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Lewis and Jenson scorecard 2011 (merged)


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#1 aditya-now

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 14:10

2010 is over for good, and the tests for 2011 will start in a little more than one week's time.

What will the duel bring this year?

Some people claim it will largely depend on the tyres. While at Ferrari and Mercedes GP Massa and Schumacher "are smelling morning air" as the Pirellis supposedly suit their driving styles better, the same may not be true for Jenson. On the contrary, it could turn out the Lewis profits from the new tyres, as his driving style is closer to Michael's and Felipe's than is Jenson's....

That would mean even a larger distance between Hamilton and Button than in 2010. Then again, in which direction did the car development for 2011 lean at McLaren - did they develop more in direction of Lewis' driving style or in direction of Jenson's?

Again, the consensus is that nowadays engineers don't really "lean" in direction of a particular driver - they try to develop the best possible car and it is up to the driver to extract the best from his material.

Let us follow this exiting duel throughout the year, my guess is that the difference between the two will be in Lewis' favour, more pronouncedly so than in 2010, when he was kind of surprised by some special strategic jewels Jenson pulled out of the hat, still reveling in his fresh champion's glory.

Their career stats are so far:

LH 1 WDC 15 wins
JB 1 WDC 9 wins

Let us see how much this scorecard will change in 2011!

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#2 madrocker

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 14:24

I believe Jenson's struggle had more to do with how the car had to be set up for it to have effective downforce levels... it has been reported several times that the car was stupidly stiff even for Formula 1 standards and that has to have had an effect on Jenson's driving...



#3 MinT

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 14:39

and so a new year and a new thread and.....

the 2nd post on it goes over the same old ground :rolleyes:

I am looking forward to an interesting season - one in which hopefully the McLaren will be good enough to challenge for both titles. A season where Button is used to the team and hopefully the tyres wil suit him.

A season where Hamilton can forget about problems with the car and just go about beating Vettel, Alonso etc

#4 Peter Perfect

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 14:41

I know it's popularly accepted that Hamilton prefers oversteer while Jenson prefers understeer, but it's probably closer to the truth to say that drivers in general prefer neutral handling and that's what the engineers will be aiming for. If the new car is balanced, with lots of predictable downforce, it will suit both drivers. If the balance is off then one driver will be able to cope with it better than the other but that's not the same as preferring it.

The key for this year, and for some reason it's a problem that McLaren in particular seem to suffer from, will be to produce a car that's friendly and easy to set-up. The drivers will then have confidence in the car and be able to push it to its limits, otherwise race weekends will become a set-up lottery and potentially they'll have a car that's very difficult to develop over the course of the season.

#5 Kvothe

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 15:12

2010 is over for good, and the tests for 2011 will start in a little more than one week's time.

What will the duel bring this year?

Some people claim it will largely depend on the tyres. While at Ferrari and Mercedes GP Massa and Schumacher "are smelling morning air" as the Pirellis supposedly suit their driving styles better, the same may not be true for Jenson. On the contrary, it could turn out the Lewis profits from the new tyres, as his driving style is closer to Michael's and Felipe's than is Jenson's....

That would mean even a larger distance between Hamilton and Button than in 2010. Then again, in which direction did the car development for 2011 lean at McLaren - did they develop more in direction of Lewis' driving style or in direction of Jenson's?

Again, the consensus is that nowadays engineers don't really "lean" in direction of a particular driver - they try to develop the best possible car and it is up to the driver to extract the best from his material.

Let us follow this exiting duel throughout the year, my guess is that the difference between the two will be in Lewis' favour, more pronouncedly so than in 2010, when he was kind of surprised by some special strategic jewels Jenson pulled out of the hat, still reveling in his fresh champion's glory.

Their career stats are so far:

LH 1 WDC 15 wins
JB 1 WDC 9 wins

Let us see how much this scorecard will change in 2011!



One could argue that both have theoretically advantages this seaason;

Jenson will have been with the McLaren team for over a year now, so there is no doubt he will have had significant input into the car. There is no doubt that the car was built around Lewis for last year, and i think someone made a good point before that while Lewis is more then capable of helping to develop a good car, he might care less the Jenson about develop an extremely well handling car since it is obvious it is not as much as a factor in his driving then in Jensons. With the significant input, Jenson MAY find this car easier to drive, and since he has a narrow operating window, in order to be at his best, this can work in his favour. On paper at least he is more likely to challenge Lewis

Jenson will also have more contunuity this season, in comparison to last season. Last year he went through several different race engineers, as did Lewis who gained a new one at the beginning of the seaon. Everyone is aware of the importance of such a relationship. Especially when it comes to the aspect of trust and understanding when vital decisions are taken both before during and after the race. This could also have a positive aspect on his racing, his setups and just generally his confidence.

