much easier. One might guess that ad copy omitted a few details.

#7 Daytona 935

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 20:40

I've recently read Mr Fitzpatrick , saying that his Joest 935 Moby Dick replica , in which Rolf Stommelen lost life at Riverside back in 1983 , will be rebuild. The remains of the crashed car have been stored for 23 years.



#8 JoBo

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 21:53

Jochen Rindt`s LOTUS in which he crashed fatally in Monza is still located in a garage of a private owner near Milan. Still with all damages and scratches from that tragic day 40 years ago!

JoBo

#9 Michael Ferner

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 22:45

The Indianapolis 500 had a couple of star-crossed examples like the car described in Ray's post above. In 1931, Joe Caccia and riding mechanic Clarence Grove were killed when their Duesenberg leaped the southwest wall and crashed into a tree. The next year, Benny Benefield wrecked that same Duesenberg in the same place, and his riding mechanic Harry Cox was killed.

In 1935, Johnny Hannon was killed in practice for the 500 driving a Miller owned by Leon Duray. The car was rebuilt in time for qualifying, and Clay Weatherly made it into the field. Unfortunately, Weatherly became the second driver to be killed in that car during the month when he crashed early in the race.


In the US, and especially during the 'interwar' years it was pretty common to recycle "death cars", the most famous probably being the Harry Hooker #99 that once killed three drivers in one single year (1925: Billy Reed March 20, John Kemp May 24 and Gene Bingham October 4). The car (or, at least parts of it since it changed considerably over time) was a mainstay of Pacific Coast racing for over ten years, half of them before and half of them after that fateful 1925!

The 1938 Lou Moore/Offy was another multiple death car, after winning the Indy 500 in that year it killed Floyd Roberts the very next, and after sitting on pole for the 1946 Indy 500 it killed George Robson later that year.

The 1931 John Bagley/Cragar killed Speed Haskell in 1934, and Doc MacKenzie two years later, but was still running in 1941, and very probably after the war, too. Its "sister" car, the 1936 Bagley/McDowell did in Frankie Beeder in 1938, and Bumpy Bumpus in 1946.

The 1937 Gus Schrader/Offy killed its original owner in 1941, then Eddie Nicholson in 1946 and Bill Anderson in 1950. The George Brown/Gallivan killed Fritz Benes in 1929, and Cotton Bunker two years later. A 1923 Duesenberg killed Howdy Wilcox and Joe Boyer in subsequent years on the same track, and was still used ten years later when a then team car killed Mark Billman. Both cars returned to service the following year, and the second one was involved in another fatality in 1937. Another 1923 Duesenberg killed Ernie Ansterburg in 1924, and a mechanic two years later.

The 1930 Miller-Hartz killed a boy that was playing in a backyard adjacent to the Indianapolis Moto Speedway in 1931, and three years later it killed Pete Kreis and Bob Hahn. It was still racing in 1939, when it was involved in Floyd Roberts's fatal accident in the Moore/Offy as mentioned above.

The 1936 Iddings/Hal killed Johnny McMaken in its first year, and as the Iddings/Offy it did in Johnny Shackleford twelve years later. It won a AAA National Championship race the very next year. The Sonny Talamont/Rajo killed its original owner in 1926, and D. D. Morris two years later. A 1926 Miller that was originally owned by Frank Lockhart killed Ray Keech in 1929, and Frank Farmer in '32.

The Bernie & Louis Katz/Duesey killed two spectators in a 1929 race, and almost to a day two years later its driver. The Joe Kinsey/Fronty #300 killed Glenn Hiett in 1928, Speed Adams in 1932 and Ray Hebert in 1933 - it was still repaired and raced on! The Lloyd Vieaux/Cragar killed its original owner in 1934, and Ed Graves three years later. The Glenn & Vern Terry/Hisso did in Bert Karnatz in 1934, and Buzz Mendenhall in 1938 - it, too, was repaired and raced on for many more years.

I guess this list could go and on, and I only listed multiple death cars so far - any number of "killer" cars was run on for years without further adding to its toll, thankfully...

