91 replies to this topic

[Rennmax]

Just guessing, but the pic of Grant on a Sheene Yamaha could be from the 500cc race , hence on one of those 500 TZ's , while the other pics on a Honda could be from the "big" , unlimited race ?

edit : the meeting report says Grant won the 500 race on his Suzuki RG, but he may have tried the TZ in practice?

According to the front mudguards, Mick and Barry are on different bikes

[philippe7]

Barry on a 750, Mick on a 500 ? (perhaps....)

[mfd]

Barry on a 750, Mick on a 500 ? (perhaps....)

Frustrating & funny, but I retain some things, even tiny details in the memory, but not this & I was there

[Gladders]

Well done Graham for finding that out.

The race I saw at Darley I think Brent had just started to ride the bike but really showed Steve Mainwaring that he was going to show him that he could ride it. It was a superb race with the two of them going at each other. Ask him does he remember it.

Cheers Mark

Mark yes I do remember it well, Steves RG 500 Suzuki was faster than my TZ 500 but I had him in the brakes - brilliant fun and winning always brings a smile even today with the Team Tony Robinson and I still run www.grmotosport.co.uk I raced the TZ at many of the roads that year Southern 100 and I finish 2nd in the 1983 Manx Grand Prix 500 new comers Bazza thought I was nuts and he was right - the good old days -- How do you add pictures to this I could put a couple up of me on the bike in the IOM
Cheers Brent Gladwin

[picblanc]

Hi Brent, you have to put the photos into a Photobucket or flikr account first (free) then copy html code onto your post, dead easy, just make sure your photo is about 6 to 8inches wide for best viewing on here.
Graham.

[fazz]

Mark yes I do remember it well, Steves RG 500 Suzuki was faster than my TZ 500 but I had him in the brakes - brilliant fun and winning always brings a smile even today with the Team Tony Robinson and I still run www.grmotosport.co.uk I raced the TZ at many of the roads that year Southern 100 and I finish 2nd in the 1983 Manx Grand Prix 500 new comers Bazza thought I was nuts and he was right - the good old days -- How do you add pictures to this I could put a couple up of me on the bike in the IOM
Cheers Brent Gladwin

Hi Brent yes i remember the 1983 manx as I broke down in the 350 newcomers on the first lap Steve Carthy won the 500 class and Robert Dunlop won the 350. Yes I remember the Darley race as you kept out breaking him into Paddock briliant race will speak soon.
Mark

[fazz]

So then guys do we think this is a genuine bike or not?

Anyone who buys it would have to check any history whatever the bike comes with before giving any money across as being one of Barrys would bring the price up if it can be proven.
Mark

[exclubracer]

Hi Brent, glad you've joined us, welcome to the Old Farts Club

[Gladders]

Hi Brent, glad you've joined us, welcome to the Old Farts Club

cheers Mick I am told i have been in that club for quite a while Ha Ha

[Paul Collins]

I remember around 1981 a couple of local Lincolnshire lads Ian Bell (not the one on the 750 in this thread) and Chris Bourn bought two bikes from a Barry, a TZ500 which was reputed to be Barry´s and an RG500 which I think belonged to Roberto Pietri but was stored at Barry´s place.

Would this be the same TZ500 that you ended up with Brent or did you buy it direct from Barry?

[Quixotic]

Hmmmmmmm Add a famous name, and add $$$$$$$$ to its value.

I would want to check it out completely. I am very leery of this one......

Edited by Quixotic, 18 December 2010 - 23:00.

[GD66]

It's an old one...dunno how many "ex-Barry Sheene" TR750s were advertised years ago, but without doubt the winner was the 350 Ducati racers. I don't think I ever saw one that wasn't "ex-Spaggiari"...

[philippe7]

So then guys do we think this is a genuine bike or not?

