39 replies to this topic

[Ray Bell]

While Jamie is mucking around getting his scanner and the topo map together, I'll start the thread about this interesting little circuit just a few miles closer to Adelaide than Lobethal in the Onkaparinga Valley among the Adelaide Hills.
It was, as far as I know, the first circuit in Australia to host a Formula One race, that being held in October, 1951 and won by Stan Jones in the Maybach. It may well have been the only F1 race in the country prior to Adelaide, 1985, too. Although the powers that be had decreed that the Internation Formulae 1 & 2 would prevail here commencing in 1952, it was a scheme that fell on its head.
Nevertheless, the Maybach had its supercharger removed for the purpose of complying and it was never fitted again!
I have a nice photo of Whiteford leading Jones onto the main straight during their event, it was loaned to me by Clem Smith, present owner of the Mallala circuit.

Because I scanned this photo too large, I've been asked to delete it... okay, it is posted again a little way down...

Also happening at Woodside was a tragic accident in a motorcycle race where an early starter came round to complete his first lap before the scratch men had got away. Somehow he killed two people in the starting area, leading to the ban on public road circuits that was imposed the following year, the death of Lobethal coming with this ban.
In the meantime, keep an eye open for Jamie's topo map post and check the rise and fall, and the diagonal crossing of the main straight by the railway line![p][Edited by Ray Bell on 01-16-2001]

[TonyKaye]

Wow! A formula 1 race in Australia in 1952. That's totally new to, at least to me. Please Ray, let's have all the details so that we can enter it into Sheldon Volume 5.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Ray,
Can you please do me a favor and scan your picture in a little bit smaller. While I scrolled from left to right and up to down, my trackball overheated and blew the fuse of my computer.

Yes, I want to know more about this race.
...and who are the drivers? Are the policemen in the background truly Australians?

[Milan Fistonic]

This is the report on the 1951 Woodside meeting taken from Australian Motor Racing 1952.

WOODSIDE

The following weekend [after Bathurst on Oct 1] every one migrated to South Australia where the Sporting Car Club of South Australia were conducting a meeting on October 8th at Woodside. The Formula 2 race was the first event and Hunt’s Vincent engined Special immediately took the lead and held it until the finish. Davison, in the TC Special was balked on the line by Martin whose Cooper gave considerable trouble in practice and the racing. Nevertheless he made up his lost ground until he lead the remainder of the field but could make no impression on Hunt. The second race, conducted under Formula 1 for blown cars up to 1,500 cc capacity and unsupercharged cars up to 4.5 litres, was contested by only six cars. The now looked for duel between Jones in the Maybach, and Whiteford in the Lago Talbot, materialised and was possibly the most keenly contested yet. Whiteford, however, maintained his lead on this difficult little circuit and crossed the line a matter of yards ahead of Jones. The main field of 23 cars. First home was R. Brown’s TC with Jones second. Third place was taken by Miss Judy Rackham after she had led the field until the final lap.

The last three sentences don’t make much sense but that’s the way they appear in the book.

[Ray Bell]

'Main field' may refer to a combined race, and being a handicap this is all possible. Somewhere around here I have a report on the meeting.. hang on, this lot seems a little short for a meeting report, and such a report would not start this way.
You're probably quoting from Spotlight at the front of the magazine, while the full report is in the body of the mag somewhere (there's no pages on the contents, you just have to thumb through)... see what you can find.
In the meantime, just for Hans. Drivers are Doug Whiteford ('The Fox') and Stan Jones (Alan's daddy). Background extras were drafted from Adelaide suburbs, police specially brought in from Uraidla and Lobethal. The vehicle in the background is a locally assembled 1950 Ford untility, the bridge was constructed for or by the Woodside Council. Next week I'll post a picture taken in the same spot last week:



That better, my Hawaiian friend?

[David McKinney]

I'll jump in now, as Milan's probably fast asleep...
Wasn't the Spotlight column in Australian Motor Sports, not Australian Motor Racing? The only AMR I can think of at that time were the annuals put out by, um, same lot who published Motor Manual - forgotten the name.

[Ray Bell]

Keith Windsor or Windser or Winser or something... yes, you're right, I hadn't gone back to the magazine he quoted, and this agrees with the brevity of that report, it was an annual rag with little to commend it except it was there and I wasn't!
I'm sure this clash between Jones and Whiteford resulted in a win for Jones (attributed to his limited slip diff) and a spin by Whiteford, and it could not have been earlier or later than the October 1951 meeting, there being no more meetings there after this, and Whiteford not having the car much before this time.

