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Lewis and Jenson scorecard 2011 (merged)


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#3701 Rocket73

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 19:54

So show me one driver that doesn't make mistakes. One thing is fact, Hamilton's mistakes get blown out of proportions and are rehashed by the haters over and over. Where as Hamilton fans don't need to point out mistakes by other drivers but can simply point to Hamilton's achievements. To support their claims.


just for the record i am NOT a hamilton hater, i am actually a big fan and i was one of many many people jumping around and punching the air when he overtook glock in brazil and took the championship. (maybe you were implying that i hate hamilton, maybe be you weren't).

and i was countering the claim that hamilton 'rarely makes mistakes'. he plainly does make a lot of mistakes.

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#3702 Rocket73

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 20:00

:kiss:

I knew you wouldn't have any answer to what I said. Jenson is a damn good driver, Lewis is just a bit better. There's no shame in that. My estimation of Jenson actually went UP last year, even though he got beaten pretty soundly.


One thing to consider though. Last year, and this year so far, is good evidence that, had Lewis been driving the BGP001, that championship would've been over even sooner.


he has lost two out of three championships by making silly mistakes. is that what you mean by the season being over sooner?

#3703 AMG FAN

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 20:45

:kiss:

I knew you wouldn't have any answer to what I said. Jenson is a damn good driver, Lewis is just a bit better. There's no shame in that. My estimation of Jenson actually went UP last year, even though he got beaten pretty soundly.


One thing to consider though. Last year, and this year so far, is good evidence that, had Lewis been driving the BGP001, that championship would've been over even sooner.

see i don't like comments like that,you can't just do copy n paste in reality,am not saying Lewis wouldn't have the ability to win a title in a title contender,infact i'd have supported him if he was in the Brawn car but one can't just say if Lewis was in the RBR or Brawn car then the championship would be over sooner rather than later,i believe in butterfly effect and who knows what may have happened,who would have been Lewis teammate? would it have been such an easy ride if it was Button or would it go down to the wire? etc there are so much ifs to consider in this situation.

#3704 AMG FAN

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 20:45

he has lost two out of three championships by making silly mistakes. is that what you mean by the season being over sooner?

if you think that Hamilton lost the title last year by making two mistakes then you clearly don't know how to calculate simple mathematics.

#3705 ImDDAA

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 21:04

Everyone develops differently, I was just pointing out its not unrealistic for Alonso to be paired again with a rookie of similar talent to Hamilton. Hamilton is not so good that he is head and shoulders above all other drivers, if he was he would be destroying Jenson the Journeyman.


Obviously I have a higher opinion of Hamilton than you, he's the best of his generation. However, I didn't say rookie, I specifically avoided that word.

If all Ferrari want is a lap dog for Alonso then keep Massa, but they may want to think about their future and winning more WCC's. Not to be too harsh to Massa as he looked a little better in China but he hasn't really been that great since his accident.

#3706 bonjon1979a

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 21:25

he has lost two out of three championships by making silly mistakes. is that what you mean by the season being over sooner?


You could say he lost last years championship when his wheel rim gave up with a lap to go when running second in Barcelona..

Edited by bonjon1979a, 24 April 2011 - 21:25.


#3707 hotstickyslick

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 21:36

You could say he lost last years championship when his wheel rim gave up with a lap to go when running second in Barcelona..

Indeed. Second place = 18 points. Hamilton's final 2010 championship point deficit = 16 points.

#3708 ImDDAA

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 21:46

Indeed. Second place = 18 points. Hamilton's final 2010 championship point deficit = 16 points.


But of course, that failure will be blamed on Lewis.

#3709 pit5bul

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 21:57

he didnt lost 2 championships cause he made mistakes... he rather got into contention by taking the risks to get him into contender position ! in 2007 he was fighting for the world championship and was ahead compared to his team-mate ( alonso was out of the championship race 4 races before ) and it happened in 2010 again ! LH is getting to fight the championships because he takes risks ( compared with his team-mates ) !

#3710 HAM

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 22:13

he has lost two out of three championships by making silly mistakes. is that what you mean by the season being over sooner?


Please tell me then which other Rookie did a better job? Oh wait he is still the best F1 rookie ever. ^.^ Yeah, you are a Hami fan, believe it yourself. :stoned:

#3711 Clatter

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 22:14

Come on guys, stop feeding the troll.

#3712 HAM

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 22:18

Come on guys, stop feeding the troll.


:D

#3713 P123

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 22:28

But of course, that failure will be blamed on Lewis.


Yeah, one side will say 'silly mistakes', the other 'poor reliabillity'. They are both half right and half wrong.  ;)

#3714 Mauseri

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 22:44

If di Resta was this outstanding good, he would have been in some top team drivers development programme
and got a seat there like Lewis

That is not how life goes. Not everyone gets the same chances and opportunities. And depending on backround and opportunities the path will not always develope as you would think. Two identical persons with different circumstances could develope totally different outcomings.

#3715 HAM

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 22:47

That is not how life goes. Not everyone gets the same chances and opportunities. And depending on backround and opportunities the path will not always develope as you would think. Two identical persons with different circumstances could develope totally different outcomings.


