177 replies to this topic

[Lee Nicolle]

On the 64-65 Falcon thread there is plenty of references to the Argentinian Falcons still using the 60s engine and basic 60s model US Falcons.
And references to other long lasting models and engine designs.
It would be interesting to find out hat designs have lived over the decades.
The VW beetle, the same basic [though much improved] design over 50 plus years. The Argentinian Falcons that went for around 30 years. The Dodge Dart, Valiant platform that seemed to go forever with the slant 6 and it seems the Simcca Veddette and its updates with the V8 60 sidevalve updated to OHV.
Plus ofcourse the 3 stalwart engines of V8 in motorsport. The small block Chev, The Ford Windsor and the LA Chrysler v8 and then ofcourse the Buick V8 which is still around in Range Rovers.
I know that there is others also so lets here about these dinosaurs of the automotive age.

[maoricar]

On the 64-65 Falcon thread there is plenty of references to the Argentinian Falcons still using the 60s engine and basic 60s model US Falcons.
And references to other long lasting models and engine designs.
It would be interesting to find out hat designs have lived over the decades.
The VW beetle, the same basic [though much improved] design over 50 plus years. The Argentinian Falcons that went for around 30 years. The Dodge Dart, Valiant platform that seemed to go forever with the slant 6 and it seems the Simcca Veddette and its updates with the V8 60 sidevalve updated to OHV.
Plus ofcourse the 3 stalwart engines of V8 in motorsport. The small block Chev, The Ford Windsor and the LA Chrysler v8 and then ofcourse the Buick V8 which is still around in Range Rovers.
I know that there is others also so lets here about these dinosaurs of the automotive age.

I would guess that the Austin 7 might have a claim to fame here...1920's through the 1960's in open competition. Of course if you include Historic (type) events, they are still with us.
I'm sure that many of our UK based friends can be more specific with details

[john aston]

Lotus/Caterham Seven - 50 plus and still winning races.

[D-Type]

The AC 6-cylinder engine was first produced in the mid-1920's and was still around in the early 1960's - admittedly with some development over the years.

Ford Model T - 1908 to 1927

[uechtel]

Hindustan Ambassador...

[Glengavel]

These seem rather obvious, so perhaps I'm missing the point, but hey-ho:

Jaguar XK engine - 1949-1992
BMC A-series engine - 1951-2000

[arttidesco]

Fiat 124 based Жигули (Zhiguli)/Lada 1970 to present day 40 years and counting 18.5 million examples sold.

[Allan Lupton]

The AC 6-cylinder engine was first produced in the mid-1920's and was still around in the early 1960's - admittedly with some development over the years.

Ford Model T - 1908 to 1927

Yes, the AC was designed in 1919, on sale in 1920 and still made in 1963.
Oh, and don't forget that the 40/50 Rolls-Royce (1907-1926 including Springfield-made cars) was an almost exact contemporary of the Model T throughout!

[D-Type]

Fiat 124 based Жигули (Zhiguli)/Lada 1970 to present day 40 years and counting 18.5 million examples sold.

Can we add the 124 to that or was the change from 124 to Lada too radical? If I remember correctly they beefed up the body and suspension and used a different, older, simpler, engine for the Lada

Edited by D-Type, 14 December 2010 - 10:10.

[Lee Nicolle]

Goes to show that many manufacturers have got a very long life from some engines. The BMC A series seems to be the longest at 49 years then the SB Chev which has been around since 55 and I believe only stopped in 2003. 48 years . Though still advailable new ex GM for aftermarket in many specs.The big block has been around from 63 and was current until last year. 46 years.Also advailable new ex GM in many formats.
To be honest I know nothing about the AC engine and would be interested to know more.
The Hindustan Ambassador, is that the car based on the Morris Isis?

[David McKinney]

What was the BMC A-Series engine in before the Morris Minor 1000 and Austin A35 (both 1956)?

[gkennedy]

What was the BMC A-Series engine in before the Morris Minor 1000 and Austin A35 (both 1956)?

Austin A30, 1951

[Sharman]

What was the BMC A-Series engine in before the Morris Minor 1000 and Austin A35 (both 1956)?

