107 replies to this topic

[David McKinney]

As the delete button seems no longer to work....

(I was trying to post a definition but ImageShack didn't upload it as I'd planned)

Apologies

Edited by David McKinney, 02 December 2010 - 13:36.

[fnqvmuch]

Drifitng is ... the term ... now used to describe what used to be known as a powerslide.... the driver deliberately makes the back end of the car break away by applying 'excessive' power while turning the front wheels into the resultant 'slide'.

A true drift balances forward motion, with the tyres 'breaking away' and the whole car, with front and rear wheels aligned, pointing into the apex of a corner, and power applied. ... BB

so - does fangio in the eponymous film's clip of the D50 at Monaco do it a couple of times - but not the famous peugeot up pikes peak;
couldn't common or garden 4 wheel driving at the limit most resemble it - as a matter of course - whereas speedway midgets or better still bikes, embody the other?

steven

[Bauble]

Transferred from 250F Photo thread by the magic of Windows.

you don't have to go there if you feel like that, but i could use a bit more clarification ...
- in respect of this thread;

Dear Much,
Being the one who first introduced discord into harmony, I wish I could expand on the actual elements involved in a proper drift, however, talk of slip angles etc.,ect, leave me baffled.
Drifitng is a technique that went out with 'slicks', wings, active suspension, aerodynamics generally, and sadly the term is now used to describe what used to be known as a powerslide. Here of course the driver deliberately makes the back end of the car break away by applying 'excessive' power while turning the front wheels into the resultant 'slide'.

A true drift balances forward motion, with the tyres 'breaking away' and the whole car, with front and rear wheels aligned, pointing into the apex of a corner, and power applied. To be honest I truly believe that unless you are of a 'certain age' it is difficult to grasp the difference between the two techniques, but PLEASE, let no one take offence as I do not intend to imply any lack of intelligence, it is just that that people like us 'fifties' chaps knew that this was a sure sign of an ace at work. You would have to have seen the likes of Fangio, Ascari, Moss, Hawthorn et al in action to fully appreciate the skill and the spectacle of two or three cars drifting through a corner in close company.

I concur with those who feel that as well as pictures of 250F Maseratis, a discussion of the various driving styles and personalities that drove them in their heyday is warranted.

NOTE to elansprint;

If you wish to post your picture of an old Ford skidding on some mud I can advise that this is the ideal place to do it ........ if you want to be chief guest at a necktie party!
As John Wayne might have said.

Let's keep it friendly he said vehemently.

Kind regards to all.

Edited by Bauble, 02 December 2010 - 15:22.

[David McKinney]

It was with the idea of taking this topic off the 250F thread that I started a new one - pity my post backfired!

As I couldn't post the scans I'd done, I'll try and find time to laboriously re-key what I wanted to say....

(and for the BP people: split infinitives are acceptable these days )

Edited by David McKinney, 02 December 2010 - 17:37.

[paulhooft]

But where are the pictures....

Edited by paulhooft, 02 December 2010 - 17:54.

[Bauble]

Reg Parnell once wrote; "I don't know how I do these four wheel drifts." It must be something that comes naturally when driving front engined cars on skinny wheels, very fast.

Homework;

Define; Skid - slide - powerslide - drift - spin!

Teacher.

[David McKinney]

But where are the pictures....

Not many TNFers were photographing that long ago

Everything else is someone else's copyright

[David McKinney]

From Stirling Moss’s Book of Motor Sport (1955), in the chapter ‘The Art of Driving Fast’ -

Getting down to business means, above all, the business of cornering. And cornering means, perhaps more than anything else, the use of a four-wheel drift – the stylish piece of technical stroke-play which is to every racing driver what a Christiana turn is to the championship skier or a finely judged leg sweep to polished batsmen.

It is not easy to describe. I confess that until the day I was asked by Shell-Mex to make a film of it, I never really knew just what motions I did perform during a four-wheel drift. Then I was forced into careful thinking about every split-second movement which slow-motion cameroas might catch for the film record.

