177 replies to this topic

[Terry Walker]

Rolls-Royce Corniche Convertible.

Introduced 1966 as the Silver Shadow Convertible (and the first R-R to be designated a Convertible by Crewe rather than a drophead) it was rebranded Corniche in 1971, and went through to 1996. It had detail changes to styling - impact bumpers mainly - a new front suspension design in 1977, a revised rear suspension some time in the 80s, and of course endless detail revisions.

The Silver Shadow design itself lasted about the same time, if you regard the Spirit of 1980 as a major restyle, which it was. Same platform as the last Shadow, lower wider body, even the same dashboard at first. 1965-1997. Not a bad trot for one basic design. The Seraph of 1997 was pretty much a new platform as well as a new body.

As an aside, a guy in the UK actually sprinted a heavily race-modded Bentley Turbo . . . and if you can believe Wikipedia, the Bradford twin engine was sidevalve to the end.

Edited by Terry Walker, 23 December 2010 - 09:22.

[Marticelli]

. . and if you can believe Wikipedia, the Bradford twin engine was sidevalve to the end.

Why is everybody knocking Wikipedia all of a sudden..? It is by now what it was always intended to be, the peoples' free on-line encyclopaedia, and it offers a fast and usually accurate description in readily accessible language. If it has the odd wrong fact, don't despair, write to the moderator with a comment about the apparent error and it is usually fixed and quickly.

Its a bit like the invention of the telephone. Alexander Graham Bell had to persuade a friend to have one of his new fangled devices before he could call someone up for a chat. As the telephone was more widely adopted and networks started to join up worldwide, it became more and more universal and hence useful. Its the same with Wikipedia. There is hardly a subject that doesn't get a mention on it, and the longer something is on it, the better the data is, as a general rule.

All the stuff about willful misinformation is mostly fantasy or relates to politically sensitive stuff where opinions differ widely depending on one's point of view... Most motorsport related things are informative and accurate and TNFrs are probably in a better position than most to correct any wrongs or to embellish entries that are rather lacking in detail...

Here endeth the sermon...

Marticelli

[arttidesco]

While researching my 'La motte de beurre blog' I learned that the Renault 4CV's second incarnation 17 hp 760 cc Ventoux motor was built from 1950 - 1984 with numerous upgrades and then carried on being supplied in various guises in South American Willys and Ford models all the way through to 1996 by which time the Ventoux had grown to 1600cc can anyone confirm this is correct ?

As for Wiki it's a great place to start - I take my hat off to anyone who has figured out how to make a contribution, I struggled to make a change about an incorrectly identified vehicle for days, turns out the museum in which said vehicle was on display had the vehicle incorrectly identified too !

[Robin Fairservice]

Presumably it went to overhead valves at some time?

When did that happen, and was the basic engine changed at that time?

The production Jowett twin never went to overhead valves, but the CD model engine, that never went into production, had an inlet over exhaust arrangement. In 1949 there were some aspects of the engine that were revised.

[Odseybod]

Don't think anyone's yet mentioned the Citroen four-cylinder engine that first appeared in the second generation Traction in 1936 and continued into the DS and throughout the CX era, which ended in 1991 - not a bad 55-year run, during which it evolved from a petite 1628 cc to 2500cc with an intercooled turbo. I think we have to ignore the original 1934 Traction 1302 cc engine, which seems to be a bit too different to count.

[Ray Bell]

I didn't think the CX engine was related to the Light 15/ID/DS engine at all...

But I've never looked all that closely. However, the fact that it was an east-west arrangement seems to me to go against it, then there's the valve arrangement, I'm pretty sure the Light 15 was a fairly conventional pushrod ohv engine while at some time they went to Peugeot-style hemi chambers and inclined valves.

[Ray Bell]

I didn't think the CX engine was related to the Light 15/ID/DS engine at all...

But I've never looked all that closely. However, the fact that it was an east-west arrangement seems to me to go against it, then there's the valve arrangement, I'm pretty sure the Light 15 was a fairly conventional pushrod ohv engine while at some time they went to Peugeot-style hemi chambers and inclined valves.

[Terry Walker]

I'm not knocking Wikipedia, really. It's the first place I look because it's easy to use. But you can't be really sure when you're looking up an unfamiliar subject how reliable the original author is. The Jowett article looked like it was written by a guy who seemed like an expert, probably a Jowett Club guy and an real enthusiast. But caution is always needed when shuffling around the Internet. My stuff included!

I do know about Silver Shadows, though!

Edited by Terry Walker, 23 December 2010 - 13:16.

[arttidesco]

I do know about Silver Shadows, though!

You like dancing in the moon light ?

[Tim Murray]

... to this?

