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Harry Smith - Australian Grand Prix, 1951


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#401 Terry Walker

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 07:44

I just had a thought (I get them occasionally, very scarey) and it looks like I'll have to cruise into the State Library and look up a Perth Post Office Guide for 1950 or 51, look in Welshpool, find the name of the business Harry Smith ran. Also, if available, electoral rolls for 1950 or 51. Too many Smiths no doubt. But the electoral rolls used to show occupation, which is a very handy clue. How many Harold Smiths were panel beaters or coach builders that year? Chances are also that at that time Smith may have lived on or close to premises - it was semi rural then. (NB for ACT residents: both sources are available in the National Library too.)

Edited by Terry Walker, 24 April 2011 - 07:44.


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#402 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 12:44

Might his occupation likely be something like 'Company Director'?

This is, of course, a promising line of enquiry and having spoken at length to Rodney on the subject last week as he travelled through to the Falcon GT get together in Brisbane, I know he'd be pleased if something could be dredged out of the archives somewhere.

#403 Repco22

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 14:42

Oh... something else this thread has achieved, Rod. It's dragged you here among us.


:blush: Why thanks Ray. You're very kind! It's nice to be here.

#404 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 20:29

I believe it is...

And as soon as you start a thread posting your cartoons it will be an even happier place!

#405 ken devine

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 21:09

On my return to Perth I will try to locate Harrys defendants through a section of the West Australian.It has been great keeping up on my I phone.

#406 Wilyman

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 03:40

On my return to Perth I will try to locate Harrys defendants through a section of the West Australian.It has been great keeping up on my I phone.



Ken,
Don't let anyone forget that you first raised the question of the Smith Special twelve months ago on the "SpeedWest Forum". :wave:

#407 Repco22

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 13:08

I believe it is...

And as soon as you start a thread posting your cartoons it will be an even happier place!


I'd be glad to Ray. Just as soon as I figure out how to start my own thread modestly! :well:

#408 john medley

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 00:59

This story gets curiouser and curiouser. It is so easy to get one's brain into a mental set which then slots new pieces of information( or rumour!) neatly inside that mental set. Just the simple facts( or are they?) about Harold, his occupation, the body on the car, his location 1950, the car's location 1950 now give us a pretty neat fit -- do you agree?

I promise I am not making this up. I received a phone call last night and( from a different person) an email this morning, both referring to a recently found document written daily in 1948 in NSW. At this stage I am not allowed to disclose the who/where/why of this document, but I am told the document states that at a NSW rally in 1948 John Crouch man of many cars and 1949 Australian Grand Prix winner turned up with a car having a well finished fully enveloping body, all in the general style of an Allard, and carrying a Ford V8 engine. Those who communicated this information believe John Crouch's car that day was later Harold's

Edited by john medley, 29 April 2011 - 01:01.


#409 john medley

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 07:55

A little further research might dispel this new and strange turn of events....

The rally mentioned was a (NSW) Vintage Sports Car Club event on the evening of 24 April 1948. Thankfully, Australian Motor Sports' report includes the words ..."... and Crouch brought Brian Walker in the ex Alec Hayes Ford V8 Special ( Vintage cars of 1998)..." which may well solve our problem, not least because John Crouch and Brian (Blackjack) Walker won the event. The real clue lies in the misspelt former owner "Alec Hay"( from Victoria): if my memory serves me correctly the Alec Hay car was bodied similarly but not the same as Harold's V8. It was reminiscent of those Buckland bodies, it was a bit like those unfortunate Allards and Alvises of that postwar period -- or vaguely like an aerodynamic HRG like Tony Gaze imported. It looked a bit like the Joshua Cadillac, or the Head brothers Austin A125, or that Hudson Special Ray Bell has previously posted pics of here -- if my memory serves me correctly.

So far I have not found a pic of the Alec Hay car, but I will keep searching. The story of Harold's car doesnt need any more twists and turns , and strangenesses.....