Point No.1 for your notes is that when taking a fast corner with a four-wheel drift, the car literally drifts in a sideways direction. The key part of a corner is the exit – so, if all your wheels are heading straight as a die when you reach this exit, the quicker you are out and away.

Assume it is a right-hand corner. Down the straight, you’re zooming at top speed. Now you brake, just a fraction, at the same time inclining the steering-wheel by an even slighter fraction, to the right. You keep the brakes on throughout this slight movement which tends to send the back of the car away into a slide; and now, instantaneously, you correct the slide by straightening your front wheels.

This is the truly crucial moment, for now the car is in drifting position with all four wheels in the same direction. Now there must be no further movement of the steering. All your preparations for drifting have been made towards the end of the straight before you get to the corner. Once you’re drifting, the slightest flick of steering will unbalance the car and put you out of your drift and into a slide, with the rear wheels slewing round.

Theough the corner, the car is moving bodily sideways and forwards at once; and all the time, you hold the drift, or sideways motion, by means of the throttle. Only now do you fully appreciate the racing advantages of perfection in four-wheel drifting, for it is now that you experience the benefits of having those four wheels lined up. In plain language, they are lined up for the great getaway - through and out of the corner, with the least possible loss of horsepower, with all four wheels sweetly pointing the path for your exit into the straight. If you do all this a mere tenth of a second faster than your opponents, and if all your cornering is just that one-tenth better, imagine your success during three solid hours of driving a 300-mile Grand Prix.

[jj2728]

Thanks for that David. My question is this, was the 4 wheel drift possible in 1960s GP cars, or let me re-phrase, I know that there were drivers MORE than capable of it, but considering that the cars were rear-engined, did the 'drift', as it were, die with the last of the front engined cars....

Edited by jj2728, 03 December 2010 - 00:32.

[onelung]

[Tim Murray]

Thanks for that David. My question is this, was the 4 wheel drift possible in 1960s GP cars, or let me re-phrase, I know that there were drivers MORE than capable of it, but considering that the cars were rear-engined, did the 'drift', as it were, die with the last of the front engined cars....

How do the experts regard this?

Chris Amon, Oulton Gold Cup 1968.

[john aston]

Possibly heresy to say so but the longest 4 wheel drifts I have seen by a very big margin were executed by Will Gollop in his 600bhp + Astra turbo and Metro 6R4 rallycross cars at Croft- 200yards plus- fantastic .

[Lee Nicolle]

4 wheel drifts are still used, just that they are smaller and less obvious as the cars have far more grip. But on big long sweeping cornere a slight oversteer stance generally becomes a 4 wheel drift but not nearly as obvious as in the old days on treaded tyres.
Generally more noticeable on modern cars with treaded tyres which still have far more grip than the old style ones.

[Arjan de Roos]

To be honest I truly believe that unless you are of a 'certain age' it is difficult to grasp the difference between the two techniques, but PLEASE, let no one take offence as I do not intend to imply any lack of intelligence, it is just that that people like us 'fifties' chaps knew that this was a sure sign of an ace at work.

Hi Bauble, I do believe that a younger generation does understand four wheel drift as they may find out today with indoor karting. No powerfull machines and no large wide corners, but the possibility to drift sideways with four wheels. But indeed in higher categories we seldom see it.

[Bauble]

How do the experts regard this?

Tim,
Is this a very cunningly worded question? Personaly I would state categorically that the Amon picture does not show a drift;

A) The front and rear wheels are not in-line, and

B) Chris is obviously turning the steering wheel to hold a slide.

The position of the hands in a drift situation would be the classic ten-past-ten position.

BUT THEN AGAIN I AM NOT CLAIMING TO BE AN EXPERT (Just a 'right knowall')

Arjan,
I have very limited and very unsuccessful experience of Karting, the only drift in sight was me drifitng further down the field and the lap chart.