True.

#3716 Con1

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 00:31

What is going on in here. In the space of three or four days this has gone from some friendly chat to "My dad is bigger than your dad..."

I think they are the best combo on the grid. Both have/could win the WDC. No other team has that. Webber and Massa aren't going to (or be allowed to for that matter).

I rate Lewis above Jenson. I think Lewis is able to get more out of a car. Jenson doesn't have the ability to take an average car by the scruff of the neck. He needs the car to be balanced or he is no where. Lewis can drive round that kind of issue.

I'll accept Lewis makes mistakes. But so does every driver on the grid including Jenson (e.g failing to pit and then turning up at the wrong one last week!)

I'm perfectly happy to accept others will see it differently and see JB as better.

But I think this season will prove matters one way or another. If JB can't beat Lewis this year (a year when the tyres are everything/JB is the supposed master of smooth driving and managing the tyres/Lewis is accused of abusing them) then the arguement will be over in my book. If it goes the other way then I'll accept I under rated JB.

And at the moment the score is :-

Quali Lewis 2 Jenson 1
Race Lewis 2 Jenson 1
Wins Lewis 1 Jenson 0
Poles Lewis 0 Jenson 0
Overtakes on each other Lewis 1 Jenson 0

I could add a category for mistakes (I'd go Lewis 1 [tyres in Malaysia] Jenson 3 [Massa pass in Aus, pitting late in China, and missing his pit box in China]) but that is likely to start yet more arguments so let's keep that off the score card as it's open to too much interpretation.

#3717 ArtShelley

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 07:19

Well not a rookie, Ferrari dont take rookies.... but yes there are some good young drivers.

But on the other hand something I saw in Barcelona in the last test on the wet day has made a deep imprint on my mind: It was pooring rain, the Macca had horrible rear instability problems at that point (before they put the current exhaust on), the Merc looked the best of the 3 or 4 cars there that day. LH had to correct the rear stepping out pretty much every corner - the Merc actually looked pretty good despite the wet conditions... yet LH was pretty much inch perfect even though he was pushing really hard and NR (who was driving for Merc that day) was not pushing as hard (as he was going through the pits most laps) was making error after error in the the wet ... and I asked myself, just how good is LH, if NR is considered to be one of the best drivers at the moment?

It is possible to be a good, fast, consistent driver who might well be able to push FA but still not be in LH's class... just like JB is a very good driver who is good enough to be the WDC but who most race weekends just does not look capable of beating LH in the same car.

Remember that up to 2 races before the end of the 07 season it looked like LH was going to beat FA soundly... and he was only pegged back by some positively bizzare events in the last two races.

IMO drivers of LH's quality are rarer than you seem to realise.


Your post is full of severe contradictions. Take for example the Merc. You said it looked pretty good. You said NR was not pushing very hard. But you then went on to observe that NR was making error after error. So that means, you observed the car/driver to not be hitting every apex (e.g going wide, locking brakes, correcting slides etc). So based on those observations, how can you say - a) the car looked good, and b) the driver wasn't pushing hard?

Following on from that, you said the McLaren looked horrible. You said LH was pushing really hard. Then you go on to say that you observed LH to be inch perfect. That means, your observations were that the car/driver was hitting every apex. How can you say that?

#3718 mlsnoopy

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 07:26

just for the record i am NOT a hamilton hater, i am actually a big fan and i was one of many many people jumping around and punching the air when he overtook glock in brazil and took the championship. (maybe you were implying that i hate hamilton, maybe be you weren't).

and i was countering the claim that hamilton 'rarely makes mistakes'. he plainly does make a lot of mistakes.


Than you should make a statistical analise how many mistakes does he do and compare it other drivers. fact is that all the drivers make mistakes and he is not more mistake prone than other drivers.

#3719 Rocket73

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 08:32

Than you should make a statistical analise how many mistakes does he do and compare it other drivers. fact is that all the drivers make mistakes and he is not more mistake prone than other drivers.


which part of the sentence 'i was countering the claim the he rarely makes mistakes' don't you understand?

amazing how so many are blatantly ignoring parts of my posts so they can attack me. lol and I'M the troll.

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#3720 jjcale

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:05

In a few years we might see the Lewis and Nyck (de Vries) scorecard. The way Nyck has and is performing, similar to Lewis in his early days lower categories (Nyck also part of McLaren's young driver programme) I suspect he will give Lewis a whole load of curry if/when they finally become team mates.


That would be fun to watch... Hopefully Macca produce a good car worthy of both their talents.

#3721 Grenada

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:10

What is going on in here. In the space of three or four days this has gone from some friendly chat to "My dad is bigger than your dad..."

I think they are the best combo on the grid. Both have/could win the WDC. No other team has that. Webber and Massa aren't going to (or be allowed to for that matter).

I rate Lewis above Jenson. I think Lewis is able to get more out of a car. Jenson doesn't have the ability to take an average car by the scruff of the neck. He needs the car to be balanced or he is no where. Lewis can drive round that kind of issue.

