27 replies to this topic

[Dan333SP]

I asked this question on a sportscar racing forum, and we haven't been able to come up with a satisfactory answer, so maybe some of the experts here can help me out. I was wondering what the oldest chassis is to have ever won a major sportscar race? I'm going for overall wins, as I know there are some GT Porsche 911s that were winning big races in their class into the 90s despite having a chassis that had been originally built in the early/mid 70s. Also, by "top level race" I'm referring to things like Le Mans, Ring 24, IMSA GTP, ALMS, World Sportscar Championship, ect. rather than national championships with many amateur drivers or historic events.

So far, the best guesses from that other forum involve the Jaguar XJR14 chassis that raced first as a Jag, then a Mazda with a Judd engine, then as a Joest-Porsche WSC and won Le Mans 2 times, the 2nd when the car was 6 years old. Also, there most likely are some 962s that were built in '85 or thereabouts and were winning in IMSA until '91, which is also 6 years... Anything with more longevity than that? I figured you guys would have a greater depth of knowledge as I can't really dig much deeper than the early 80s thanks to my young age

[Derwent Motorsport]

I suppose it depends on how much of the XJR14 was still there after six years and alos what you call a top level sports car race.
I would suspect the Ecurie Ecosse D types were quite old when they won at Le Mans and other D types would continue to win lesser races for a few years on.

[RA Historian]

Road America IMSA Camel GT race in 1993 was a Joest 1-2 with Porsche 962s. 10th season of racing for the 962 designation, more if you include the 956.

Then, of course, there is Le Mans 1994. A 962 win depending upon how you want to count it.

Tom

[Richard Young]

Didn't a Porsche 908/3 win a Silverstone 1,000ks in about 1980/81 ? It must have been fairly old by then.......

[2F-001]

I, too, was wondering about that 908/3... Sigi Brunn's car (which was co-driven Jurgen Barth, wasn't it?) - but I don't think it actually won at Silverstone. I think it was eventually beaten by the de Cadenet or possibly the Schornstein 935; those years are a bit fuzzy in the memory now. Mind you, I can't help feeling that Brunn's 908 won somewhere else.

The 908 that Joest used himself, but with the later turbo engine (more like the 936, I suppose) must have been fairly long in the tooth but, again, how much can the car can be said to have been original?

Edited by 2F-001, 22 December 2010 - 16:37.

[Dan333SP]

I, too, was wondering about that 908/3... Sigi Brunn's car (which was co-driven Jurgen Barth, wasn't it?) - but I don't think it actually won at Silverstone. I think it was eventually beaten by the de Cadenet or possibly the Schornstein 935; those years are a bit fuzzy in the memory now. Mind you, I can't help feeling that Brunn's 908 won somewhere else.

The 908 that Joest used himself, but with the later turbo engine (more like the 936, I suppose) must have been fairly long in the tooth but, again, how much can the car can be said to have been original?

I've read that the 908 you're talking about was really just a rebodied 936, so there was little or nothing carried over from an actual "period" 908 from the mid/late 60s. Similarly, the Kremer 917C that raced at Le Mans and Brands Hatch in 1981 used the original Porsche plans plus some newer bodywork, and it nearly won the Brands race thanks to Bob Wollek, but it was actually a new build chassis redesigned to be stronger to withstand the loads of better tires/aero, so it doesn't really qualify for what I'm looking for. I'm trying to figure out which individual chassis, by which I mean the basic tubular or monocoque structure, regardless of engine changes/body work progression like the Jag/Mazda/Porsche. That car's tub, despite the numerous changes, was definitely an original TWR Jag. The 962 1-2 at Road America could certainly qualify, I'd have to check out how old those chassis were, didn't Porsche build GTP-spec 962s until '88 or '89?

As for the Dauer 962LM, did they use Porsche original tubs to build that race/road car up, or did they do something similar to Kremer and use the original plans to create a new car? That Dauer is one of the sexiest Le Mans cars in a long while, IMO.