As the passage quoting Stirling Moss demonstrates, drifting was not a science that could be taught, but an instinctive reaction to cornering forces in a split second time frame. Pretty much like catching a slide is instinctive.

Old dyed-in-the-wool enthusiasts like me know what a true drift is and will not be persuaded by modern interpretations. It is all the fault of the sneaky orientals corrupting the term.

However, perhaps a true 'expert' will provide an answer to Tim's question.

[Allan Lupton]

Technical point here:
Tyres generating cornering force have what is known as a slip angle, though no actual slipping is implied. Racing tyres of the "four-wheel-drift era" could/did use slip angles that were clearly visible and that's what you see in a four wheel drift.
It is important to realise that breakaway has not occurred in a f-w-d which, as I wrote elsewhere, is a stable state with more or less equal slip angles front and rear. That Kemantaski Cooper-Bristol photo shows a car where, by virtue of the combination of tyre size, suspension geometry and weight distribution, slip angles are equal. The Amon photo shows (appears to show) a car where a greater slip angle is needed at the rear, hardly surprising with the rearwards weight distribution of the car, but at least some of the extra cornering force needed at the rear is taken care of by bigger tyres.
Modern tyres, being what we used to refer to as rigid breaker tyres, use less visible slip angles but I am sure that if you study a 2010 car taking a long fast curve it would be possible to see that all the wheels had similar slip angles.
The power slide beloved of the hoolighan uses breakaway and is not stable in the same way.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 03 December 2010 - 09:19.

[Lee Nicolle]

Modern F1 cars really do not do it, they are so agressive in every respect they really do not have the time!! Though it probably still happens on the older type and logrip circuits to a very small degree.
But most control tyre open wheel classes it still happens, Formula Ford quite a lot though not nesecarily the fastest way to go. Still happens a ot in most tintop classes and ofcourse in rallying though more so ofcourse in rear drive cars. Or where the cars are set up with mostly rear drive.

[john aston]

If you are lucky enough to attend races at Cadwell Park , especially VSCC and HSCC events , you will get a perfect view of four wheel drifts if you stand on the apex of Coppice(very fast uphill LH bend after start/finish).Unusually for most race circuits you can get very close here- within 15' of cars - and I mention this as v few of the by far from many spectators at Cadwell bother to watch from this point.

[plannerpower]

I've had a quick look in my little library; I find that neither Jenks (The Racing Driver) nor Taruffi (The Technique Of Motor Racing) used the expression.

I think that, like "beauty", it's an expression of art rather than fact; ask a hundred people what "beauty" means and you will get a hundred different answers.

As Allan L said, a pneumatic tyre will generate a slip-angle; it follows that any vehicle negotiating a corner, at even a pedestrian speed, will not be "pointing ahead".

My own definition of "drift" is that awesome few seconds when a car is teetering on the brink of disaster in a high-speed corner; all four tyres are on the point of breakaway.

It matters not whether the front wheels are pointing in, out or straight-ahead; the driver has the entire complex melange of forces under control.

It's epitomised for me in those wonderful Klemantaski photographs of Fangio in the 250F behind the pits at Rouen; I have looked at these photos more times than I can count but they still make me shiver at the awesome moment that they capture.

El Chueco sits calmly whilst balancing the complex forces to which the car and he are subject.

I had a period in karts some years ago; the objective was father & son "bonding" but it was good fun, hard work and educational.

I learned that you don't set-up a kart purely for grip; with so little power available it's necessary to set-up and drive a kart at the point that I call "above the grip".

It's one of those things that's impossible to put into words; the kart operates in a slippery, non-grippy manner. There is little tyre grip/friction to hold it back and it goes very quickly.

A very skilled driver is required; even "very good" drivers don't understand the concept.

I suspect that the winners in classes for low-power racing cars (eg Vees, FFords) have worked this out whilst the rest of the field hasn't.