I'll accept Lewis makes mistakes. But so does every driver on the grid including Jenson (e.g failing to pit and then turning up at the wrong one last week!)

I'm perfectly happy to accept others will see it differently and see JB as better.

But I think this season will prove matters one way or another. If JB can't beat Lewis this year (a year when the tyres are everything/JB is the supposed master of smooth driving and managing the tyres/Lewis is accused of abusing them) then the arguement will be over in my book. If it goes the other way then I'll accept I under rated JB.

And at the moment the score is :-

Quali Lewis 2 Jenson 1
Race Lewis 2 Jenson 1
Wins Lewis 1 Jenson 0
Poles Lewis 0 Jenson 0
Overtakes on each other Lewis 1 Jenson 0

I could add a category for mistakes (I'd go Lewis 1 [tyres in Malaysia] Jenson 3 [Massa pass in Aus, pitting late in China, and missing his pit box in China]) but that is likely to start yet more arguments so let's keep that off the score card as it's open to too much interpretation.


Actually mistakes is a good category to add because that is one of the biggest things about Button/Hamilton that Hamilton is beaten over the head about - that Hamilton makes loads of mistakes.

#3722 jjcale

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:20

Your post is full of severe contradictions. Take for example the Merc. You said it looked pretty good. You said NR was not pushing very hard. But you then went on to observe that NR was making error after error. So that means, you observed the car/driver to not be hitting every apex (e.g going wide, locking brakes, correcting slides etc). So based on those observations, how can you say - a) the car looked good, and b) the driver wasn't pushing hard?

Following on from that, you said the McLaren looked horrible. You said LH was pushing really hard. Then you go on to say that you observed LH to be inch perfect. That means, your observations were that the car/driver was hitting every apex. How can you say that?


I think you are looking for contradictions.

I am not going to bother explaining why the macca was not "good" at that point in time. That is (or should be) common knowledge.

It should also be common knowledge that the Merc was a much better car than the Macca at that point.

Now is it possible to tell that is a driver is pushing... No offence - but do you watch much racing?? Sorry, I am not going to answer that either. That's basic.

Can a driver be inch perfect whilst pushing in a bad car.. yes. But it takes a lot of skill - which is my point. [edit: I see why say there is a contratiction now - no I did not mean in perfect re hitting apexes - I meant inch perfect with his corrections - sorry if that was not clear]

And no... I did not say the car was hitting every apex... it was not good enough to do that + it was wet. But LH was getting as close as the car would allow to doing that ... how do I know: because he was correcting massively just to stop from spinning to the point where he was using all of the track... ie there was nothing more he could do - other than slow down. Perhaps I should carify that the was inch perfect in his corrections. If he let the back step out any more than he did he would have spun/gone off track IMO... it was masterful car control.

Rosberg's main mistake was running off the track... ie misjudging the grip level (his backend was fine but he had a bit of understeer so he had trouble getting into the corners while LH had trouble getting out of them :lol:). And he was doing it pretty consistently (ie ever couple of laps) coming down to the chicane.

Edited by jjcale, 25 April 2011 - 10:08.


#3723 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 09:32

Never going to happen. I am admire Lewis greatly but it's already written into the sands of time that he won't be the best ever. He's too emotional and prone to mistakes. Blistering fast yes but strategically competent? Not sure about that and definitely not best ever.

I am an ardent Jenson fan but I am astute enough to acknowledge that he won't be 'best ever' and it's highly debatable whether Lewis can beat him. It was only because finga boy took him out in Spa that Lewis had any sort of victory in the championship.

If you ask me they are perfectly matched and i can't wait till qualy in Istanbul to see them at it again...



Perfectly matched? Evenly matched perhaps?

The only true measure of greatness is how you compare against your peers n the same car

Lewis has never been beaten by a teammate, neither was Fangio
Lewis has max less mistakes in his first 4 years than Senna did in his
Lewis has beaten two reigning WCs as teammates

Button is in his 11 th season, spent last season behind Lewis 70% on track
Button has been beaten by poor teammates

You will have to face the best fact of all;

Ron Dennis has said that the greatest Mclaren drivers were Lewis, Senna and Mika, equally

I think your argument has just been crushed

Or maybe you just have a crush

#3724 robefc

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 10:38

I have to disagree with that. Drivers that are too hard on their cars suffer more failures. Remember Alain Prost's famous quote? "The key to F1 is to win, going as slowly as possible" There is a reason why he won 3 championships. For some reason Lewis is waived this shortcoming by his fans. (not necessarily aimed at you halifax). I agree with your second sentence. Mistakes cost him that championship.

I am convinced that Jenson would have put less stress on that wheel rim and lasted one more lap out of 60 odd. That's the whole point of my argument - yes lewis has more ultimate pace but he makes much more mistakes and is harder on his car than Jenson.

What is so damn out of order with having that opinion? Why is it apparently OK to make massive presumptions about Lewis being 'just better' than JB but if someone puts forward an argument for Jenson's case, jeez what a troll!!
:wave:


I didn't realise I could credit lewis with the fact he's had very few mechanical retirements in his time in F1.

