27 replies to this topic

[Dunc]

Was Jim Clark planning on racing into the 1970s when he died?

If not, what is the majority opinion on how he would have fared against Jackie Stewart? The idea of Clark in a Lotus 72 sounds vs Stewart in Ken Tyrell's machines sounds like it would have been awesome.

[Amphicar]

Perhaps obvious - but Clark and Stewart raced each other in F1 throughout the 1965, 1966 and 1967 seasons and (together with eventual winner Graham Hill) they both competed in the 1966 Indy 500 so there is quite a lot of factual information to compare them on, without needing speculation. The same could be said about comparisons between Ayrton Senna and Michael Shumacher.

[rallen]

I often like to think of what Jimmy could have done in a Lotus 72 it is fascinating - yes it never happened but half of motor sport is about romance and nostalgia. 'What if's' are particularly interesting, whether it is general history or motorsport history.

For what it's worth I think Jimmy would have totally outshone Stewart

[jj2728]

Personally, I think, had he lived, Jimmy would have 'walked' the 68 season. Beyond that, I have'nt a clue.

[Tim Murray]

Agreed. I think he'd have been in with a shout in 1969, too, although he'd have had stiff competition from Stewart in the MS80 and Rindt in the BT26, assuming Jochen had stayed with Brabham. What I really think would have been interesting was how Jim would have taken to the 63. Hill and Rindt obviously didn't have much time for it, but I suspect Clark would have been fascinated by the concept, and might well have achieved something with it.

Edited by Tim Murray, 14 January 2011 - 02:04.

[Roger Clark]

What I really think would have been interesting was how Jim would have taken to the 63. Hill and Rindt obviously didn't have much time for it, but I suspect Clark would have been fascinated by the concept, and might well have achieved something with it.

That is a possibility. It is also possible that Chapman would have believed Clark if he had told him it was a blind alley in a way that he didn't believe Hill and rindt. Either way, Lotus's 1969 season would have been different.

It's also interesting to speculate on how Jim clark would have coped with the increased testing responsibilities if he had continued racing. One of Stewart's strengths was his knowledge of Goodyear cars when compared with his rivals'

[Doug Nye]

Hmmmm - I don't like these kind of questions but from someone probably much younger they are to be expected, perhaps, and should be more than tolerated, though my personal reaction is that such speculation is without value. However...

In fact, during the Tasman tour at the start of 1968, Jimmy talked to one or two friends about perhaps leaving Lotus for 1969, perhaps to run Moss/Walker style as an independent. I have often wondered who the independent entrant might have been? Rob himself? Or was it just Jimmy feeling low, growing older, far, far from home? But by that stage in his life he was a far more sophisticated, free-wheeling citizen of the world than he had ever been before... And he still had the world - and an assortment of women - at his feet.

DCN

[GD66]

Thanks for the insight, Doug. Interesting to consider what may have been. It seemed Jimmy Clark thought of little else during most of his career than what was required to be the best he could, but latterly may have been starting to mellow out and see his life with more perspective. Controversial, focussed and troubled as Ayrton Senna no doubt was, I found it equally interesting that towards the end he appeared to be finally realising a similar, broader perspective. There's nothing to be gained from conjecture, but really there's no harm in it either...

[barrykm]

Now that's the sort of line of responses that the topic warranted, not the initial put-downs which I see have now been excised.

I too think Jimmy would have wrapped up 1968 with little problem, but perhaps 1969 would have been somewhat stiffer against Jackie Stewart in the Matra.

Would he have carried beyond 1969, or even 1968 for that matter, must be conjecture for those outside his inner circle. But perhaps he would have been fascinated by the concept of the 72....

Edited by barrykm, 14 January 2011 - 13:45.

[Amphicar]

Now that's the sort of line of responses that the topic warranted, not the initial put-downs which I see have now been excised.

I too think Jimmy would have wrapped up 1968 with little problem, but perhaps 1969 would have been somewhat stiffer against Jackie Stewart in the Matra.

Would he have carried beyond 1969, or even 1968 for that matter, must be conjecture for those outside his inner circle. But perhaps he would have been fascinated by the concept of the 72....

I agree that had he lived, Jim Clark would almost certainly have won the championship 1n 1968 - after all, he was driving the same car as Graham Hill, who did win - and Jimmy was generally faster than Graham. However, I think that even Jimmy could not have beaten Jackie Stewart in the German Grand Prix that year.

[bradbury west]

Thanks for the insight, Doug. It seemed Jimmy Clark thought of little else during most of his career than what was required to be the best he could, but latterly may have been starting to mellow out and see his life with more perspective.

Thanks for fleshing out what some of us have always thought, Doug. My understanding was that Jim always baulked at full commitment in his relationships, certainly with Sally Stokes, and I do not know about his time with Kate Eccles, but she was clearly distraught on the arm of a haunted-looking ACBC at the funeral. Perhaps a racing-world-weary JC had decided he wanted to settle down and get married etc, and return to the farms. He was independently very wealthy so there was no need for a racing income-stream for a man of simple tastes.

Any views are simply hypothetical.

Regarding GD66's comment above, I always thought the genius and enigma of Clark was that he never seemed to have to work at being simply quicker than the oposition. Whatever the case, we mourn him still.

Roger Lund

Edit
Perhaps our original poster, who elects to bask in anonynity, might find delight in reading any or all of the various biographies of Jim Clark for a fuller awareness of the man, rather than just the racer.

Edited by bradbury west, 14 January 2011 - 21:31.