Jenson has spoke much about improving his qualifying, and has undoubtedly made efforts to do so. This is important for two main reasons:
Firstly in this new era of no refuelling, qualification is key. While this may change with the pirelli tyres, kers and the rear wing making it easier to overtake, there is no doubt that certain advantages are acrued just by being at the front. The mental boost of knowing you are competing for a win, can drastically improves perforance; there is less chance of being taken out when stuck in the midfield, priority in strategy etc.
Secondly if Jenson wants to win, another WDC the first step to beating Lewis is qualifying in a good position. there were many races where Jenson worked his way up positions, and finished behind Lewis on an number of occaions. If he can get ahead then strategy already plays in his favour and he can dictate the race between the two. So if Button has improved his qualifying i expect him to be taking the fight much more to Lewis.

Lewis however may have fully established how great of a driver his is and why the team should lean more in his direction. Last year the team may have bent over backwards to make Jenson feel comfortable, especially to dispell any sins of favouritism in a team widely regarded as belonging to Lewis. There is of course nothing wrong with this, however it is much more likely to change this year. The team will probably not be as accomodating to Jenson, which means, that Lewis who, especially at the beginning of the year, was arguably being mistreated especially stategywise, will be more likely to be on the receiving end of the good strategy calls. Furthermore it could mean that his input will be significantly more valued, especially in developing the car over the year, with more emphasis on making the car faster, and less on stability. If that is indeed the case then thsi could only benefit Lewis.

Kers: Lewis arguable used it to the greatest effect in 2009, and he has a lot of experience with it. This will especially come in useful during qualifying, as he will have more knowledge about the correct ways to deploy it thorughout the laps, understand how it affects braking point etc. Although Jenson will have knowledge of his telemetary, driver setup , I doubt due to the driving style, and using last year as evidence this will help much. This seems to be another advantage Lewis may have.

Pirelli Tyres: If it is indeed true that the fronts are in fact stronger then the rears, then i espect this too to be another advantage to Lewis. Due to the difference in driving styles and how they take corners. Jenson favours the rear tyres and understeer, while Lewis favours the fronter tyres and oversteer. There is a strong argument that last years tyre's which favoured the rears were a handicap of sorts to Lewis and that this year with tyres more suited to him he will be in his element, while Jenson may find himself struggling more. I for one would love to see Lewis return to the sliding style employed in 2007.

Better Driving: Benjamin Disraeli uttered the famous line: There are three kinds of lies..lies, damned lie..and statistics. This is espcially true of Lewis. If one were to look at his driving solely in terms of results then one would see that he has never really achieved better then the amazing consistency of nine consecutive podiums or of winning the 2008 WDC. This however would not take into account, the cars he has driven or the position of his team mates. For those that have watched Lewis he has without a doubt improved with some of his best drives being in 2009 and 2010, despite emotional issues. Whats more after an erratic 2008, his consitency has also improved and if his car was more competative with the red bull, i think we may have seen another 2007. This year i expect a highly energised, and emotionally stable Lewis to improve even more, and if he has a competitive car it will be hard to see Jenson beat him over a year.


When looked at like this the advantages seem to favour Lewis more, then Jenson, and whether one beats the other depends on a variety of factors such as the car, what effect the changes will have and even luck. This year Lewis may have no mechanical issues and Jenson may have them or vice versa. The most exciting thing will be watching it play out. This year Jenson will have less excuses, and if he really wants to win the WDC and beat Lewis he will really have to step it up. Likewise Lewis must take into account finishing rather then winning, but hopefully not at the expense of his racing style. I am incredible excited and can't wait,

By the way i would like to apologise if i contributed to the old thread being closed, will. bite. less.

Edited by Kvothe, 23 January 2011 - 15:16.


#6 BillBald

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 15:47

the 2nd post on it goes over the same old ground :rolleyes:


I understand that the previous thread was closed because of posters criticising one another.

Stiffness of the suspension may well be relevant for 2011. A car which is less affected by the bumps might benefit Jenson more than Lewis.