[David McKinney]

My earlier notes said Whiteford won both the preliminary scratch race and the Jubilee Handicap. Milan's result confirms we're talking about a handicap, which might mean the Large Tablet made fastest time on scratch. However, with Jones finishing second (on handicap) and Whiteford not in the top three, your scenario looks better

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Ray Bell That better, my Hawaiian friend?

Ray,
I am impressed. No problems this time. Very nice pic.

Do you know of any races held in Australia during the Thirties and Forties where Grand Prix/F Libre cars participated?

[Ray Bell]

Hans, apart from our Grand Prix from 1928 to 1935, it seems all races were for Formula Libre. The entry of Alfa P3s, the Monza, the odd Maserati, the ERA in a few and a couple of Altas, principally from 1938 onwards, would make a large list.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Ray,
I would like to read more about these Australian GP/Libre races of the Thirties and Forties. Would you please suggest where I best can educate myself about these events or would you rather start a new thread about Australian pre-war GP/Libre races?

GRAND PRIX RACING FACTS and FIGURES, by George Monkhouse shows just minor class cars (only the first three finishers) racing in handicap events, until the appearance of a Delahaye, driven by J. Crouch at the 1949 Australian GP at Leyburn. Was this Delahaye raced as a sports car or was it stripped of wings and lights?

[Ray Bell]

Hans, I am staggered that you should ask this when I have so frequently noted the importance of the book, "The Official 50-Race History of the Australian Grand Prix," and also John Medley's great book called "Bathurst - The Cradle of Australian Motor Racing."
Both are massive, loaded down with facts, figures and that other 'f' word, photographs. All are told in a readable fashion, as reports made in the day might have been.
The series I do for Motor Racing Australia, too, on closed circuits, covers the racing that took place then.
I can directly send you some of these stories, as they have the CDs from those magazines available and will happily send me back stories I wrote in the past.
There is the other side to the coin, too, or the other side to the continent... today I had a call from fellow contributor to that magazine, James Cockington, who is helping Jim Shepherd put together some speedway history.
In his digging he has come up with a 'Boys Own Annual' from 1949 which details a race at Albany in Western Australia (this was a ("a"?... the first!) 'round the houses' circuit of the type that blossomed in that part of the world) and he reckons there is so much detail that the writer just had to be present. He's sending me a copy and I will probably post it somewhere...
Nevertheless, Hans, it seems to me that you must have ignored AUSTRIA's thread about the Australian Grand Prix (recently resurrected) or thought it was too much to read, but it encapsulates the Grands Prix for you.
I guess much of the rest will fall into place between the Bathurst book (which retails for a mere $90, hurry before the exchange rate goes our way too much.. around 55 of your cents to our dollar at the moment) and those GP stories, and with the other stuff I can ultimately send you there would be little shortfall.
The rest Barry can do.

[Ray Bell]

I neglected to take a lot of notice of the second part of your post, Hans, and I can understand your question thoroughly.
But the GP was for under 2-litre cars only up until 1935, so wins by Bugatti Type 39s could hardly be classed as 'minor class'!
Please, Hans, acquaint (or re-acquaint) yourself with the fields of the ARCA in that period. You'll find there were many Austin 7s and little MGs in amongst the big guns, the factory Willys 77s...
This is the closest parallel I know of to Australian racing in that time. But then you must reduce the population on which the racing can draw by a factor of about ten and increase many of the costs because of Australia's less well developed industry and total reliance on imported cars and fuel, and add in the fact that the Depression lasted longer here.
1939 was the first year we saw serious imported cars in any sort of numbers, with the Delehaye (yes, always without the guards and lights) as seen here in John Snow's hands at Lobethal in 1939:



