71 replies to this topic

[jj2728]

Foyt won the Indy 500. Foyt and Gurney won Le Mans. Gurney won the Belgian Grand Prix. All accomplished in less than 30 days. This got me to wondering, had there ever been another period where American built cars and American drivers were as successfull in international motorsport during a 1 month time frame?

[RogerFrench]

The Anglo-American Eagle was surely not American built?

[TEJ]

The Anglo-American Eagle was surely not American built?

The cars were made in California, the motors were made in the UK.

[Barry Boor]

Where were the Le Mans Fords actually constructed?

[MCS]

Where were the Le Mans Fords actually constructed?

Slough, I would have said. But maybe not.

[Roy C]

Ford Advanced Vehicles
Banbury Avenue, Slough Trading Estate

Edited by Roy C, 21 December 2010 - 09:30.

[Roger Clark]

Ford Advanced Vehicles
Banbury Avenue, Slough Trading Estate

I thought the Mk IVs were American built.

[AMICALEMANS]

I am agree for the MIV.... build in america

[Roy C]

GT40 MkIV designed and built by Ford in the USA.

Detroit?

[Ray Bell]

Weren't they a development of the J-car?

Which was also an American build...

[maoricar]

Anyone thought of contacting Lee Holman ?

I know he attended at least one Le Mans ( 1966?) as a teenager and I'm sure that he could shed some first hand knowledge to this thread, although AFIK Holman Moody were involved with the winning Mk 2 which were built in the UK, rather than the Mk !V, which seems to have the name "Shelby" attached in many blogs ( what 1960's US Ford product DIDN'T have the name Shelby attached ?)

In fact, as I recall, when Hank the Duece bailed on the programme, the settlement terms with HM included the exclusive rights to the name "GT-40"

IMHO it is probably accurate to describe the Mk IV as an all-American car, wheras the earlier iterations had substantially a UK heritage, albeit with SOME US funding , motive power and driving talent.

[Tmeranda]

The Mk IV’s were made by a Ford wholly owned subsidiary known as KarKraft located near Detroit Michigan, and while loosely based on the Mk II’s were really a blank sheet exercise. Ford went to great lenghts to never call them GT40 Mark IV's, simply Mk IV,

[scags]

Ask the man who owns one- Where's Jim Glickenhaus?

[Amphicar]

Going back to the original question, the answer is almost certainly no. As the Ford Mk 4 is (so far) the only American built car to have won Le Mans and the Eagle Westlake is (again so far) the only American built F1 car to have won an F1 Championship race (excluding the the Kurtis Kraft and other roadsters that won the Indy 500 between 1950 and 1959) there hasn't been much chance of emulating the achievements of '67. Perhaps if we classify the Daytona 500 and the NHRA Winternationals as qualifying we could find a year when they and the Daytona 24 hour race were won by US built cars.

[jj2728]

Ok, now here's the next bit. Ford entered the MKIVs in 2 races in 1967, Sebring and Le Mans and won them both. Have there been other cars with such a racing pedigree? A 100% win rate?

[Tim Murray]

The Mercedes-Benz W165 springs to mind - one race, two cars, a 1-2 finish.

[2F-001]

100% win rate for a whole model type? I imagine there are actually quite a few instances* - depending on how you define a particular model. How about the Brabham BT46B?

*But, inevitably, instances of a car having a very short competitive career or a very specific one-race application.

Edited by 2F-001, 21 March 2011 - 14:17.

[D-Type]

Mercedes-Benz 300SLR comes close. It ran in about 6 races (Mille Miglia, Le Mans, TT, Targa Florio, Eifelrennen, Swedish GP), won 5 and was leading the 6th when withdrawn.
1984(?) McLaren - all bar the Italian GP

Correction: 1988 - thanks Tim

Edited by D-Type, 21 March 2011 - 14:54.

[Tim Murray]

1984(?) McLaren - all bar the Italian GP

The MP4/4 of 1988.

Another one-race wonder is the Fiat 806.

[Henri Greuter]

The MP4/4 of 1988.

Another one-race wonder is the Fiat 806.

There are other cars who have matched the performence over the years I think,

But I do know one car that had a remarkable debut in F1: the 1979 Ferrari T4, Kyalami and long beach were its first two races and the T4 won them, Double victories I may add to that.
Now there will be cars in later years that have done the same and better too but out of the top of my head I can't name them.

First two races, two double victories. It is one of the few records that the MP4/4 did not achieve beause of the braso being disqualified in the first race of the season.


Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 21 March 2011 - 15:40.

[Roger Clark]

Do not the talbot-Darracq voiturettes of the early 20s make all other claims of invincibility rather ridiculous? Was it 16 wins and no defeats? One pass I suppose.

[SJ Lambert]

The cars were made in California, the motors were made in the UK.

jj2728 and TEJ

Did Gurney ever put together more then a couple of Eagle Weslakes? A race report I've just read reckons his win in Spa was the first American Driver-Car winning combination since the 1921 French Grand Prix when Murphy won in a Duesenberg. Who else besides Gurney drove them? Was Bruce McLaren a season long team mate in 67 or did he only occupy a seat for a short time? ( I have him in a second Eagle Weslake for 67 French GP on the 2 3/4 mile Bugatti circuit at Le Mans - out with ignition problems).

The car itself is a magnificent looking creation - it has the look of an aircraft fuselage.

[RA Historian]

There were four Eagle F-1 cars built. The first was with a Climax 4, the rest with the Eagle-Weslake V-12s. The fourth chassis was the famous titanium chassis.

Generally, just one Eagle was entered in most races. However, in 1966 both Ludovico Scarfiotti and Bob Bondurant had a race, while in 1967 Richie Ginther was named to the team as a season long number two. However, Richie rather abruptly retired in May. Bruce McLaren did some races (3?) while he was waiting for his new M5 to be ready.

Interestingly, Bruce returned the favor the end of the next season when Dan gave up on the Eagle, both running out of money and running out of patience at the unreliability of the engine. Bruce put Dan in a third car for the last few races of the season.

Tom

[SJ Lambert]

Thanks Tom!!

[D-Type]

jj2728 and TEJ

Did Gurney ever put together more then a couple of Eagle Weslakes? A race report I've just read reckons his win in Spa was the first American Driver-Car winning combination since the 1921 French Grand Prix when Murphy won in a Duesenberg. Who else besides Gurney drove them? Was Bruce McLaren a season long team mate in 67 or did he only occupy a seat for a short time? ( I have him in a second Eagle Weslake for 67 French GP on the 2 3/4 mile Bugatti circuit at Le Mans - out with ignition problems).

The car itself is a magnificent looking creation - it has the look of an aircraft fuselage.

Peter Higham and Steve Small have:
Dan Gurney 24 starts (1966 to 1968)
Bruce Mclaren 3 (France, GB and Germany 1967)
Bob Bondurant 2 (US and Mexico 1966)
Al Pease 2 (Canada 1967 and 1968 - private entries)
Ludovico Scarfiotti 1 (Italy 1967)
and
Richie Ginther 1 DNQ (Monaco 1967)
Phil Hill 1 DNQ (Italy 1966)

Higham lists 4 types of Eagle AAR 101, 102, 103 and 104 so it looks as though they were numbered individually. There were 3 cars at the 1967 Dutch GP and apparently there were 7 Eagles on the 1967 Indianapolis grid so there were a few produced.

In my opinion possibly the best looking F1 car ever. And one of the best presented!

Edited by D-Type, 25 January 2013 - 21:29.

[Ray Bell]

Without equivocation, the best looking F1 car ever...

What a stroke of good fortune that it arrived before wings!

[jj2728]

Without equivocation, the best looking F1 car ever...

What a stroke of good fortune that it arrived before wings!

Even better fortune in that I reckon many of us actually had the chance to see it race in anger.

[Barry Boor]

And even better, see it WIN!

[Amphicar]

And even better, see it WIN!

I can't claim that - but I did see it do 15 laps of the Nordschleife a few weeks later (12 by DSG, 3 by BLM)

[AllTwelve]

jj2728 and TEJ

Did Gurney ever put together more then a couple of Eagle Weslakes? A race report I've just read reckons his win in Spa was the first American Driver-Car winning combination since the 1921 French Grand Prix when Murphy won in a Duesenberg. Who else besides Gurney drove them? Was Bruce McLaren a season long team mate in 67 or did he only occupy a seat for a short time? ( I have him in a second Eagle Weslake for 67 French GP on the 2 3/4 mile Bugatti circuit at Le Mans - out with ignition problems).

The car itself is a magnificent looking creation - it has the look of an aircraft fuselage.

... assuming the car in this pict has been run recently, it looks to be tuned a little on the lean side? gorgeous lump, one of my F1 favorite cars.

[jj2728]

And even better, see it WIN!