Good to know he's talented in that area too :up:

#3725 AMG FAN

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 11:17

I have to disagree with that. Drivers that are too hard on their cars suffer more failures. Remember Alain Prost's famous quote? "The key to F1 is to win, going as slowly as possible" There is a reason why he won 3 championships. For some reason Lewis is waived this shortcoming by his fans. (not necessarily aimed at you halifax). I agree with your second sentence. Mistakes cost him that championship.

I am convinced that Jenson would have put less stress on that wheel rim and lasted one more lap out of 60 odd. That's the whole point of my argument - yes lewis has more ultimate pace but he makes much more mistakes and is harder on his car than Jenson.

What is so damn out of order with having that opinion? Why is it apparently OK to make massive presumptions about Lewis being 'just better' than JB but if someone puts forward an argument for Jenson's case, jeez what a troll!!
:wave:

so you are convinced that Jenson would save a faulty rim from failing,how do you come to the conclusion that you are even convinced about it?
people think you are out of order because the examples you show are far from reality for example when you say stupid things like "am convinced Button would make the rims last longer" when there is no proof whatsoever that Lewis driving style caused the rim failure or when there isn't proof that Button is the easier driver....when even non Hamilton fans feels that your post is ridiculous then there must be some truth of some sort to it,everyone can't all possibly be wrong with the exception of you ol' wise one.

#3726 skid solo

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 11:30

Remember Alain Prost's famous quote? "The key to F1 is to win, going as slowly as possible"


The problem with that philosophy arises when you put an Ayrton Senna in the Teams other car. You can't go as slowly as possible when the other guy is going as fast as possible.

#3727 P123

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 11:46

I have to disagree with that. Drivers that are too hard on their cars suffer more failures. For some reason Lewis is waived this shortcoming by his fans.


Lets look at some facts regarding your comparison between Button and Hamilton...

Out of his 74 GP started, Hamilton has retired due to reliability issues on 3 occassions. 4% of races - 'too hard on his car' hit rate.

Out of his 192 GP started, Button has retired due to reliability issues on 34 occassions. 17.7% of races- 'too hard on his car' hit rate. (I even helped JB out by not including Monaco last year)

Out of his 74 GP started, Hamilton has retired due to crashes/collisions/spun off on 6 occassions. 8.1% of races- costly mistakes (I'm assuming you would blame all of these retirements on Hamilton)

Out of his 192 GP started, Button has retired due to crashes/collisons/spun off on 17 occassions. 8.8% of races

So, you see, what you claim as a shortcoming isn't really a shortcoming, especially when compared to the driver you hold up as a shining light of mistake free car loving racing. It would be nice if Lewis had 100% reliability and never made any mistakes. But this is F1. Drivers take it to the edge, and this pays off in spades for Hamilton, as well as being occassionally costly. From the championship table last season it would appear that Hamilton's approach was superior to that of Button's. In fact, Button, the less mistake prone and most reliable of racers finished behind four drivers who made more errors and suffered more unreliability than he did. Nope, I'm quite happy to waive the perceived shortcoming you attribute to Hamilton, mainly because it's not much of a shortcoming.





#3728 Lazy

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 12:42

Lets look at some facts regarding your comparison between Button and Hamilton...

Out of his 74 GP started, Hamilton has retired due to reliability issues on 3 occassions. 4% of races - 'too hard on his car' hit rate.

Out of his 192 GP started, Button has retired due to reliability issues on 34 occassions. 17.7% of races- 'too hard on his car' hit rate. (I even helped JB out by not including Monaco last year)

Out of his 74 GP started, Hamilton has retired due to crashes/collisions/spun off on 6 occassions. 8.1% of races- costly mistakes (I'm assuming you would blame all of these retirements on Hamilton)

Out of his 192 GP started, Button has retired due to crashes/collisons/spun off on 17 occassions. 8.8% of races

So, you see, what you claim as a shortcoming isn't really a shortcoming, especially when compared to the driver you hold up as a shining light of mistake free car loving racing. It would be nice if Lewis had 100% reliability and never made any mistakes. But this is F1. Drivers take it to the edge, and this pays off in spades for Hamilton, as well as being occassionally costly. From the championship table last season it would appear that Hamilton's approach was superior to that of Button's. In fact, Button, the less mistake prone and most reliable of racers finished behind four drivers who made more errors and suffered more unreliability than he did. Nope, I'm quite happy to waive the perceived shortcoming you attribute to Hamilton, mainly because it's not much of a shortcoming.


Not really fair to compare when Jenson spent so much time in self destructing Hondas (in an era when cars were much less reliable) in midfield getting rammed by all and sundry.

They have only been in comparable equipment in the last 2 years and this one.