In that same race was the first of two P3s that came here, and the Monza that took out the lap record... by just that fraction from Kleinig's Hudson 8 Special based on an MG chassis, with oddball stuff to make it a real (2-seater) racer that nobody could ignore.
I would say, Hans, that you would look at our immediate post-war racing, as Graham Howard so often says in and out of the book, as being post-war/pre-war racing. The fields were much the same, the way of racing much the same, as it took much longer for Australia to find the money to field cars that were of the ilk that appeared in America in the 1948/49 period.
We had plenty of the MGs, sure, but our first Ferrari (I may be wrong here, and Barry can correct me if I am) was not seen until 1953/54.
The sole import of great distinction prior to this was the Lago Talbot, which required all of Whiteford's skill and cunning to get on top of the Studebaker front suspension, Lancia gearbox and Maybach scout car engine cobbled together by Charlie Dean for Stan Jones.
Of course, the onslaught began in earnest eventually, but the 1951 AGP was marked for its near-total reliance on Australian Specials. A Cooper 1100 ran away for a few laps, then the Delahaye seemed to have it licked, but a small mistake led to the incongruous situation where there were (Oh, I love this line!) four Ford V8 engines in the first three places!
Tragically, this terribly close and exciting race had been started as a handicap, even though its results were decreed by the powers that be to be determined by race times. 1949 was the first massed start for the AGP in the post-Phillip Island period, but it was another two years before it was repeated, such was the reluctance of organising clubs to accept that racing was growing up.
But when you look at the fields, you can surely understand.
The full 1951 field is posted in AUSTRIA's thread.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Ray,
Thanks a great bunch for your answer. I am still paying off my credit cards for the 1,800 photocopies I brought back from Europe. The great fun of indexing everything lies still ahead, but I completed already the year 1906, so at least I know what I haven’t got there. Book purchases have to wait till I am solvent again.

I will first look at the other thread of Australian races to get my education there.

[Ray Bell]

If you hunt through the archives, Hans, you'll also find a couple of threads on 'Australian Specials' that will give you some insight, and a lot of pictures.

[Ray Bell]

I went back just to get this picture, taken at Woodside in 1949. The race is on between Eldred Norman in the Double 8 (8.2 litres and a Dodge Scout Car chassis) and Lex Davison in the MG Spl built up from the TC that hit the Stobie pole at Lobethal.



The road is narrow, I must assume this is just arriving at the end of the ess bend and coming to the crossroads where they turned right towards the army camp. Caption in AMS says it's Pines Corner.

[David McKinney]

I wondered earlier about making a similar request to Hans’s.
My problem is that when I read about something, I always want to know more. I’ve got the AGP and Bathurst books, and all the 1940s and 1950s AMS’s, but there are frustrating references to 1930s races other than the AGP and the Bathurst meetings, and I want to know more about them. I’ll follow your suggestion about Australian Specials threads, but do you have any other suggestions?
Oh, and I’ve also got somewhere (in storage) a book called, I think, Around the Houses, which was about racing in WA.

[Ray Bell]

Around the Houses is a great addition to any library for the thirties through mid fifties. The magazine was unfortunately perfect bound with paper and glue that fall apart... I have a couple of them that are very delapidated.
But I use them all the time, too.
For the benefit of those unaware of this publication, it was released in 1979 having been compiled by the same Terry Walker who did the Fast Tracks book. He had come from WA but lived in Canberra when he completed it.
It covers in detail the AGPs held in WA, details the history of racing there from 1902 or something, has maps of all circuits, a brief history of racing on them complete with main race placings (no times), pictures from them all, details of major local races as held at Caversham and Wanneroo, a special section on the 6-hour race, and then there's the driver bios covering all the important drivers for the period.
It was published by Racing Car News and sold out, with remaindered copies being sent to Don Hall in WA for further sale and all going. Distribution was unfortunately too heavily weighted to the east coast, so Don had to chase copies down for years, but he did so and kept on selling them until they were all gone.
Other than that, I know only too well how hard it is to get information. When I do the Closed Circuit races I come up against this all the time, spending hours in public libraries looking up dates and newspapers.
One good source is The Referee, which had a motor sport page in every issue. I've yet to pursue it.
Mostly I use contacts with drivers and mechanics who survive, but they are thin on the ground these days, except for in WA.
Some mysteries remain, like the circuit at Rutherford (near Newcastle, NSW) and we're still to properly plumb the 1927 Australian Grand Prix at Goulburn.
One specific event I want more data on is the Victorian Centenary GP of 1934, but I don't expect that will be all that hard. Problem is, though, as you assert, other races were held at Phillip Island and they seemingly aren't listed anywhere.
I only heard for the first time, for instance, about the 1936 Australian TT a couple of months ago when I walked into The Garage Winery and looked at some newspaper clippings the Fagan family had found after mother had died.
I guess Barry knows more about these things, but with Peter Dale now gone, and Reg Nutt too, the links are falling out of the chain rapidly.
There are, of course, people like John Medley in the Historic movement who have stuff, and guard it preciously, fortunately. It's just that there's no central log of what there is about the place. I'm trying to get John onto this board to bring some stuff out, and I'm sure he'll make it one day.
Barry also did some work on a book recently for Pedr Davis or his son, and that covered some pre-war period, but I don't know its full scope.
James Cockington is likewise helping Jim Shepherd on this book about Speedways, which will begin around 1915 I imagine.