I think that the masters of the drift that we are discussing were doing the same thing; they understood the concept of getting "above the grip" whereas their lesser (but still very fast) competitors were "sliding".

But, in contrast to karts/Vees/etc, these blokes were doing it with heavy and powerful cars at extremely high speeds.

"Going-off" in a lesser vehicle is, at least not usually, no great thing; a "lose" in a drifting 250F at Rouen would most likely have been fatal.

[Graham Gauld]

How do the experts regard this?

Powerslide : note position of hands on steering wheel - correcting mode. Old enough to know the difference

[Ross Stonefeld]

I had a period in karts some years ago; the objective was father & son "bonding" but it was good fun, hard work and educational.

I learned that you don't set-up a kart purely for grip; with so little power available it's necessary to set-up and drive a kart at the point that I call "above the grip".

It's one of those things that's impossible to put into words; the kart operates in a slippery, non-grippy manner. There is little tyre grip/friction to hold it back and it goes very quickly.

A very skilled driver is required; even "very good" drivers don't understand the concept.

What you're describing is basically what any racing vehicle driven at the limit will feel like. It's not 'in' the track but feels like it's riding on top of it. As self alignign torque diminishes before peak tire grip, the steering starts to feel light. And a quickly driven race car doesn't spend a lot of time 'set' on any particular suspension loading, it's almost always in a transitional state. But once you realise it's supposed to feel like that, it suddenly becomes okay. A bit like driving on cold tires/tyres. Once you understand it's supposed to feel awful, you just go like hell.

[Bauble]

I am quite sure that there is no manual that describes how to initiate a true four wheel drift, you cannot be taught how to do it, it is all instinct and 'seat-of-the-pants'.
I suggest therefore that people will have their own idea of what is and what is not a 'drift'.

If not having all wheels aligned can constitute a drift to you, then I suppose you are entitled to call it so, ie Fangio at Rouen and Salvadori at Oulton Park as shown on the 250F thread. After all I do not believe it can be a point of law!! (Your Honour, the accused referred to a powerslide as a drift! I demand he be jailed for life.)

I have my own opinion, I peronally will agree to disagree, if you will.

Anyone who lives in the UK at the moment might well have experience of drifitng, up to twenty feet of the stuff.

Goodbye,


Bob.

[Arjan de Roos]

I am quite sure that there is no manual that describes how to initiate a true four wheel drift, you cannot be taught how to do it, it is all instinct and 'seat-of-the-pants'.

Well this one comes close. In fact the first and for years the only book for racing drivers to be. To my amazement (I have an old copy), it has been republished recently.

http://www.bentleypu...tor-racing.html

Anyone who lives in the UK at the moment might well have experience of drifitng, up to twenty feet of the stuff.

Make that Holland, and maybe the rest of Europe too.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
Well this one comes close.....

Good point...

Moss, the driver previously cited, considered him very intelligent. If we look at his comments in All But My Life we see he wrote:

Piero Taruffi was an example of a particularly intelligent man in motor-racing. He was never in the very first rank, but he certainly did do a great deal of motor-racing. Most people watching motor-racing don't appreciate Taruffi's kind of intelligence...

He was intelligent, he always knew the circuit to an inch, he knew the machinery - after all, he was an engineer - and he understood what being in condition is worth. I reckon Taruffi must have been one of the strongest men in motor-racing.....

I would be unhappy, I would think it farcical, if somebody less intelligent than Taruffi had won the last-ever Mille Miglia, just by sticking his foot in it and going in over his head.

So if he was as lucid as someone so intelligent should be, his explanation would certainly bear reading. He also came from the right era!

Edited by Ray Bell, 06 December 2010 - 12:08.

[fnqvmuch]

Moss, the driver previously cited, ...

... mentions filming something for 'Shell-Mex' touching on the subject - would anyone know anything more of that?
( found Round the Ring from Shell: Lang, Neubauer and a W125 narrated by G. Hill. I'm good for now ...)

Edited by fnqvmuch, 06 December 2010 - 15:14.