2009:

Jenson: Belgium - Rammed by Grosjean - no fault

Lewis: Australia - Disqualified - part fault
Belgium - Rammed by Alguersuari - no fault
Brazil - Brake issue - part fault

2010:

Jenson: Monaco - Sidepod plug left in by engineer - no fault
Belgium - Rammed by Vettel - no fault

Lewis: Spain - Wheelrim - part fault
Hungary - Gearbox - part fault
Italy - Hit Massa - whole fault
Singapore - Incident with Webber - part fault

2011: No issues

Nobody can know how much a driver is to blame for mechanical issues but it cannot be denied that drivers have some effect on this so I've assigned part fault.

So in all Jenson has had 3 retirements through absolutely no fault of his own.

Lewis has had 7 retirements, 1 no fault, 5 part fault and 1 totally his fault.

Slightly different story.


#3729 AMG FAN

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 12:48

Not really fair to compare when Jenson spent so much time in self destructing Hondas (in an era when cars were much less reliable) in midfield getting rammed by all and sundry.

They have only been in comparable equipment in the last 2 years and this one.

2009:

Jenson: Belgium - Rammed by Grosjean - no fault

Lewis: Australia - Disqualified - part fault
Belgium - Rammed by Alguersuari - no fault
Brazil - Brake issue - part fault

2010:

Jenson: Monaco - Sidepod plug left in by engineer - no fault
Belgium - Rammed by Vettel - no fault

Lewis: Spain - Wheelrim - part fault
Hungary - Gearbox - part fault
Italy - Hit Massa - whole fault
Singapore - Incident with Webber - part fault

2011: No issues

Nobody can know how much a driver is to blame for mechanical issues but it cannot be denied that drivers have some effect on this so I've assigned part fault.

So in all Jenson has had 3 retirements through absolutely no fault of his own.

Lewis has had 7 retirements, 1 no fault, 5 part fault and 1 totally his fault.

Slightly different story.

exactly but someone like rocket can sit there and tell you that a car that failed in Lewis hand but not in Jenson's hand,according to his theory,regardless of the flaws of those Hondas Button should always have been able to finish because he is a smooth driver...i'd also like to know how you could blame Lewis partly for Hungary when there was indeed a problem with the rim? infact i want to know how you reached the conclusion that those retirements were partly Lewis fault without any proof,even you said that we can not know how much a driver is to blame for a mechanical issue.

Edited by AMG FAN, 25 April 2011 - 12:51.


#3730 P123

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 12:52

Not really fair to compare when Jenson spent so much time in self destructing Hondas (in an era when cars were much less reliable) in midfield getting rammed by all and sundry.


Well, you have pretty much answered the futility there in apportioning blame to drivers over reliability issues. It's more of a function of the engineering of the car, which you seem to consider when dismissing Button's failures yet then go on to ignore in your quest to apportion partial blame on Hamilton with regards any of his unreliability issues.

It is surprising though that you can attribute a brake issue in Abu Dhabi to Hamilton. Did he suddenly drive differently in that race to have one brake wear after 20 laps? Also the wheel rim- was he driving differently all of a sudden, or would common sense not lead you to the fact that one of the wheel guns was incorrectly torqued which meant the wheel did not go on as intended? Wheel failures aren't the sort of things drivers normally have in mind....

Edited by P123, 25 April 2011 - 13:00.


#3731 ArtShelley

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 13:22

I have to disagree with that. Drivers that are too hard on their cars suffer more failures. Remember Alain Prost's famous quote? "The key to F1 is to win, going as slowly as possible"

I am convinced that Jenson would have put less stress on that wheel rim and lasted one more lap out of 60 odd.


Alas, you might actually have a point in applying the above to Jenson IF only he had won, going as slowly as possible, in Turkey. Or finished 2nd. Or 3rd. Or even 4th. Unfortunately for him, and you, he put so little stress on that wheel rim that he finished safely out of all those aforementioned positions. :lol:


#3732 Lazy

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 13:26

exactly but someone like rocket can sit there and tell you that a car that failed in Lewis hand but not in Jenson's hand,according to his theory,regardless of the flaws of those Hondas Button should always have been able to finish because he is a smooth driver...i'd also like to know how you could blame Lewis partly for Hungary when there was indeed a problem with the rim? infact i want to know how you reached the conclusion that those retirements were partly Lewis fault without any proof,even you said that we can not know how much a driver is to blame for a mechanical issue.



Well, you have pretty much answered the futility there in apportioning blame to drivers over reliability issues. It's more of a function of the engineering of the car, although it still doesn't refute the general point that Hamilton is no more hard on his car than Button.

It is surprising though that you can attribute a brake issue in Abu Dhabi to Hamilton. Did he suddenly drive differently in that race to have one brake wear after 20 laps? Also the wheel rim- was he driving differently all of a sudden, or would common sense not lead you to the fact that one of the wheel guns was incorrectly torqued which meant the wheel did not go on as intended? Wheel failures aren't the sort of things drivers normally have in mind....


Spain was the rim I believe and Hungary the gearbox, the brake issue was Brazil.

As I said, nobody can know whether a particular incident was driver fault or production fault. Equally it cannot be denied that the way you drive the car effects it's reliability, this is a fact of racing. The likelyhood is that some of the of the incidents were production faults and some driver faults. If you consider the gearbox issue for instance, Lewis broke 3 gearboxes to Jensons none, so it's hard to absolve him of all responsibility. Therefore you can guess and say 3 were production and 2 were driver or assign part fault to all (more accurate I believe because it's generally a bit of both ) . If you like I could say 3 totally his fault and 4 no fault but I think that gives a less accurate picture.