[D-Type]

What about early postwar races? Some of the cars definitely dated back to prewar. I'll have a look at wsrp tonight

[2F-001]

Dan - re. the 908 being largely 936, do you mean the Joest car? I think the car that Brunn had was genuinely old, if not entirely original.

I remember seeing the Kremer 917 recreation at Brands; it was certainly competitive but I don't think it ever looked like winning, did it? From memory, it broke down out in the country somewhere. I don't think there was ever any suggestion at the time that it was anything other than new - great to have seen it though.

The chassis of the de Cadenet, wasn't that originally from the 'Duckhams" car? If so, that was fairly old when it won a couple of WSC rounds - but again probably not much left from the original by then, if reskinned or whatever. Even then, I doubt it would be the oldest.

[Nordic]

I've read that the 908 you're talking about was really just a rebodied 936, so there was little or nothing carried over from an actual "period" 908 from the mid/late 60s.

Are you maybe mixing up the Joest 908/80 which was a 936, but could not be called one at the time but I think has now been given a Porsche chassis number (936/80 -004) and Brunn's 908 (013) which at silverstone was co driven by Eddie Jordan and finished 3rd.

http://rupert8766.fo...t/p3802396.html

http://rupert8766.fo...t/p3802388.html

Brunn & Joest was also running one or 2 seperate 908/3's as late as 1983 in the interserie races.

[Nordic]

I remember seeing the Kremer 917 recreation at Brands; it was certainly competitive but I don't think it ever looked like winning, did it? From memory, it broke down out in the country somewhere. I don't think there was ever any suggestion at the time that it was anything other than new - great to have seen it though.

The Kremer 917 was a contender for victory at Brands, and was leading when it had to retire. Wollek and Pescarolo where the drivers then.
The car was never passed off as anything other than new build.

http://maisonblanche.co.uk/917k81.html

[2F-001]

Thanks Nordic - I hadn't recalled the '917' being so far up the field at the time; my memory's not quite what it was! I do remember, though, walking around most of the circuit during he race and realizing the car was 'missing' (couldn't hear the commentary) and then coming across it parked up, where I think it remained (not making it back to the pits).

Some records show that Joest car as "908/4" - I presume those are stats published before Porsche allowed it a 936 number. (Although, of course, it wasn't called a 936 at the time so it's a moot point as to what it should be called retrospectively!)
It did have rather more 908-esque bodywork though didn't it?

Sorry, we've strayed off the main thrust somewhat.

Edited by 2F-001, 22 December 2010 - 17:53.

[Dan333SP]

Yes, I was confusing the Brunn and Joest cars, I'll defer to you guys on such matters ;). Any more pics of the Brunn car?

[Jesper O. Hansen]

Looking at your avatar, Dan333SP, I got to think about one of the 1990s WSC Ferrari 333SP or Rileys might have won races at a relative old age. I think Rob Dyson had one particular Riley that did quite a number of races, but as I'm not too familiar with that era, don't know how old this chassis would have been at its last victory.

Jesper

Edit: Had a look at Martin Krejsi's old site I found that Ferrari 333SP chassis 03 was delivered to Andy Evans of Scandia Motorsport for the IMSA WSC-series in 1994. The same chassis - now fitted with a Judd engine - won the 2001 Monza 1000 km-race for GLV Brums as part of the FIA Sportcar Championship.

The Dyson Racing Riley & Scott I was thinking of earlier must have been a Mk. I chassis 02, delivered for the 1995 season and pensioned off by the end of 2000, winning the 1999 24h Daytona as a final victory to my current knowledge.

This indicate that the Ferrari won a race in its eights season of racing, while the Riley & Scott was a winner in its fifth season.

Edited by Jesper O. Hansen, 22 December 2010 - 22:02.

[Cynic2]

Ferrari 333 SP chassis 003 won the IMSA round at Laguna Seca on July 24, 1994, driven by Fermin Felez and Andy Evans. The same chassis, although then fitted with a Judd V10 (the Fudd) won at Monza in 2001 on May 27, 2010 driven by Christian Vann and Gianni Lavaggi. That's a pretty good span.