Anyone who buys it would have to check any history whatever the bike comes with before giving any money across as being one of Barrys would bring the price up if it can be proven.
Mark

Wel I have no first hand knowledge ( outside of seeing an obviously genuine one in 1997) but if you ask what we "think" , Mark, then I maintain what I wrote a couple of days ago :

Well, if Barry only ever had 2 Akai 500 TZ's , if Brent Gladwin still has one which he has had since the 80's, if we assume the bike on e-bay is the ex-Gilsenan machine which was "restored in 94", and if we add the one which was in Barry's house in '97, that's one too many already .....

[philippe7]

I mailed Brent Gladwin last night & here is his reply,

Graham yes I did and yes i still do lol - my bike was one of the sheene Akai 500 bikes and is well Documented - he did always have more than 1 bike - he had 2 750's and 2 500's he then swapped to full factory bikes reverse cylinder - known as son of slug - I also bought this bike from Steve Parrish - this then went to Tony Robinson - who had it restored by George Beal - Nigel Everett did the work - it was then sold on to the current owner Wilson - also the Suzuki Sheene rode onto the BBC sports personality show when he returned to Suzuki is still at a friend of mine's - it would be very interesting to see the history of the bike on ebay because I bought Son of Slug from Steve P in the 80's with some other bikes and if there had been another TZ there at the time I would have bought it for Tony - maybe Steve purchased the bike after that and mossey did it up ? there were very few of these bikes !!!!

Just to show that things can indeed be very complicated with "historic" machines....this is below what Dave "Mushroom" Johnson said about the bikes he took care of for Stavros at the time.....

This morning I got the following e-mail :

strange what you find on the internet !!! i built that rd 500 bike when i worked for stavros. we had also the ex boet van dulman ow53 bike with flat power valves and sonato give us an alloy frame when they had a work shop clearout so that got a standard tz500 engine in it.after one race we change the cylinders on the ex works bike to standard ones and put a extra front radiator on it (slug and son of slug) best regards from Tirol/Austria

Dave (Mushroom) Johnson

I'm not sure precisely whick of the bikes Dave refers to , seems to me he speaks of the "old" 4-in-line GP racer, but anyway it's good to have the insight of those who were there and did it ! I've replied asking him a few questions, we'll see ...

I sent Dave the following e-mail :

Do I understand correctly that the original ex-Van Dulmen OW53 machine was equipped with a normal round steel tube frame, then? And that you later used the ex-Sonauto square alloy frame? Or did you have two different machines , the van dulmen one AND a alloy framed / Standard TZ engine bitza ? ( plus of course the F1 RDLC 500 )

to which he replied :


Good Morning Philippe
The dulman bike had already a alloy frame we just put modified tz500j cylinders on it .
On the standard tz500j got a alloy frame and a pair of works forks and electronic power valve motor
On both bikes I put a extra front radiator on them
Best regards Dave

So it seems Stavros indeed had two different 500 Yamaha in-line 4's : the ex-van dulmen factory bike equiped with production TZ500 cylinders, and a bitza made from a TZ500 engine fitted in an ex-sonauto alloy frame with factory fork . One machine called "slug" and the other "son of a slug" if I understood everything !

[SILVERDREAMRACER]

Hi,
here's a couple of period photos of Barry's Akai TZ750's and the lovely Steph
the white livery is in the Harris chassis
the black livery looks like pretty stock TZ750 customer bike

[philippe7]

Very interesting This means than unlike what I thought, the 750 in a Harris frame ( which I saw in Barry's museum ) was indeed put together in period, and not as a later years "show bike"....

[mfd]

the black livery looks like pretty stock TZ750 customer bike

The livery on the eBay bike is nearly, but not quite right. The width of the white stripes for one are wrong...I know SDR's photo is the 750, but there's no reason the same guy painting the 500 fairing would make it different to the the 750, so I'd suggest the paint on the bike for sale is not original. The advert says it is ex Parrish and apart from that there's nothing to suggest it really is a Sheene bike.
Dave Johnson in P7's e-mail also says where Parrish's bikes came from. At some point Parrish did have a reverse cylinder, but I don't understand why it refers to this and OW48 in the advert, when it is clearly not!
If memory serves me correctly, the TZ 500 wasn't very popular and in the UK I only remember the Fowlers bikes & Parrish being competitive. Stavros was well connected with Mitsui though

