27 replies to this topic

[Hypstorian]

Greetings all,

I was wondering if any of you history buffs could tell me about a possible friendship between
Henri Farman and Charles Rolls? I know they both drove Panhards in the Paris-Madrid 1903
race, and probably competed in many others as well. They both went on to become involved in
aviation (Rolls as an aviator, and Farman as both an aviator and famous constructor) around 1907
or thereabouts.
The reason I'm asking is because I was able to buy a unique and ultra rare copy of Octave
Chanute's "Progress in Flying Machines" (1894) which has the following inscription on
the front flyleaf: "To Henri Farman
Chas S. Rolls"

The book is FULL of handwritten (technical) annotations by Farman! Rolls died in a crash (Wright flyer)
in 1910 at Bournemouth, and Farman starting constructing his own airplanes around 1907 rather than continuing to use a standard Voisin biplane, so I assume that Rolls gave him this book as a gift sometime around 1905 or 1906?

Anyway, I'd appreciate any further info any of you might have regarding a friendship or association
between these two remarkable characters.

P.S. If I can figure out how to insert an image of the dedication I'll do so. I have it saved on my desktop, but have no idea what the URL for it is...

[Marticelli]

Sounds like an exciting find, and makes me envious! I had a similar discovery in a 1905 Clement Bayard catalogue I bought on eBay some years ago which turned out to have been signed by many famous people associated with the company including Adolphe Clement himself.

More to the point, I have two Farman books which may shed some light on your enquiry. The first is one of the first books ever published by Mills and Boon (in 1910 but written earlier), The Aviator's Companion, by Dick and Henry Farman. Dick was the third brother who managed the Farman factory and acted as a go-between in all matters involving Maurice and Henry as they didn't see eye to eye on most matters. After a quick scan, I can find no reference to Charles Rolls but he does say they have written the book based on current thinking and include Chanute amongst those whose theories they have read. This was written in July 1909, well before the book was published. I will take a more in depth look in slower time.

Second book is Sahel's French biography of Henry Farman published in 1936. This is less easy to scan being in a foreign language although I have fair to good French, but a quick scan hasn't yielded any mention of CS Rolls and there is no index to cross check by. Again I will have a look in slower time.

Final thought is that the Royal Aeronautical Society in Hamilton Place London has an enviable reference library which can be accessed by non-members if you ask them nicely (assuming your aren't actually a member which you may well be on reflection). Rolls and Farman were both RAeSoc members I am certain, and may also have developed their friendship there. As you point out they both drove Panhards, but Farman was a works driver and Rolls was a private owner/driver.

Fascinated to see the handwritten notes - to insert on this forum, you upload it to a photo-hosting website (I use Photobucket but others use Imageshack etc) and then paste the link to the image into the reply. Sounds harder than it is. You pretty soon get the hang of it...

Marticelli

[Hypstorian]

Thanks for your reply. I also have a copy of "The Aviator's Companion" (pioneer aviation is my main area of collecting, and I have tons of books and periodicals), and saw that passage you mentioned. I'm not familiar with that French book (nor could I read it), but am going to try "Rolls of Rolls-Royce" by Lord Montegue of Beaulieu (1966) when I get a chance to go to the library.

That's a great tip you gave me regarding the Royal Aeronautical Society- and I'll try them as well!

Your Clement catalog sounds like an exciting find too! I've had several pre-1914 Clement airplane cats over the years. Finding stuff like that makes all the searching worthwhile- even if it doesn't happen
very often.

Thanks again for your reply- it was most helpful!

I don't know if I dare lay the book in my flatscanner to copy the notes, because the cover is halfway detached. When I scanned the dedication page (on the flyleaf, which is on acidic paper unlike the rest of the book), it became detached! I might try with a digital camera, but his handwriting is very small and I don't think it will come out legibly.
Anyway, I'll try on Saturday...
Cheers,

Hypstorian

Sounds like an exciting find, and makes me envious! I had a similar discovery in a 1905 Clement Bayard catalogue I bought on eBay some years ago which turned out to have been signed by many famous people associated with the company including Adolphe Clement himself.

