73 replies to this topic

[Lutz G]

but I guess that, for me, ground-effects, and aerodynamic progress began the rot. Now I find the external shape of the cars too similar and, aesthetically, uninspiring.
On a bad day, I wonder if it's really all worthwhile. Good job that today I'm feeling cheerful.

My F1 addiction started back in 1977/78 - in the beginning of the ground effect era. So anybody remember the car presentation for 1979? So many Lotus 79 copies - the best one was the "Blue Lotus" 009 *g*

I'm not in love with today's cars and rules. I don't have the feeling to really miss something when I'm not watching GPs or car presentations. Back in the early 1990s I watched every single Quali Session on Eurosport (with superb Watson/Edwards commentary).

I really miss cars looking like this (Jordan 191 - shot from the http://www.prototyp-hamburg.de/ exhibition in Hamburg)



But this is "only" 20 years ago. Is this nostalgia? Michael Schumacher's debut car...

Lutz

Edited by Lutz G, 29 January 2011 - 14:34.

[IanDalziel]

I suppose you thought the supercharger was FIAT's way of getting round the restrictive 1923 engine regulations.

Superchargers work whether or not regulations apply - the F-duct was born directly out of the "no moveable aero" rule. If the FIAT supercharger had involved the driver cupping his hands over the air intake I might agree...

[David Lawson]

By coincidence, Damien Smith's editorial in the latest edition of MotorSport magazine (March) covers the very subject of this thread.

David

[ryan86]

I am probably a quarter of the age of some of you here, but even I can feel the excitement that I once felt being less. One is probably time mellowing me, the predictability of a new round of car launches, the same mid grid teams predicting championships in five years time. Also even in my now nearing 20 years watching the sport, these 3 or 4 tests where every team will be present, there was always an excitement about the first day in Interlagos/Melbourne, that that first session was the first time a lot of the big teams were on the same track, now we kinda know the order already.

Even the fact that they'll all have been tested and we'll have 20 reliable cars now, not the fact that they'd all start frying themselves on the first starting grid.

And like others have said, nothing really interestingly new. I actually don't have a great deal of interest in cars myself, more the competition aspect appealing to me, so unless it's something huge, the details go right over my head.

[Marticelli]

I think to a large extent it all hinges on the word nostalgia, after all, this is the nostalgia forum! My own personal interests lie in an era that finished long before I was born, but I still get pangs of nostalgia when something causes me to have a flashback to the days of youth. The smell of Castrol R immediately invokes memories of Charterhall as a kid with my Dad and Jimmy Stewart's D Type and Bob MacIntyre's Manx Norton... But I can't really afford a D Type any more nor a Manx although I did have a longstroke 7R AJS for a time.

Not to say I don't enjoy watching the current F1 circus (although I am rather bored with the current ringmaster who has run the show his way for far too long IMHO) but the dramas of last season made up for the lack of variety in the cars the way they used to look different to the naked eye. However its hard to imagine there will be historic racing of the current crop of F1 machinery unless the multimillionaires take a fancy for this 'sport' of sorts, as they are unaffordable now and likely to be more so in future.

That is the joy of the VSCC, where early machinery is run competitively by enthusiasts for enthusiasts, and as much fun can be had as in any branch of motorsport that I know of. As VSCC Edwardian competitor Richard Black put it to me when I bought his 1911 Targa Florio SCAT, its the best place to spectate a race with over twenty mighty racers on opposite lock round Gerrards, from the driving seat of one of them! I totally agree, having experienced it for myself.

Marticelli

[David M. Kane]

I tend to agree with SEdward, today's cars are WAY over speced. They are just expensive Formula Fords.