#410 john medley

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 08:18

Found!

Australian Motor Sports February 1948 Page 26 pic shows ".. this attractive V8 Special is owned and driven by Alex Hay; went very well until overheating forced him to retire" in the apalling heat at the Point Cook 1948 Australian Grand Prix. It is clearly not Harold's car

#411 Repco22

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 03:26

This month's VSCC of WA club mag has mentioned that a bunch of pics from the '51 Narrogin AGP has been donated to the club. Might be some of the Smith Special for RODWIL and whoever is interested.

#412 john medley

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 08:35

Welcome back Harry and Harold and all them.

Are we able to hear about the long ago-predicted newspaper articles , and about Harold's daughter?

#413 ken devine

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 09:46

It would be interesting to see those photos Rod. I am doing a story and photos of Harold and the car with my photo display at Albany
this weekend maybe we will get some results. I have just spoken to Warren Scally who restored the car in 1972 he also tried to find information on the car and all he was told it came from Kalgoorlie. He has been in contact with Rodwell for some time.
Strangely i would have passed the location where the car was many times in the 60s.

#414 john medley

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 22:35

You may recall mention of this car perhaps being parked at the back of Silvio Massola's Melbourne workshop. I have been advised that Sil died April 2011, aged 97

Edited by john medley, 02 June 2011 - 22:36.


#415 David Shaw

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 23:49

Sad to hear about Sil's passing.

#416 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 03:33

Indeed...

And he outlived Lou by many years, did he not?

#417 ken devine

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 03:36

To further add to the confusion when i spoke to Warren yesterday his first words after i asked him about the car were yes the
Allard Special, that is what he was told when he inquired about it and it came from Kalgoorlie. Warren contacted a museum in the UK
with the details and specifications of the car and was told it was possibly an Allard prototype.
When he sold the car it was sold at auction i forgot to ask him what year.

#418 Wilyman

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 03:11

To further add to the confusion when i spoke to Warren yesterday his first words after i asked him about the car were yes the
Allard Special, that is what he was told when he inquired about it and it came from Kalgoorlie. Warren contacted a museum in the UK
with the details and specifications of the car and was told it was possibly an Allard prototype.
When he sold the car it was sold at auction i forgot to ask him what year.



Ken,
Prior to the Smith Special appearing in Kalgoorlie it spent some time in Norseman, owner unknown/deceased. Then appearing in a Kalgoorlie car yard, Camilleri Motors. Ron Godenzie snr then took possession. There is still a gap here in how it found its way to the swamp from Kalgoorlie?
All the above has been previously recorded on this site.

Interesting that Warren sold the car at auction. This leaves a gap in its history as to what happened to it from that time to it turning up in the East?

An Allard prototype? If so it would have appeared almost fresh from the drawing board and been built in Australia in record time from the late '40's to its competition debut in the 1951 AGP. No air transport back then, Bristol Freighter perhaps?



Ken, enjoy yourself at Albany.

#419 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 14:10

Originally posted by ken devine
To further add to the confusion when i spoke to Warren yesterday.....


I think the only thing that 'adds to the confusion' is that anyone might still take note of any talk of Allard origins...

Sure, several owners have believed they've been buying some kind of Allard, but all but one dropped it like a hot scone when real Allard specialists looked it over and shook their heads.

As Rod gets into his revamping we might finally get pics of the rear suspension which, I'm very sure, will put paid to any thought of Allard having had anything to do with this car.

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#420 Repco22

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 04:23

I think the only thing that 'adds to the confusion' is that anyone might still take note of any talk of Allard origins...

Sure, several owners have believed they've been buying some kind of Allard, but all but one dropped it like a hot scone when real Allard specialists looked it over and shook their heads.

As Rod gets into his revamping we might finally get pics of the rear suspension which, I'm very sure, will put paid to any thought of Allard having had anything to do with this car.

