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Banker arrested on bribery charges (merged)


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#351 Sakae

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 05:45

BE is a man of respected age. He could be persuaded by his commercial partners to retire, and focus in privacy on resolving his private affairs out of F1 arena. Currently he is in spotlight, and then, there are the commercial issue with Mercedes with legal implications, should he be convicted. It would be best for all if he takes a leave of absence until matter is resolved, or retire altogether.

Edited by Sakae, 24 July 2012 - 05:46.


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#352 TriumphST

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:20

Bernie's absence also noted on BBC Radio 5 - and the same speculation in the paddock. The judge's sum up at the trial was fairly damning after all.


Better to look on the 'google.de' for up to date news on Ecclestone and translate, there are several sources and 'www.sueddeutsche.de/' always seen ahead of the game having followed the process from the beginning.

Joe's always a little late and then quite selective. Real question is where is Ecclestone and what made him miss several important meetings over the weekend. Is there something he knows thats making him afraid to travel to Germany?

There's little doubt Ecclestone's been firmly in the German Prosecutors sights from the first charge against Gribkowsky as was expected I think. Still the paddock and reporting which is dependent on paddock passes rarely report on the issue.



#353 TriumphST

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:42

BE is a man of respected age. He could be persuaded by his commercial partners to retire, and focus in privacy on resolving his private affairs out of F1 arena. Currently he is in spotlight, and then, there are the commercial issue with Mercedes with legal implications, should he be convicted. It would be best for all if he takes a leave of absence until matter is resolved, or retire altogether.


Given the German Prosecutors tenacity building a case against Gribkowsky and by implication Ecclestone, a case incidentally which most F1 pundits predicted would fail, retirement nor age won't exempt Ecclestone from joining Gribkowsky in jail.

Or CVC being held accountable once Ecclestone does the same as Gribkowsky and plea bargains away some jail time. Something I've always maintained Gribkowsky would eventually do once the reality of jail time was staring him in the face.

Whats occurring with CVC now is like rats deserting the ship thats F1, they're getting their money out as quickly as they can. However no-one in the mainstream wants to buy and the IOP has been shelved because of lack of interest, which leaves vulture hedge funds buying at a discount in the hope of getting a return when the dust settles.

#354 F1ultimate

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:27

Or CVC being held accountable once Ecclestone does the same as Gribkowsky and plea bargains away some jail time. Something I've always maintained Gribkowsky would eventually do once the reality of jail time was staring him in the face.


Bernie is a spineless rat and you can bet on him squealing as loud as he can while he's being dragged to jail, so it's in CVC's interest to make sure he doesn't run his mouth in court.

#355 FredF1

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 11:29

Bernie is a spineless rat and you can bet on him squealing as loud as he can while he's being dragged to jail, so it's in CVC's interest to make sure he doesn't run his mouth in court.



His excuse was priceless though.

Some mild-mannered banker showed up at my door and I was so afraid of him that I gave him 30-odd million just to go away and leave me alone

I suggest we all call round to Bernie's, shake our fists at him and maybe give him a dirty look. We'll all be rich I tell you.



#356 Sakae

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:06

Given the German Prosecutors tenacity building a case against Gribkowsky and by implication Ecclestone, a case incidentally which most F1 pundits predicted would fail, retirement nor age won't exempt Ecclestone from joining Gribkowsky in jail.


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. His departure however might force Mercedes to make a deal with a new party, and according to their own corporate constitution they would not have to nulify any deal they otherwise (I think) would have to, if deal was struck with a convicted felon. I am not into detail of it to fully understand all nuances, but right now in my understanding a new deal with BE might be a risky proposition for Mercedes's future in F1, regardless if they win or losse the WDD/WCC titles, or what the Board decides. If there is conviction, this will be pretty dicey situation.

Edited by Sakae, 24 July 2012 - 12:06.


#357 matzy

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:51

Apparently both are under investigation, HMRC for Ecclestone and the Fraud Squad for Barclays.

I'm always pleased to see justice in the process of being done and see no reason why Ecclestone should not be tried and given a similar sentence to Gribkowsky. Don't think Eccleston's criminal activity is a 'victimless crime' it's not and while mainstream bankers (re: 08 financial crash) may have been incompetent their actions were also not victimless but as far as I'm aware neither were they criminal. When they are found to be so I expect appropriately prosecuted, where they are incompetent I'd expect them to be sacked.