[P0wderf1nger]

It's a sad feature of the sport we love that the greats have rarely gone head-to-head, but have tended to follow one another, most obviously through the '60s, when Clark grew to prominence in the year following Moss' Goodwood accident, and Stewart drove probably his greatest race, at the Nurburgring, just months after Hockenheim. More recently, Senna died trying to keep the next top dog behind him. So we can hardly blame people for asking, what if...

I don't think I appreciated, at the time, how lucky we were when Senna, Prost, Rosberg, Piquet and Mansell were all vying with one another.

So, a fully-matured Clark up against Stewart and Rindt in their prime. The thought warms a cold winter evening, doesn't it?

[Stephen W]

So, a fully-matured Clark up against Stewart and Rindt in their prime. The thought warms a cold winter evening, doesn't it?

Obviously IF Clark had continued in GP racing after 1968 & IF he had maintained his seat at Lotus would Rindt have become the force he was in 1970? But then again maybe Clark might have been lured over to the States where he was so highly regarded? Then there is the question of Rindt, had he not died at Monza what would he have done with Lotus in 1971 etc? It is all just speculation.

It's like the old musical gag: If your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle!

[P0wderf1nger]

It's like the old musical gag: If your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle!

So she would.

[Glengavel]

Obviously IF Clark had continued in GP racing after 1968 & IF he had maintained his seat at Lotus would Rindt have become the force he was in 1970? But then again maybe Clark might have been lured over to the States where he was so highly regarded? Then there is the question of Rindt, had he not died at Monza what would he have done with Lotus in 1971 etc? It is all just speculation.

It's like the old musical gag: If your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle!

We might have has a Scottish stranglehold on the DWC for a few years:

1968 Clark
1969 Stewart
1970 Clark
1971 Stewart
1872 Clark
1973 Stewart

1974? Would Clark have retired alongside Stewart? Or would he have been eyeing up Fangio's record and made a silk purse out of the Lotus 76, or flogged the Lotus 72 to a glorious finale?

[Stephen W]

We might have has a Scottish stranglehold on the DWC for a few years:

1968 Clark
1969 Stewart
1970 Clark
1971 Stewart
1872 Clark
1973 Stewart

1872? Driving what?

[Bloggsworth]

It's like the old musical gag: If your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle!

How did you find out? We thought that only the family knew.

[elansprint72]

Napoleon Bonaparte vs Erwin Rommel. Discuss.

[Glengavel]

1872? Driving what?

[PeterElleray]

ref the 1969 season and Jim Clark's likely position - i am sure that i have seen more than one source (not that i can place any of them) that connect JC to the Cosworth 4wd project. i had assumed that this was the 'independant' that has been hinted at - possibly with an existing indpendant team (yes, maybe Rob Walker?) running the car , (as he did for SM with the earlier ferguson 4wd in 1961).

considering the charcters involved, this has more than a ring of the possible about it?

anyway , before my time really, but interesting nevertheless.

fwiw i wonder what would have happened if it had come to pass....


peter

[P0wderf1nger]

ref the 1969 season and Jim Clark's likely position - i am sure that i have seen more than one source (not that i can place any of them) that connect JC to the Cosworth 4wd project.

Peter

In a Motor Sport from about a year ago, Simon Taylor's lunch was with Robin Herd, and I recall Herd claiming that Clark was going to drive the Cosworth FWD in '69. But since he also claimed Rodriquez had a 3.3-litre engine in the back of his BRM when he won at Spa a year later, and talked of Petersen dutifully following Andretti throughout '78, I wasn't sure I could believe anything he said.

Paul

[PeterElleray]

Peter

In a Motor Sport from about a year ago, Simon Taylor's lunch was with Robin Herd, and I recall Herd claiming that Clark was going to drive the Cosworth FWD in '69. But since he also claimed Rodriquez had a 3.3-litre engine in the back of his BRM when he won at Spa a year later, and talked of Petersen dutifully following Andretti throughout '78, I wasn't sure I could believe anything he said.

Paul

yes - point taken about the 3.3 engine, but that wasnt the first place i came across this. i'm checking through my sources.

peter

[jj2728]

yes - point taken about the 3.3 engine, but that wasnt the first place i came across this. i'm checking through my sources.

peter

I'm sure Chris Amon thought it was.....

[Kpy]

yes - point taken about the 3.3 engine, but that wasnt the first place i came across this. i'm checking through my sources.

peter

Doug Nye dealt with this HERE and HERE.
The article he refers to, debunking the 3.3 litre engine story, appeared in Motor Sport May 2010 pages 132-133.

[PeterElleray]

Doug Nye dealt with this HERE and HERE.
The article he refers to, debunking the 3.3 litre engine story, appeared in Motor Sport May 2010 pages 132-133.

i meant that this wasnt the first place that i read about jim clark being the prospectice driver of the cosworth 4wd....

[Roger Clark]

I think it has been well-documented that Keith Duckworth wanted Jim Clark to drive the Cosworth car and that he lost a lot of interest in the project after Clark's death. I don't know whether this went as far as discussions with the driver.

What Chapman might have offered Clark to stay at Lotus can only be imagined.

Edited by Roger Clark, 17 January 2011 - 10:29.

[PeterElleray]

I think it has been well-documented that Keith Duckworth wanted Jim Clark to drive the Cosworth car and that he lost a lot of interest in the project after Clark's death.

any idea where?!

[Roger Clark]

any idea where?!

Graham Robson's book on Cosworth and Mike Lawrence's book on March spring to mind.