#7 robefc

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 15:47

I know it's popularly accepted that Hamilton prefers oversteer while Jenson prefers understeer, but it's probably closer to the truth to say that drivers in general prefer neutral handling and that's what the engineers will be aiming for. If the new car is balanced, with lots of predictable downforce, it will suit both drivers. If the balance is off then one driver will be able to cope with it better than the other but that's not the same as preferring it.

The key for this year, and for some reason it's a problem that McLaren in particular seem to suffer from, will be to produce a car that's friendly and easy to set-up. The drivers will then have confidence in the car and be able to push it to its limits, otherwise race weekends will become a set-up lottery and potentially they'll have a car that's very difficult to develop over the course of the season.


This is a superb point.

Lots of talk about preferring oversteer or understeer but I suspect these preferences are more like

'I want a neutral handling car which is consistent in the way it responds to steering inputs so I can trust the grip at the front and the back...however if the car is sub optimal and is naturally susceptible to oversteer or understeer I prefer....'

Edited by robefc, 23 January 2011 - 15:47.


#8 robefc

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 15:48

I understand that the previous thread was closed because of posters criticising one another.

Stiffness of the suspension may well be relevant for 2011. A car which is less affected by the bumps might benefit Jenson more than Lewis.


Possibly but then again lewis couldn't throw that car around at all so I think it's just as likely to benefit him.

#9 Grenada

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 16:03

2010 is over for good, and the tests for 2011 will start in a little more than one week's time.

What will the duel bring this year?

Some people claim it will largely depend on the tyres. While at Ferrari and Mercedes GP Massa and Schumacher "are smelling morning air" as the Pirellis supposedly suit their driving styles better, the same may not be true for Jenson. On the contrary, it could turn out the Lewis profits from the new tyres, as his driving style is closer to Michael's and Felipe's than is Jenson's....

That would mean even a larger distance between Hamilton and Button than in 2010. Then again, in which direction did the car development for 2011 lean at McLaren - did they develop more in direction of Lewis' driving style or in direction of Jenson's?

Again, the consensus is that nowadays engineers don't really "lean" in direction of a particular driver - they try to develop the best possible car and it is up to the driver to extract the best from his material.

Let us follow this exiting duel throughout the year, my guess is that the difference between the two will be in Lewis' favour, more pronouncedly so than in 2010, when he was kind of surprised by some special strategic jewels Jenson pulled out of the hat, still reveling in his fresh champion's glory.

Their career stats are so far:

LH 1 WDC 15 wins
JB 1 WDC 9 wins

Let us see how much this scorecard will change in 2011!



Good introduction. :up:

I would hate to surmise or speculate.

I think I'll wait until the first tests to see what the car seems like first, then the Practices at Bahrain. I just hope the car is in the top 2 or 3 and competitive. I would hate to see one car head and shoulders above the rest like the last 2 years.



#10 robefc

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 16:05

Good introduction. :up:

I would hate to surmise or speculate.

I think I'll wait until the first tests to see what the car seems like first, then the Practices at Bahrain. I just hope the car is in the top 2 or 3 and competitive. I would hate to see one car head and shoulders above the rest like the last 2 years.


Even if it was the macca...? :p

#11 Grenada

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 16:06

Even if it was the macca...? :p



I wish!

#12 Lights

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 16:37

New thread, take 2. It remains an interesting duel. Don't expect a lot to change though.

#13 boldhakka

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 16:53

... Then again, in which direction did the car development for 2011 lean at McLaren - did they develop more in direction of Lewis' driving style or in direction of Jenson's? ...


Most of the development was focussed on getting the big 3 right:
1. Exhaust blown diffuser with retarded ignition
2. Fine-tuning and developing the blown rear wing
3. Flexi-wings (though they didn't succeed as much as RBR and Ferrari)

Not to mention dialing these in and getting them to work well with the whole package.

None of those would have had much impact on driving styles, so I'd say they didn't pay much attention to driving styles at all in 2010 (apart from individual setup work obviously).

I think it'll be the same in 2011. We can expect 3-4 radically innovative solutions that all teams will absolutely have to implement to catch up with the ones that got to them first, so they won't have the luxury of fine tuning suspension and other matters too much for each driver. I think the days of Raikkonen vs. Montoya with their completely separate development directions are long gone. Development appears to be much more "macro" these days, with big steps directly attributable to specific innovations that need to be copied from other teams. Most development resources are likely to go in that direction rather than incremental updates that make particular drivers more comfortable (though there will be a few, no doubt).