Moonlight Shadow - Mike Oldfield with Maggie Reilly

[Odseybod]

I didn't think the CX engine was related to the Light 15/ID/DS engine at all...

But I've never looked all that closely. However, the fact that it was an east-west arrangement seems to me to go against it, then there's the valve arrangement, I'm pretty sure the Light 15 was a fairly conventional pushrod ohv engine while at some time they went to Peugeot-style hemi chambers and inclined valves.

Ray, true about the east-west arrangement vs north-south but despite that, it's the same engines - 1985 cc at CX launch (as used in the later DSsssss), later joined by a 2347cc version as first seen in the DS23. The bigger enginer later grew to 2500 cc, which the CX kept until the end of production, while the smaller version was replaced by Peugeot's Douvrin unit when the Series 2 CX arrived. Had three of the lovely creatures (so long as someone else was spannering and had the right tools/knowledge).

[Tony Matthews]

http://www.morgan3wh...co.uk/home.html

I wasn't sure where to post this, don't have time to start a new thread, but I just wanted to point to this!

[D-Type]

http://www.morgan3wh...co.uk/home.html

I wasn't sure where to post this, don't have time to start a new thread, but I just wanted to point to this!

I'm sure that Sebastian Tombs will agree with me that the press release is complete guff even if it is signed by someone named Morgan

[Bob Riebe]

I do not think I saw the Buick V-6 listed anywhere which I believe ran from the early sixties till just recently.

The W engine from Chevrolet is totally different from the later Mark series.

It had the same style combustion chamber that the Ford Motor Co. MEL engine had.

All NHRA Top Fuel engines are now still based on the Chrysler Hemi because the NHRA will not allow any other.
John Force was gong to start using the Ford Shotgun engine again but the NHRA said no.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 04 March 2011 - 04:44.

[Andrew Stevens]

How about the rather obscure Brazilian made FNM 2000, which started life in 1960 as a version of the 1950s Alfa 1900 and 2000 sedans and went through various updates until 1986, when it bowed out as a sort of enlarged Alfetta/Alfa 6 sedan, but still powered by a 2.3l version of the old iron blocked 1900/2000 engine...some have been imported to Europe and the engines used to update 2000 Touring Spiders and suchlike.
Addition - I see from Wikipedia's entry on FNM that they were actually imported to Germany as the Alfa Romeo Rio for a year or in the early 1980s. Alfa seem to have somewhat struggled with their product range since the demise of the 105 series cars in the mid 1970s...hopefully they might build the new 4C!

Edited by Andrew Stevens, 03 March 2011 - 19:27.

[elansprint72]

http://www.morgan3wh...co.uk/home.html

I wasn't sure where to post this, don't have time to start a new thread, but I just wanted to point to this!

Did I dream it, or did I read somewhere that these things are of US origin?

[Lee Nicolle]

I do not think I saw the Buick V-6 listed anywhere which I believe ran from the early sixties till just recently.

The W engine from Chevrolet is totally different from the later Mark series.

It had the same style combustion chamber that the Ford Motor Col MEL engine had.

All NHRA Top Fuel engines are now still based on the Chrysler Hemi because the NHRA will not allow any other.
John Force was gong to start using the Ford Shotgun engine again but the NHRA said no.

Yes we got the Aussie version in Commodores until about 2004. And I think the alloytec engine is still an evolution of it? Hardly recognisable from the original I thought very late 50s engine. But an evolution through from that time. Same basic engine as the alloy V8. Some parts interchange.
The 3.8 Commodore engine is used in a budget Sprintcar class here. Stock engines in usually a couple of year old chassis. Look stupid with huge 410 size tyres, no power and no wings.I call them Why Sprints. But they seem popular and on occasion can put on some decent racing.

[venator]

How long was the Auto Union/DKW 3cyl TS and Wartburg derivative in production?

Introduced in 1939, slated for production in 1940, built after the war in GDR as IFA, later as Wartburg until the early 1990s, also in Framo, later Barkas light commercials until around the same time; in FRG as DKW, later Auto Union into mid-1960s.
The 2-cylinder DKW engine was in production from late 1920s to 1950s in water-cooled form, converted to air-cooling survived in Trabants into the early 1990s, and I believe beyond that in Turkey.

[Geoff E]

Did I dream it, or did I read somewhere that these things are of US origin?

These ones? http://cycle-car.com/

[Tony Matthews]

Did I dream it, or did I read somewhere that these things are of US origin?

Dunno - I received notification of it by a site that informs me of every type of new product/innovation/discovery, only about 5% of it automotive. As I remembered this thread title without having read any of it, and being in a rush to leave the house, I stuck the link in, not realising that it was complete guff! Ho hum.

