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#1 HistoryFan

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 15:37

Many drivers came from zero to hero and made a lot of money.

But are there also examples the other way round? That drivers lost all their belongings because of racing?

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#2 Michael Ferner

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 16:53

Certainly more than of the first type!! But, people who lose their money by unfortunate business dealings (incl. getting involved in racing) have a tendency to recoup their losses, and very few stay poor. It's only those who have started out poor and have been poor all their lives who regard that situation as "fate". Thus, it will be difficult to compile a list of drivers driven to poverty by racing.

#3 MartLgn

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 16:54

But are there also examples the other way round? That drivers lost all their belongings because of racing?


I was just readying a list of terrible drivers starting with S Buemi and working backwards when I read that the question was a financial one!

In Vol 1 of his B.R.M epic I recall that Doug Nye mentions that Peter Walker went from gentleman farmer to sleeping on the streets of London with his racing career in between.

#4 Amphicar

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 17:06

Nigel Mansell came pretty close to beggaring himself early on in his racing career. Having given up his job and sold most of his posessions to finance himself in Formula Ford, he next sold his house to finance a move into Formula 3, culminating in a huge crash, which left him with broken vertebrae in his back. He took part in a Lotus try-out stuffed with painkillers and was impressive enough to get the role of F1 test driver. The rest is history but it could easily have gone horribly wrong. Mansell was brave and single-minded - but the medal should go to his wife Rosanne for sticking by him through it all.

#5 D-Type

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 17:12

I was just readying a list of terrible drivers starting with S Buemi and working backwards when I read that the question was a financial one!

In Vol 1 of his B.R.M epic I recall that Doug Nye mentions that Peter Walker went from gentleman farmer to sleeping on the streets of London with his racing career in between.

See the thread on here titled Peter Walker. This suggests an alcohol-related problem rather than racing related.

#6 Formula Once

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 18:20

I dont think anyone lost anything 'because of racing' but only because of themselves. And in any case, the term poor in racing is pretty relative anyway :).

People like Chris Amon and Alain Prost, for example, lost considerable amounts of money once they started running their own teams, but I don't get the impression that they ever were poor let alone for long. Many drivers who started teams at whatever level find the business side of things hard anyway and very few make money out of it.

#7 ronmac

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 20:41

:wave: hi..Not really what you were looking for.. but i would like to mention avon hyde..who with his kiwi inginutity (maori cunning ) has probably done more motor racing in various forms than anybody that i.ve heard of..while providing a good living for his family..From his early beginnings in a little austin a 30..and a u.2 sports car ..went on to compete long distance production races and truck racing in n.z. and australia.. currently he is competing in his own built bugatti type racer based on an bmc austin..while putting to shame other drivers racing much more exotic machinery..i expect that he will be competing this coming weekend at the scope meeting at ruapuna christchurch..and i will be there to see it all happen..(ron )

#8 ronmac

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 20:45

:wave: hi..Not really what you were looking for.. but i would like to mention avon hyde..who with his kiwi inginutity (maori cunning ) has probably done more motor racing in various forms than anybody that i.ve heard of..while providing a good living for his family..From his early beginnings in a little austin a 30..and a u.2 sports car ..went on to compete long distance production races and truck racing in n.z. and australia.. currently he is competing in his own built bugatti type racer based on an bmc austin..while putting to shame other drivers racing much more exotic machinery..i expect that he will be competing this coming weekend at the scope meeting at ruapuna christchurch..and i will be there to see it all happen..(ron )

#9 HistoryFan

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 21:16

Nigel Mansell came pretty close to beggaring himself early on in his racing career. Having given up his job and sold most of his posessions to finance himself in Formula Ford, he next sold his house to finance a move into Formula 3, culminating in a huge crash, which left him with broken vertebrae in his back. He took part in a Lotus try-out stuffed with painkillers and was impressive enough to get the role of F1 test driver. The rest is history but it could easily have gone horribly wrong. Mansell was brave and single-minded - but the medal should go to his wife Rosanne for sticking by him through it all.


Yes such examples...
Perhaps there is someone with such going wrong.

#10 CarlRabbidge

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 22:05

The easiest way to make a small fortune from motor racing is to start with a big one and then just wait for it to happen

#11 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 22:10

too make a small fortune out of motorracing it helps to start with a large one!
Very few professional drivers really earn much money. F1 is the example, a few are paid large amounts but more are paying large amounts to be there. And it is the same in most branches of professional motorsport.
And so many semi proessionals are working too hard to raise the money to continue, often at the expense of doing what they are trying to do properly. eg not enough practice, car preparation etc.

#12 Amphicar

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 23:15

Yes such examples...
Perhaps there is someone with such going wrong.