#14 Grenada

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 17:11

Briatore thinks it will be a 4-way battle this year:

Asked if he saw Ferrari as the favourite for 2011, Briatore replied: "It's early to say. I expect Red Bull to still be strong and McLaren to be competitive once again. I see a four-way battle: [Sebastian] Vettel, Webber, Alonso and [Lewis] Hamilton."


http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/89054

(Still don't agree with Briatore being allowed anywhere near F1 though!)


#15 Rocket73

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 17:42

Some wise words already here. I myself can not help but want the critical factors to help JB and for him to be able to show that he is trully world class. To win two championships would cement this for me.

Reasons to be cheerful:

New tyres - although i don't think we can say that JB struggled with the tyres in the race so much they definitely seemed to be a problem in qualifying. I am not convinced that he is a week qualifier, i remember the BAR days and some exceptional qualifying from him AND 2009 saw some quality performances as well. I think (hope) that the Pirelli's will help jenson by gaining temperature better. I have heard that they seem to wear harder than the Bridgestones and it's common knowledge that they are trying to produce more aggressive rubber. I think (hope) that this will be a much more important factor than front rear bias, yeah they have beefed up the fronts but they also said that they had to balance out the rears as well. More importantly will the higher wear rate finally bring out JB much talked about conservation skills. It should do but we said that last year.

Second year with Macca - as mentioned before hopefully they will have a softer car this year and that would surely suit JB but a full winter's development and input has got to make a difference. Everyone is aware that when JB gets a car he is comfortable with he his very good and makes very few errors. Obviously he needs macca to come up with a quick car or it's game over already but that's the same for Lewis.

Increased min weight - what with KERS back on the menu driver weight could have been a problem like it was in '09 but the nice FIA bumped up the weight to 640kgs.

ARW - i actually think that the adjustable rear wing should help JB this year, it will give him more scope for his 'creative' tyre strategies without so much fear of getting stuck behind Kobayashi.

Lewis private life issues - Does Lewis have a manager yet? Does he still hate his dad? Why doesn't his brother come to races any more? Maybe he has it all sorted out, maybe jenson is more secure.

Reasons to worry -

Lewis is bloody good! - Not to mention the other guys and Red Bull in particular. So much will depend on the cars. If Lewis stops making mistakes and is consistent like 2008 then it's going to be hard for JB to beat him in the same car.

KERS - no doubt this is lewis territory and with the upgrade it will be more of a hit for him. Can JB get it sorted with the simulator AND learn the ARW?
It's not going to help him that's for sure.

Tyres - the Pirelli's may well be front biased in the end and if that makes the back unstable, especially under breaking, that will hinder JB no doubt and will favour Lewis. That will be bad news for Jenson only helped if he can get them hot in qualy.

Innovation - things like f-duct, ebd, kers and all those gizmos just don't sit with Jenson's racing philosophy. He is a pure style racer. Ideally he would like billiard flat circuit, fast successive corners and a perfectly balanced car that works in as linear fashion as possible. Given those conditions he is fast as anyone. Anything that interferes with that takes away from JB. The bgp001 was that car for a while and he was unbeatable. Lewis on the other hand takes all these things in his stride and most likely to use them to his advantage.

At the end of the day if macca make a good car the tyres will be most important... i think.

#16 hodg

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 17:52

I can see Jenson being a bit better this year (although he did better than many people expected), he's got to have had more input into the design of this years car then last year, will that help though....

Edited by hodg, 23 January 2011 - 17:53.


#17 bauss

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 18:01

another thing to consider is, apart from the front tires been reportedly stronger, the front end regulations have been relatively stable for the past 3 years...so I expect 26 front wing to pick up where 25 left off, probably flex n generate even more front downforce.... compared to the rear end where teams have to start with a new philosophy. With weight distribution also been regulated, its quite possible there will be more downforce n grip available at the frontend than backend....


#18 Brandz07

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 18:42

the fronts are stronger but the weight distribution has been pushed back, shouldnt this counter the effect stronger fronts may have in terms of balance?

Edited by Brandz07, 23 January 2011 - 18:42.


#19 Rocket73

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 18:43

another thing to consider is, apart from the front tires been reportedly stronger, the front end regulations have been relatively stable for the past 3 years...so I expect 26 front wing to pick up where 25 left off, probably flex n generate even more front downforce.... compared to the rear end where teams have to start with a new philosophy. With weight distribution also been regulated, its quite possible there will be more downforce n grip available at the frontend than backend....



that makes sense but i hope you are wrong - balance in a racing car is crucial and all teams know that but in the quest for downforce important above all else you would think that they may tend to have a front ended car...