Edited by Michael Ferner, 02 December 2010 - 22:58.


#10 Flat Black 84

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 14:37

When money was tight, sentiment was in short supply.

#11 f1steveuk

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 15:42

Jochen Rindt`s LOTUS in which he crashed fatally in Monza is still located in a garage of a private owner near Milan. Still with all damages and scratches from that tragic day 40 years ago!

JoBo

Really, I was told recently it's in Britain and in the process of being rebuilt!

Athol Graham's LSR car, "City of Salt Lake" has a very chequered history, and is currently being rebuilt yet again, by his son.

http://www.chevyasyl...22/Welcome.html

Well worth a read!

Edited by f1steveuk, 03 December 2010 - 17:53.


#12 Sharman

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 17:07

As I have said before when you are in your early twenties and money is in short supply the word callous does not cross your mind.

Edited by Sharman, 03 December 2010 - 17:07.


#13 jj2728

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 19:46

As I have said before when you are in your early twenties and money is in short supply the word callous does not cross your mind.


Nor does the word superstitious......


#14 Sisyphus

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 20:06

Athol Graham's LSR car, "City of Salt Lake" has a very chequered history, and is currently being rebuilt yet again, by his son.

http://www.chevyasyl...22/Welcome.html

Well worth a read!


The wreck of "Infinity", the jet powered LSR car that Glenn Leasher was killed in during 1962 (not long after Graham's fatal crash), was apparently left along the road out to the salt flats for some years. The excellent new book on this period of LSR competition, "Speed Duel" by Samuel Hawley (I highly recommend it), has a photo of the wreckage.

#15 Giraffe

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 20:49

Jochen Rindt`s LOTUS in which he crashed fatally in Monza is still located in a garage of a private owner near Milan. Still with all damages and scratches from that tragic day 40 years ago!

JoBo


The Rindt 72 / R2 has been in the UK for several years now. It is still Italian owned and the tub was restored here in 2003 (IIRC) and has remained in that state only on a shelf with much of the remainder of the car ever since. I was allowed to view the car this year.
The owner does not wish any further restoration to take place in the forseeable future, which is quite understandable in the circumstances.


#16 The Oracle

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 21:59

Interesting read, however I wonder would cars that were involved in fatal accidents that didn't kill the driver continue to race, i'm thinking Clark's 1961 Monza Lotus, Villeneuve's 1977 Japan Ferrari even Villeneuve jnr's BAR Aussie car?

#17 ken devine

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 00:39

In Ray Bells post about the famous Ballot he did not mention the car looking nothing like the original was powered by a Chev Corvette
when he crashed and died in 1969.The remains of the car ended up on the local tip.I have recently received several excellent photos
of the car when it was in the hands of Vin Smith and Bunny Court.

#18 ken devine

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 00:42

My apologies to Ray he did say it was powered by a Chev.

Edited by ken devine, 04 December 2010 - 00:43.


#19 Catalina Park

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:14

Really, I was told recently it's in Britain and in the process of being rebuilt!

Athol Graham's LSR car, "City of Salt Lake" has a very chequered history, and is currently being rebuilt yet again, by his son.

http://www.chevyasyl...22/Welcome.html

Well worth a read!

Thanks for that link Steve, what a fantastic story.

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#20 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:03

Originally posted by ken devine
In Ray Bells post about the famous Ballot he did not mention the car, looking nothing like the original, was powered by a Chev Corvette
when he crashed and died in 1969.The remains of the car ended up on the local tip. I have recently received several excellent photos
of the car when it was in the hands of Vin Smith and Bunny Court.


1958...

I did mention the replacement body Jack Nelson did and then the new body for '38 - '39. Probably more significant about this rebody was that the car became a central-seater after having had two seats previously, the driver sitting high in the middle. I did omit the later body change, however.

When you received those photos, Ken, were there any of the Ranford/Maurice/Wakelin car?


#21 ken devine

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:14

1958...

I did mention the replacement body Jack Nelson did and then the new body for '38 - '39. Probably more significant about this rebody was that the car became a central-seater after having had two seats previously, the driver sitting high in the middle. I did omit the later body change, however.