(As an aside, this same car, chassis 003, won the 12 Hours of Sebring twice, in 1995 and 1997.)

David Seibert

[SWB]

I'd have thought it would be something like Jim Hall's Chaparral 2F, it won the 1967 BOAC 500 and the chassis was made in 1963.

Steve

[RA Historian]

The 962 1-2 at Road America could certainly qualify, I'd have to check out how old those chassis were, didn't Porsche build GTP-spec 962s until '88 or '89?

According to Martin Krejci, the cars were 962Cs, numbers 016 and 011.
Tom

[Dan333SP]

Looking at your avatar, Dan333SP, I got to think about one of the 1990s WSC Ferrari 333SP or Rileys might have won races at a relative old age. I think Rob Dyson had one particular Riley that did quite a number of races, but as I'm not too familiar with that era, don't know how old this chassis would have been at its last victory.

Jesper

Edit: Had a look at Martin Krejsi's old site I found that Ferrari 333SP chassis 03 was delivered to Andy Evans of Scandia Motorsport for the IMSA WSC-series in 1994. The same chassis - now fitted with a Judd engine - won the 2001 Monza 1000 km-race for GLV Brums as part of the FIA Sportcar Championship.

The Dyson Racing Riley & Scott I was thinking of earlier must have been a Mk. I chassis 02, delivered for the 1995 season and pensioned off by the end of 2000, winning the 1999 24h Daytona as a final victory to my current knowledge.

This indicate that the Ferrari won a race in its eights season of racing, while the Riley & Scott was a winner in its fifth season.

That 333 chassis has an amazing history, it must be the most valuable of the breed with the possible exception of the Moretti car which won Sebring and Daytona in the same year and retained the Ferrari V12 throughout its career.

As for the Dyson car, I found a quote from EFR after winning the ALMS driver's title in '99 that the car had over 45,000 miles of racing on it in 5 years of use, and if they ran that chassis into 2000 that's some pretty hefty race mileage for something as seemingly fragile as a sports prototype. I wonder how many miles a mid 90s F1 car would have on it now, counting its season of use and all subsequent testing/historic racing?

[MCS]

Interesting thread.

A question: did the 962-based Gunnar Porsche 966 ever win a race? I have a funny feeling it finally did, but may be wrong.

[Dan333SP]

I don't think that it ever did... The Kremer K8 won Daytona, which was quiet similar in concept to the 966 although built to the WSC rules. That 966 in the Sunoco colors was a cool looking car, a bit of a throwback to the Penske 917.

[Dan333SP]

Just because sharing is caring, here's a pic of a very good looking Kremer K8 running in historics, courtesy of supercars.net-

[Jesper O. Hansen]

According to Martin Krejci, the cars were 962Cs, numbers 016 and 011.
Tom

..starting their competition life in 1992 and 1989 respectively, again according to Martin. It seems Joest Racing entered fairly little raced cars during the late stages of Group C and IMSA GTP, while the famous 956.117 did everything from Le Mans to low-key Interseries races during its rather more intense 1984-1986 career.

In terms of racing mileage I would suspect the Obermaier Racing Porsche 956.109 would end up quite high. First raced in 1983, ending it's international career at the end of 1986, it participated in most World Championship events, usually among the finisher and doing the odd German series races too.

Jesper

Edit: an overview of chassis 956.109: http://www.racingspo...is/956-109.html

Edited by Jesper O. Hansen, 23 December 2010 - 20:31.

[KarlLeFong]

Hello

Jerry Grant's Lotus 19 Chev springs to mind here.

He was racing that car successfully in 1965 against the Lola T70's, Chaparrals etc and the chassis at best would have been 1961, so it was four to five yeays old at the time.

Not sure if it won any "top level" events but it certainly was very competitive at the highest level in USA.


Karl

[RCH]

Dan - re. the 908 being largely 936, do you mean the Joest car? I think the car that Brunn had was genuinely old, if not entirely original.