Though you trawl a little way back, but nowhere will you find anywhere that I don't advocate that criminal action shouldn't face the full weight of the law. In the Ecclestone case as with my comments on Murdoch and NI, even the Ian Tomlinson death at the G20 protest plus several other topics I'm consistent.


If you wish to discuss bankers this really isn't the forum is it?

As to the length of the queue I think having over 7 years is long enough to contemplate the knock on the door, so can we please get on with it if only because justice has to be seen to be done even to ageing billionaires.


I think the SFO are looking at other ways to raise criminal charges regarding the LIBOR scandal, because unfortunately the anti-fraud legislation we have doesn't appear to expressly cover fiddling the inter-bank rates. I hope they find some avenue of attack, because right now it looks to me as if the bankers in question may get off on a technicality.

Oh, and I believe HMRC are simply checking into whether Bernie has paid all the tax he should of, considering Bernie's own suggestion that Gribkowsky was blackmailing him about his tax affairs. One way or another, I don't think this is over for Bernie quite yet. You are right though ... perhaps some of these points are a bit off topic ;)

Edited by matzy, 24 July 2012 - 12:52.


#358 TriumphST

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 15:20

Bernie is a spineless rat and you can bet on him squealing as loud as he can while he's being dragged to jail, so it's in CVC's interest to make sure he doesn't run his mouth in court.


You're probably right, certainly I've always been incredulous at the public exclamations from the paddock of Ecclestone's prowess, cleverness or deal making skill.

Ecclestone was in an environment where he pulled strings others dangled and negotiating from such a position of strength with others who'd rather cut a competitor's throat then work for the common good was just too easy for a second hand car dealer not to exploit. So yes animal cunning but intellect..... no.

And in regard to CVC I'd agree with you simply because, Ecclestone wouldn't have gone to the trouble of bribing Gribkowsky just to balance the books i.e $50m from BE to GG and $60m from BayernLB to Bambimo.

Ecclestone would have to benefit by more then a job offer, and to do that CVC must have incentivised him with a deal based on shares in the fund in proportion to the savings made between the acquisition cost $1.8b over the market value $4b+.

And thats the reason you don't see an accurate shareholder listing, indeed CVC are selling off the business as soon as they can to further muddy the waters.

#359 TriumphST

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 15:26

I think the SFO are looking at other ways to raise criminal charges regarding the LIBOR scandal, because unfortunately the anti-fraud legislation we have doesn't appear to expressly cover fiddling the inter-bank rates. I hope they find some avenue of attack, because right now it looks to me as if the bankers in question may get off on a technicality.

Oh, and I believe HMRC are simply checking into whether Bernie has paid all the tax he should of, considering Bernie's own suggestion that Gribkowsky was blackmailing him about his tax affairs. One way or another, I don't think this is over for Bernie quite yet. You are right though ... perhaps some of these points are a bit off topic ;)


There I was hoping it was the relationship of his links to Bambino trust which would have voided its trust (and not as in error stated charitable) status and left an enormous tax bill......

Edit: On the bankers I certainly hope not, but there was some news on guilty verdicts on a ring of insider dealings yesterday and apparently HMRC are recruiting more specialists to police the tax evasion and hopefully avoidance schemes.

Edited by TriumphST, 25 July 2012 - 21:48.


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#360 matzy

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:55

There I was hoping it was the relationship of his links to Bambino trust which would have voided its charitable status and left an enormous tax bill......

Edit: On the bankers I certainly hope not, but there was some news on guilty verdicts on a ring of insider dealings yesterday and apparently HMRC are recruiting more specialists to police the tax evasion and hopefully avoidance schemes.


Oh well HMRC may well be looking into that as well, of course. I just doubt they will be looking into the bribe side of things, as I cannot imagine that is within their jurisdiction. That being said, HMRC can make life very difficult for Bernie and he had better hope all is in order :D

#361 One

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 13:15

Still I cannot agree to put someone in jail just because he paid his tax late. Refused to pay till his death is something else.
None wants to pay tax isn't it? Question is how you set up your business in order for him to be able pay as little relevant tax as possible, that is all part of our capitalistic economy... IMHO...

Edited by One, 25 July 2012 - 13:17.


#362 Sakae

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 13:32

Still I cannot agree to put someone in jail just because he paid his tax late. Refused to pay till his death is something else.
None wants to pay tax isn't it? Question is how you set up your business in order for him to be able pay as little relevant tax as possible, that is all part of our capitalistic economy... IMHO...