Tommy Byrne, a “knacker from Dundalk” (Northern Ireland) is driver who comes close to what you have in mind. "The best driver you've never heard of" Byrne won 6 titles in 4 years and seemed to be on his way to F1 stardom but blew his chance and wasted his talent in pursuit of drink and drugs. He was given a try-out with McLaren and his lap times were stunning - but the phone call never came. It is likely he did not endear himself to Ron Dennis's rather uptight team by turning up to the test at Silverstone with a woman he had just chatted up, albeit he is at pains to point out that she was not a prostitute, “although she did look like one”. His autobiography is titled "Crashed & Byrned", which says it all. There was a good summary of Tommy Byrne's meteoric rise and even quicker fall in The Times: http://www.timesonli...icle4887934.ece

Perry McCarthy's story was less self-destructive and he was not such a natural talent - more of a grafter who didn't get the breaks and spent his money chasing the F1 dream. His autobiography is titled "Flat Out: Flat Broke", which neatly sums up his racing career. There is a good pen portrait of Perry McCarthy in this New York Times article: http://www.nyt.co.uk...ry-mccarthy.htm

#13 LittleChris

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 00:12

Not sure that Pel was as poor as the publicity for his book ( which I thoroughly enjoyed) implies. Didn't he and his dad do very well painting oil rigs in the early 80's to the point where McCarthy Sr was a millionaire ?

I always thought Kelvin Burt was similar to Tommy Byrne in that he had no money, talent to throw away but instead of drugs and drink, it seemed he just couldn't be arsed especially after the Jordan test at Silverstone where he went quicker IIRC than Barrichello and Irvine but got nothing out of it

#14 Quixotic

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 00:41

I think most racers would fall into this category. I raced Grand Prix Motorcycles from 1984 till I had to give that up after a huge crash at Wanneroo round of the 96 Aussie Titles. After that it was sidecars for a few years, and since 2003 I have raced cars.

Apart from the odd bit of financial help, (small sums), mot of the support that I received as been in the way of product supI have never mortgaged my house to keep racing I have always raced out of the contents of my back pocket. I know heaps of people, (dozens), who have let racing ruin them financially.

My wife recently did a rough calculation and worked out that since 1984 I have spent approximately $1 Million AUD on racing. All this did was make her angry, as she was working out in her head what things she could have bought with the money. of course she did not take into account that most of this was spent prior to me meeting her....

Even today, I don't have lots of money, I am not on a big wage, (I am an Army Sergeant), so I tailor my racing activities accordingly.

I never have the best race machines, equipment tyres, or anything else. Although I know I would be closer to the front if i spent more money. I don't have it..... so I don't spend it.

I have known people who throw huge amounts of money into racing, they have been so reckless in their approach to financing their racing that they have lost their houses and businesses all in a vain attempt to improve their performances on track.

Nikki Lauda famously got himself into a huge amount of debt. If he did not pick up the works drive when he did, he would have been bankrupt. I also know a young V8 Supercar racer whose parents spent around 3 Million dollars of their own money, (mostly borrowed) through Karting, Formula Ford, Aussie cars and paid drives in the Fujitsu series. fortunately he has the talent and has landed a contract that secured his future in the sport. But it was a close run thing. His father told me that if he did not succeed it would have cost them their house and their business.

So I am sure that racing has ruined many people. Like gambling, people get addicted and cannot stop I guess

Edited by Quixotic, 30 January 2011 - 09:07.


#15 Quixotic

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 00:43

too make a small fortune out of motorracing it helps to start with a large one!
Very few professional drivers really earn much money. F1 is the example, a few are paid large amounts but more are paying large amounts to be there. And it is the same in most branches of professional motorsport.
And so many semi proessionals are working too hard to raise the money to continue, often at the expense of doing what they are trying to do properly. eg not enough practice, car preparation etc.



Hear, Hear..... Myself included

#16 Quixotic

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 00:47

I once heard racing described as standing under a cold shower tearing up $100 bills

#17 Lemnpiper

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 03:31



Plus the odds are great the vast majority of us would never hear of a racer who just missed making it after spending themselves into fiscal ruin. On a local level maybe , but not on a nationwide or worldwide level.At least in the last 25 years.

But also racing history is full of former racers who ended up their lives in meager situations ( Ray Harroun or George Souders)where a case could be made maybe racing did hurt thier eventual fiscal health . Plus all the drivers that suffered career ending injuries that created medical bills far far in excess of what racing payed them ( Jan Opperman)that also ended their ability to earn a living in the workforce.I suspect there are far more instances of that fate than just spending your finanaces into nothingless.


Paul

#18 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:29

I once heard racing described as standing under a cold shower tearing up $100 bills

Thats the description of racing a pre war car in the rain, to be precise... :p

Ralf

#19 Gabrci

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:21

There is a Hungarian guy called Csaba Réz, who was a promising young man in the 1990's, racing in Germany, with a third place in Hockenheim as the highlight. He was always struggling with finances. After his own career had stalled, he started a team with his father in Formula König. With flat refusal from the Hungarian federation to help, the team only lasted two races. It was too much for Csaba, already suffering from drug problems, and he is currently in jail for alleged drug dealing with one or two years still to go. A really sad story of a young guy who gave his all, but it wasn't enough.