[driverider]

I am quite sure that there is no manual that describes how to initiate a true four wheel drift, you cannot be taught how to do it, it is all instinct and 'seat-of-the-pants'.
I suggest therefore that people will have their own idea of what is and what is not a 'drift'.

If not having all wheels aligned can constitute a drift to you, then I suppose you are entitled to call it so, ie Fangio at Rouen and Salvadori at Oulton Park as shown on the 250F thread. After all I do not believe it can be a point of law!! (Your Honour, the accused referred to a powerslide as a drift! I demand he be jailed for life.)

I have my own opinion, I peronally will agree to disagree, if you will.

Anyone who lives in the UK at the moment might well have experience of drifitng, up to twenty feet of the stuff.

Goodbye,


Bob.

You are right - we are all entitled to our opinion!

This particular flurry of discussion came from your emotional response - "That is NOT a 'drift'!!!" - to my innocuous observation in admirance of the balance of the 250F as Salvadori went in to Lodge
My observation was based on experience of racing and drifting old GP cars and I fully accept that it is only my opinion.

read SSM's account to gain a little more understanding and then you will understand why some people would consider Salvadori as drifting - or talk to people who race these cars and can clearly drift a GP car - or better still get in a go-kart and take it from understeer, through to oversteer - soewhere in that transition you should be able to start sensing drift - then start extending the drift and watch the stopwatch.
You will find that the stopwatch doesnt have 'an opinion' - and it doesnt lie. - having done that you might understand my observation


Delighted to agree to disagree

[Bauble]

You are right - we are all entitled to our opinion!

This particular flurry of discussion came from your emotional response - "That is NOT a 'drift'!!!" - to my innocuous observation in admirance of the balance of the 250F as Salvadori went in to Lodge
My observation was based on experience of racing and drifting old GP cars and I fully accept that it is only my opinion.

read SSM's account to gain a little more understanding and then you will understand why some people would consider Salvadori as drifting - or talk to people who race these cars and can clearly drift a GP car - or better still get in a go-kart and take it from understeer, through to oversteer - soewhere in that transition you should be able to start sensing drift - then start extending the drift and watch the stopwatch.
You will find that the stopwatch doesnt have 'an opinion' - and it doesnt lie. - having done that you might understand my observation


Delighted to agree to disagree

Nice to disagree with you.

To quote Pontius Pilate; "What I have written, I have written." I think I have that right, although I was not there when he said it.

[driverider]

Nice to disagree with you.

To quote Pontius Pilate; "What I have written, I have written." I think I have that right, although I was not there when he said it.

Pontious Pilate - how apt - its funny but you struck me as someone who would have been there when he said it - if he ever did.

[Bauble]

Pontious Pilate - how apt - its funny but you struck me as someone who would have been there when he said it - if he ever did.

Sadly I was on my tea break when he spoke, otherwise ...........!

It is also interesting to read Pontius's monograph on the perfect four wheel drift on which subject he was regarded as something of an expert, he is very positive that if one's elbow is in the air you are not drifting.

Bobus The Centurion.

[Jones Foyer]

From Stirling Moss’s Book of Motor Sport (1955), in the chapter ‘The Art of Driving Fast’ -

[i]
Assume it is a right-hand corner. Down the straight, you’re zooming at top speed. Now you brake, just a fraction, at the same time inclining the steering-wheel by an even slighter fraction, to the right. You keep the brakes on throughout this slight movement which tends to send the back of the car away into a slide; and now, instantaneously, you correct the slide by straightening your front wheels.

This is the truly crucial moment, for now the car is in drifting position with all four wheels in the same direction. Now there must be no further movement of the steering. All your preparations for drifting have been made towards the end of the straight before you get to the corner. Once you’re drifting, the slightest flick of steering will unbalance the car and put you out of your drift and into a slide, with the rear wheels slewing round.

Theough the corner, the car is moving bodily sideways and forwards at once; and all the time, you hold the drift, or sideways motion, by means of the throttle.