Minor S11 and A30 starting 1952
Mr Kennedy is correct A30 was 1951 in 803 cc form as was S11 Minor

Edited by Sharman, 14 December 2010 - 11:34.

[Ray Bell]

Austin A30 and Morris Minor...

The Minor came out originally in 1948 with a 900+cc side-valve engine, the 803cc A30 engine went into it about 1953. I don't think the A-series was around prior to 1952 if not 1953. It didn't exist in production (which is what this thread is about - scotching any suggestion of the Austin 7 engine) in 1951.

*edit* - I stand corrected... and I'm too slow getting my post in!

Two good candidates are still to be added to the list...

The Ford V8 from 1932, it was still in production at SIMCA at least into the seventies. SIMCA had a military contract for a vehicle using these. Their production of the smaller Ford V8 went from about 1938 to 1963 or so in France, then it was sent to South America and by 1966 had the Ardun conversion on it. Production ceased about 1970.

And then there's the side-valve six from Chrysler. This is the 23.5" version, which powered Plymouth from 1933 IIRC. It was also used in many military applications and built through until at least the seventies. At one time during WW2 they coupled five of these to power a tank, unfortunately photos still exist of the setup.

Lee, the Hindustan Ambassador was based on a 1956 Morris Oxford and used the B-series BMC engine. It only ceased production a few years ago, so if it was still the B-series in it there would be a candidate there... circa 1953 in Morris Oxford and Austin Cambridge to just a few years ago (find out from Wikipedia if you like).

Edited by Ray Bell, 14 December 2010 - 11:38.

[Ray Bell]

And if someone's in the mood for checking another one...

How about the Fiat Millecento engine? It was around before the War, still in production at least in the sixties in essentially the same form.

[arttidesco]

Can we add the 124 to that or was the change from 124 to Lada too radical? If I remember correctly they beefed up the body and suspension and used a different, older, simpler, engine for the Lada

If you'd like to add four more years why not, all the Жигули (Zhiguli) engines were actually unique to the Lada vehicles developed for 93 octane fuel. apart from the Mazda based rotary used in some secret service versions of course.

Edited by arttidesco, 14 December 2010 - 12:45.

[David McKinney]

I thought the BMC A-Type engine was the 948cc OHV design first used in 1956

How can the 803cc A30 engine be called a BMC A-Type when BMC didn't exist in 1951?

[Terry Walker]

Rolls-Royce / Bentley alloy V8 - introduced 1959, still in production in the current big Bentleys. It went through a lot of development over the years of course - from 195 bhp to some 550 bhp - and last year, for the first time, had a block redesign for 21st century engineering and production technology. It's still a pushrod, still alloy block, wet sleeve, retains the bore and stroke and cylinder bore spacing, other design features of the original - rather the way the BMC A-series had been re-engineered towards the end of its life.

I'm not sure how much survives of the original Australian Falcon six - 1960 on - in the current version, which is now sohc instead of pushrod.

[bradbury west]

I always understood that the Hindustan Ambassadors were powered by something like an Isuzu 1800 engine for the later years of their lives as OE. BTW I saw very few of them when I was in India rcently, hardly a dozen, and then they seemed to be government etc use.
Roger Lund

[lanciaman]

The Fiat 128 was reborn as (gulp) The Yugo.

[Glengavel]

I thought the BMC A-Type engine was the 948cc OHV design first used in 1956

How can the 803cc A30 engine be called a BMC A-Type when BMC didn't exist in 1951?

I was going to blame lazy research on my part (aka "looking up Wikipedia"). But the W*k*p*d** article "BMC A-Series" states that the engine was announced in 1951 and first used in 1952, which is also the year BMC was formed. However, the A30 was also announced in 1951, but didn't appear until 1952.

So the A-Series was only in production for 48 years instead of 49! I wish I (in production for almost 51 years) could knock a year off as easily...

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
I thought the BMC A-Type engine was the 948cc OHV design first used in 1956

How can the 803cc A30 engine be called a BMC A-Type when BMC didn't exist in 1951?

That is a good point...