More to the point, I have two Farman books which may shed some light on your enquiry. The first is one of the first books ever published by Mills and Boon (in 1910 but written earlier), The Aviator's Companion, by Dick and Henry Farman. Dick was the third brother who managed the Farman factory and acted as a go-between in all matters involving Maurice and Henry as they didn't see eye to eye on most matters. After a quick scan, I can find no reference to Charles Rolls but he does say they have written the book based on current thinking and include Chanute amongst those whose theories they have read. This was written in July 1909, well before the book was published. I will take a more in depth look in slower time.

Second book is Sahel's French biography of Henry Farman published in 1936. This is less easy to scan being in a foreign language although I have fair to good French, but a quick scan hasn't yielded any mention of CS Rolls and there is no index to cross check by. Again I will have a look in slower time.

Final thought is that the Royal Aeronautical Society in Hamilton Place London has an enviable reference library which can be accessed by non-members if you ask them nicely (assuming your aren't actually a member which you may well be on reflection). Rolls and Farman were both RAeSoc members I am certain, and may also have developed their friendship there. As you point out they both drove Panhards, but Farman was a works driver and Rolls was a private owner/driver.

Fascinated to see the handwritten notes - to insert on this forum, you upload it to a photo-hosting website (I use Photobucket but others use Imageshack etc) and then paste the link to the image into the reply. Sounds harder than it is. You pretty soon get the hang of it...

Marticelli

[Pullman99]

The aerly years of aviaition are very closely inter-twined with pioneer motoring and I am sure that it is true to say that all of the early aviators were a fairly close group. I haven't read "Rolls of Roills-Royce" for a while but I don't think that there is very much mention of Henri Farman. I believe that he was English born of French parents (?).

There is an excellent book by Charles Harvard Gibbs-Smith called "The Re-birth of European Aviation". published by The Science Museum, that was written as a result of very painstaking research by its author (who was a curator with the V&A). This may provide you with further background information as it essentially shows the influence of the Wrights following their demonstration flights at Le Mans in 1908. I believe that the research notes and material was donated to The Science Museum by Gibbs-Smith so it is probably worthwhile also contacting them.

You may also be interested in an earlier thread here on TNF

TNF thread on C S Rolls Centenary

[David McKinney]

I believe that he was English born of French parents (?).

Other way around. Born in Paris of English parents. A lot of early report use his (correct) forename Henry

[Odseybod]

You may also be interested in an earlier thread here on TNF

TNF thread on C S Rolls Centenary

As a slight digression - maybe it belongs in the earlier thread? - I've long been intrigued by the claim that the Hon C.S. Rolls was the first aviation fatality in Britain. There was, for example, Percy Pilcher, whose glider stopped gliding fatally at Stanford Hall in 1899, so Rolls wasn't even the first Briton to die in a heavier-than-air craft. And surely the balloonatics that preceded them must have had their fair share of disasters?

[Marticelli]

There is an excellent book by Charles Harvard Gibbs-Smith called "The Re-birth of European Aviation".

This a very substantial and important book, which covers a lot of ground about Octave Chanute, including the publication of his book in 1894 and the lectures he gave after its publication and his subsequent visit to Europe which was widely reported at the time. As the book ends its coverage in 1908, it doesn't cover the period when Rolls died after crashing his Wright Flyer. Rolls in fact doesn'get a mention in the book which is extensively indexed.

HMSO overprinted the book and I bought it cheaply at the Science Museum (where G-S was subsequently a research fellow before taking up a prestigious post at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum and being knighted for his work) and copies are still widely available at a very reasonable price on the web - I would say its a must have! G-S wrote several other books on related topics, all of which are worthwhile.

Final point is that there is a lot of good material published in France which is very well researched. Although it is hard going if your don't have the language, many are well illustrated and the text can be translated using Babelfish or similar web tools. Hatzmann's book on aeroengine pioneer Pierre Clerget is a case in point! He designed many of Clement Bayard's aeroengines.

Marticelli

PS Digital photography is an excellent substitute for scanning provided you take care about focussing and don't use flash. Even faint writing can be pulled out by using photoshop or GIMP (which is freeware and just as good). Most archives and libraries now charge per page for photocopying but may allow use of digital cameras provided its done in a considerate fashion. Much easier than taking pencil notes which is the stock-in trade of library research!