[Amphicar]

Going back to the original poster's observation about wins by American cars and drivers in June 1967, something else has occurred to me. With the debut of the DFV engine in F1, 1967 was a year when Ford powered cars were successful in just about all forms of top-level motorsport and the month from the Indy 500 on 30 May to the Firecracker 400 on 4 July was probably the apogee:

30 May - AJ Foyt's Coyote Ford wins the Indy 500
4 June - Jim Clark's Lotus Ford wins the Dutch Grand Prix
11 June - AJ Foyt & Dan Gurney's Ford Mk 4 wins the Le Mans 24 hrs
11 June - Don Prudhomme's Ford powered top fuel dragster wins the NHRA Springnationals
25 June - Jo Schlesser & Guy Ligier's Ford GT40 Mk2 wins the Reims 12 hrs
4 July - Cale Yarborough leads home a Ford 1,2,3,4 in the Firecracker 400 at Daytona

Can any other maker match that?

[D-Type]

Going back to the original poster's observation about wins by American cars and drivers in June 1967, something else has occurred to me. With the debut of the DFV engine in F1, 1967 was a year when Ford powered cars were successful in just about all forms of top-level motorsport and the month from the Indy 500 on 30 May to the Firecracker 400 on 4 July was probably the apogee:

30 May - AJ Foyt's Coyote Ford wins the Indy 500
4 June - Jim Clark's Lotus Ford wins the Dutch Grand Prix
11 June - AJ Foyt & Dan Gurney's Ford Mk 4 wins the Le Mans 24 hrs
11 June - Don Prudhomme's Ford powered top fuel dragster wins the NHRA Springnationals
25 June - Jo Schlesser & Guy Ligier's Ford GT40 Mk2 wins the Reims 12 hrs
4 July - Cale Yarborough leads home a Ford 1,2,3,4 in the Firecracker 400 at Daytona

Can any other maker match that?

Stretching things a bit: in March, the Team Prize in the Safari went to the Ford Cortina GTs driven by Peter Hughes/ Billy Young, Mike Armstrong/ Chris Bates and Vic Elford/ Lionel Baillon. But they 'only' managed 2nd and 3rd overall.

[Dhango]

Peter Higham and Steve Small have:
Dan Gurney 24 starts (1966 to 1968)
Bruce Mclaren 3 (France, GB and Germany 1967)
Bob Bondurant 2 (US and Mexico 1966)
Al Pease 2 (Canada 1967 and 1968 - private entries)
Ludovico Scarfiotti 1 (Italy 1967)
and
Richie Ginther 1 DNQ (Monaco 1967)
Phil Hill 1 DNQ (Italy 1966)

Higham lists 4 types of Eagle AAR 101, 102, 103 and 104 so it looks as though they were numberted individually. There were 3 cars at the 1967 Dutch GP and apparently there were 7 Eagles on the 1967 Indianapolis grid so there were a few produced.

In my opinion possibly the best looking F1 car ever. And one of the best presented!

Correct me if I'm wrong. The Eagle's model name was T1G. I think that I've seen in a few places that they're called AAR1 or AAR2 but I'm pretty sure that the name was T1G, the same for the entire life of the team, regardless of the year or the engine. Probably some people used the AAR1 name as other people called the Lotus from the '72-'79 period(and I've seen this) JPS1, JPS2, JPS3, etc. If my memory serves me well, in an Anniversary Issue of the Road & Track Magazine is a painting of an Eagle that reads "Eagle T1G, Indy version". And I have some photos with one name or the other.

[Tim Murray]

It's not that straightforward, I'm afraid. Dan Gurney doesn't accept the 'T1G' designation, which was given to it by its designer Len Terry. In this very ancient thread:

A letter from Dan Gurney

although the letter itself is no longer available, the relevant quote from it is:

Dan Gurney -

....I think I can call my car anything I want to no matter what other experts think and have conjured up through the years, and our official name is:

Eagle Gurney-Weslake V12 Formula 1 car.

That is the name that the fans know and understand.

There's further clarification from Doug Nye later on in that thread:

Okay - not messing about now... Eagle designations.

In 1965 Dan commissioned former Lotus designer Len Terry to create his new team's F1 and Indy cars for him. Len had begun his career designing his own sports and Junior cars under the name 'Terrier'. He created the Gilby cars for Syd Greene and his son Keith. Though they were known publicly as 'Gilby', Len - being an orderly-minded kind of chap - gave them a 'Terrier' project number of his own.