[TonyKaye]

Someone somewhere must have a full report on this unique Formula 1 race. So far we know that there were six contestants of which Doug Whiteford in the Talbot narrowly beat Stan Jones in the unsupercharged Maybach. But that's about it. Who were the other drivers, what did they drive, how many laps was the race, how long did it last etc etc??? Please don't let this thread sink into oblivion. A Formula 1 race in Australia is almost too good to be true.

[Ray Bell]

I have a photocopy of the AMS report here in my files, ah, yes, here it is. Cars mentioned are:

(heh heh heh, this is not what they'll expect the other side of the world!)

There were six starters and the race was over three and a half laps of about three miles each. Whiteford was obviously in the Lago and Jones in the Maybach, then Eldred Norman in the supercharged 6C Maserati (ex-Colin Murray, but now fitted with Norman's own cylinder heads and Singer rods), B. Dutton in an Alta, Denis Curran in a Ford V8 Special and Vin Maloney in a supercharged MG TC.

I would suggest that F1 would not have been stipulated if Norman was still running his Double 8...

Results: 1. Whiteford (Lago); 2. Jones (Maybach); 3. Norman (Maserati); 4. Dutton (Alta). Whiteford averaged 73.1 mph (I'll have to prove or disprove that...)

The main race was a 46-mile event for all cars, F1 and F2. Other starters (ie, the F2 cars) were MGs of Lex Davison, W. Craig, Steve Tillett, David Harvey, Bill Hayes, Miss J. Rackham, E. Parsons (Ted?... doubt it), R. Lindsay and Bob Brown. HRGs driven by Lou Molina, Reg Hunt and Jack O'Dea joined the Austin 7 in completing the field.

Results handicap): 1. Bob Brown (TC); 2. Jones (Maybach); 3. Miss J. Rackham (TC). Winner's average, 60.7mph. Fastest Lap: Jones, 74.1mph.
I'm sure this is the event where I read somewhere about the limited slip diff giving Jones an advantage, but the narrative here speaks only of Whiteford taking the lead over the railway crossing on Dugout Straight, which was immediately prior to the corner in our photo above.
Nevertheless, Whiteford was stretched at this meeting, for he spun off after locking a wheel in the handicap race, finishing up in the paddock behind where the camera was that took the Norman photo at Pines Corner.

Now, I have put that as a question... Was this the first F1 race run in Australia? There may have been others, but I've never heard of them.

[TonyKaye]

Thanks Ray,
Question about Bill Dutton's Alta. I have seen it described as the Alta V8 Special, but my understanding was that it had the regular 1096cc 4-cylinder Alta engine. At any rate what was its power plant at Woodside? Denis (or is it Dennis?) Curran's car was an also an extremely handsome special, so although the grid was small, it must have looked impressive.
How long was the Woodside circuit? I have a circuit map, but it doesn't give the distance. And I may have missed it somewhere in the thread, but what was the date of the race?

[fines]

What about the F2 race - more details?

[Ray Bell]

Circuit length... measured the other day, can't find notes, but it was ?.85km.. so maybe 4.85? That's close to three miles, isn't it?

Dutton's car? Don't know, but was it the car that Ted Gray drove? If it was, then V8 is more likely. If not, it may have been anything... it does look good in what I can see of the picture, but it's not worth scanning for you, and that doesn't resolve the engine issue.
I will add, though, that the descriptions of the cars make a point of saying s/c of the TC, and maybe that means it was a V8, for the 1100 engine would have to have been supercharged for it to be F1. But then again, it doesn't say s/c for Norman's....
Another car that didn't start was Spicer's Pete Special, fitted with with a 'high compression racing Lea Francis motor' - he crashed at that railway crossing in practice.
Whiteford, out of interest, didn't practice, but started from the front row because of his previous knowledge of the circuit. It mentions experience at previous 'meetihngs,' but I only know of one...
Martin, had trouble with his Cooper 1000 in practice as well, seeing as we're getting into this detail, and more importantly it mentions resurfacing in some parts of the circuit, and the breaking up of new sections 'making acceleration difficult' for the faster cars coming out of some corners.
The other noteworthy point is that the Maybach broke a gear, and Norman spent the night welding up said gear and filing or grinding the teeth into shape for him...