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#20 Bonaventura

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 19:34

Some wise words already here. I myself can not help but want the critical factors to help JB and for him to be able to show that he is trully world class. To win two championships would cement this for me.

Reasons to be cheerful:

Lewis private life issues - Does Lewis have a manager yet? Does he still hate his dad? Why doesn't his brother come to races any more? Maybe he has it all sorted out, maybe jenson is more secure.

Lewis never "hated" his dad
If he did it would have been easier for him .
I think it's difficult for Lewis brother to come to races without his familys help, and since Anthony apparently did not to come to races...

Everybody says it's an advantage for Button to be now the 2nd year at Macca
I think it might be better for Lewis , too since he knows now exactly about Buttons strenght and weaknesses.
and it might be good for Lewis that Mclaren saw, they still need Lewis if they want to win the WDC.
They hired the reigning WDC last year, they bent over backwards with everything to help him strategy-wise and development-wise, and Lewis still got the upper hand
so even with massive help he could not beat Lewis and Lewis was despite some bad luck, private problems , technical problems and a few mistakes in the fight until the end.

Everthing other will depend on the car
and how the MP4-26 works with the tyres.
If it's kind to the tyres, it wil help both
If the car is a tyre -eater, it'll be bad for both, since there was not much difference between Lewis and Button at tyre usage.

We heared Lewis is exited about KERS & the ARW
if the car is good enough, and the tyres are to his likings, it will be a pleasure to watch him race .

Edited by Bonaventura, 23 January 2011 - 19:35.


#21 BillBald

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 19:52

the fronts are stronger but the weight distribution has been pushed back, shouldnt this counter the effect stronger fronts may have in terms of balance?


I'm pretty sure that you would need to push weight distribution forward to counter stronger front tyres.

Do you have a link?



#22 bauss

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 20:02

that makes sense but i hope you are wrong - balance in a racing car is crucial and all teams know that but in the quest for downforce important above all else you would think that they may tend to have a front ended car...


yea may be bollocks, but u get the feeling, if any part will be generating more downforce relative to last years balance, it will be the front.

It may be that some teams or drivers choose to dial out the extra front wing df for a more balanced car, while some drive with the more unbalanced one but with more front rear grip.

If this is the case, Jenson might be in a bit of a bother. His Silverstone qualy performance for example was reported to be due to such imbalance...as the team didnt run the rear end EBD prepared for the front wing iteration they brought. He kept dialling out FW downforce for a more balanced car...which it probably was in the end, just that the car was now slow.

in the 2nd half of 2009, when Mclaren upgraded the Donkey, they had the outwash FW but same fat rear end....I suspect they found more front downforce than rear downforce.... Heikki had major problems making those upgrades work, Lewis didnt. Though, both did complain the car was tricky to drive...

Edited by bauss, 23 January 2011 - 20:03.


#23 aditya-now

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 20:11

Good introduction. :up:


I was at my objective best, Grenada. Needless to say, I would love Jenson to add another WDC to his tally in 2011.

Some wise words already here. I myself can not help but want the critical factors to help JB and for him to be able to show that he is trully world class. To win two championships would cement this for me.


Exactly - for his not just a lucky driver, but indeed a champion in the tradition of the smooth drivers.


#24 trogggy

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 20:20

They hired the reigning WDC last year, they bent over backwards with everything to help him strategy-wise and development-wise, and Lewis still got the upper hand

And they won't do this time around?

#25 robefc

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 20:38

Some wise words already here. I myself can not help but want the critical factors to help JB and for him to be able to show that he is trully world class. To win two championships would cement this for me.

Reasons to be cheerful:

New tyres - although i don't think we can say that JB struggled with the tyres in the race so much they definitely seemed to be a problem in qualifying. I am not convinced that he is a week qualifier, i remember the BAR days and some exceptional qualifying from him AND 2009 saw some quality performances as well. I think (hope) that the Pirelli's will help jenson by gaining temperature better. I have heard that they seem to wear harder than the Bridgestones and it's common knowledge that they are trying to produce more aggressive rubber. I think (hope) that this will be a much more important factor than front rear bias, yeah they have beefed up the fronts but they also said that they had to balance out the rears as well. More importantly will the higher wear rate finally bring out JB much talked about conservation skills. It should do but we said that last year.