Edited:- These ones? http://cycle-car.com/ - having just looked at this site I can see what the 'problem' is. Actually, what intrigues me is that, whilst I understand that 'Harley-Davidson' is a registered name, how can 'Twin-cam' be registered - or has HD owned it for some time?

Edited by Tony Matthews, 03 March 2011 - 21:50.

[D-Type]

Introduced in 1939, slated for production in 1940, built after the war in GDR as IFA, later as Wartburg until the early 1990s, also in Framo, later Barkas light commercials until around the same time; in FRG as DKW, later Auto Union into mid-1960s.
The 2-cylinder DKW engine was in production from late 1920s to 1950s in water-cooled form, converted to air-cooling survived in Trabants into the early 1990s, and I believe beyond that in Turkey.

Wasn't the SAAB 3 cyl 2-stroke part of the same family? It was definitely related.

[fredeuce]

I never really considered the Ford Windsor as a racing engine. I know it's been used but I thought the Cleveland was more of a racing engine.

The Boss 302 of 1969 represents the high point of the development of the Ford Windsor. That was built with the chief goal of racing in which they did well. That engine is basically still used in V8 Supercars here in Oz today.

I would not say the Cleveland was more of a racing engine than the Windsor. Those heads on that engine are basically the Boss head with the new block underneath them replete with all of their shortcomings.

[sbrinley]

As one who has owned, raced, restored and written about more Morgans over a period of nearly 50 years than you have had hot dinners, I would equally respectfully suggest that you follow the precepts of your signature and not rely on Wikipedia in an attempt to appear knowledgeable. The point of this thread is surely continuity of design, not whether the sidelight bulbs had been subsequently uprated? My contention is that the DNA of the Morgan 4/4 built today is very substantially similar to that of the 1936 car and much more pur sang than any other long-lived vehicle design. Yes, it is still clothed in an ash-framed coachbuilt body.

Do they still mount the batteries on plywood floorboards with skinny hold-down rods and wing nuts?

[sbrinley]

The Boss 302 of 1969 represents the high point of the development of the Ford Windsor. That was built with the chief goal of racing in which they did well. That engine is basically still used in V8 Supercars here in Oz today.

I would not say the Cleveland was more of a racing engine than the Windsor. Those heads on that engine are basically the Boss head with the new block underneath them replete with all of their shortcomings.

Are we forgetting the Ford flathead V-8 from the '30s? They were the backbone of drag racing in the very early days and, while they may not be racing any more, they are still powering a lot of hot rods and custom cars in the US.

[fredeuce]

Are we forgetting the Ford flathead V-8 from the '30s? They were the backbone of drag racing in the very early days and, while they may not be racing any more, they are still powering a lot of hot rods and custom cars in the US.

Not at all. My comments were specifically targeted toward the Ford Windsor and Ford Cleveland families of engines.

The venerable flathead Ford V8 has been touched on elsewhere in this thread and don't wish to add much other than it represented quite a breakthrough in its time in bringing V* power to the masses. Up until that time production techniques were such that the V8s of the day were heavy and expensive. Certainly not something the ordinary man could aspire to. That all changed with Henry's flathead. They are now being reproduced in aluminium alloy. Not bad for what is basically now an 80 year old design.

[arttidesco]

I'm sure that Sebastian Tombs will agree with me that the press release is complete guff even if it is signed by someone named Morgan

Good old Auntie Beeb seems to have swallowed the Morgan press release 'guff' hook line and sinker as does the man who can in Geneva from the highly esteemed Car and Van News

Edited by arttidesco, 04 March 2011 - 18:04.

[sbrinley]

Not at all. My comments were specifically targeted toward the Ford Windsor and Ford Cleveland families of engines.

The venerable flathead Ford V8 has been touched on elsewhere in this thread and don't wish to add much other than it represented quite a breakthrough in its time in bringing V* power to the masses. Up until that time production techniques were such that the V8s of the day were heavy and expensive. Certainly not something the ordinary man could aspire to. That all changed with Henry's flathead. They are now being reproduced in aluminium alloy. Not bad for what is basically now an 80 year old design.

Sorry; didn't see the earlier reference. Are the aluminum engines being used in competition?

[davegess]

Dunno - I received notification of it by a site that informs me of every type of new product/innovation/discovery, only about 5% of it automotive. As I remembered this thread title without having read any of it, and being in a rush to leave the house, I stuck the link in, not realising that it was complete guff! Ho hum.

Edited:- These ones? http://cycle-car.com/ - having just looked at this site I can see what the 'problem' is. Actually, what intrigues me is that, whilst I understand that 'Harley-Davidson' is a registered name, how can 'Twin-cam' be registered - or has HD owned it for some time?

I think this is a "real" Morgan, made by the folks in Malvern but set up as an independent company. Looks like a fun ride. http://www.morgan-mo...ee_wheeler.html