There's also a strong headwind up the main straight, slowing the cars...

The F2 race, though, was the Jubilee Woodside Formula 2 Race over 3.5 laps:
1. Reg Hunt (Hunt Vincent 1000 Spl) 66.6mph
2. Lex Davison (MG TC Spl)
3. David Harvey (MG TC)
4. Steve Tillett (MG TC)
Hunt cantered in, slowing on the last lap because of his long lead, aided in this by Martin stalling and being nudged off the grid by Davison. McEwin's and O'Dea's HRGs had been further up earlier in the race, and the field was strung out round half the circuit, which I would expect.
No mention of fastest lap. But I would say the SCC of SA would have the results in their library...

[Ray Bell]

Funny, you think you've got it all in there, and then you see something staring you in the face... I just noticed a name and car I didn't think I had listed in the F2 field... J. Klose in a Hotchkiss, then I saw that the list of 'electrically timed quarter mile speeds' also showed fastest lap times for most cars...
Whiteford and Jones did 2:25, Norman 2:34, Hunt 2:35, Dutton 2:44, Davison 2:48, Harvey 2:50, Miss Rackham 3:08 Harvey 2:50, Tillett 2:57, Brown 2:57.

From this it can be clearly seen why F1 and F2 was never going to work in Australia at that stage, even though this was hardly a representative field for the time. The fastest cars, the bigger ones, and we have to add in the 2.9 Alfa at this stage, were being caught up by the Cooper 1100s and so on (Crouch had been running away from everyone, admittedly with no Lago or Alfa or Maybach present) at Narrogin, and I think this makes the point.

[Milan Fistonic]

Originally posted by TonyKaye
How long was the Woodside circuit?

According to Australian Motor Racing 1950-51 the circuit was 2.99 miles per lap and the lap record was held at that time by Doug Whiteford (Ford Special) at 2 min 34 sec (70.1 m.p.h.)

[Ray Bell]

The publication you cite is an annual, with only the 1949 results to go by, and would have been released before this meeting, quite obviously. Loved those old annuals, the cars they had in them.
I must have gone the long way round, my lap distance was 3.01m... lapping in the reverse direction would make that difference, as you'd cut all the corners.
My distance would make the new (October, 1951) and final lap record 74.58mph.

[TonyKaye]

How come the Formula 1 race was three and a half (exactly a half?) laps long?
Was it like the Cart race at Mid-Ohio where they start the race on the back straightaway. In most Cart races nowadays about a third of the cars are destroyed at the first corner. By starting on the back straight the annual crash takes place at the Esses, where it can be enjoyed by a large proportion of the spectators, rather than just after the pits where there's hardly anyone to appreciate it. Ironically this ensures that more cars are running at the end of the race than in most other Cart races. The secret is that the Esses are so far from the pits that it takes the first third of the race to clear up the mess. This segment is run under a full course yellow during which time very few of the contestants have further altercations.
When the green flag is finally waved they immediately have another major crash, so the second third of the race is run under the yellow as well. It's a bit like Formula 1 really except that in F1 the rules don't permit drivers to overtake each other, so they don't need a yellow flag.

Back to Woodside, at approximately 10.5 miles it must have been one of the shortest F1 races ever. Can anyone think of a shorter one?

[David McKinney]

Ray Bell -
The report Milan posted suggested (without actually saying so) that Keith Martin finished second in the F2 race, but your results say otherwise. Presumably the Cooper failed to finish?
Tony Kaye -
You're an old cynic!