Edited by Marticelli, 20 January 2011 - 11:08.

[Marticelli]

And surely the balloonatics that preceded them must have had their fair share of disasters?

None more glorious than the hapless Comte de Roziere who built a balloon which combined the best of hydrogen gas and hot air, in which he and a companion attempted the first balloon crossing of the English Channel in 1785. After a good ascent from Boulogne, the composite envelope deflated without warning, casting the crew Earthward to their death, the first recorded in aviation... Unless you know otherwise of course!

Marticelli

[Terry Walker]

You might also try the Sir Henry Royce Foundation at Paulerspury, which has an enormous archive of Rolls and Royce material.

[Hypstorian]

Yes, a few of the pioneer aviator names I know who were first involved in motor racing are Le Blon,
Rougier, Henri and Maurice Farman, Charles Rolls. There were a few others that I can't think of at the moment.

I've read other books by Gibbs-Smith, but haven't read that one yet, so thanks for reminding me!

The aerly years of aviaition are very closely inter-twined with pioneer motoring and I am sure that it is true to say that all of the early aviators were a fairly close group. I haven't read "Rolls of Roills-Royce" for a while but I don't think that there is very much mention of Henri Farman. I believe that he was English born of French parents (?).

There is an excellent book by Charles Harvard Gibbs-Smith called "The Re-birth of European Aviation". published by The Science Museum, that was written as a result of very painstaking research by its author (who was a curator with the V&A). This may provide you with further background information as it essentially shows the influence of the Wrights following their demonstration flights at Le Mans in 1908. I believe that the research notes and material was donated to The Science Museum by Gibbs-Smith so it is probably worthwhile also contacting them.

You may also be interested in an earlier thread here on TNF

TNF thread on C S Rolls Centenary

[Hypstorian]

And I'd read that he was born in England of British parents, but that the family moved to Paris at an early age...; - )

Other way around. Born in Paris of English parents. A lot of early report use his (correct) forename Henry

[Hypstorian]

Technically speaking, Rolls was the first Brit to die in a "motorized" heavier-than-air craft.
Pilcher's craft was a glider...

As a slight digression - maybe it belongs in the earlier thread? - I've long been intrigued by the claim that the Hon C.S. Rolls was the first aviation fatality in Britain. There was, for example, Percy Pilcher, whose glider stopped gliding fatally at Stanford Hall in 1899, so Rolls wasn't even the first Briton to die in a heavier-than-air craft. And surely the balloonatics that preceded them must have had their fair share of disasters?

[Hypstorian]

Thanks...yet another helpful tip!!

You guys certainly know your stuff!

You might also try the Sir Henry Royce Foundation at Paulerspury, which has an enormous archive of Rolls and Royce material.

[Hypstorian]

Sorry for changing the subject, but I have another (quick) question:
Is the "nostalgia" forum the only place where the real "ancient" history buffs post
on this bulletin board??
The reason I'm asking is because I offered the complete 624 page 1897 volume of "Locomotion l'Automobile" for sale in the "for sale" section the other day, and haven't received a single query
about it. Seeing as how this is the world's FIRST automobile periodical (issue #1 was from
December 1894, and thus predates "Horseless Age"), I am truly amazed that nobody even posted any questions about it (I never even mentioned a price!).

I would have thought that a goodly number of folks on here would literally jump at a chance to
own a 114 year-old bound volume like this.
What's wrong with this picture...??

[onelung]

....I don't know if I dare lay the book in my flatscanner to copy the notes, because the cover is halfway detached. When I scanned the dedication page (on the flyleaf, which is on acidic paper unlike the rest of the book), it became detached! ....
Hypstorian

FYI, there exist "edge scanners" which can scan as their name implies, without needing the book to be opened more than 90degrees. Expensive, unfortunately.
Good luck: amazing piece of history you have there...

[David McKinney]

Speaking purely for myself, Hypstorian, I never look at the 'For Sale' thread. I should, I know, as I might well be missing out on stuff I really need.