WELL SAID!!! :up:

#421 Repco22

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:31

These two pics of Eldred Norman's Double V8 have just surfaced. They were taken by Len Moore at the Narrogin AGP in 1951.
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#422 ken devine

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 03:20

I have just spoken to Harolds son who contacted me after finding this thread in this forum. He is also looking for information on the car.
Harold took his life in 1951 owing to financial difficulties. Harolds wife gave the car to a relation Ted Sharp in payment for a debt, Ted
had a Holden Dealership in Esperance and he completed the car it is not known when he sold it this is possibly when it went to Kal goorlie. Harolds wife took the family to live in NSW in 1952 the later moved to Queensland.
The shed where the car was built was bought by Houghton motors and used as their panelshop.
Roley would like to contact the present owner.

#423 Terry Walker

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:52

Wow, Ken, that's a fantastic added piece in the jigsaw. Accounts for many things. I recall the Houghton panel shop well, in Welshpool Rd, now demolished after Houghtons, in turn, folded fifty years later. There's part of a Toyota dealership on the site now. Cnr Ellam St and Welshpool Rd.

#424 BMH Comic

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:28

Wow, Ken, that's a fantastic added piece in the jigsaw. Accounts for many things. I recall the Houghton panel shop well, in Welshpool Rd, now demolished after Houghtons, in turn, folded fifty years later. There's part of a Toyota dealership on the site now. Cnr Ellam St and Welshpool Rd.



It adds a another piece of the puzzel to more than one Jigsaw!!

It now explains the relationship between Mr Ted Sharp who wound up with the water injection equipment from Aubury Badger!! Of course they knew one another. They were both country Holden dealers.

#425 Wilyman

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:00

I have just spoken to Harolds son who contacted me after finding this thread in this forum. He is also looking for information on the car.
Harold took his life in 1951 owing to financial difficulties. Harolds wife gave the car to a relation Ted Sharp in payment for a debt, Ted
had a Holden Dealership in Esperance and he completed the car it is not known when he sold it this is possibly when it went to Kal goorlie. Harolds wife took the family to live in NSW in 1952 the later moved to Queensland.
The shed where the car was built was bought by Houghton motors and used as their panelshop.
Roley would like to contact the present owner.



Ken,
Just when we thought it was safe.....
So from Esperance we could say it ended up in Norseman then Kalgoorlie?

#426 ken devine

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 22:22

It was probaly just driven through Norseman on its way to Kalgoorlie. We need to find out when it went to Kalgoorlie and finished up in that caryard and when it was parked in that Jandakot swamp.

#427 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 22:54

Could it be that someone had a girlfriend in Norseman?

Ted Sharp even, or perhaps this was behind Harry Smith's problems?

#428 Linley

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 11:44

Hello everyone, the Harry Smith in question is in fact my uncle Harry Ross Smith originally from Narrogin who passed away in 1972 aged 51. He was the same Harry Smith who did the Redex Rallys. Harry was married to Jacquie but had no children. I am the daughter of his older brother Douglas. A cousin who lives in Bunbury has all his memorabilia including newspaper articles and a copy of the first photo posted in this thread. Coincidentally Rod Waller on this forum is a cousin on my mother's side of the family so we are the relatives he was referring to. I really need to find some time to document Harry's story. He was a remarkable man. Welcome for anyone to contact me for further details. linleyharris@aol.com

#429 Linley

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 12:01

Oh and reading other posts... Harry was a tour operator/travel agent for a while and I am pretty sure he had a Peugeot garage also maybe VW at some point. Pretty sure he did the Redex trials in a VW.

#430 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 18:47

Just to clarify, which Harry Smith are we talking about?

One built the car which is pictured, he is said to have suicided in 1951 (see post 422) whereas Rod mentioned a Harry Smith who was on the organising committee (IIRC).

#431 Terry Walker

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Posted 16 May 2015 - 13:58

Linely is referring to Narrogin Harry Smith, rather than the Perth Harry Smith.  Perth Harry was the car builder; Narrogin Harry was the Redex, etc man, and the driving force behind the strong Narrogin Car Club, among many other achievements. (And a WW2 pilot in Europe.)