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#20 Amphicar

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:27

Thats the description of racing a pre war car in the rain, to be precise... :p

Ralf

I thought it was off-shore powerboat racing.

#21 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:41

It´s similar, only wetter... :D

#22 kayemod

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:31

I once heard racing described as standing under a cold shower tearing up $100 bills


No, I'm sure something along those lines has been said quite often, but the phrase was originally used by Sir Thomas Octave Murdoch (Tommy) Sopwith CBE, who was describing his unsuccessful quest to win The America's Cup, an offshore yachting trophy, with a line of magnificent J Class yachts named Endeavour. He said it some time back in the 1930s about tearing up £5 notes, though I suppose that's inflation for you. To inject a note of controversy, the Americans first captured that Trophy in 1851 by outrageous cheating, they sailed inside a buoy on the original course around the Isle of Wight, and they held onto it over many years by unsubtle and unfair rule manipulation, which most of the Rest of The World have always seen as a continuation of the cheating process that got them the trophy in the first place.

#23 wenoopy

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:49

No, I'm sure something along those lines has been said quite often, but the phrase was originally used by Sir Thomas Octave Murdoch (Tommy) Sopwith CBE, who was describing his unsuccessful quest to win The America's Cup, an offshore yachting trophy, with a line of magnificent J Class yachts named Endeavour. He said it some time back in the 1930s about tearing up £5 notes, though I suppose that's inflation for you. To inject a note of controversy, the Americans first captured that Trophy in 1851 by outrageous cheating, they sailed inside a buoy on the original course around the Isle of Wight, and they held onto it over many years by unsubtle and unfair rule manipulation, which most of the Rest of The World have always seen as a continuation of the cheating process that got them the trophy in the first place.


As a native of the first country to have successfully defended the Americas Cup after having relieved the USA of it, I wonder if there may be a dash of sour grapes in the above. However, this is in no way an endorsement of the farce which the competition(?) has since become.

#24 kayemod

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 11:05

As a native of the first country to have successfully defended the Americas Cup after having relieved the USA of it, I wonder if there may be a dash of sour grapes in the above. However, this is in no way an endorsement of the farce which the competition(?) has since become.


No sour grapes there I assure you, but be honest, America's Cup 'competition' has been pretty much a farce through out the event's entire history. The UK yachting fraternity cheered madly when the Royal Perth Yacht Club finally managed to prise that cup free from its US holder's grasp.

#25 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 11:30

Nikki Lauder famously got himself into a huge amount of debt. If he did not pick up the works drive when he did, he would have been bankrupt.


Another one for the "... the most misspelled name in racing history... " -thread ;-)

Bira springs to mind, but I guess he wasnt fortunate in many business affaires after he quit racing.


#26 D-Type

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 16:26

No, I'm sure something along those lines has been said quite often, but the phrase was originally used by Sir Thomas Octave Murdoch (Tommy) Sopwith CBE, who was describing his unsuccessful quest to win The America's Cup, an offshore yachting trophy, with a line of magnificent J Class yachts named Endeavour. He said it some time back in the 1930s about tearing up £5 notes, though I suppose that's inflation for you. To inject a note of controversy, the Americans first captured that Trophy in 1851 by outrageous cheating, they sailed inside a buoy on the original course around the Isle of Wight, and they held onto it over many years by unsubtle and unfair rule manipulation, which most of the Rest of The World have always seen as a continuation of the cheating process that got them the trophy in the first place.

To give this a motor sport connotation, let's not forget that Sir Thomas's son, who was also Tommy, was one of the main lights in Equipe Endeavour, entrant of some successful Jaguars and Aston Martins and that Briggs Cunningham successfully defended the America's Cup in 1958 (I think) against a British challenge with Sceptre.

Oh, and Bira also sailed for Thailand in the Olympics.

Edited by D-Type, 24 January 2011 - 16:27.


#27 HistoryFan

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 16:51

Tommy Byrne, a “knacker from Dundalk” (Northern Ireland) is driver who comes close to what you have in mind. "The best driver you've never heard of" Byrne won 6 titles in 4 years and seemed to be on his way to F1 stardom but blew his chance and wasted his talent in pursuit of drink and drugs. He was given a try-out with McLaren and his lap times were stunning - but the phone call never came. It is likely he did not endear himself to Ron Dennis's rather uptight team by turning up to the test at Silverstone with a woman he had just chatted up, albeit he is at pains to point out that she was not a prostitute, “although she did look like one”. His autobiography is titled "Crashed & Byrned", which says it all. There was a good summary of Tommy Byrne's meteoric rise and even quicker fall in The Times: http://www.timesonli...icle4887934.ece


A kind of modern James Hunt? :drunk:

#28 HistoryFan

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 16:55

Chris van der Garde almost is one example. After his crash last year, he get known that his management has not do an insurance for racing and so he had to pay for his own for his injuries. Mark Webber organised a kart race to help him.