I don't know if I'm alone in this, but unless there's an objection I'd like to see that sort of thing in the main Nostalgia Forum

Trouble is, of course, the same argument could be used for the 99% of items for sale that I (for one) wouldn't have the slightest interest in buying, which rather defeats the purpose of the other thread...

[Doug Nye]

Technically speaking, Rolls was the first Brit to die in a "motorized" heavier-than-air craft.
Pilcher's craft was a glider...

Percy Pilcher is a fascinating character. In the late 1890s he was working with engineer Walter Wilson and the Hon. Adrian Verney-Cave to produce a suitably powerful yet lightweight engine to power one of his essentially glider aircraft. By repute the prototype engine was about to make its debut in 1899 when it broke its crank on ground-test and poor Pilcher filed his final, vertical, flight plan during a substitute gliding flight in his otherwise impressive 'Hawk' at Stanford Hall in Leicestershire. It was a drizzly day and it appeared that the dampened wing covering had begun to shrink, increasing rigging tension so much that once under load in flight a vital wire bracing the tail snapped, or pulled out its attachment, allowing the entire tail structure to collapse.

Walter Gordon Wilson went on to become principal designer of the first military tanks in World War 1 and in the 1920s introduced the pre-selector gearbox which bore his name. He died in 1957, I believe. His grandson, Chris 'Tipper' Wilson is a lifelong motor racing enthusiast who for many years ran Road & Racing Accessories in London - purveyors of crash hats, overalls etc to the ambitious gentry - before selling the business to Ray Bellm.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 21 January 2011 - 09:46.

[Pullman99]

Percy Pilcher is a fascinating character.

Indeed he is and could, potentially, have achieved powered sustained flight before the Wright brothers. There is a reproduction of his "Hawk" glider on display at Stanford Hall and although I haven't visited for some years I think that one of the cars with pre-selector gearbox that Walter Wilson manufactured - as the Wilson-Pilcher - is there as well.

Stanford Hall "Hawk" glider link

[Hypstorian]

Thanks! Yes, it's a thrill just to be able to own it for a while. I already have a prospective
buyer who will be much better suited to safeguarding it for posterity (including treating the
all-important acidic flyleaf with dedication). But right now it's MY baby, and I'm delighted
to have FINALLY been able to acquire it (took me THREE YEARS of ever-increasing offers to get the
guy to part with it!).

FYI, there exist "edge scanners" which can scan as their name implies, without needing the book to be opened more than 90degrees. Expensive, unfortunately.
Good luck: amazing piece of history you have there...

[Hypstorian]

I actually have MANY really nifty antique automobilia items (all paper, no "objects") that I'm
going to part with to help finance my early retirement, but I doubt if this forum is the right
venue for them, as most of what I'm seeing is 1950's & up racing memorabilia.
I always collected pre-1914, with only a few later pieces that I was unable to resist for one reason or another.

I'll probably end up letting my daughter list them on Ebay for me one of these days...

Speaking purely for myself, Hypstorian, I never look at the 'For Sale' thread. I should, I know, as I might well be missing out on stuff I really need.

I don't know if I'm alone in this, but unless there's an objection I'd like to see that sort of thing in the main Nostalgia Forum

Trouble is, of course, the same argument could be used for the 99% of items for sale that I (for one) wouldn't have the slightest interest in buying, which rather defeats the purpose of the other thread...

[Hypstorian]

The same type of lousy weather is what also prevented the replica Wright flyer from taking off
at the centennial celebration on Dec. 17, 2003.
Had the weather also been drizzly at Kitty Hawk on that fateful day in 1903, history might well have been rewritten...

Percy Pilcher is a fascinating character. In the late 1890s he was working with engineer Walter Wilson and the Hon. Adrian Verney-Cave to produce a suitably powerful yet lightweight engine to power one of his essentially glider aircraft. By repute the prototype engine was about to make its debut in 1899 when it broke its crank on ground-test and poor Pilcher filed his final, vertical, flight plan during a substitute gliding flight in his otherwise impressive 'Hawk' at Stanford Hall in Leicestershire. It was a drizzly day and it appeared that the dampened wing covering had begun to shrink, increasing rigging tension so much that once under load in flight a vital wire bracing the tail snapped, or pulled out its attachment, allowing the entire tail structure to collapse.