But we do seem to have found a chink in your knowledge for a change. So according to Glengavel I was right in my dating of the early A-series cars. When BMC was formed, the Morris engines were largely given the heave-ho, though it took a little while for the XPAG to be done away with altogether.

It was seen that the Austin designs, all broadly based on the the 6-cyl truck engine of the late thirties and its principles, were superior and/or easier to produce. The first scaled down version of the 4-cyl version of that 6-cyl truck engine was the A40, which did have its problems, then came the 803cc A-series for the A30. By 1954 there was a slightly larger engine than the A40 engine, which was then phased out (and the tooling sold to Nissan?) and that was the B-series. An oddity among all of these was the new C-series, while the 4-cyl version of the old truck engine soldiered on somewhere between the B-series and the C-series (with a capacity of about 2.2 and 2.6 litres) for a few years.

So the labelling of the engines as A-, B- and C-series would have been done from their inception, giving them the 'BMC' moniker might well be a public thing rather than corporate.

And while the C-series had a fair life in the Healey 3000s, it was partially replaced in sedan use by a much older engine... right, Terry?

It would be interesting to know how long those types of engines built by Rolls-Royce were made for their various military applications. I'm sure they were pre-war designs and they were surely still built in the seventies.

[tyrrellp346wheels]

The Rover V8. 1961 - 2006.

Edited by tyrrellp346wheels, 14 December 2010 - 15:01.

[Stephen W]

The Rover V8. 1961 - 2006.

And before hat it was a Buick?

[alansart]

Can we add the 124 to that or was the change from 124 to Lada too radical? If I remember correctly they beefed up the body and suspension and used a different, older, simpler, engine for the Lada

The first car I owned was a 124. It actually wasn't that bad, although some of the other road users between Hitchin and Ampthill wouldn't agree with me. I'm not surprised Lada got rid of the rear disc brakes - the Fiat ones siezed up all the time

[RA Historian]

And before that it was a Buick?

Close. The engine was introduced by GM in 1961 for the Buick-Oldsmobile-Pontiac lines. A number of years later the design was sold to Rover. But it did have the long life mentioned.

[Sharman]

I thought the BMC A-Type engine was the 948cc OHV design first used in 1956

How can the 803cc A30 engine be called a BMC A-Type when BMC didn't exist in 1951?

May I quote Graham Robson
"Interviews with old Austin and BMC employees (of whom Longbridge designer Eric Bareham provides the most detailed information) suggests that work began on rationalising the engine line up as soon as the BMC merger was proposed--------. This is what was proposed,
a) THE AUSTIN A-Series engine newly launched for the A30 in 1951"

This indicates that the nomenclature A-Series existed even before the merger was proposed. So 1951 is correct.

Edited by Sharman, 14 December 2010 - 17:00.

[RStock]

The Dodge Dart, Valiant platform that seemed to go forever with the slant 6 and it seems the Simcca Veddette and its updates with the V8 60 sidevalve updated to OHV.
Plus ofcourse the 3 stalwart engines of V8 in motorsport. The small block Chev, The Ford Windsor and the LA Chrysler v8 and then ofcourse the Buick V8 which is still around in Range Rovers.
I know that there is others also so lets here about these dinosaurs of the automotive age.

We used to race a Dodge slant six motor, so it will always have a special place in my heart.

I never really considered the Ford Windsor as a racing engine. I know it's been used but I thought the Cleveland was more of a racing engine.

I think it would be hard to beat the small block chevy for length and range of use, at least here in the US.

Edited by REDARMYSOJA, 14 December 2010 - 17:41.

[D-Type]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Offy in its various evolutions. I won't elaborate because I don't know enough enough of the story

[David Birchall]

I am also surprised nobody has mentioned the Porsche aircooled flat six. Introduced in 1963 and produced until the late nineties it may not have been in production as long as some engines mentioned but did ANY other engine have such a successful racing career? Plus the basic design of the 911 is arguably still produced.

Edited by David Birchall, 14 December 2010 - 18:24.

[Rob G]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Offy in its various evolutions.

Or, for that matter, the Cosworth DFV.