When you received those photos, Ken, were there any of the Ranford/Maurice/Wakelin car?

Ray there was one photo with George Wakelin in the car on the starting line at Goomalling but it is not a closeup.I did send you a photo
sometime ago with Arther Collett sitting in the car and it showed the front very well.If you didn't receive it let me know and i will
send you another one.

#22 Flat Black 84

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 15:01

Nor does the word superstitious......


True. Which is all the more interesting given that superstition--particularly in the old days--is rampant in auto racing. Personally, I would have been spooked by driving a car that had been another man's coffin. But the love of racing overcome's many things, including fear.

Edited by Flat Black 84, 04 December 2010 - 15:02.


#23 FLB

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 15:54

According to Adam Cooper's Piers Courage book, Jackie Stewart himself made sure that the remains of his friend's de Tomaso 505 were destroyed (melted?) after Zandvoort.

On a side note, I've often wondered what became of the remains of Williamson's March 731 after he was killed. March weren't exactly shy about re-using old chassis...

#24 Michael Ferner

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 16:26

Well, in the case of fire things are a bit more complicated - what parts of the car would survive with any degree of structural integrity? Perhaps that's why we don't see any more "death cars" on the circuits these days, fire and composite chassis (which absorb energy by "pulverisation"). Back in the days, a bit of bent metal was easy to fix, and no reason to throw away a perfectly good racing car!

#25 f1steveuk

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 16:37

On a side note, I've often wondered what became of the remains of Williamson's March 731 after he was killed. March weren't exactly shy about re-using old chassis...

There was quite a long thread regarding Roger's 721/731, but I cannot recall if it came to a final conclusion.

Strange, some don't like the idea of re-using a chassis/tub, but engines are considered differently, Rindt's DFV for example.

The wreck of the Palmedes "Infinity" LSR car did indeed stand sentinel at the entrance to Bonneville after Leasher's fatal crash, as a warning against impatiance if nothing else!

What was the fate of the "Spirit of Elkdom" Triplex Special, that to had a bit of a history killing a driver and a cameraman, or the Stutz Blackhawk for that matter. I recall the engines may have been used after the respective accidents?

#26 BRG

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 16:51

The Rindt 72 / R2 has been in the UK for several years now. It is still Italian owned and the tub was restored here in 2003 (IIRC) and has remained in that state only on a shelf with much of the remainder of the car ever since. I was allowed to view the car this year.
The owner does not wish any further restoration to take place in the forseeable future, which is quite understandable in the circumstances.

I find this odd. Firstly, how did the wreck get into the current owners hands? Surely Lotus didn't sell it off? That would surely have been unfeeling in the extreme. But given the legal imbroglio that followed, was it confiscated by the authorities and perhaps later sold off by them?

My other thought is that why would you keep it in the crashed state? Either scrap it completely or rebuild it. Leaving it 'as is' seems to be the least sensitive option, but perhaps other see it differently.

#27 Michael Ferner

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 17:01

What was the fate of the "Spirit of Elkdom" Triplex Special, that to had a bit of a history killing a driver and a cameraman, or the Stutz Blackhawk for that matter. I recall the engines may have been used after the respective accidents?


Yes, the Blackhawk's engine made it into an Indy Car several years later, when the rules finally allowed it. Don't know about the Triplex, but it could've made three aeroplanes very happy with its "endowment"... :lol:

#28 Tim Murray

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 17:31

I find this odd. Firstly, how did the wreck get into the current owners hands? Surely Lotus didn't sell it off? That would surely have been unfeeling in the extreme. But given the legal imbroglio that followed, was it confiscated by the authorities and perhaps later sold off by them?

My other thought is that why would you keep it in the crashed state? Either scrap it completely or rebuild it. Leaving it 'as is' seems to be the least sensitive option, but perhaps other see it differently.