#432 ken devine

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 02:09

When i was in Tasmania recently i visited Rodney Williams who now owns the Smith Special. I was surprised a what a large car it is.Over the last couple of years it has had a full mechanical restoration ,Rodney thinks this was the first overhaul the engine ever had, the body wont be touched as it is in good condition.From looking at the chassis and frame work it was certainly a well engineered car.Rodney would love to bring it to WA sometime for a historic meeting.We are still trying to put it's history together.



#433 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 13:26

Originally posted by Repco22
.....If there is any truth to the story that Harold built the car with the express purpose of winning the AGP, why build a sports car and a heavy one at that?


Reality time for that suggestion...

The organisers had spent money getting a Maserati and a 'name' driver from the UK for the race. Doug Whiteford was supposed to be coming with a Lago Talbot, which was a current GP car at the time.

I don't think there was anything other than loose words to this suggestion. And it may well be that Harold's own 'big mouth' could have led to him having a savage handicap despite his lack of competition experience.



On another subject... and John Medley brought this up...

Some years ago when I was regularly phoning WA people to do stories about circuits over there, one of the people I spoke to was, I'm sure, the Smith who drove the Hillman (at Albany?). The kind of conversations I had with these blokes at that time (I should show you my phone bills!) would certainly have led to mention of other cars in which they competed.



Obviously I have been reading through this thread again, it's taken me about a week on and off. Something else which stood out to me in the discussion about Vin Smith... 'first licence in 1953'?

Could he have said, "First CAMS licence"? That would certainly fit. Maybe no competition licence was required prior to that time?

Edited by Ray Bell, 06 March 2017 - 13:35.


#434 cooper997

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 03:56

Hopefully the right place to add this Shannons Auction link. Up for grabs on November 27 in Melbourne.

https://www.shannons...86H4BS01CG00W7/

Stephen

#435 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 05:28

A shame Rod is parting with it...

He's obviously done a great job with the car, but a couple of points in the write-up bother me:

Jack Brabham's Cooper Bristol was a 'special'?

Does the car really have a 4-speed gearbox.

#436 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 07:10

 

Jack Brabham's Cooper Bristol was a 'special'?

 

 

Not a 'special", but it did say "Redex Special" on the side, like the Indy cars used to do..."Belond Exhaust Special", "Bowes Seal Fast Special", "Sheraton Thompson Special", etc.

 

http://www.oldclassi...dex-special.htm

 

Vince H.



#437 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 08:45

I fully appreciate what you're saying there, Vince...

However, the write-up puts it in a different context:

The early history of Australian motor sport is filled with one-offs and specials, some famous and successful, others long-forgotten. Using whatever running gear and parts were at hand, often sourced from wrecker’s yards, these talented individuals built their home-made specials on limited budgets, competing against the more exotic (and expensive) machinery from England, Europe or the United States. Many famous names in our motor racing heritage started out building and racing their own specials, including legends like Jack Brabham with his famous RedeX Special.


As such, it's wrong.

#438 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 15:05

Okay, yes, I see what you mean.

 

Vince H



#439 terry mcgrath

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 00:35

to bring it full circle the car has been sold to a Western Australian and have spoken with him today.

Surprisingly he advised it needs some work body wise!

Having gone through this thread it is disappointing to see most if not virtually all the photos have gone.

What is also obvious is that someone needs to sort out just the info on the car and smith himself and condense it down to one nice portfolio

terry



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#440 gbader

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 01:31

Terry

 

Good to chat

 

Should qualify my "body needs some work" comments - I was more referring to the paint, its around 37 yrs since the last paint job and has all the expected "patina" , there are sections with obvious cracks/delaminating. None of this was a surprise and thoughts at the moment are around how to preserve the current state to buy myself a year or so until I have the time to consider a full restoration.