[SILVERDREAMRACER]

here is a link to a good clear picture of the bike
it was sold at Cheffins Duxford Auction in june 2004 ,the hammer price was £19,000

it does seem to be a very standard customer TZ500 with a replica paintjob to me,
if i were Barry I'd have a few go faster goodies fitted!

http://www.motorsnip...raphics/167.jpg

[Steve7]

Not sure if it has been mentioned but Barry lent one of the TZ 500's to Bernard Murray to do the TT which was in most magazines at the time.
Mark

Found this photo of me on that bike at the TT.



Steve.

[picblanc]

We have discussed before these so called original bikes, so how much was used by Sheene, frame? swing arm? forks? not much else probably?
The purchaser is going to buy a bike that parts have been raced by Sheene, not as "last raced" by him.
Same with all these bikes reputedly owned/raced by stars of days gone by, eg those owned by Steve Wheatman & others they are restored bikes not as last raced by machines, the only one that I have seen that is as last used & at the moment is 100% genuine as such (but not for sale) is the Dave Potter TZ750 owned by Chris Broad.
I think that the "as raced by ****** " is a very misleading & not strictly accurate sales tag when applied to these restored & previously raced by others, after the star named rider has passed/sold them on to be used for a few more racing seasons.

Edited by picblanc, 19 December 2010 - 13:22.

[picblanc]

here is a link to a good clear picture of the bike
it was sold at Cheffins Duxford Auction in june 2004 ,the hammer price was £19,000

it does seem to be a very standard customer TZ500 with a replica paintjob to me,
if i were Barry I'd have a few go faster goodies fitted!

http://www.motorsnip...raphics/167.jpg

Thats def the same bike, & I agree its a replica paint job the 7 on the sides not right!

[SADBATCCM]

Thats def the same bike, & I agree its a replica paint job the 7 on the sides not right!

Wheres the Dymag wheels

[mfd]

Where's the Dymag wheels

Well you wouldn't want to spend any money on it ... With those wires if it was painted white, it would look like a nice original example
I've also noticed the replica hasn't had the hole cut out in the side of the fairing.

[SADBATCCM]

Well you wouldn't want to spend any money on it ... With those wires if it was painted white, it would look like a nice original example
I've also noticed the replica hasn't had the hole cut out in the side of the fairing.

I suppose it’s too much to hope for to find stone chips duck tape and scrutaneering stickers on it

[mfd]

Just noticed the Shell logo on the side of the fairing.

Interesting that H&H Auctioned a TZ500 this year for 30k plus and the wording here
http://www.classic-a...Z500-32048.aspx
Is exactly the same description on the eBay advert

[SADBATCCM]

Well looking at the one from the auction, the eBay tz is going for the same money if you take the exchange rate into consideration!!
Do think that it’s a customer bike? And when it was restored it was back to that!
But I can just see the owner face when it was shown to him/her for the first time. But it’s white!!!
Well what colour do you want?
What can I have?
Well yellow black or white red and last but not least black and red..... That sells well
Mmmmmmmmmm!!

[philippe7]

Interesting that H&H Auctioned a TZ500 this year for 30k plus and the wording here
http://www.classic-a...Z500-32048.aspx
Is exactly the same description on the eBay advert

Yes...and to further confuse things, this "ex-Walter Villa" machine ( which may have become "ex-Barry Sheene" between the two auctions ...) is also advertised as being a 1981 model whereas Barry's were certainly from 1980....

Well spotted with the white stripes width Mike , the paintjob on the e-bay bike is certainly not original ( which of course doesn't mean the rest isn't...I'm not meaning to be sued by the seller ! )

[SADBATCCM]

Yes...and to further confuse things, this "ex-Walter Villa" machine ( which may have become "ex-Barry Sheene" between the two auctions ...) is also advertised as being a 1981 model whereas Barry's were certainly from 1980....