There was a lot of discussion about this in an earlier thread:

Pictures of Rindt’s #22 Lotus

Here are the relevant posts:

Back in 1997 when I first compiled the full Lotus 72 chassis race log, I had the information that the wreck of Rindt's chassis 72/2 was in the posession of Mr. Giulio Romani from Italy. Michael Oliver corrected it to "Guido Romani" and then wrote the following:
"....The car continued to languish in a government-owned scrap yard [in Italy] where it remained until 1985." Then Guido Romani discovered and acquired the car and kept it in a garage in his home until 1993 (Stefan's photos might well be from that garage). Then Roman's friend Pier-Luigi Mapelli bought the car and "in 2000 the decision was taken to send the car back to England to be rebuilt to its former glory and in November 2001, respected restorer Simon Hadfield began the difficult task". Although it's not fully clear, it seems that Mapelli ordered the restoration....

My theory (no supporting facts) is that the authorities simply forgot about it and then Romani either got to know about it by accident (maybe he knew someone who knew or got to know about the car) or made his own investigations....maybe we should ask Michael Oliver, the author of the Lotus 72 book - he is also a member of this forum.

The Lotus 72 was released after the investigations were finalised (which could have taken a considerable amount of time in Italy - look at the Senna situation where 10 years later they are still dithering around), but it is not clear if its availability was immediately apparent.

Rob Fowler told me that he & Tom Wheatcroft missed the remains by something like half a day, Guido had got there before them.

Doug if yer mate Tom had found the remains would he have left them as such, like he did with the LEC, or would he have had H&F restore the car?

Later on, when he needed a 1.5 litre Climax V8 for his Lola F1 car Guido offered the 72's remains to Cedric Selzer as a swap for a Climax V8, but Cedric decided against the deal.
(taste was one reason, the difficulty of building a new chassis for a 72 (even if it was repairable, C.S. does not believe that any original Lotus chassis is safe to use) would also have been a factor).

What I wonder is how come the remains don't go back to the original teams, have they been paid off by insurance, or compensated by the authorities, or does it take so long that they aren't interested in an obsolete wreck??



#29 Thundersport

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 19:19

I read on a forum maybe this one that Williamsons March or part of it (maybe the chassis number) had been restored?

On a different note Ratzenbergers Simtek was buried.

#30 f1steveuk

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 20:14

Possibly this one, which I see I posted on, ooops!

http://forums.autosp...mp;hl=march 721

Edited by f1steveuk, 04 December 2010 - 20:15.


#31 Thundersport

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 20:32

Thats the one.

#32 ZOOOM

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 19:12

http://www.vukovicha...ent.com/23c.jpg

This is the car ( the blue one in the background) that Bill Vukovich was killed in back in '55 at Indy. It was repaired and Jim Rathmann attempted to qualify it in 1956...

ZOOOM

Edited by ZOOOM, 06 December 2010 - 19:15.


#33 ZOOOM

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 19:21

Here is a shot of Jim Rathmann again practising in the Hopkins Special that had been rebuilt after the Vukovich crash at Indy in 1955.

http://www.vukovicha...mannHopkins.jpg

ZOOOM

#34 B Squared

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 19:48

At the near end of the Angelo Angelopolous book, The Race, printed in 1958; there is a photo of the destroyed Vukovich car in the garage area with two crew members working on the car with two bystanders close by. I remember figuring out this was Vukovich's car as a kid and was a bit surprised to see the aftermath on a full page shot. The caption reads:

But morning brings its labors. Some car may bear the wrenching message of a violent end. After the stunned crew are able to stir themselves from their grief, they hasten to obliterate the scars - to return to the memory of the giant who once sat in it.

#35 Victor_RO

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 19:48

Another one: wasn't the Porsche in which Manfred Winkelhock was killed at Mosport in '85 rebuilt... and then crashed again about 9 months later killing Jo Gartner at Le Mans '86 as well?

#36 Jesper O. Hansen

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 21:04

Another one: wasn't the Porsche in which Manfred Winkelhock was killed at Mosport in '85 rebuilt... and then crashed again about 9 months later killing Jo Gartner at Le Mans '86 as well?


http://wsrp.ic.cz/ch...orsche_962.html

Look for chassis' 110 and 118 for the Winkelhock/Gartner connection. Apparently two different cars, but from memory I assumed the same, alas before checking. But according to Martin Krejci, the 118 Gartner car was rebuild.