Little OT, but please realize that if you don't pay tax (or very little of what's due), than someone else has to pick the difference. Some of us (stupidly honest taxpayers) are genuinely p***ed on smart alecs who know how to weasel out from some basic civic obligations.

#363 Gareth

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 13:46

Bambino trust which would have voided its charitable status and left an enormous tax bill......

Surely Bambino isn't a charitable trust?

It's doing things like avoiding inheritence tax that's the issue, isn't it?

#364 BRG

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 19:17

I am waiting for David Cameron to pontificate about Bernie being morally wrong for his tax avoidance structures. After all, he makes Jimmy Carr look like Mother Theresa in this respect.

#365 TriumphST

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 21:41

Surely Bambino isn't a charitable trust?

It's doing things like avoiding inheritence tax that's the issue, isn't it?


Sorry a mental aberration, the 'charitable' slipped in.

#366 blackhand2010

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:43

Article from The Economist on the bankers, Bernie and CVC

#367 TriumphST

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 07:39

Things have gone a little quiet since Gerhard Gribkowsky was sent down with little movement on any Ecclestone arrest imminent, however there are report's in a couple of german rags on the 24th Sept concerning Ecclestone.

Apparently BayernLB have requested some 20 files of documents from the Munich Prosecutors office from the Gribkowsky case on the basis that the undervaluation can be proven and will form the civil case against Ecclestone et al. Ecclestone's lawyers have challenged the release of said documents and the case will soon be scheduled for the court. But BayernLB are set to reclaim hundreds of millions apparently.

Also on the reimbursement trail are Constantin Medien who are already suing Ecclestone/Mullens/CVC in the UK High Court for $100m are now making a similar disclosure request to the German Prosecutor, a request Ecclestone has also challenged, so another hearing.

Wonder if Lehman's and how many more will join in?

Also wondering when the German's will apply for a European Arrest Warrant for Ecclestone who's been keeping a low profile over the last few months?


#368 ayali

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 08:38

Things have gone a little quiet since Gerhard Gribkowsky was sent down with little movement on any Ecclestone arrest imminent, however there are report's in a couple of german rags on the 24th Sept concerning Ecclestone.

Dunno which German "rags" you get your information from but the Suddeutsche (not a rag) paints rather a very different story than you portray.

Yes BayernLB have requested the 20 files from the prosecutor and Bernie has challenged the release, however these files are to be used in recuperating the 41 million euro commission that BayernLB paid to Ecclestone and not with the alleged undervaluation you claim.

In fact BayernLB explicitly state that they (contrary to Constantin) don't think undervaluation took place and believe the shares in F1 were then worth between 756 and 1,276 millon dollar and that the sale of the shares at 825 million dollars was well within that range.

Die BayernLB sieht derzeit, anders als die Constantin, keine Anhaltspunkte für einen zu billigen Verkauf der Formel 1. Das besagte Gutachten habe schließlich ergeben, dass der eigene Anteil an der Rennserie damals zwischen 756 Millionen und 1,276 Milliarden Dollar wert gewesen sei. Und der Verkaufspreis von 825 Millionen Dollar habe nun einmal in dieser Spanne gelegen.

So a possible claim from BayernLB is over the 41 million commission which is for Bernie pocket change frankly, assuming that many years from now after many appeals a judge awards that money to BayernLB.

Perhaps you lost something in translation?
Here's a link to the article in the Suddeutsche
http://www.sueddeuts...stone-1.1477672?

#369 MustangSally

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 15:03

Perhaps you lost something in translation?


It's a very tough case for Bayern to argue, since their own annual report states that the sale was brilliant and 'contributed significantly to their results' and, if it didn't contribute as much as it should, the bank is collectively responsible for its own poor valuers and negotiators.

The same is true of the other bankers (Lehman) involved in the sale of SLEC shares at the time. They signed off on what they believed the shares were worth at the time. And they pay very high-salaried people to assess these things. Their problem if they got it wrong.






#370 BRG

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 16:00

Their problem if they got it wrong.

They are banks. It is never their problem if they get it wrong.

#371 Tommorris747

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 19:43

Dunno which German "rags" you get your information from but the Suddeutsche (not a rag) paints rather a very different story than you portray.