Well spotted with the white stripes width Mike , the paintjob on the e-bay bike is certainly not original ( which of course doesn't mean the rest isn't...I'm not meaning to be sued by the seller ! )

PMSL

[philippe7]

Just noticed the Shell logo on the side of the fairing.

There again, very well spotted Mike . The shell oils sign on my pic of the bike in Barry's lounge ( well, more precisely, the pic taken by Barry of me on his bike ....) is the same as on the pic posted by Steve7 of him sitting on the bike when it was used by Bernard Murray at the TT :

Found this photo of me on that bike at the TT.



Steve.

Which TT was that, Steve7, 1981 or 1982 ? It's important, since all period pics of the black 500 in 1980 are with Texaco sponsoring ( as is the machine on e-bay ) , I haven't seen any oil/petrol sponsors on the 1981 pics of Barry on the "white" bikes ( only Akai ) , and it's only in 1982 that Shell Oils appear on Barry's factory 500's along with John Player Special.

So, wether the TT pic is from 1981 and Bernie Murray had secured Shell sponsorship, or from 1982 and Barry had replaced the Texaco signage by his new sponsor Shell before lending the bike to Murray, in any case it means the bike in Barry's house is decorated "as last used " by Bernard Murray at the TT - and , perhaps, the very same machine. And that one at least, we would hope, is genuine !

[Steve7]

There again, very well spotted Mike . The shell oils sign on my pic of the bike in Barry's lounge ( well, more precisely, the pic taken by Barry of me on his bike ....) is the same as on the pic posted by Steve7 of him sitting on the bike when it was used by Bernard Murray at the TT :



Which TT was that, Steve7, 1981 or 1982 ? It's important, since all period pics of the black 500 in 1980 are with Texaco sponsoring ( as is the machine on e-bay ) , I haven't seen any oil/petrol sponsors on the 1981 pics of Barry on the "white" bikes ( only Akai ) , and it's only in 1982 that Shell Oils appear on Barry's factory 500's along with John Player Special.

So, wether the TT pic is from 1981 and Bernie Murray had secured Shell sponsorship, or from 1982 and Barry had replaced the Texaco signage by his new sponsor Shell before lending the bike to Murray, in any case it means the bike in Barry's house is decorated "as last used " by Bernard Murray at the TT - and , perhaps, the very same machine. And that one at least, we would hope, is genuine !

Sadly, I cant remember the year this was taken, I spotted the bike in parc ferme, 'bypassed' the fence, and had the photo taken, knowing who owned the bike.
Will try and dig out any more photos I might have of it.

Steve.

[picblanc]

Why would Barry lend Bernard Murray one of his "two" TZ500's for the TT? he hated the race & would he not need it for his GP campaign even if there was no GP over TT fortnight I cant see that?

[SADBATCCM]

Why would Barry lend Bernard Murray one of his "two" TZ500's for the TT? he hated the race & would he not need it for his GP campaign even if there was no GP over TT fortnight I cant see that?

he was like that in the pits .... Totally different person than you saw on TV

[philippe7]

Why would Barry lend Bernard Murray one of his "two" TZ500's for the TT? he hated the race & would he not need it for his GP campaign even if there was no GP over TT fortnight I cant see that?

It wasn't the same year, Graham !... It's in 1981 ( just found the answer....on Bernard Murray's official website ! ) that Barry lent one of his previous year's machines to Bernard Murray... by then he had graduated to a factory machine ( reverse cylinders in-line 4 , then square four later in the year...I think ) .

Plenty of pics of the event on the linked gallery....even one of Bazza spannering (!!!) for Bernard .

http://www.bernardmurray.com/gallery

[philippe7]

Interesting that H&H Auctioned a TZ500 this year for 30k plus and the wording here
http://www.classic-a...Z500-32048.aspx
Is exactly the same description on the eBay advert

Yes.... and I actually only just noticed that, outside of being exactly the same text as the H&H auction ( which was of a 1981 model ex-Walter Villa ...) , the e-bay advert which started this thread refers to the bike as a 500 TZ H whereas the 1980 model that Barry had was a TZ G ..... which does a least prove one thing, that is that the person who wrote the e-bay advert doesn't know what he is talking about .