The Checker Marathon, ubiquitous on New York City streets as taxicabs but also sold in small numbers to the general public, was built from 1961 to 1982 and barely changed throughout its lifetime.

[ray b]

Goes to show that many manufacturers have got a very long life from some engines. The BMC A series seems to be the longest at 49 years then the SB Chev which has been around since 55 and I believe only stopped in 2003. 48 years . Though still advailable new ex GM for aftermarket in many specs.The big block has been around from 63 and was current until last year. 46 years.Also advailable new ex GM in many formats.
To be honest I know nothing about the AC engine and would be interested to know more.
The Hindustan Ambassador, is that the car based on the Morris Isis?

chevy big block started as a truck motor
first car use was the 348ci in 58

[vintagecon]

Fiat 124 based Жигули (Zhiguli)/Lada 1970 to present day 40 years and counting 18.5 million examples sold.

And with Fiat 124 coupe/spider in 1966 came the Lampredi Twin Cam engine that lived well into the 90:s and won 10 World Rally manufacturer championships in Fiat 131, Lancia 037, Lancia Delta incl. the S4 group B.

[RStock]

chevy big block started as a truck motor
first car use was the 348ci in 58

I believe they debuted in both cars and trucks in '58.

[bradbury west]

A very junior contender would be the old Ford sidevalve from 1933, at 933cc through the later 1172cc up to around 1962 when thy had run out the old Anglia 3 box bodies with the sv as the Popular.
Roger Lund

[Lee Nicolle]

Rolls-Royce / Bentley alloy V8 - introduced 1959, still in production in the current big Bentleys. It went through a lot of development over the years of course - from 195 bhp to some 550 bhp - and last year, for the first time, had a block redesign for 21st century engineering and production technology. It's still a pushrod, still alloy block, wet sleeve, retains the bore and stroke and cylinder bore spacing, other design features of the original - rather the way the BMC A-series had been re-engineered towards the end of its life.

I'm not sure how much survives of the original Australian Falcon six - 1960 on - in the current version, which is now sohc instead of pushrod.

Falcon 6 is virtually a different engine, really 4 different engines based on each other. Original cast manifold version [like the Argentinian version] then the crossflow which is much the same engine with a crossflow head then the SOHC 3.9 4.0 which still use the same basic block but with a OHC head though went metric in AU2 so not much interchanges anymore whic evolved into the DOHC version used currently.
Very basic infrastructure is there on the bottom end, bore centres are the same, flywheel bolt pattern is the same [as is V8s] but metric bolts and sump may interchange [I am not sure of that]

[Lee Nicolle]

We used to race a Dodge slant six motor, so it will always have a special place in my heart.

I never really considered the Ford Windsor as a racing engine. I know it's been used but I thought the Cleveland was more of a racing engine.

I think it would be hard to beat the small block chevy for length and range of use, at least here in the US.

Windsor where is all the development has been done for last 30 years. Clevo/ M engine has not been made since early 80s and is not a great engine, goes well but poor oiling and far too big.
SBC is unbeatable as a basic design for racing.

[Lee Nicolle]

chevy big block started as a truck motor
first car use was the 348ci in 58

The 348 409 engines were a fair bit different engine to the 396 427 454 style engines. How much I do not know but externally they are quite different. I dont think much interchanges? Who knows about them.

[Jesper O. Hansen]

The Citroën 2CV (1949-1990), running as a prototype before WW2.

Jesper

[elansprint72]

Rolls-Royce / Bentley alloy V8 - introduced 1959, still in production in the current big Bentleys. It went through a lot of development over the years of course - from 195 bhp to some 550 bhp - and last year, for the first time, had a block redesign for 21st century engineering and production technology. It's still a pushrod, still alloy block, wet sleeve, retains the bore and stroke and cylinder bore spacing, other design features of the original - rather the way the BMC A-series had been re-engineered towards the end of its life.

Quite so; however the current L410HT is some way divorced from the original concept(!). Perhaps the most fascinating engineering change is the adoption of cylinder deactivation, which allows the use of only four cylinders, as required. This is a particularly clever piece of packaging, utilising empty space within the engines "central valley" to house the solenoid valves. The hydraulically latched "collapsing tappets" are pretty clever too.