Interesting, I never knew of the distinction, but it sounds like four wheel drifting does not involve countersteering.

[Ross Stonefeld]

That will have to be the civilian definition. Perfectly straight front wheels while cornering will equal a certain slip angle, but at angles below and above that trust me when I say all four tires are definitely sliding. Even to equal amounts front-rear.

[Bauble]

Interesting, I never knew of the distinction, but it sounds like four wheel drifting does not involve countersteering.

You have to be a REAL expert to know your slide from your drift.

[bradbury west]

I like to think the second Galaxie driver has just about got it right at Goodwood a couple of years ago.



Photos copyright Roger Lund
Roger Lund

[driverider]

Sadly I was on my tea break when he spoke, otherwise ...........!

It is also interesting to read Pontius's monograph on the perfect four wheel drift on which subject he was regarded as something of an expert, he is very positive that if one's elbow is in the air you are not drifting.

Bobus The Centurion.

Perhaps it would have helped if you jumped in an old Le Mans Maserti and did a few laps with me but I can see you are not for turning

[onelung]

Allan Lupton's remarks in post #16 reminded me of something over which I puzzled quite some years ago... viz. why was it that "small" cars were seemingly in need of power steering when in earlier days it had not been required?
Answer - or so it seems to me .. the greater self aligning torque (this translates to "cornering power") of the (then) more modern radial ply tyres. To displace the tyre from the "straight ahead" position took more arm power. Comments welcome ...

Edited by onelung, 07 December 2010 - 11:13.

[Ray Bell]

Torque steer, yes, a big part of it...

But I wonder if caster angles contribute to the need as well?

While pondering that, I'll say that Roger's great photos above are somewhat compelling evidence that it can be done in a Yank Tank.

[Bloggsworth]

People are counting the number of angels on pin-heads. Any slide in which all 4 wheels are sliding, and the car is proceeding through the corner under the complete control of the driver, is by definition, a 4 wheel drift. Contributors seem to have decide that it is only a 4WD if all 4 wheels are perfectly aligned, this is not so - it may well be a perfect four wheel drift, but then, not all dogs are Dalmations.

Interestingly a car that slides all 4 wheels equally at all times can be a very trepidatious experience when you have just overstepped the mark, a bit like standing on tiptoe on the Cresta Run. The only thing to do is nothing; nothing that is, but wait till tthe slide stops of its own accord, and preferably before you have fallen off the road; the worse thing you can do is steer/brake/lift off, any or all three will see you straight to the scene of the accident.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 07 December 2010 - 14:13.

[Bloggsworth]

Torque steer, yes, a big part of it...

But I wonder if caster angles contribute to the need as well?

While pondering that, I'll say that Roger's great photos above are somewhat compelling evidence that it can be done in a Yank Tank.

Depends how much sugar you put on it...

Edited by Bloggsworth, 07 December 2010 - 14:14.

[Bauble]

. Any slide in which all 4 wheels are sliding, and the car is proceeding through the corner under the complete control of the driver, is by definition, a 4 wheel drift. Contributors seem to have decide that it is only a 4WD if all 4 wheels are perfectly aligned, this is not so -

Well done blogs, that's what we have been missing an actual definition, where can we find it?

I studied my copy of Jenk's 'Racing Driver' last night and could not see any reference to a four wheel drift atall! did I miss it, as surely Jenks of all people would have had a view?

[Sharman]

Reg Parnell once wrote; "I don't know how I do these four wheel drifts." It must be something that comes naturally when driving front engined cars on skinny wheels, very fast.

Homework;

Define; Skid - slide - powerslide - drift - spin!

Teacher.