Maybe TriumphST is not a German speaker? This is not covered in the English medias and it is hard to follow anyway!

#372 TriumphST

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 20:20

Dunno which German "rags" you get your information from but the Suddeutsche (not a rag) paints rather a very different story than you portray.

Yes BayernLB have requested the 20 files from the prosecutor and Bernie has challenged the release, however these files are to be used in recuperating the 41 million euro commission that BayernLB paid to Ecclestone and not with the alleged undervaluation you claim.

In fact BayernLB explicitly state that they (contrary to Constantin) don't think undervaluation took place and believe the shares in F1 were then worth between 756 and 1,276 millon dollar and that the sale of the shares at 825 million dollars was well within that range.


So a possible claim from BayernLB is over the 41 million commission which is for Bernie pocket change frankly, assuming that many years from now after many appeals a judge awards that money to BayernLB.

Perhaps you lost something in translation?
Here's a link to the article in the Suddeutsche
http://www.sueddeuts...stone-1.1477672?


We undoubtedly have differing criteria on what constitutes a 'rag'. I'll stick with my own if that's OK with you.

You express a view similar to Ecclestone's much later statements when you say BayernLB expressed relief/pleasure with their ROI. You pointedly ignore the furore that would erupt years later when Gribkowsky would be arrested, most thought the case would collapse and Ecclestone exonerated, it didn't of course and he wasn't, furthermore he's now vulnerable. Just as important it led the bank to question Gribkowsky's flawed advice and their decision making process.

Certainly as a result of the last eighteen months investigation and subsequent trial, BayernLB is now in the process of assessing their position in the light of the courtroom revelations. Just as Morgans, Lehmans, Constantin Medien and the Kirch estate will, if not already doing so, and that will be the reasoning behind the disclosure request, just as it is for Constantin Medien (who are not disputing any $40m+ commission). It is worth mentioning in the light of those revelations the commission paid will only be 'small change' and not the main focus for BayernLB.


Thank you for the link, however I'd have thought it obvious that I had been there amongst others.

I am however, at a loss to comprehend just what was 'raison d'être' behind the offer and acceptance which led to Gribkowsky spending up to eight and a half years incarcerated and Ecclestone to flirt with arrest and ruin?
Acceptance that Grigkowsky finally came clean and Ecclestone lied at various points in the process have you a plausible theory that doesn't contradict Gribkowsky, of what underscored the exercise?

Couldn't be massively undervaluing F1 could it, and why in the light of better analysis the two organisations are now exploring the possibility of redress....

Maybe CVC's extraordinary current value of the commercial rights at $10b an almost sixfold increase over what was paid in 2005 without any material change in the business model could that provide a clue. Indeed it might lead one (in the light of whats occurred in Germany), to link the bribery of Gribkowsky by Ecclestone to the essentially astounding increase in the asset value.

And provide a compelling motive for the bribe.

#373 jjcale

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 20:30

Things have gone a little quiet since Gerhard Gribkowsky was sent down with little movement on any Ecclestone arrest imminent, however there are report's in a couple of german rags on the 24th Sept concerning Ecclestone.

Apparently BayernLB have requested some 20 files of documents from the Munich Prosecutors office from the Gribkowsky case on the basis that the undervaluation can be proven and will form the civil case against Ecclestone et al. Ecclestone's lawyers have challenged the release of said documents and the case will soon be scheduled for the court. But BayernLB are set to reclaim hundreds of millions apparently.

Also on the reimbursement trail are Constantin Medien who are already suing Ecclestone/Mullens/CVC in the UK High Court for $100m are now making a similar disclosure request to the German Prosecutor, a request Ecclestone has also challenged, so another hearing.

Wonder if Lehman's and how many more will join in?

Also wondering when the German's will apply for a European Arrest Warrant for Ecclestone who's been keeping a low profile over the last few months?


Civil case is just the latest in a long line .... criminal prosecution is the only thing that I would get excited over - and ATM that does not look like its happening ... again.

Edited by jjcale, 26 September 2012 - 20:31.


#374 ayali

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 20:53

We undoubtedly have differing criteria on what constitutes a 'rag'. I'll stick with my own if that's OK with you.

Sure please do so but perhaps in future include some links to the "rags" you get your information from because it seems this time you've massively misunderstood what BayernLB is aiming at currently.