 

Frame/body looks to be in good condition (have it on the hoist) and Rodney (PO) had completed significant mechanical work. Rodney also provided an extensive collection of documents/pics which was great, intend to get this online at some point (a condensed history of sorts). Its a great car, love the story and the fact that it is back in WA.  I find the quality/complexity of the build fascinating - had it on the road last weekend (OK, the steering is ludicrously heavy and I would need to lose a few inches in height to get a comfy driving position - but fun none the less)

 

If I could work out how to "attach" an image (rather than link to a hosting site) would show her current state 

 

cheers

 

Greg



#441 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 06:13

Images have to be hosted elsewhere, but the links can have them show up on the threads here without having to go to another page...

I always wanted to find out how the rear suspension of the car worked. I know it's an independent rear end, but no photos I saw fully explained the methods used to locate hub carriers etc. Bodywork always seemed to get in the camera's way.

Nice to know it's back in its birth state, too...

#442 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 06:30

Originally posted by john medley
Found!

Australian Motor Sports February 1948 Page 26 pic shows ".. this attractive V8 Special is owned and driven by Alex Hay; went very well until overheating forced him to retire" in the apalling heat at the Point Cook 1948 Australian Grand Prix. It is clearly not Harold's car


I should have found and posted this long ago... not the car in question but of interest for the times...

0118fr_AMS248_Alex_Hay_Spl.jpg

Greg, if you need help with posting the pics you can e.mail them to me and I'll do it for you.



.

Edited by Ray Bell, 22 January 2018 - 09:30.


#443 gbader

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 03:23

Images have to be hosted elsewhere, but the links can have them show up on the threads here without having to go to another page...

I always wanted to find out how the rear suspension of the car worked. I know it's an independent rear end, but no photos I saw fully explained the methods used to locate hub carriers etc. Bodywork always seemed to get in the camera's way.

Nice to know it's back in its birth state, too...

 

Ray, will try and get some pics for you - adding in a compare

 

http://members.iinet...ith/compare.JPG

 

 

compare.JPG


Edited by gbader, 05 September 2018 - 05:41.


#444 gbader

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 06:45

Gents - sorry to drag up an old thread but I thought I might be able to add some closure (or at least an update)

 

I have created a site for the car - http://www.smithspecial.com.au/

 

I am not a web expert, learning as I go but its a start (and I have more content/pics to add) - for example, the original owner from 1970 (Warren, the guy that discovered it in the swamp) is coming along this weekend for a chat and look, hope to grab some good stories

 

cheers



#445 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 May 2020 - 22:54

And pictures?

 

Look forward to it...



#446 ken devine

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 00:46

I look forward to the website and seeing the car on display at the Motor Museum of WA as a volunteer i can tell people some of the story of  this amazing car. But we can't let the story rest until we find those missing years.



#447 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 04:31

And I'd still like to see chassis detail and how the rear suspension went together...

 

The body is definitely in the way for pics of that.



#448 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 09:12

Gents - sorry to drag up an old thread but I thought I might be able to add some closure (or at least an update)

 

I have created a site for the car - http://www.smithspecial.com.au/

 

I am not a web expert, learning as I go but its a start (and I have more content/pics to add) - for example, the original owner from 1970 (Warren, the guy that discovered it in the swamp) is coming along this weekend for a chat and look, hope to grab some good stories

 

cheers

The Steve Tillett mentioned as winner from SA. Something in my memory [ a poor place these days] but is he of the Tillett Memorials family who have been in the headstone business for decades?

 

And the website for the car has some interesting info. Most gleaned from this very convulated thread over a decade.

Looking at those pics personally I like it in BRG with it seems Minilites on it. 

Or in white with the steel disc wheels.



#449 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 May 2020 - 01:12

Yes, Lee, Steve Tillett owned the memorial stone business...

 

He competed for many years in his TC, including Narrogin in '51 and Mallala into, I think, the late sixties.

 

He was a good friend of Eldred Norman.