Colin Chapman spotted real talent and engaged Len to make the stressed-skin hulled Lotus 25 truly raceworthy. They developed it ultimately into the Type 33. Len regarded those cars - and the 1965 Indy-winning Lotus 38 as designs somebody else had started - so he recalls today he didn't really give them 'Terrier' project numbers. Then Dan made him a good offer, and he went off to California for the AAR Eagle project(s).

Point one - to Len those initial series Eagles would be his design from the ground up - so when he drew them the F1 variant was in his work portfolio the 'Terrier T9'. Check Len's book but from memory he thinks this is correct...

His original drawings for the project would have adopted his normal working procedure, based upon that used by Ford, in which each drawing identification serial would have been prefaced by 'Car model', then a letter to indicate which area of the car the drawing featured - as in 'A' chassis - 'B'body - 'C' front suspension - 'D' rear suspension, etc - and then a basically 3-digit serial to specify the individual drawing. Thus the very first chassis drawing for example would have been serialled '(Car Model code)-A-001'.

The car model code that Len chose - repeat, that Len chose - was 'T' for 'Terry', '1' for first version, and 'G' for Gurney - Eagle T1G - Indy version = T2G.

It would probably have been AAR F1 team manager Bill Dunne who told us about this being the car's type number - a la Lotus 25 or BRM P83 - in 1966.

The monocoques were fabricated solely in California - absolutely not in the UK - with ex-Team Lotus sheet metal man John Lambert amongst the build team. The Rye facility in England was little more than a race preparation shop with Weslake's adjoining engine shop not really giving Dan the tools this superb driver deserved.

Dan probably won't accept the above - but it's what we were told at the time - and what Len has just confirmed to me this bright and sunny morning...

Sorry about winding you all up previously...

DCN

[RA Historian]

Tim Murray is right, as is, of course, his posting of an old Doug Nye statement. T1G was never accepted, but over the years, like so much other erroneous info, has gotten "baked in" to the point where a lot of people believe it to be true. Examples abound, such as "Huffaker" for the Kjell Qvale BMC Indy cars and Genie sports racers, "sharknose" for the '61-'62 Ferraris (never used by the factory!), and, hitting close to home here, "Gurney Eagle". The cars were Eagles, never Gurney Eagles. Gurney was used on the V-12 engine as a Gurney-Weslake, the Eagle on the nose emblem was surrounded by a 'G', but the name Gurney was never applied to the cars themselves. I also do not recall ever seeing Talbot applying the word 'teardrop' officially to their cars, nor Mercedes-Benz officially designating its 300-SL coupe as the 'gullwing', but I digress.

In John Zimmermann's book, Dan Gurney's Eagle Racing Cars, the names of all the Eagle cars are mentioned. Designations long ignored, such as 8100 for the '81 Indy car, Mk V for the '68-'69 F-5000 car for example, are listed. To the point: the F-1 Eagles are listed as "F-1 Eagle-Climax" and "F-1 Eagle-Gurney-Weslake", exactly what Tim posts. No mention whatsoever of the Len Terry only design code of 'T1G'.

Tom

[David McKinney]

Sharknose, Teardrop and Gullwing are all nicknames and surely acceptable

Once a certain age is reached, the student of motor-racing history can sit back with a smug look knowing he's right and the kids of today don't know what they're talking about

[elansprint72]

No mention so far of the first Eagle-Weslakes, which were modified Ford V8s. The V12 almost never happened, Weslake had been bought by the Owen Organisation (backers of BRM) in 1963 and BRM turned down the idea of building a V12.
Weslake not to be put off, went ahead with a two cylinder 500cc twin as a parts-tester and contacted their customer Gurney with the proposal for the V12, which was to be their first complete automobile engine design! The rest, as they say...

Was the second magnesium car ever completed by anyone? The Tony Southgate one.

[David McKinney]

When did the first V8 happen? I would have thought it was after the V12

[RA Historian]

When did the first V8 happen? I would have thought it was after the V12

According to John Zimmermann's book, Dan Gurney's Eagle Racing Cars,, the first Gurney Weslake Ford V-8 was used in Dan's Lotus 19B at Riverside in 1965. Later the engines carried valve covers inscribed "Gurney Eagle".
Tom

[David McKinney]

Thanks Tom

I was forgetting that one

Without checking, I couldn't think of anything before the McLeagle in 1968

[jj2728]

No mention so far of the first Eagle-Weslakes, which were modified Ford V8s. The V12 almost never happened, Weslake had been bought by the Owen Organisation (backers of BRM) in 1963 and BRM turned down the idea of building a V12.