I'd really like to hear more about this from some f1 experts. I can't work out whether lots of journalists have swallowed a load of bunkum or whether there's something to it. Goss seemed pretty adamant there was no difference between Lewis and jense and that tyres are simply a resource that you can choose when to use. On the other hand someone like brundle is not to be dismissed lightly. I wonder if it's simply that different styles affect tyres differently in different conditions, e.g. Kovi's struggles in 2008. Therefore in certain circumstances jenson's natural style will preserve tyres better and in others it will be advantage Lewis?

Second year with Macca - as mentioned before hopefully they will have a softer car this year and that would surely suit JB but a full winter's development and input has got to make a difference. Everyone is aware that when JB gets a car he is comfortable with he his very good and makes very few errors. Obviously he needs macca to come up with a quick car or it's game over already but that's the same for Lewis.

I'm not sure what influence the driver has, again this is a topic about which we get varying views in the media. One view is they simply look to make the car as fast as possible given the regs.


Increased min weight - what with KERS back on the menu driver weight could have been a problem like it was in '09 but the nice FIA bumped up the weight to 640kgs.

ARW - i actually think that the adjustable rear wing should help JB this year, it will give him more scope for his 'creative' tyre strategies without so much fear of getting stuck behind Kobayashi.

Agreed, I see this helping jense more than Lewis. Although it could be argued that jenson won't benefit from clever strategies to get him clear air...


Lewis private life issues - Does Lewis have a manager yet? Does he still hate his dad? Why doesn't his brother come to races any more? Maybe he has it all sorted out, maybe jenson is more secure.

Lewis mentioned his personal life in that interview but the main upheaval presumably was at the beginning of the season...look how he drove then. Regardless it sounds like the relationship with his dad is slowly getting better and he's all loved up...

.


Edited by robefc, 23 January 2011 - 20:41.


#26 Bonaventura

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 20:48

And they won't do this time around?

Well,
it had not paid off for Button
if Button could not beat Lewis despite all the things going against him (Lewis) last season,
why would he next?

IMO, if Lewis had more support from the team, at the first races he would have been WDC 2010.
Button had all support anyone could get, it did not pay off.



#27 Bonaventura

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 20:52

I was at my objective best, Grenada. Needless to say, I would love Jenson to add another WDC to his tally in 2011.



Exactly - for his not just a lucky driver, but indeed a champion in the tradition of the smooth drivers.

Nice opening post

& needless to say I would love to see Button to drive for HRT 2011 :)

#28 robefc

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 20:55

IMO, if Lewis had more support from the team, at the first races he would have been WDC 2010.
Button had all support anyone could get, it did not pay off.


Can you give me examples where macca didn't support Lewis adequately?

#29 Bonaventura

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 20:59

Can you give me examples where macca didn't support Lewis adequately?

Some races Lewis had the suboptimal stratgies compared to Button
..."We will all focus very hard to give Jenson the best strategy throughout the race...Lewis doesnt need our help with that".
(I know..... source MW .... I have no link)

Edited by Bonaventura, 23 January 2011 - 21:00.


#30 Brandz07

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 21:10

I'm pretty sure that you would need to push weight distribution forward to counter stronger front tyres.

Do you have a link?


ive heard its mandatory weight distribution isnt it? which is rearwards =understeer and the stronger fronts = oversteer if anything, so they balance each other out, do they not?

i think ive got that right anyway :lol:

#31 Dispenser89

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 21:32

I'm pretty sure that you would need to push weight distribution forward to counter stronger front tyres.

Do you have a link?

There you go from Scarbs. front: 45.5-46.7%, rear: 53.3-54.5%

Edit: Forgot to post my prediction. This year, i reckon the battle will be about the same. Hamilton looking a touch faster, but Button not being far away. Hope Button sorts out his qualifying this year.

Edited by Dispenser89, 23 January 2011 - 21:35.


#32 trogggy

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 21:32

Button had all support anyone could get,

So did Lewis.
It'll be the same this year.
Anything else is just excuses, and Lewis / Jenson haven't even hinted at that.

#33 Mackarel

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 21:35

Well,
it had not paid off for Button
if Button could not beat Lewis despite all the things going against him (Lewis) last season,
why would he next?

IMO, if Lewis had more support from the team, at the first races he would have been WDC 2010.
Button had all support anyone could get, it did not pay off.


No, let bygones be bygones. If Lewis had the right attention he deserved trust me, the idea that the team revolves around him wouldn't die. Jenson deserved the MTC and all that's in it in 2010; anything that makes it clear that come 2011 there shall be no excuses.