Jesper

#37 sandy

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 22:18

Maserai 250F #2512. Onofre Marimon - 1954 German GP. Rebuilt as team car for Roberto Mieres 1955. Later sold as 2518 according to DSJ.

#38 David McKinney

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 22:51

Close but no cigar

Rebuilt as 2512 and raced again 1955 Italian GP. Renumbered 2514 for Musso in 1955, then renumbered 2518 midyear. But never sold

#39 David Force

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 00:18

I can clearly recall the day when Guido Romani took me to a small room at the back of the museum at Monza and showed me the Rindt wreck. The late eighties I think. He also had pictures of the car taken in the police pound where it, amazingly, lay for many years. As I was the owner of 72/6 at the time we had discussions about Mr Romani getting the car restored. He did indeed sell it to Mr Mapelli and the rest is recorded here.

And Ronnies 78 ?

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#40 Cynic2

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 03:28

The wreck of "Infinity", the jet powered LSR car that Glenn Leasher was killed in during 1962 (not long after Graham's fatal crash), was apparently left along the road out to the salt flats for some years. The excellent new book on this period of LSR competition, "Speed Duel" by Samuel Hawley (I highly recommend it), has a photo of the wreckage.



I hadn't heard of this book but bought it and it arrived today. (Thank you, Amazon.) It is indeed excellent, and thank you for the recommendation. I also think Craig Breedlove, probably the most charismatic man I ever met, is right: the game has been played.

D.S.

#41 Henri Greuter

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 07:42

http://www.vukovicha...ent.com/23c.jpg

This is the car ( the blue one in the background) that Bill Vukovich was killed in back in '55 at Indy. It was repaired and Jim Rathmann attempted to qualify it in 1956...

ZOOOM




The chassis of that particular car is nowadays part of the Louwman Collection at the Hague. Its last Indy attempt was in '59 with a Maserati V8, driven by Shorty Templeman, DNQ.
Currently the chassis is powered by a Triumph engine, converted into a street legal hotrod but with much smaller wheels and using the bodywork of the car in 1959. Still drivable?

I had the honor to be involved in the rediscovery of that car's true identity in the Summer of 1997. All that was known about it at the time was its 1959 actvities but nothing known about its earlier history. And at that time none of the books by Gordon White or Bill Enoch&Greg Littleton that slist all Kurtis roadsters and their careers existed so I had to contact people in the USA.
When I inspected the car I wasn't impressed with it because of its condition and being so mutilated. When the news came in that this once was the frame in which Bill Vukovich was killed, I was near shocked and bewildered.

The only comparison I can make to make one realize wat kind of experience it was; "try to imagine you're seeing a homemade car, built up around a discarded carbon fibre monocoque that was sold of cheaply. And then find out a few days later that this monocoque was the one of the car in which Senna died. Such an experience comes close to what I felt that occasion, given the status of Bill Vukovich.

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 08 December 2010 - 07:43.


#42 Henri Greuter

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 10:30

another Indycar that was involved with fatalities: the 1946 built FWD Kurtis-Novi

Of course the car has been rebuilt during its career, for example, needing a new nose cone after its first fatal accident: Ralph Hepburn in 1948.
But allegedly the basic chassis frame was still the same and most of the bodywork behind the front wheels also appears to have retained over the years so the car is supposedly very much the same when it took its second victim in 1953: Chet Miller.

This particular car is restored in running condition nowadays (the work finished in 1998) and still in private hands. A few details are changed compared with the original trim of 1946-1953 for reasons of practicallity.


Henri

#43 Sharman

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 11:12

I don't know the chassis number but the "C"Type Jaguar of Joe Kelly made a very nasty mess of a number of people at Oulton in 1953 or 4, killing a doctor and chopping the feet off another marshal. The car was badly damaged but rebuilt and I am sure is now worth an astronomical amount of money with little or no thought being given to its early history.