#29 Cavalier53

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 19:18

Chris van der Garde almost is one example. After his crash last year, he get known that his management has not do an insurance for racing and so he had to pay for his own for his injuries. Mark Webber organised a kart race to help him.

History,

You are mixing up Guido van der Garde (Dutch) with Chris van der Drift (Australian) who crashed so horrificly at Brands Hatch last year! Not all "van"s are Dutch :).

Jan VAN der Graaf.

#30 HistoryFan

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 19:25

Oh sorry, I knew that it was Van der Drift. :blush:

#31 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 19:34

Not all "van"s are Dutch :).

Jan VAN der Graaf.


They used to be ;-)

#32 Amphicar

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 19:55

A kind of modern James Hunt? :drunk:

Not really - apart from the shared fondness for women, booze & drugs they were very different. Hunt was a public schoolboy who knew how and when to talk properly, who to talk to and (when necessary) how to behave. I don't think Hunt was anything like as naturally gifted a driver as TB but he was good enough and canny enough not blow his chance with McLaren.

#33 kayemod

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 21:02

I don't think Hunt was anything like as naturally gifted a driver as TB but he was good enough and canny enough not blow his chance with McLaren.


I think you're being a little unfair about Master James' talents there, maybe the application was sometimes lacking, but I've never heard much serious questioning of his driving skills. Indeed, many of us think that Tommy Byrne was similarly gifted, but you'd have to admit that evidence was a little thin on the ground at times.

Edited by kayemod, 24 January 2011 - 21:04.


#34 Quixotic

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 09:08

Another one for the "... the most misspelled name in racing history... " -thread ;-)

Bira springs to mind, but I guess he wasnt fortunate in many business affaires after he quit racing.



Sorry....Typo..... Fat fingers..... I meant Lauda.....

#35 Hieronymus

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 10:13

Not all "van"s are Dutch :).



If they pronounce the "van" as "fun", they are surely Dutch. If it is pronounced as the English word "van", they then are a different breed... :lol:

#36 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 10:25

Chris van der Garde almost is one example. After his crash last year, he get known that his management has not do an insurance for racing and so he had to pay for his own for his injuries. Mark Webber organised a kart race to help him.


I was amazed at the stupidity of that last year. No matter how small your budget is, you simply can't race a car that quick around a track like Brands Hatch without crash and/or medical insurance. The payoff for winning is next to nothing but the penalty if it goes wrong can be both financially and physically crippling.

#37 Giraffe

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 12:07

I was amazed at the stupidity of that last year. No matter how small your budget is, you simply can't race a car that quick around a track like Brands Hatch without crash and/or medical insurance. The payoff for winning is next to nothing but the penalty if it goes wrong can be both financially and physically crippling.


If you consider the number of drivers on the public highway without insurance where it is a legal requirement (I believe it is in the millions), then it should hardly come as a surprise that competition drivers for whom it is not compulsory do not have it. (I wonder what the actual figure is?)


#38 alansart

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 17:21

Chris van der Garde almost is one example. After his crash last year, he get known that his management has not do an insurance for racing and so he had to pay for his own for his injuries. Mark Webber organised a kart race to help him.


I seem to remember in a Motorsport Magazine interview with the late Paul Newman that Stephen South wasn't covered after his career ending Can Am accident. Newman immediately paid for his treatment.


#39 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 22:37

I once heard racing described as standing under a cold shower tearing up $100 bills

Thats Yatching, they make us look like Scrooge.

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#40 Giraffe

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 22:57

Thats Yatching, they make us look like Scrooge.


Ebenezer I am familiar with, but I'm really not quite sure how one Yatches?!?! :confused:

#41 wenoopy

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 07:43

History,

You are mixing up Guido van der Garde (Dutch) with Chris van der Drift (Australian) who crashed so horrificly at Brands Hatch last year! Not all "van"s are Dutch :).

Jan VAN der Graaf.


Slight Correction. Chris van der Drift is a New Zealander. I believe he is also entitled to Dutch citizenship.


#42 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 02:21

Ebenezer I am familiar with, but I'm really not quite sure how one Yatches?!?! :confused:

Yatching is tearing up $100 bills under the shower, those blokes make most motorsport people look miserly, like Scrooge.
F1 not withstanding

#43 wenoopy

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:55

Ebenezer I am familiar with, but I'm really not quite sure how one Yatches?!?! :confused:


Is it perhaps the response of a Yak to an itch?