Was the Mclaren-BRM V12 of '67 a precursor, engine-wise to, the '68 BRM V12 and so on?

[David McKinney]

Same thing, AFAIK

It was designed as a sportscar engine, but performed so well in the F1 McLaren that BRM decided to run them from then on

[elansprint72]

According to John Zimmermann's book, Dan Gurney's Eagle Racing Cars,, the first Gurney Weslake Ford V-8 was used in Dan's Lotus 19B at Riverside in 1965. Later the engines carried valve covers inscribed "Gurney Eagle".
Tom

Not sure that the Lotus sports-racer really counts as an Eagle-Weslake, the new AAR production building was not set up until the end of September 65 and that's where the Eagle-Weslakes were made. I'm fairly sure that these V8s were also run at Le Mans as well as in the Indy cars.

Reading who was involved at the time is like a who's who of UK racing Designers and Technicians.

There seems to have been so much going on with the F1 V12 being developed at the same time as the Indy and other engines; remarkable, in fact.

At the time I thought that the F1 Eagle was the most perfect-looking racing car ever built, and even now I don't really see much reason to change that view. I hoovered up all the information I could at the time (15 is a very impressionable age!).

Harry Weslake was something of a hero too- what a brilliant engineer.

[elansprint72]

Eagle at Donington.



Only four pots in this one!

Edited by elansprint72, 25 March 2011 - 20:36.

[RA Historian]

Interesting. both cars in that shot have moved on. Off the top of my head I cannot say who owns the four cyl Eagle, but it has been visible on the US west coast this past summer. I understand that Julian Bronson has just purchased the Scarab, the unused chassis number three. (Number one is owned by Don Orosco. Number two was owned a couple years ago by a couple of Chicagoans, but it has moved on. Orosco has a second F-1 Scarab but absent proof to the contrary, this is a replica.)
Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 25 March 2011 - 22:04.

[elansprint72]

Interesting. both cars in that shot have moved on. Off the top of my head I cannot say who owns the four cyl Eagle, but it has been visible on the US west coast this past summer. I understand that Julian Bronson has just purchased the Scarab, the unused chassis number three. (Number one is owned by Don Orosco. Number two was owned a couple years ago by a couple of Chicagoans, but it has moved on. Orosco has a second F-1 Scarab but absent proof to the contrary, this is a replica.)
Tom

Tom,
Thanks for the update; I took the shot in 06. The place was empty but the other Tom was around and I asked him if I could cross over the ropes to take some photos- "Aye lad but don't drop the camera on the cars, you bugger!".

[Roger Clark]

According to John Zimmermann's book, Dan Gurney's Eagle Racing Cars,, the first Gurney Weslake Ford V-8 was used in Dan's Lotus 19B at Riverside in 1965. Later the engines carried valve covers inscribed "Gurney Eagle".
Tom

Didn't Gurney drive a McLaren at Riverside in 1965? A report in Motor Racing magazine, January 1966, said that there were no more Ford parts remaining than in a Cosworth SCA.

The JW GT40s of 1968/69 used Weslake designed cylinder heads, labelled Gurney-Weslake and Gurney-Eagle at different times.

[Roger Clark]

The V12 almost never happened, Weslake had been bought by the Owen Organisation (backers of BRM) in 1963 and BRM turned down the idea of building a V12.
Weslake not to be put off, went ahead with a two cylinder 500cc twin as a parts-tester and contacted their customer Gurney with the proposal for the V12, which was to be their first complete automobile engine design! The rest, as they say...

As I understand it, Alfred Owen bought into Weslake in late 1962. It was established as a research facility for BRM, with Peter Berthon attached. Its greatest benefit may have been to get Berthon away from Bourne; their projects for BRM, including 4-valve heads and a flat crankshaft for the V8, were not generally successful.

When the 3-litre formula was announced, Weslake proposed that they should design and build a 48-valve V12 for BRM. Owen commissioned them to build two single cylinder research engines, one of 250cc, the other of 187cc, corresponding to a 12- and 16-cylinder 3-litre engine. Owen did not finally decide on the H16 until May 1965.

Edited by Roger Clark, 26 March 2011 - 13:01.

[RA Historian]

Didn't Gurney drive a McLaren at Riverside in 1965?

Practice? Just going from Zim's book.
Tom