A friendly and free advice please separate FACT and opinion or preferred outcome.
There's just a civil dispute over some files that might help to reclaim the 41 million fee paid to Bernie, BayernLB are not contesting the valuation of the shares and there's no wondering about WHEN but rather IF there will be an arrest warrant.



#375 ayali

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 20:55

Civil case is just the latest in a long line .... criminal prosecution is the only thing that I would get excited over - and ATM that does not look like its happening ... again.

Ditto


#376 TriumphST

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 21:29

Civil case is just the latest in a long line .... criminal prosecution is the only thing that I would get excited over - and ATM that does not look like its happening ... again.


As I recall Gribkowsky was never going down.

#377 TriumphST

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 21:33

Sure please do so but perhaps in future include some links to the "rags" you get your information from because it seems this time you've massively misunderstood what BayernLB is aiming at currently.

A friendly and free advice please separate FACT and opinion or preferred outcome.
There's just a civil dispute over some files that might help to reclaim the 41 million fee paid to Bernie, BayernLB are not contesting the valuation of the shares and there's no wondering about WHEN but rather IF there will be an arrest warrant.


Perhaps you could look beyond the headline rather then regurgitating the obvious then try forming an opinion.

#378 jjcale

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 21:34

As I recall Gribkowsky was never going down.


You missed my weaselly "ATM"  ;) .... I'm not falling into that trap again. Besides, I'm watching this with popcorn by my side.



#379 TriumphST

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 21:44

You missed my weaselly "ATM" ;) .... I'm not falling into that trap again. Besides, I'm watching this with popcorn by my side.


Enjoy :wave:

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#380 ayali

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 22:16

Perhaps you could look beyond the headline rather then regurgitating the obvious then try forming an opinion.

LOL I'm not the one unable to look beyond the headline, have a crappy understanding of German articles or a personal agenda in this matter.
Just stick to the facts Triumph, provide a link once in a while and try to keep what you wish for and what is actually happening separated.

TA

#381 MustangSally

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 22:40

Enjoy :wave:


Well, it is fascinating.

I really don't understand how the bank can bring a case where it was itself corporately responsible . . . Gribkwosky was an employee after all.

About undervalued . . . it is purely about the time that they were sold. Of course it was peanuts that they received from CVC . . in comparison to the original value of the Kirsch holding or later . . . but there were no higher bidders at the time.

Bayern, Lehman et al should have sat on the shares in hindsight . . . but chose not to. That's business isn't it, not a criminal offence?






#382 ayali

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 09:49

Joe Saward on the matter:

The most important one is a news report from Germany that the Bavarian prosecution service will soon be indicting Bernie Ecclestone in the case of Gerhard Gribkowsky. The stories were published in Süddeutsche Zeitung, which has proven to be a fairly accurate chronicler of the situation from the start, with obvious connections in the Bavarian prosecution service.


http://joesaward.wor...dering-stories/

#383 Tommorris747

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 22:08

Sure please do so but perhaps in future include some links to the "rags" you get your information from because it seems this time you've massively misunderstood what BayernLB is aiming at currently.

A friendly and free advice please separate FACT and opinion or preferred outcome.
There's just a civil dispute over some files that might help to reclaim the 41 million fee paid to Bernie, BayernLB are not contesting the valuation of the shares and there's no wondering about WHEN but rather IF there will be an arrest warrant.

The reports say exactly this: BayernLB does NOT think the shares were undervalued so they would be lucky to get the fee back! They admit that the sale was for a good price so why should they get the fee back which was part of this deal? :confused: It doesn't look like BayernLB or the prosecutors have even taken legal steps against Ecclestone so these reports seem to be nothing more than Daily Mail (and SZ) rumour

#384 scheivlak

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 22:18

Bayern, Lehman et al should have sat on the shares in hindsight . . . but chose not to. That's business isn't it, not a criminal offence?

The case not about the deal itself.

It's about bribing a public official with 44 million dollars: http://www.sueddeuts...chwer-1.1478786

Edited by scheivlak, 27 September 2012 - 22:24.


#385 scheivlak

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 22:21

The reports say exactly this: BayernLB does NOT think the shares were undervalued so they would be lucky to get the fee back! They admit that the sale was for a good price so why should they get the fee back which was part of this deal? :confused: It doesn't look like BayernLB or the prosecutors have even taken legal steps against Ecclestone so these reports seem to be nothing more than Daily Mail (and SZ) rumour


The SZ is not the Daily Mail!