I'm not applying fault to any particular incident , apart from Massa :)

#3733 ArtShelley

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 13:27

I think you are looking for contradictions.

I am not going to bother explaining why the macca was not "good" at that point in time. That is (or should be) common knowledge.

It should also be common knowledge that the Merc was a much better car than the Macca at that point.

Now is it possible to tell that is a driver is pushing... No offence - but do you watch much racing?? Sorry, I am not going to answer that either. That's basic.

Can a driver be inch perfect whilst pushing in a bad car.. yes. But it takes a lot of skill - which is my point. [edit: I see why say there is a contratiction now - no I did not mean in perfect re hitting apexes - I meant inch perfect with his corrections - sorry if that was not clear]

And no... I did not say the car was hitting every apex... it was not good enough to do that + it was wet. But LH was getting as close as the car would allow to doing that ... how do I know: because he was correcting massively just to stop from spinning to the point where he was using all of the track... ie there was nothing more he could do - other than slow down. Perhaps I should carify that the was inch perfect in his corrections. If he let the back step out any more than he did he would have spun/gone off track IMO... it was masterful car control.

Rosberg's main mistake was running off the track... ie misjudging the grip level (his backend was fine but he had a bit of understeer so he had trouble getting into the corners while LH had trouble getting out of them :lol:). And he was doing it pretty consistently (ie ever couple of laps) coming down to the chicane.


Ok that makes a little more sense. Yes I did misunderstand when you said "inch perfect" to mean hitting apexes etc.

I still think the judgement is not purely sound. Why? Because understeer can be a very difficult beast to tame in a racing car. At least oversteer can be corrected with the steering wheel. Understeer may not be as demanding on a driver's reflexes, but unfortunately there isn't much a driver can do against an understeering car except simply go slower.

#3734 Kvothe

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 13:30

Not really fair to compare when Jenson spent so much time in self destructing Hondas (in an era when cars were much less reliable) in midfield getting rammed by all and sundry.

They have only been in comparable equipment in the last 2 years and this one.

2009:

Jenson: Belgium - Rammed by Grosjean - no fault

Lewis: Australia - Disqualified - part fault
Belgium - Rammed by Alguersuari - no fault
Brazil - Brake issue - part fault

2010:

Jenson: Monaco - Sidepod plug left in by engineer - no fault
Belgium - Rammed by Vettel - no fault

Lewis: Spain - Wheelrim - part fault
Hungary - Gearbox - part fault
Italy - Hit Massa - whole fault
Singapore - Incident with Webber - part fault

2011: No issues

Nobody can know how much a driver is to blame for mechanical issues but it cannot be denied that drivers have some effect on this so I've assigned part fault.

So in all Jenson has had 3 retirements through absolutely no fault of his own.

Lewis has had 7 retirements, 1 no fault, 5 part fault and 1 totally his fault.

Slightly different story.


I'm sorry but your attempts to try and justify this fallacy that the car broke because of Lewis is just absurd.
First of all, you say its not really fair to compare Jenson in the self destructing Honda's, but that statement contradicts everything else you are going to say,
as by your logic:

Nobody can know how much a driver is to blame for mechanical issues but it cannot be denied that drivers have some effect on this so I've assigned part fault.

Thus no matter what you say, Jenson is partly at fault for every issue, unless you are poorly attempting to create some form of paradox.

Next that statement is incredible simplistic. If you look at the first two years of Lewis' career he rarely had any mechanical failures, while both Kova and Alonso had more then him,
this was despite him being in contention and winning a world championship, so I think we can all agree he was pushing really hard. Yet this example would disprove the point you just made.

This statement is also simplistic in that we know cars have failure due to design. Look at Adrian Newey's cars for example. They are known noturiously to have unreliabilty issues, and to break down,
but yet again by your logic it would be because all the drivers who ever drove them would be partly at fault, and nothing to do with the radical designs.

We saw Webber pushing it all last year, yet Seb had the reliability problems. This year Seb has qualified for pole 3 times and won two race, yet has had relatively no reliability issues , whilst Webber has had all the problems, but no it must be the drivers.

You also give what i can only call as an incorrect and inconsistent summary of some but not all the retirements of both 2009 and 2010.
Incorrect because you atribute some errors to the wrong race, especially because i believe he suffered the brake failure in Abu Dhabi 2009, but came third in Brazil 2009.
Inconsistent because you mention Lewis' disqualification, despite this having nothing to do with reliability issues.
Your willing to totally absolve Jenson of blame of Monaco 2010, because an engineer left a sidepod plug in, yet willing to attribute part fault (through no explanation) for
Lewis's wheel rim failure in Spain despite it occuring because one of the engineers messes up during the pitstop. But by this point I expect nothing less of you.