Walter Gordon Wilson went on to become principal designer of the first military tanks in World War 1 and in the 1920s introduced the pre-selector gearbox which bore his name. He died in 1957, I believe. His grandson, Chris 'Tipper' Wilson is a lifelong motor racing enthusiast who for many years ran Road & Racing Accessories in London - purveyors of crash hats, overalls etc to the ambitious gentry - before selling the business to Ray Bellm.

DCN

[Hypstorian]

Here are 4 scans of my unique copy of Octave Chanute's "Progress in Flying Machines" (1894)


http://s1176.photobu...335/Hypstorian/


(copy & paste this link to see the 4 photos)

[Allan Lupton]

Speaking purely for myself, Hypstorian, I never look at the 'For Sale' thread. I should, I know, as I might well be missing out on stuff I really need.

I don't know if I'm alone in this, but unless there's an objection I'd like to see that sort of thing in the main Nostalgia Forum

Trouble is, of course, the same argument could be used for the 99% of items for sale that I (for one) wouldn't have the slightest interest in buying, which rather defeats the purpose of the other thread...

I looked at the "for Sale" list of threads for the first time as the result of this thread and:
There are seven pages of items I'm not interested in going back five years, none of which seem to be marked as "sold" although presumably some have been.
There are very few here who are really interested in the pre-[Great] war era, let alone 19th century, so your bound volume is perhaps best sold at one of the big auctions.
When the VCC had a Dating Panel, and I was on it, I had an interest in early magazines but used the copies in the Club's library which is pretty comprehensive and only 7 miles from where I live.
I would suggest offering La Locomotion Automobile to the VCC but they have a more or less complete set already.

[Hypstorian]

Yes, I think you're probably right about most folks on here not being interested in pre-great war items.
I just assumed that many would be, because to me, it's always been a question of "the older the better!"
That's the way I feel about both automobilia AND aviation, but I should have realized that (most?) others might not look at it the same way.

I'm not crazy about auctions- not as a seller OR as a buyer...

I looked at the "for Sale" list of threads for the first time as the result of this thread and:
There are seven pages of items I'm not interested in going back five years, none of which seem to be marked as "sold" although presumably some have been.
There are very few here who are really interested in the pre-[Great] war era, let alone 19th century, so your bound volume is perhaps best sold at one of the big auctions.
When the VCC had a Dating Panel, and I was on it, I had an interest in early magazines but used the copies in the Club's library which is pretty comprehensive and only 7 miles from where I live.
I would suggest offering La Locomotion Automobile to the VCC but they have a more or less complete set already.

[Michael Ferner]

Sorry for changing the subject, but I have another (quick) question:
Is the "nostalgia" forum the only place where the real "ancient" history buffs post
on this bulletin board??
The reason I'm asking is because I offered the complete 624 page 1897 volume of "Locomotion l'Automobile" for sale in the "for sale" section the other day, and haven't received a single query
about it. Seeing as how this is the world's FIRST automobile periodical (issue #1 was from
December 1894, and thus predates "Horseless Age"), I am truly amazed that nobody even posted any questions about it (I never even mentioned a price!).

I would have thought that a goodly number of folks on here would literally jump at a chance to
own a 114 year-old bound volume like this.
What's wrong with this picture...??

So... what will be the price???

I must say that I chiver at the thought of " financing your early retirement", though...

[Hypstorian]

Actually I'm only asking $1450 for it, which comes out to less than $30 per issue.
However, somebody made me an offer yesterday to swap it for pioneer aviation items
that I might not be able to resist (yes, I am a hopeless case!).
I'm fascinated by both pioneer automobile AND pioneer aviation history, but have a preference for
aviation-related items (which is even MORE "exotic" in my opinion).

Yes, I'm a hopeless case...

So... what will be the price???

I must say that I chiver at the thought of " financing your early retirement", though...;)

[Michael Ferner]

Well, that's out of my range anyway - and saves me the effort to brush up on my French!!

[Hypstorian]

Don't feel too bad, I can't read French either. I just like to look at the pretty pictures, and
then have to ask my poor, long-suffering wife to translate text for me...

Well, that's out of my range anyway - and saves me the effort to brush up on my French!!