[philippe7]

he was like that in the pits .... Totally different person than you saw on TV

Just to illustrate that....something I found on the web by accident while looking for 500TZ info... Graham Wood telling the story of how the superstar Barry behaved with a young up-and-coming colleague.....
http://www.thisisscu...il/article.html

[picblanc]

It wasn't the same year, Graham !... It's in 1981 ( just found the answer....on Bernard Murray's official website ! ) that Barry lent one of his previous year's machines to Bernard Murray... by then he had graduated to a factory machine ( reverse cylinders in-line 4 , then square four later in the year...I think ) .

Plenty of pics of the event on the linked gallery....even one of Bazza spannering (!!!) for Bernard .

http://www.bernardmurray.com/gallery

Ah!! that accounts for it, thank you Philippe.

[philippe7]

Just found another photo I took in Barry's living room....not that it adds much to the debate, except to confirm the "shell oil" bit ( also on the 750 )



Also, unlike on the "sheffield duncton auction" (?) bike, no "barry sheene" name tag on the fairing "bubble" ( is that correct ? that's what the transparent part is called in french...."bulle" ) Barry knew that everybody knew who he was...

Edited by philippe7, 20 December 2010 - 10:47.

[fazz]

Why would Barry lend Bernard Murray one of his "two" TZ500's for the TT? he hated the race & would he not need it for his GP campaign even if there was no GP over TT fortnight I cant see that?

Hi Graham in one of the weekly papaers or Motorcycle racing mag at the time and in fact Bernard is pictured in the magazine racing the bike he was indeed sponsored by Shell. At the time Barry was quoted as saying he rated Bernard as an excellent TT rider and wanted to help him with one of his bikes to see if he could get a good result.

If anyone has a copy of Motorcycle racing mag which was from 1981 as it was the year after Barry had used the bike the picture will be in that.

I agree it seemed strange as he hated the event but as we have read many stories of him helping other riders with parts and knowledge when he was racing well probably only the riders he liked or got on with. But just goes to show what a tremendous bloke he was.

Mark

[mfd]

Barry knew that everybody knew who he was...

That just about says it all but for someone else, they have to put Famous Person...as it's necessary to emphasise, just in case they don't know ...

[mfd]

..we have read many stories of him helping other riders with parts and knowledge when he was racing well probably only the riders he liked or got on with. But just goes to show what a tremendous bloke he was.

Sheene played up the rivalry with Read Ago etc & if you were a fan of theirs, you tended not to be one of Barry's. If you reflect today on F1 inter team rivalries, you can see what Barry was doing with the little jibes at Hartog, Hennen, Roberts etc. Those stories fitted better with the media than many of the true recollections. The Graham Wood story being a great example

[picblanc]

Hi Graham in one of the weekly papaers or Motorcycle racing mag at the time and in fact Bernard is pictured in the magazine racing the bike he was indeed sponsored by Shell. At the time Barry was quoted as saying he rated Bernard as an excellent TT rider and wanted to help him with one of his bikes to see if he could get a good result.

If anyone has a copy of Motorcycle racing mag which was from 1981 as it was the year after Barry had used the bike the picture will be in that.

I agree it seemed strange as he hated the event but as we have read many stories of him helping other riders with parts and knowledge when he was racing well probably only the riders he liked or got on with. But just goes to show what a tremendous bloke he was.

Mark

it was the lending his bike in 1980 I could'nt get my head around really Mark but as it was 1981 thats cleared it up.

[mfd]

it was the lending his bike in 1980 I could'nt get my head around really Mark but as it was 1981 thats cleared it up.

If the 2 x 1980 TZ500's were either bought from or donated by Mitsui and because in 1981 BS rode the OW53 with reverse cylinders and later the OW54 Square 4, the black Akai bikes weren't being used. Perhaps the 1981 TT outing, apart from doing Bernie Murray a favour, was also a shop window?

Edited by mfd, 20 December 2010 - 17:08.