I wont say much until the 26 comes out. The testing days with the 25 on pirellis will set the tone though! Who's going to suffer from what! wear or balance? who and what will it be.  ;)

#34 Kvothe

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 21:39

Some races Lewis had the suboptimal stratgies compared to Button
..."We will all focus very hard to give Jenson the best strategy throughout the race...Lewis doesnt need our help with that".
(I know..... source MW .... I have no link)


Thats a bad example, i think it was a race when Jenson had a poor qualifying, and was out of the top 10, and Lewis was near the front, just to put that quote into context.

A proper example would be australia, when Lewis was pitted unneccessarily for a second time (the only front runner to do so) and also put him in the position to be webbered,
while Jenson went on to win the race....it got a lot of conspiracy theorists talking

Edited by Kvothe, 23 January 2011 - 21:41.


#35 Bonaventura

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 21:54

So did Lewis.
It'll be the same this year.
Anything else is just excuses, and Lewis / Jenson haven't even hinted at that.

On Lewis side of the gerage some "miscommunications" happened
the pinnacle was Turkey GP

#36 Watkins74

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 22:11

So did Lewis.
It'll be the same this year.
Anything else is just excuses, and Lewis / Jenson haven't even hinted at that.

It will be interesting in 2011 how many races Ron Dennis will be at. When RD is around I think the balance shifts to Mr. Hamilton as far as team support goes.

Just my opinion as a distant observer. :smoking:

#37 trogggy

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 22:36

On Lewis side of the gerage some "miscommunications" happened
the pinnacle was Turkey GP

This year Mclaren will do all they can to help Button.
This year Mclaren will do all they can to help Hamilton.
Same as last year.
And next year.


#38 Jeag

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 22:44

Some races Lewis had the suboptimal stratgies compared to Button
..."We will all focus very hard to give Jenson the best strategy throughout the race...Lewis doesnt need our help with that".
(I know..... source MW .... I have no link)


please leave that rubbish in the other thread, let this one actually be nice.

#39 P123

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 23:09

It will be interesting in 2011 how many races Ron Dennis will be at. When RD is around I think the balance shifts to Mr. Hamilton as far as team support goes.

Just my opinion as a distant observer. :smoking:


Very distant observer!  ;)

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#40 Mackarel

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 23:26

Anthony needs to be back in the garage. That's what i want to see in 2011. Keep his boy focused and sharp.
2008 was good with Anthony, the same formula can work in 2011. Get hand signals Nicole out and put in somebody who knows what's going on in the garage.
It's not likely to happen because Anthony manages Di Resta, but lewis needs someone in the garage looking out for his interests.
Vettel had Marko and it ensured that he got his share of attention and new parts.

#41 CodeRacing

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 23:55

Yes Lewis definitely needs to keep his focus throughout the season. He seems to be strong in the summer months, then slightly fading downwards as autumn comes along...I think he needs a manager to take stock after 10 races, see where he is, breathe in..and refocus. 2011 is pivotal, In my opinion, if Lewis dominates Button again, the 'equal' treatment stuff may just start to rightfully shift to one driver's garage over another.

I cant help but feel McLaren tried TOO much last year to accommodate Jenson.

#42 Watkins74

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 00:03

Very distant observer! ;)

True. Very true. :smoking:

I just think Ron Dennis is very fond of Lewis.....and why shouldn't he be. I think the team picks up on that vibe. Ron Dennis has the type personality that I believe is far more intimidating than Whitmarshs. When he is around I think the team is on it's toes and perhaps more focused on making sure Lewis is taken care of.

Just my very distant observations :D , perhaps I can be granted some extra speculation room due to the fact it is the off-season.

#43 Bonaventura

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 00:28

Yes Lewis definitely needs to keep his focus throughout the season. He seems to be strong in the summer months, then slightly fading downwards as autumn comes along...I think he needs a manager to take stock after 10 races, see where he is, breathe in..and refocus. 2011 is pivotal, In my opinion, if Lewis dominates Button again, the 'equal' treatment stuff may just start to rightfully shift to one driver's garage over another.

I cant help but feel McLaren tried TOO much last year to accommodate Jenson.