[DogEarred]

Everybody is quite right to be less than enthusiastic these days. It is down to our old friends the governing body and main promoter of F1. They have grown so much over the years they go to extremes to protect their interests. This leads to the present over regulation of technical & sporting rules (not just in F1). This in turn leads to the phenomena of diminishing returns for technical development. Although the level of engineering & technology is undoubtedly high, the average F1 design office is a place of mixed dynamics.
Whether or not a 'totally new' car is being developed, it is closely based on the existing vehicle or known technology. Hence, each year target percentage figures are issued for improvements to such as, weight distribution, C of G, chassis rigidity & of course, the all important aero figures. These figures are set by the 'Technical Director' or Chief Designer, usually optimistic & are rarely met. This leads to the various design teams sometimes scratching for improvements by miniscule amounts on the components they have been working on for years. Competent as they maybe, these people do not often have the chance to develop new ideas.
If some aspect of the car does have a significant redesign or a new 'idea' such as KERS is introduced, some small group has a year or two interesting work but then fall into the small yearly change routine. In the case of KERS, one team managed to expend some £6m before abandoning their own research and using that of another team. Such figures are illustrative of the sums of money spent to obtain the great number of tiny improvements that make a 'significant' overall performance improvement. Note 'money' - not to be confused with ideas.
Additionally,when a new car is launched, the other teams show off their lack of original thinking by looking at anything they have not thought of themselves (e.g. F-duct) & setting in motion design & aero studies to see if it helps them. Says a lot about their own abilities!
Therefore there are many of the teams of designers who have no real stimulus to their design intellect and just do a 9 to 5 job, albeit at a level most people could not achieve. They have little or no say in the overall design intent & are told what to do & put under pressure to achieve over-optimist planning dates. This in turn leads to a great deal of 'simmering disquiet' and messy work. Forget the idea of 'team spirit' - that exists more amongst mechanics & the actual race teams who actually get the job done.
There are those who are zealots but who rarely achieve anything significant or who move on before they are found out. Also, there are those of great ability who not given sufficient opportunity. It's an unfair business. (Note business & not sport)
Formula 1 companies are mainly hard nosed engineering businesses & only the press gives them an air of 'sporting glamour'.
The team principles kow-tow to it all & do not really have the will to change things despite all the good words we hear. They are not to be respected in my opinion.
Sorry for a bit of a ramble, but I really do not see things changing with the current system in place & you cannot turn back time anyway.

[Barry Boor]

Worst fears realised!

Virtually all the 2011 F.1 cars have now been announced..... well, at least the Lotus (one of them) is substantially different from last year's model.

[blackmme]

Worst fears realised!

Virtually all the 2011 F.1 cars have now been announced..... well, at least the Lotus (one of them) is substantially different from last year's model.

I think thats rather harsh actually, in fact this years launches have been really interesting. The cars look superficially similar but to be honest when have they not (fan car and P34 apart)?
There are some really intriguing solutions around. Renuaults forward exhausts being perhaps the most interesting and undoubtably featuring some very clever practical engineering.

Regards Mike

[john winfield]

I think thats rather harsh actually, in fact this years launches have been really interesting. The cars look superficially similar but to be honest when have they not (fan car and P34 apart)?
There are some really intriguing solutions around. Renuaults forward exhausts being perhaps the most interesting and undoubtably featuring some very clever practical engineering.

Regards Mike

Mike, I'm not sure I agree with your 'when have they not?' point! Take, for example, the period 1970 to 1974 and think of the Brabhams, the Ferraris, the Marches and the Tyrrells. To the naked eye of a non-technical enthusiast like me, there's quite a variety there. To me, for the reasons explained in posts above, the cars today look too similar, even if the racing can be quite good.

John

[blackmme]

Mike, I'm not sure I agree with your 'when have they not?' point! Take, for example, the period 1970 to 1974 and think of the Brabhams, the Ferraris, the Marches and the Tyrrells. To the naked eye of a non-technical enthusiast like me, there's quite a variety there. To me, for the reasons explained in posts above, the cars today look too similar, even if the racing can be quite good.

John

I know where your coming from John but actually if you compared say a 312T2 to a BT45b then the differences might have been visually more striking (inlet periscopes vs ducts in the cowling and radiator positioning) but certainly to a lay person they appeared actually pretty similar (well to a 7 year old). A Tyrrell 008 was certainly different to a lotus 79 but it was bloody close to a McLaren M26!
As was pointed out above 30 years ago we had the DFV to Turbo split but a Lotus 79 looked like a Tyrrell 009 looked like a Williams 007, in the same way that a RedBull RB6 looks like a Mercedes W02 looks like a Williams FW33 (probably a bit unfair to Williams there).