1) Skid------unintentional loss of traction by granny
2)Slide-------unintentional loss of traction by one of us
3)Powerslide---intentional loss of traction by one of us
4)Drift---------intentional loss of traction by a competent one of us
5)Spin-----unintentional result of 3

[Marc Sproule]

One that went somewhat awry........

http://www.flickr.co...57623324227456/

[Sharman]

Total agreement-some dogs are Dalmatians

[David McKinney]

People are counting the number of angels on pin-heads. Any slide in which all 4 wheels are sliding, and the car is proceeding through the corner under the complete control of the driver, is by definition, a 4 wheel drift. Contributors seem to have decide that it is only a 4WD if all 4 wheels are perfectly aligned, this is not so - it may well be a perfect four wheel drift, but then, not all dogs are Dalmations.

Your first instance is what I would call a four-wheel slide, a powerslide, or a controlled slide
You yourself define a "perfect four-wheel drift" - job done

[Bauble]

1) Skid------unintentional loss of traction by granny
2)Slide-------unintentional loss of traction by one of us
3)Powerslide---intentional loss of traction by one of us
4)Drift---------intentional loss of traction by a competent one of us
5)Spin-----unintentional result of 3

Well done young Sharman. Full marks - move to the head of the class - 5/5*

[P.Dron]

I drift.
You powerslide.
Oh dear, he's spun.

However,

"There is no clearly defined borderline between the so-called four-wheel drift and a proper slide or skid. In racing parlance, however, a car is usually said to be drifting when its front wheels are still more or less pointed in the direction of the bend to be taken, or, in marginal cases, are straight."

Paul Frere, Competition Driving

I am not sure what he meant by "marginal cases."

[Bloggsworth]

I drift.
You powerslide.
Oh dear, he's spun.

However,

"There is no clearly defined borderline between the so-called four-wheel drift and a proper slide or skid. In racing parlance, however, a car is usually said to be drifting when its front wheels are still more or less pointed in the direction of the bend to be taken, or, in marginal cases, are straight."

Paul Frere, Competition Driving

I am not sure what he meant by "marginal cases."

Wot I said, but not in French/Walloon/Flemish/or whatever the estimable Paul F spoke (Probably all 3 plus English). I still have that book, one of the few that haven't been purloined over the years.

[onelung]

"...when its front wheels are still more or less pointed in the direction of the bend to be taken, or, in marginal cases, are straight."

Beautifully put - and I bet M. Frère wasn't a wearer of the dreaded anorak.

[Bloggsworth]

Or he didn't write about it because he couldn't put it into words?

Wash your mouth out dear boy...

[cheapracer]

Technical point here:
Tyres generating cornering force have what is known as a slip angle, though no actual slipping is implied. Racing tyres of the "four-wheel-drift era" could/did use slip angles that were clearly visible and that's what you see in a four wheel drift.

Modern tyres, being what we used to refer to as rigid breaker tyres, use less visible slip angles but I am sure that if you study a 2010 car taking a long fast curve it would be possible to see that all the wheels had similar slip angles.

Indeed - any vehicle that can understeer or oversteer can also do both at the same time.

Hard to imagine and I'm sure some romance involved that any of you think that 4 wheel drifting is relevant to just one era, maybe you should update your B&W TV's from that era as well so you can see clearer whats going on?

I am quite sure that there is no manual that describes how to initiate a true four wheel drift, you cannot be taught how to do it, it is all instinct and 'seat-of-the-pants'.

I suggest therefore that people will have their own idea of what is and what is not a 'drift'.

As you can induce understeer, as you can induce oversteer, as you can induce both simultaneously.

It's defined as lateral movement relevant to the intended arc traveled.

[driverider]

Maybe you forgot that Jenks was heavily into three-wheel drifting so maybe for him whatever drifted the way the rider wanted was a drift regardless of the number of wheels and how they looked and it was so common he saw it as part of basic racecraft, daily bread and ride. Or he didn't write about it because he couldn't put it into words?

gets a bit more difficult on two wheels!!

used to be that a drift on two wheels was called a 'highside'

an art today though with rubber and slipper clutches

as someone said somewhere on here earlier I think you need to 'do it' to understand it!