Overall what I am witnessing is the sad attempt to futilely give Jenson something at the expense of Lewis.
China 2010 finally dispelled the rumours about tyres, and Jenson managing them better. and the
more ludicrous face saving claim of him, being better at tyre management over the whole weekend :rolleyes:
He was supposed to be more cerebral and thinking, yet we saw the redmist in Australia, and saw him crack under pressure in Turkey with Vettel breathing down his neck  ;)
So now it is he manages his car better then Lewis. I have no doubt that this one will be soon dispelled. Lewis can drive through problems, lets see if Button can as well.
In the end the scorecard is:
Qualifying 2-1
Race 2-1
Wins 1-0
errors 1-2


.

Edited by Kvothe, 25 April 2011 - 13:35.


#3735 ArtShelley

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 13:37

I think it's absolutely ridiculous to even assign "part fault" to a driver for instances such as wheel rim failure when he hadn't hit a thing, no incident, no contact, no running off the road all race.

There simply is no pattern. Webber has had one of the most shocking amounts of car failures of anyone throughout his career. Yet in 2010, he had the best reliability of all the 5 championship contenders and far better than his team mate, Seb.

Finally, even if it were true, that very example proves that speed is far more important than taking care of the car. For if Seb's massive unreliability (worst of the 5 contenders) was partly his fault, he still beat his team mate who had the best reliability. I rest my case.

#3736 gricey1981

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 13:39

Well it is clear ot see that the only reason that Lewis can beat Jenson is pure luck and quite possibly dastardly cheating. Thats all.

Jenson is so smooth that he has in fact become a living breathing aerodynamic device. his smoothness reaches out and smoothes the airflow into perfect smoothiness that only a smooth smoothable smoother like Jenson can smooth.

Anyone who discounts this theory is just wrong so there

Edited by gricey1981, 25 April 2011 - 13:40.


#3737 Lazy

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 13:41

Apologies if I attributed incidents to the wrong races, it was hastily knocked up from Wiki.

Kvothe: It's hard not to consider the DQ as a part fault retirement.

The early part of Jensons career was before engine and gearbox limitations so not comparable, it would be like comparing tyre wear this year to last year.

#3738 jjcale

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 13:44

Ok that makes a little more sense. Yes I did misunderstand when you said "inch perfect" to mean hitting apexes etc.

I still think the judgement is not purely sound. Why? Because understeer can be a very difficult beast to tame in a racing car. At least oversteer can be corrected with the steering wheel. Understeer may not be as demanding on a driver's reflexes, but unfortunately there isn't much a driver can do against an understeering car except simply go slower.


Yeah but he was not just missing apexes... he was going off track.... he simply could not find the limit.

#3739 jjcale

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 13:45

Apologies if I attributed incidents to the wrong races, it was hastily knocked up from Wiki.

Kvothe: It's hard not to consider the DQ as a part fault retirement.

The early part of Jensons career was before engine and gearbox limitations so not comparable, it would be like comparing tyre wear this year to last year.



... dude, I cant believe youre still going on about the wheel rim. Let it go man :lol:

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#3740 Lazy

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 14:32

... dude, I cant believe youre still going on about the wheel rim. Let it go man :lol:


Somebody else brought it up :D

#3741 Lazy

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 14:35

Alas, you might actually have a point in applying the above to Jenson IF only he had won, going as slowly as possible, in Turkey. Or finished 2nd. Or 3rd. Or even 4th. Unfortunately for him, and you, he put so little stress on that wheel rim that he finished safely out of all those aforementioned positions. :lol:


I thought he did come 2nd.

Edit: Oh wait, you mean Spain :)

Edited by Lazy, 25 April 2011 - 14:36.


#3742 robefc

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 14:44

Somebody else brought it up :D


:lol:

We've been through this before but let me ask the following questions...

If lewis is so hard on his car why was his record of mechanical problems prior to 2010 probably one of the best of the entire grid?

If someone doesn't fit a wheel nut properly shouldn't that be the cause of blame in barcelona rather than hamilton's driving, which didn't seem to blow any other wheels last year?

If he's so hard on gearboxes how come the majority last 4 races but the one in japan didn't manage half a race?

If the gearbox is damaged in a crash (singapore-i would suggest racing incident so not lewis's fault but either way) and the team decide to keep it despite being allowed a free change but it then malfunctions don't the team deserve the blame there?

When it comes to race ending mistakes i've no quibble with you there, lewis is higher risk than button so it's inevitable that he'll make more mistakes or have more racing incidents.

#3743 Lazy

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 14:44

I think it's absolutely ridiculous to even assign "part fault" to a driver for instances such as wheel rim failure when he hadn't hit a thing, no incident, no contact, no running off the road all race.

There simply is no pattern. Webber has had one of the most shocking amounts of car failures of anyone throughout his career. Yet in 2010, he had the best reliability of all the 5 championship contenders and far better than his team mate, Seb.

Finally, even if it were true, that very example proves that speed is far more important than taking care of the car. For if Seb's massive unreliability (worst of the 5 contenders) was partly his fault, he still beat his team mate who had the best reliability. I rest my case.