I honestly think there is a much wonderful engineering to admire today as there was back then, sure it's more constrained and subtler but it still the result of a lot of clever people innovating and producing some beautiful engineering.

PS. And just in case you think I'm some CFD loving weirdo as far as i'm concerned the pinnacle of F1 engineering was reached with the McLaren M23 and everything since is complete rot anyway

Regards Mike

[john winfield]

I know where your coming from John but actually if you compared say a 312T2 to a BT45b then the differences might have been visually more striking (inlet periscopes vs ducts in the cowling and radiator positioning) but certainly to a lay person they appeared actually pretty similar (well to a 7 year old). A Tyrrell 008 was certainly different to a lotus 79 but it was bloody close to a McLaren M26!
As was pointed out above 30 years ago we had the DFV to Turbo split but a Lotus 79 looked like a Tyrrell 009 looked like a Williams 007, in the same way that a RedBull RB6 looks like a Mercedes W02 looks like a Williams FW33 (probably a bit unfair to Williams there).

I honestly think there is a much wonderful engineering to admire today as there was back then, sure it's more constrained and subtler but it still the result of a lot of clever people innovating and producing some beautiful engineering.

PS. And just in case you think I'm some CFD loving weirdo as far as i'm concerned the pinnacle of F1 engineering was reached with the McLaren M23 and everything since is complete rot anyway

Regards Mike

Fair enough, Mike; I agree with much of what you say. My own post was badly worded, as the point that I was trying to make related to new cars, from each of those four manufacturers, during those five years. Thinking back to Barry's original post, I remember being genuinely surprised by some teams' new models. BT33...BT34...BT37....BT44 / the 1973 Ferraris, both Spazzaneve and the lumbering tank / Tyrrell 003...005...007 / March 701..711...721X...731. So much (visually evident) development in just a few years compared to the sophisticated fine tuning of today.

[Barry Boor]

Ooooh! I'm all excited now! I've just seen the Mercedes and it looks a little bit different from the others at the front. Whoopee!

[Stephen W]

Ooooh! I'm all excited now! I've just seen the Mercedes and it looks a little bit different from the others at the front. Whoopee!

"a little bit different"! It looks just like the rest!!!

[bradbury west]

"a little bit different"! It looks just like the rest!!!

Talking to Len Terry last year after the FoS and his triumphal reception and recognition with the Indy 38, he told me he had been watching a recent DVD of modern Eff One stuff. Len, as some of you may know, is colour blind, so as the designs are all much of a muchness, without any striking liveries , and in black and white, they really do all look more or less the same.
Roger Lund

[Macca]

The only thing I can see is that Mercedes have abandoned their funny airbox and one of the other teams has adopted it!

I last got excited about new F1 cars in 2000..........


Paul M

[werks prototype]

The McLaren looks up to the job!

[cpbell]

The McLaren looks up to the job!

It looks to be the most distinctive and interesting design since the Williams "Walrus" to me. Just when I too, was becoming jaded by the new cars looking all the same.

[RTH]

You are spot on Barry as always.

[werks prototype]

It looks to be the most distinctive and interesting design since the Williams "Walrus" to me. Just when I too, was becoming jaded by the new cars looking all the same.

Dare I say that there is, aesthetically, a faint suggestion of 'pannier' about those unusual McLaren side pods. When viewed from the front, at least.

Edited by werks prototype, 04 February 2011 - 13:43.

[cpbell]

Dare I say that there is, aesthetically, a faint suggestion of 'pannier' about those unusual side pods.

Would be a touch contrary to the current Technical Regulations, though! Plus, I wouldn't want to see the result of a hefty side impact...

[Barry Boor]

Well, at least it does look a bit different.

[ianselva]

The McLaren looks up to the job!

It was reputedly built by members of the public who won some competition. The front wing looks like a case of 'Too many cooks etc '

[werks prototype]

It was reputedly built by members of the public who won some competition. The front wing looks like a case of 'Too many cooks etc '

I think that at this stage, it is still last seasons front wing on the car.

That was certainly a very awkward and contrived, public 'construction' process.

Nevertheless, I do feel that McLaren have at least made a little effort, and turned up to the fancy dress party, with fancy dress as it were!

Edited by werks prototype, 04 February 2011 - 20:30.