#44 Tim Murray

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 12:06

According to Motorsport Memorial the race was the 1955 British Empire Trophy and the chassis number was 050:

http://www.motorspor...hp?db=ct&n=7161

#45 The Oracle

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 13:53

And Ronnies 78 ?


Maybe i'm missing the point here but I can't see Ronnie's car being pigeonholed with the likes of the Rindt and Williamson car as he was expected to survive the incident and died due to poor medical attention, I doubt it raced in F1 again as the 78 had had it's day by then as the 79 season saw Lotus use the 80 and then revert to the 79 chassis, I believe Rebaque was using 79s by then as well as adapting his own machine.

If this car is still around I would not have a problem with its history, ok it was involved in an accident - most classic F1 chassis still in competition will have been at one time or another, but where do you draw the line at weather a particular car should be destroyed or not, what happened to the Ferrari that Palletti crashed into? or the Ferrari in which Pironi smashed his legs to pieces? (was it the same chassis?? *spooky* are we back to a chassis carrying a curse??) would it be ok to have kept these (this?) in competition or even sell to a collector/museum??

Ronnies 78 - if it is still out there - should be labelled as "the last car Ronnie Peterson competed F1 in" rather than "The car in which Ronnie Peterson died" IMO.


#46 f1steveuk

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 14:05

I believe Ronnie's 78 is with a few other "crash cars" in a rather macabre collection that has been mentioned before.

#47 Flat Black 84

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 15:22

Well technically neither Dave MacDonald nor Swede Savage died "in" their cars, and one could make the case that the latter, like Ronnie, died because of poor medical attention. But the fact remains that had they not crashed in those particular cars they might have lived out normal lifespans. So if we're talking about hoodoo here, I would think it applies to all cars in which a fatal crash--death being instantaneous or delayed--occurred.

#48 The Oracle

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 15:38

Well technically neither Dave MacDonald nor Swede Savage died "in" their cars, and one could make the case that the latter, like Ronnie, died because of poor medical attention. But the fact remains that had they not crashed in those particular cars they might have lived out normal lifespans. So if we're talking about hoodoo here, I would think it applies to all cars in which a fatal crash--death being instantaneous or delayed--occurred.


Very good point there however I wonder why nothing is being made of my other point (both above and earlier in the thread) of other cars involved or that left the road killing spectators and or marshalls?

How would you feel if you saved all your hard earned to buy a classic Lotus chassis only to find out it had been involved in the 1961 Von Tripps crash?

#49 Flat Black 84

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 17:20

Very good point there however I wonder why nothing is being made of my other point (both above and earlier in the thread) of other cars involved or that left the road killing spectators and or marshalls?

How would you feel if you saved all your hard earned to buy a classic Lotus chassis only to find out it had been involved in the 1961 Von Tripps crash?


That would certainly give me pause, although I suspect I'm more sensitive to these sorts of things than most folks. Certainly more sensitive than the drivers who raced those deadly beasts back in the time of yore.

#50 kayemod

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 17:34

Maybe i'm missing the point here but I can't see Ronnie's car being pigeonholed with the likes of the Rindt and Williamson car as he was expected to survive the incident and died due to poor medical attention...


This point has been covered exhaustively on TNF, and having suffered almost identical leg injuries myself in a near fatal road crash a year or two after Ronnie's fatal one, I've taken a special interest in it, and I'd say that it's generally agreed that the Italian doctors did the best they could given the way that RP's injuries developed. Mine developed in exactly the same way, I was lucky and poor Ronnie wasn't, but the chances of survival are not at all good in those circumstances, there isn't a great deal that doctors can do.

On your point about 'death crash' cars being destroyed where spectators or non-drivers were involved, this seems to me to be quite different from a case where a driver suffers a fatal crash. I don't want to sound flippant, this is a serious matter, but wouldn't an awful lot of innocent cars get a death sentence purely as a result of some driver error, why punish the poor car, the Clark/Von Trips Monza 61 example illustrates this point perfectly, what part did Jimmy's Lotus play in the tragic events?