It's possibly more thorough and 'safe' in its reporting than maybe any British newspaper.

#386 Tommorris747

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 23:18

The SZ is not the Daily Mail!

It's possibly more thorough and 'safe' in its reporting than maybe any British newspaper.

There is no point in this being for discussion because the SZ newspaper is so clear in its claims about Ecclestone:

Nun muss der Brite mit einer Anklage wegen Bestechung rechnen.
Now the Briton must deal with an indictment for bribery
http://www.sueddeuts...stone-1.1477672

If that happens then I will agree with you. If that does not happen then the SZ is no better (if not worse) than the Mail.

#387 Hippo

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 23:41

There is no point in this being for discussion because the SZ newspaper is so clear in its claims about Ecclestone:

Nun muss der Brite mit einer Anklage wegen Bestechung rechnen.
Now the Briton must deal with an indictment for bribery
http://www.sueddeuts...stone-1.1477672

If that happens then I will agree with you. If that does not happen then the SZ is no better (if not worse) than the Mail.

Well, they already judged Gribkowsky guilty. And in German law both parties are equally guilty in a bribery. So they are practically forced to go after Ecclestone. Only if they can't find enough evidence to sue Ecclestone they'd not do it. But that is not the case here. Except for a political backdoor exit there is really nothing that could help Ecclestone.

#388 Tommorris747

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 00:25

Well, they already judged Gribkowsky guilty. And in German law both parties are equally guilty in a bribery. So they are practically forced to go after Ecclestone. Only if they can't find enough evidence to sue Ecclestone they'd not do it. But that is not the case here. Except for a political backdoor exit there is really nothing that could help Ecclestone.


Then why have the German authorities not even charged Ecclestone yet even though it is months after Gribkowsky was found guilty and nearly two years after Gribkowsky was arrested? They know that Ecclestone will be going to countries soon which have no extradition treaties with Germany (Brazil, Abu Dhabi, South Korea etc). Are they waiting to lodge an arrest warrant until he is there?! In contrast, they arrested Gribkowsky within a week of discovering his involvement with the money transfer.

If Ecclestone gets arrested I will eat my hat.

Edited by Tommorris747, 28 September 2012 - 00:26.


#389 Ellios

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 21:39

Fresh press reports today from the BBC:

The Bavarian prosecution service plans to indict Bernie Ecclestone in the case of the disgraced banker Gerhard Gribkowsky

Gribkowsky, has been convicted of taking bribes from the Formula 1 boss. The key evidence is their contention that Ecclestone knew Gribkowsky was a public official


links to (http://www.sueddeutsche.de) German:

http://tinyurl.com/bwc8vta

#390 scheivlak

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 22:54

There is no point in this being for discussion because the SZ newspaper is so clear in its claims about Ecclestone:

Nun muss der Brite mit einer Anklage wegen Bestechung rechnen.
Now the Briton must deal with an indictment for bribery
http://www.sueddeuts...stone-1.1477672

If that happens then I will agree with you. If that does not happen then the SZ is no better (if not worse) than the Mail.

Just a slight note:
"Nun muss der Brite mit einer Anklage wegen Bestechung rechnen." IMHO rather means "Now the Briton has to count on (=expect) an indictment for bribary".

I think that's a reasonable way of explaining how thing stand.

#391 Tommorris747

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 23:11

Just a slight note:
"Nun muss der Brite mit einer Anklage wegen Bestechung rechnen." IMHO rather means "Now the Briton has to count on (=expect) an indictment for bribary".

I think that's a reasonable way of explaining how thing stand.

You are right so I will re-phrase my point.

If Ecclestone gets indicted then the SZ was right. If Ecclestone does not get an indictment then the SZ was wrong to say that he can expect it to happen. This would mean that the SZ is no better (if not worse) than the Mail.

#392 scheivlak

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:22

You are right so I will re-phrase my point.

If Ecclestone gets indicted then the SZ was right. If Ecclestone does not get an indictment then the SZ was wrong to say that he can expect it to happen. This would mean that the SZ is no better (if not worse) than the Mail.

You still don't get it.

Edited by scheivlak, 29 September 2012 - 08:22.


#393 mtdd

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:21

Gribowsky accepts having received money from Ecclestone; Ecclestone admits having paid it. Gribowsky says it was a bribe; Ecclestone says it was a shake-down. Let the court decide; and if it decides that it was bribery to a public official, then I think Ecclestone does face jail time.