Totally agree. My father used to design racing cars and he used to race them, he always said it was a balance. Drive too fast and you damage your car, too slow and your, well, too slow.

#3744 ArtShelley

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 14:58

I thought he did come 2nd.

Edit: Oh wait, you mean Spain :)


Sorry yes I meant Spain!

#3745 ArtShelley

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 15:02

Totally agree. My father used to design racing cars and he used to race them, he always said it was a balance. Drive too fast and you damage your car, too slow and your, well, too slow.


This implies that the driver's limit was higher than the car's limit? At least for F1, I would rather it be about the bravery of the driver - the ones that go as close to, and sometimes on or even over step, the car's limit in order to be competitive in a car that wasn't the best. Or to beat their team mate.

#3746 Lazy

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 15:12

:lol:

We've been through this before but let me ask the following questions...

If lewis is so hard on his car why was his record of mechanical problems prior to 2010 probably one of the best of the entire grid?
Umm.

If someone doesn't fit a wheel nut properly shouldn't that be the cause of blame in barcelona rather than hamilton's driving, which didn't seem to blow any other wheels last year?
The fact they he was classified meant that he very nearly made it to the end so it's not hard to see that if he had been just a little less hard on the kerbs etc he might well have made it. I know he couldn't have known that but these are the reasons drivers like Jenson try to avoid hitting the kerbs too hard. Not just for wheel hubs but for all components in a car. Brundle quite often talks about the kerbs for this reason.

If he's so hard on gearboxes how come the majority last 4 races but the one in japan didn't manage half a race?
Not sure about the details on that one, but probably production fault. This is why I give part fault, some will be production faults some driver, we can't know which.

If the gearbox is damaged in a crash (singapore-i would suggest racing incident so not lewis's fault but either way) and the team decide to keep it despite being allowed a free change but it then malfunctions don't the team deserve the blame there?
That's speculation, nobody knows whether the crash effected that failure or not. Certainly in hindsight it would have been better to change it to be safe but they must have had their reasons, unfortunately McLaren are not very forthcoming on these things. I will say again though that he broke 3 gearboxes to Jensons none, so it's hard not give at least a portion of the blame.

When it comes to race ending mistakes i've no quibble with you there, lewis is higher risk than button so it's inevitable that he'll make more mistakes or have more racing incidents.


As Art Shelley says, it's a balance between pace and reliability, and Lewis seems to be on the right side of that balance. But I think a little more tuning to that balance could pay dividends for him and I see this year he's thinking that way too. Brundle is talking about how smooth he is this year, and saving a set of softs for China was smart.

Edited by Lazy, 25 April 2011 - 15:12.


#3747 hotstickyslick

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 15:13

This implies that the driver's limit was higher than the car's limit? At least for F1, I would rather it be about the bravery of the driver - the ones that go as close to, and sometimes on or even over step, the car's limit in order to be competitive in a car that wasn't the best. Or to beat their team mate.

You cannot drive a car over the limit.

#3748 Dunder

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 15:14

:lol:

We've been through this before but let me ask the following questions...

If lewis is so hard on his car why was his record of mechanical problems prior to 2010 probably one of the best of the entire grid?

If someone doesn't fit a wheel nut properly shouldn't that be the cause of blame in barcelona rather than hamilton's driving, which didn't seem to blow any other wheels last year?

If he's so hard on gearboxes how come the majority last 4 races but the one in japan didn't manage half a race?

If the gearbox is damaged in a crash (singapore-i would suggest racing incident so not lewis's fault but either way) and the team decide to keep it despite being allowed a free change but it then malfunctions don't the team deserve the blame there?

When it comes to race ending mistakes i've no quibble with you there, lewis is higher risk than button so it's inevitable that he'll make more mistakes or have more racing incidents.


More to the point, how can ANY driver be "so hard" on a semi-automatic sequential gearbox?
The direction this thread has taken is bizarre.


#3749 robefc

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 15:18

As Art Shelley says, it's a balance between pace and reliability, and Lewis seems to be on the right side of that balance. But I think a little more tuning to that balance could pay dividends for him and I see this year he's thinking that way too. Brundle is talking about how smooth he is this year, and saving a set of softs for China was smart.


Not so sure about the latter point.

Lewis possibly lost out on second place and then was demoted to a net 5th i think it was after the first stint thanks to being behind his teammate. His brand new set of softs were only used for 10 laps in the second stint.

And hey, you didn't answer any of my questions! :p

Edited by robefc, 25 April 2011 - 15:21.


#3750 Grenada

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 15:20

Well it is clear ot see that the only reason that Lewis can beat Jenson is pure luck and quite possibly dastardly cheating. Thats all.

Jenson is so smooth that he has in fact become a living breathing aerodynamic device. his smoothness reaches out and smoothes the airflow into perfect smoothiness that only a smooth smoothable smoother like Jenson can smooth.

Anyone who discounts this theory is just wrong so there




:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

And the winner of the prize for most mentions/permutations of "smooth" in a sentence about Jenson Button is: gricey1981! (And he didn't mention Jessica once!)