The car was fading downwards at the end of season
2009 the car got better till the season end and Lewis could deliver.
I don't know if the reshuffling and all this accommodation stuff had really paid off
more misscommunications and strategic errors happend than in previous years
F1 is a competition not a harmony workshop
this year it wil only get thougher for McLaren with two one man teams Alonso & Vettel (Ferrari & RBR) as the main competitiors
Both drivers can't allow themselves any "0" races 2011
Button needs to get this things together, too. He showed the tendency to struggle at the 2nd half of the season

#44 robefc

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:09

Some races Lewis had the suboptimal stratgies compared to Button
..."We will all focus very hard to give Jenson the best strategy throughout the race...Lewis doesnt need our help with that".
(I know..... source MW .... I have no link)


I don't think lewis's sub optimal strategies were due to the team not bothering about him and concentrating on button, in oz they took what they thought was the best decision at the time...just like Ferrari in Abu dhabi.

Turkey was just a cock up.

And your quote from mw explains the emphasis on button's strategy in certain races, he qualified down the order so there was more strategy to play with.

As someone else said, the team will be giving both drivers 100%.

Edited by robefc, 24 January 2011 - 01:10.


#45 robefc

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:11

True. Very true. :smoking:

I just think Ron Dennis is very fond of Lewis.....and why shouldn't he be. I think the team picks up on that vibe. Ron Dennis has the type personality that I believe is far more intimidating than Whitmarshs. When he is around I think the team is on it's toes and perhaps more focused on making sure Lewis is taken care of.

Just my very distant observations :D , perhaps I can be granted some extra speculation room due to the fact it is the off-season.


I think everyone sh1ts themselves whenever Ron is about, I'd be a nervous wreck and frantically tidying my desk if he walked past!
my sister's friend is involved quite high up in building the new factory and apparently there have been a few discussions when Ron is unhappy...which basically equals him shouting and demanding things!

#46 tkulla

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:17

I don't think lewis's sub optimal strategies were due to the team not bothering about him and concentrating on button, in oz they took what they thought was the best decision at the time...just like Ferrari in Abu dhabi.

Turkey was just a cock up.

And your quote from mw explains the emphasis on button's strategy in certain races, he qualified down the order so there was more strategy to play with.

As someone else said, the team will be giving both drivers 100%.


I don't think Button's arrival compromised Lewis in any way either (assuming his race engineer would have been promoted anyway). McLaren has plenty of resources to give two drivers all the support they need.

As far as this coming year goes, I think the most important factor for Button is that the team now has a full year of data on him at all the tracks. Last year they were surely "flying blind" a little bit, especially since McLaren is such a data driven team.

Lewis will benefit most from the return of KERS - he'll be far more comfortable with it in the early races than Jenson.

#47 tkulla

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 01:20

I think everyone sh1ts themselves whenever Ron is about, I'd be a nervous wreck and frantically tidying my desk if he walked past!
my sister's friend is involved quite high up in building the new factory and apparently there have been a few discussions when Ron is unhappy...which basically equals him shouting and demanding things!


If that's true, to me that means MW is likely a much better manager than RD for the F1 team. Fear is a lousy motivator for creative technical people - it tends to stifle innovation.

#48 Rocket73

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 05:12

Anthony needs to be back in the garage. That's what i want to see in 2011. Keep his boy focused and sharp.
2008 was good with Anthony, the same formula can work in 2011. Get hand signals Nicole out and put in somebody who knows what's going on in the garage.
It's not likely to happen because Anthony manages Di Resta, but lewis needs someone in the garage looking out for his interests.
Vettel had Marko and it ensured that he got his share of attention and new parts.


I think that this is an important factor for Lewis. His dad had been there from the start and must have been a real issue when they parted. It's not just the fact that you've changed such a long time manager who had helped you from playing with your first rc cars on Blue Peter right through to F1 world champion in your second season but he's your DAD as well! With all the emotional and inbuilt family heirarchy BS that goes with.

I don't know what went on but something happened and why doesn't his brother come to races anymore? Has the whole family ostricized him or something?

This is not good for lewis and i havn't heard of any replacement managers, correct me if i am wrong, so what's the deal? Are Macca still managing him? Could that be seen as favouring him over Jenson?

Even though i am JB man i still love seeing LH race to the best of his abilities and if JB can't be champion lewis makes a damn good supersub so i hope he sorts his sh!t out.

:up:

#49 Rocket73

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 05:19

BTW - i already consider JB to be ahead this season. :up:

Going second with the new car is better than first, you don't want to be dealng with teething problems...

#50 bauss

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:46

BTW - i already consider JB to be ahead this season. :up:

Going second with the new car is better than first, you don't want to be dealng with teething problems...


LH does get the last test day, read what you want into that....