#394 MustangSally

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 18:21

Gribowsky accepts having received money from Ecclestone; Ecclestone admits having paid it. Gribowsky says it was a bribe; Ecclestone says it was a shake-down. Let the court decide; and if it decides that it was bribery to a public official, then I think Ecclestone does face jail time.


Isn't the 40 million still frozen under claim by Bayern?

And if Bayern is now not contesting the valuation nor the commission to Bernie (both of which were signed off corporately by the bank), why does it have a right to the 40 million? Doesn't this just mean that they are collecting the alleged bribe/proceeds of crime instead of Grib?

I think I've lost the plot now. This is an inept, bungling bank that had to be bailed for billions by the German taxpayer making a show trial out of an issue where it actually can't prove it lost money at all.

It lost billions buying US junk bonds and the ill-considered purchase of an Austrian bank.

Edited by MustangSally, 29 September 2012 - 18:23.


#395 scheivlak

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 18:41

Isn't the 40 million still frozen under claim by Bayern?

And if Bayern is now not contesting the valuation nor the commission to Bernie (both of which were signed off corporately by the bank), why does it have a right to the 40 million? Doesn't this just mean that they are collecting the alleged bribe/proceeds of crime instead of Grib?

I think I've lost the plot now. This is an inept, bungling bank that had to be bailed for billions by the German taxpayer making a show trial out of an issue where it actually can't prove it lost money at all.

It lost billions buying US junk bonds and the ill-considered purchase of an Austrian bank.

It's not about money now, it's about crime.

It's not Bank versus Bernie, it's Justice versus Bernie now.

#396 Tommorris747

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 18:58

It's not Bank versus Bernie, it's Justice versus Bernie now.


No it is not. The only case against Ecclestone is from Constantin Medien. In response to your previous post, if there is no case by the bank against Ecclestone then it was wrong of the SZ to say he could expect it happening. That is no different to the Mail (or any other paper) saying that we can expect to see Elvis taking a trip to the Eifel Tower tomorrow. Wrong is wrong no matter what the content is.

Edited by Tommorris747, 29 September 2012 - 18:59.


#397 scheivlak

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 19:09

No it is not. The only case against Ecclestone is from Constantin Medien. In response to your previous post, if there is no case by the bank against Ecclestone then it was wrong of the SZ to say he could expect it happening. That is no different to the Mail (or any other paper) saying that we can expect to see Elvis taking a trip to the Eifel Tower tomorrow. Wrong is wrong no matter what the content is.


"Die Staatsanwaltschaft will nach dem derzeitigen Stand der Dinge ihre Ermittlung gegen Ecclestone wegen Schmiergeldzahlungen an den Amtsträger Gribkowsky im Herbst abschließen und den Renn-Chef anklagen." http://www.sueddeuts...chwer-1.1478786

That's the prosecution :wave:

#398 MustangSally

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 19:12

It's not about money now, it's about crime.

It's not Bank versus Bernie, it's Justice versus Bernie now.


Thanks . . . I've been away and only just reading up on this.

The focus appears to have shifted entirely. When it began, it was definitely about a 2.7bn shareholding that wound up being sold for 900m.

So, basically, Bayern LB has wasted even more public money?











#399 Tommorris747

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 19:12

"Die Staatsanwaltschaft will nach dem derzeitigen Stand der Dinge ihre Ermittlung gegen Ecclestone wegen Schmiergeldzahlungen an den Amtsträger Gribkowsky im Herbst abschließen und den Renn-Chef anklagen." http://www.sueddeuts...chwer-1.1478786

That's the prosecution :wave:

No, that's what the SZ says. Two VERY different things! Neither the prosecutors nor BayernLB has started proceedings against Ecclestone which makes it completely false to say that it's Justice versus Bernie now. The only proceedings against Ecclestone so far have been brought by Constantin Medien in the UK.

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#400 scheivlak

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 19:17

No, that's what the SZ says. Two VERY different things! Neither the prosecutors nor BayernLB has started proceedings against Ecclestone which makes it completely false to say that it's Justice versus Bernie now. The only proceedings against Ecclestone so far have been brought by Constantin Medien in the UK.

I was only explaining "Mustang Sally" what it's all about now. And now it's about whether the prosecution will charge Bernie or not, as the SZ explains.