I remember seeing the Kremer 917 recreation at Brands; it was certainly competitive but I don't think it ever looked like winning, did it? From memory, it broke down out in the country somewhere. I don't think there was ever any suggestion at the time that it was anything other than new - great to have seen it though.

The chassis of the de Cadenet, wasn't that originally from the 'Duckhams" car? If so, that was fairly old when it won a couple of WSC rounds - but again probably not much left from the original by then, if reskinned or whatever. Even then, I doubt it would be the oldest.

Relying on an increasingly ageing memory here but...

I remember seeing Sigi Brunn's 908/3 (? not a great expert on Porsches) in Gulf colours at a historic meeting at Silverstone and then, probably only a few weeks later in the same colours racing competitively in the Silverstone 6 hours. Or am I going completely mad? Not got time to research this at the moment.

I don't recall the Kremer 917 being in any way competitive? Desperately trying to remember whether I was at Brands that day!

The WSC Slverstone and Monza winning DeCadenet was not developed from the Duckhams car. It was based on a Lola chassis whereas the original DeCad was built from an old F1 Brabham.

I would have thought, as someone has hinted that the "winner" of the OP would be something like a pre-war Delahaye or Lago-Talbot?

[Duc-Man]

Relying on an increasingly ageing memory here but...

I remember seeing Sigi Brunn's 908/3 (? not a great expert on Porsches) in Gulf colours at a historic meeting at Silverstone and then, probably only a few weeks later in the same colours racing competitively in the Silverstone 6 hours. Or am I going completely mad? Not got time to research this at the moment.

Was that in 1980? This is what racingsportscars.com comes up with searching Siegfried Brunn.
That chassis has quite some history and some pretty good results in its last year. But also: a nine year old car isn't really old enough to take part in a historic event.

[RCH]

Was that in 1980? This is what racingsportscars.com comes up with searching Siegfried Brunn.
That chassis has quite some history and some pretty good results in its last year. But also: a nine year old car isn't really old enough to take part in a historic event.

Yes that's the one, as I recall DeCadenet and Desire Wilson won with the Porsche chasing them down towards the finish. Surprised to see it was Jurgen Barth co driving. I remember thinking at the time that it was an odd car for a historic meeting, I believe it may have been an "invitation" event and the Porsche was in the UK ready for the 6-hours?

I may have some photos somewhere.

[LotusElise]

What about early postwar races? Some of the cars definitely dated back to prewar. I'll have a look at wsrp tonight

There were definitely some of the 1920s big bangers still in use in the first races after WWII.

I was going to suggest the Ferrari 333 as well - retired from the WSC by Angelo Zadra in 2001 (?) and seemingly still going strong.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I wonder how many miles a mid 90s F1 car would have on it now, counting its season of use and all subsequent testing/historic racing?

Not that many I'd have thought. A top team would have multiple chassis throughout the year, and and a lower end team running with fewer physical cars probably wouldn't have that much of a post-F1 lifespan. Nor would it have completed many laps in anger...

Less than 15,000 I'd say, assuming a single chassis did every lap of a 16 race 1994 season. 300km races, maybe another 300k of practice and qualifying. Sure they did some testing back then, but they wouldn't have gotten that much mileage in retirement. They aren't driven that frequently in the hands of private owners.

[maoricar]

Assuming "one-off" or "specials" are NOT excluded, Ralph Watson's Lycoming Special must, at least rate an 'honorable mention'

Raced from 1956/7 through 1968, this car garnered at least 5 national championships in hill climbing and sports car racing, not to mention some excellent finishes in open competition as a single-seater race car.

It was driven by, amongst others, Jim Clark and raced by Bruce McLaren.......and unlike many other cars mentioned in this thread, was driven to and from each event.

Since that time, retirement and a comprehensive rebuild has seen the Lycoming appear at Historic events in Australia the US and New Zealand where it is still actively campaigned to this day....some 50 years after first appearing in a competitive event

Edited by maoricar, 27 December 2010 - 18:03.