[elansprint72]

Rolls-Royce / Bentley alloy V8 - introduced 1959, still in production in the current big Bentleys. It went through a lot of development over the years of course - from 195 bhp to some 550 bhp - and last year, for the first time, had a block redesign for 21st century engineering and production technology. It's still a pushrod, still alloy block, wet sleeve, retains the bore and stroke and cylinder bore spacing, other design features of the original - rather the way the BMC A-series had been re-engineered towards the end of its life.

Quite so; however the current L410HT is some way divorced from the original concept(!). Perhaps the most fascinating engineering change is the adoption of cylinder deactivation, which allows the use of only four cylinders, as required. This is a particularly clever piece of packaging, utilising empty space within the engines "central valley" to house the solenoid valves. The hydraulically latched "collapsing tappets" are pretty clever too.

[RStock]

Windsor where is all the development has been done for last 30 years. Clevo/ M engine has not been made since early 80s and is not a great engine, goes well but poor oiling and far too big.

I was refering specifically to the 351 motors as the Cleveland was originally intended as a performance motor. It did have it's faults but the heads were far superior to the Windsor, hence the "Clevors"

SBC is unbeatable as a basic design for racing.

Couldn't agree more. With the availability of performance parts both new and used, it's also the cheapest.

[SPBHM]

the Volkswagen flat 4 aircooled was made and sold in a car until 2005 here in Brazil (the engine production started in the 1930s), the VW type 2 is still being sold, in a mix of the first gen (1950), the second gen (1968) and with some evolutions, currently with a more modern engine.

[Amphicar]

How about the Morgan 4/4?

[Allan Lupton]

How about the Morgan 4/4?

We are talking engines not cars.
Morgan 4/4 has had Coventry Climax, Standard, Ford and Fiat engines, some of them of different sizes of the same make, and I can't remember what's in them now.

Edited to say: sorry, but the title of this thread seems to have changed since yesterday and now does include cars.
Much more difficult to define a car - e.g. is the large car called a VW Polo in current production related to the small original Polo in anything except the name?

Edited by Allan Lupton, 14 December 2010 - 23:32.

[D-Type]

Nevertheless you're probably right about the 4/4. With that many different engines about all that continued was the name. And even that's doubtful. Didn't the 4/4 become the Plus 4 when they fitted the Vanguard/ TR2 engine and then get reintroduced with a Ford Ten engine alongside the Plus 4?

Which raises the question: how long did the Standard Vanguard/ Triumph TR/ Ferguson tractor engine last?

[Garagiste]

Much more difficult to define a car - e.g. is the large car called a VW Polo in current production related to the small original Polo in anything except the name?

Indeed, with that example I'd say no, but it's much easier to trace a common theme through say, the Cortina Mk1 - 5.
The Mini clearly qualifies, virtually unchanged shell for 40 years.

[Paul Newby]

I can’t believe that nobody has mentioned the Alfa Romeo “Nord” twin cam engine. It had a 40 year life from 1954 to 1994.

It was first used in 1290cc form in the Giulietta Sprint and last used in 1962cc “Twin Spark” engine in the 155 and 164.

Of course it had a multitude of use in motorsport, especially in GTA (twin spark) guise. The later Autodelta 8v and 16v (narrow valve angle) engines are a different family of engines – there are no interchangeable parts with the Nord engine.

[fbarrett]

Surprised no one has yet mentioned the Porsche 911. Yes, it has been developed more than a tad since 1963, but it's the same basic overall design, and few if any cars have been so competitive and successful, both in the market place and on the track, for so long.

Frank

[David Birchall]

I am also surprised nobody has mentioned the Porsche aircooled flat six. Introduced in 1963 and produced until the late nineties it may not have been in production as long as some engines mentioned but did ANY other engine have such a successful racing career? Plus the basic design of the 911 is arguably still produced.

I tried Frank but this lot are locked on to cast iron lumps for the most part - something dry sumped, magnesium crankcased, low c of g, with an unequaled competition record aint getting through...