[Ray Bell]

Interesting... I also wondered about the starting point, but not that deeply. Now you force my hand, I look at the photo of the cars on the grid, and lo... I see by comparing with another photo that the start was at the top of Dugout Straight, which was the very narrow road (and they lined up two abreast!) that led from the Army camp back to the main road. This would not be 'exactly 3.5 laps' I wouldn't think, but perhaps more like 3.4 laps or a bit less.
This would presumably been because the pits were removed from the finish, which would have been better reserved for spectators. The presence of the railway line through that area might have had some bearing, and it's possible the motorcycle pits may have been at the finish line.
As for short F1 races, Adelaide had another short one of those, but it would be hard to find a shorter one, I would think.
As for Martin finishing, it's not clear that he even started, for he - as mentioned - stalled on the line, and there is not another word about him in the whole report, and his name doesn't appear on that list of speeds and times either.
In fact, the only two mentions of him are negative, his blow up on practice day with the subsequent flying of a replacement over from Melbourne overnight, and then stalling on the grid.
And now something further strikes me... in the photo caption on a picture of two MGs I see that neither of the names of the drivers are among those listed, either. In other words R. Angas and D. Cant have to be added to the F2 field, Angas in a TD, both cars being stripped of guards, bonnet sides and lights.

[Milan Fistonic]

Ray

I've been trying to e-mail you a circuit map of Woodside but it keeps getting sent back. I've sent it to Darren Galpin but I don't know if he's added to his site yet.

[Darren Galpin]

Milan - the maps are on my PC at home. I'll try and deal with them this weekend....

[TonyKaye]

Ray, after all the information you have provided about Woodside, I'm loathe to ask for further clarification. However I am puzzled by the apparently conflicting information in two of your postings re the Formula 2 race.

"HRGs driven by Lou Molina, Reg Hunt and Jack O'Dea joined the Austin 7 in completing the field."

"... the Jubilee Woodside Formula 2 Race over 3.5 laps:
1. Reg Hunt (Hunt Vincent 1000 Spl) 66.6mph"

Was Reg Hunt in his special, which seems most likely, or an HRG? And if not Hunt, who was in the second Herg? And who drove the Austin 7?

[fines]

Ray, could you do me a favour and delete the pic in the original post? Because it's oversize it defaces the layout of the page and takes hours (well, almost a minute!) to load! There's no need to have it twice in the same thread, is there?

[Ray Bell]

Anything you ask, Michael, it's now done.

Hunt may well have had his car referred to as an 'HRD' and then somebody proof reading the thing has altered it to 'HRG'. I've only brought the information over straight from the AMS report, and I know little or nothing about these drives and this era, so couldn't correct. it.
I would say that's the most likely thing, that the Hunt-Vincent had a Vincent HRD engine.

[Graham Clayton]

I have just discovered the thread about the Australian
specials and races of the 30's, 40's and 50's.

In regard to unusual vehicles, a Morgan 3 wheeler raced
in the 1948 AGP at Point Cook, while at the Bathurst
Easter meeting of 1940, visting American speedway
driver Paul Swedberg entered his 1750cc Offenhauser
powered midget/speecar against the road racing
cars

[Ray Bell]

Unless I'm mistaken, Swedberg also raced at Albury that same year. And I think John Snow (or someone of that gang) drove this same car somewhere, too. Or maybe that was at Albury (Wirlinga)?
In my eyes, however, this doesn't rate as a Special, nor does the Morgan.
Specials were necessarily cobbled up things, like cut down Ford V8s and the like, even more so the mixtures you find, like the Ballot Olds and the Regal Cadillac.

[275 GTB-4]

Two South Australian drivers passed away this year....

Greg McEwin 1927-2006 in November (HRG, Mac Healey, Mini Cooper S)

John Taylor 1937-2006 in October (Hudson Terraplane, A30, A40, A55, Taylor JAP, Minis)

[Ray Bell]

Neither of whom raced at Woodside...

Is that right?

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Neither of whom raced at Woodside...

Is that right?

No its not....I did a quick search, but as is often the case on this great shambles of information called a forum....I could not find the terrific shot of Greg McEwin (HRG) leading Stan Jones at Woodside.

[Nanni Dietrich]

...

Also happening at Woodside was a tragic accident in a motorcycle race where an early starter came round to complete his first lap before the scratch men had got away. Somehow he killed two people in the starting area, leading to the ban on public road circuits that was imposed the following year, the death of Lobethal coming with this ban.

...
[p][Edited by Ray Bell on 01-16-2001]

From an old old thread...

Ray, this is the accident which happened at Woodside on 10 October 1949
http://www.motorspor...hp?db=ms&n=9698
a rider, Roland H. King and a spectator, Raymond Brown, lost their lives.