33 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

We have a new F1 driver from Scotland. But were there some before 1950 in GP racing?
Any details and discussions about them?

[Mistron]

I don't really follow modern F1 beyond watching the odd race. Who is the new Scottish driver?

[Vitesse2]

Paul di Resta.

Not yer typical Scots name, but he's Dario Franchitti's cousin and won last year's DTM title. Realistically he's more Scottish than Dario Resta was English ;)

[Bloggsworth]

There are a lot of Italian-Scots in the Glasgow area, and not all in the ice-cream trade, and they seem to do well in the world. Sir Charles Forte and his empire, Nicola Benedetti is a top violinist, Daniella Nardini a top actress. It might be thought that they consisted of POWs who did not return to Italy after WW2, but a lot of Italians left their homeland in the 1890s in search of a better life, that that life could be found around Glasgow tells us just how bad their situation was, as Glasgow, though a hive of industry, particularly ship-building, was a hard town to live in, the rich were very rich, for the rest, destitution was the order of the day.

Archie Scott Moncrieff sounds pretty Scottish, was he a GP driver before 1950. Mind you "GP's" as they exist now didn't then, they were just races with big prizes as there was no World Championship.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 29 January 2011 - 13:15.

[HistoryFan]

I mean the Grand Prix class, the top class of racing before 1950. The first was in 1906, then there was an European championship in the 30s and so on.

[Mistron]

I'd recomend Graham Gauld's 'History of Scottish motor racing' regarding the history of scots in racing.

[Graham Gauld]

I mean the Grand Prix class, the top class of racing before 1950. The first was in 1906, then there was an European championship in the 30s and so on.

There was only one occasion, in 1912 but it needs a little explanation

In 1911 the Arrol-Johnston company in Glasgow entered three cars for the Coupe de LAuto held at Boulogne which a kind of Formula 2. Ironically one of the A-J drivers was Dario Resta !That year, 1911, the French Grand Prix did not have many entrants. As a result the Coupe de l'Auto entrants were combined with the French Grand Prix entrants for the 1912 event at Dieppe. Once more Arrol-Johnston entered three cars with two of them driven by Scots, Alex Crossman and James Reid so I suggest this was the only occasion prior to 1949 that any Scots competed in a Grand Prix. I say 1949 for that year David Murray of Ecurie Ecosse fame ran the ex Johnny Wakefield 4CL Maserati but I am not sure whether any race in which he competed that year held the title Grand Prix.

As a footnote to the above. As the Arrol-Johnstons were built in Scotland and as all cars in the event had to be painted in their national colours the Automobile Club of France hurriedly chose the colours blue and green to represent Scotland. They were surprised when the company painted their cars in Hunting Gordon tartan which just happened to be a mixture of blue and green !

[HistoryFan]

Thank you very much!

[Glengavel]

There are a lot of Italian-Scots in the Glasgow area, and not all in the ice-cream trade, and they seem to do well in the world. Sir Charles Forte and his empire, Nicola Benedetti is a top violinist, Daniella Nardini a top actress. It might be thought that they consisted of POWs who did not return to Italy after WW2, but a lot of Italians left their homeland in the 1890s in search of a better life, that that life could be found around Glasgow tells us just how bad their situation was, as Glasgow, though a hive of industry, particularly ship-building, was a hard town to live in, the rich were very rich, for the rest, destitution was the order of the day.

Archie Scott Moncrieff sounds pretty Scottish, was he a GP driver before 1950. Mind you "GP's" as they exist now didn't then, they were just races with big prizes as there was no World Championship.

Lewis Hamilton sounds pretty Scottish as well...

You're being a bit hard on Glasgow. A lot of poverty, yes, but the alternative to riches wasn't necessarily destitution. As Billy Connolly once said, people look back and say "oh, the deprivation!", but back then it was just the way of life.

A lot of the Italian community pre-dated the war; they were often treated with suspicion and interned for for the duration. We were in Italy a few years ago and visited Barga and were bemused to see saltires hanging everywhere, and an exhibition by Scottish artist John Bellamy. Turns out Barga has strong links with the Scots-Italian community.

[Graham Gauld]

There are a lot of Italian-Scots in the Glasgow area, and not all in the ice-cream trade, and they seem to do well in the world. Sir Charles Forte and his empire, Nicola Benedetti is a top violinist, Daniella Nardini a top actress. It might be thought that they consisted of POWs who did not return to Italy after WW2, but a lot of Italians left their homeland in the 1890s in search of a better life, that that life could be found around Glasgow tells us just how bad their situation was, as Glasgow, though a hive of industry, particularly ship-building, was a hard town to live in, the rich were very rich, for the rest, destitution was the order of the day.

Archie Scott Moncrieff sounds pretty Scottish, was he a GP driver before 1950. Mind you "GP's" as they exist now didn't then, they were just races with big prizes as there was no World Championship.

There was Archie Scott Brown but that was in the 1950s and David Scott Moncrief who, if anyone else reading this knew him, was about a thousand miles away from being a grand prix driver.

[Bloggsworth]

There was Archie Scott Brown but that was in the 1950s and David Scott Moncrief who, if anyone else reading this knew him, was about a thousand miles away from being a grand prix driver.

I'm rubbish with names as anyone who reads this forum can attest.

I didn't say Scott Moncrieff was any good, that wasn't the question - Bernie Ecclestone entered a Grand Prix, and so have many others.

[David McKinney]

Bernie Ecclestone entered a Grand Prix

Prove it

[s2driver]

Prove it

Monaco 1958. Connaught-Alta - check the entry list in FORIX or even Wikipedia!

[Bloggsworth]

Monaco 1958. Connaught-Alta - check the entry list in FORIX or even Wikipedia!

Saved me the bother - Thanks.

[Tim Murray]

If you read these two earlier threads you will see that there has to be considerable doubt that Bernie was actually entered for Monaco 1958:

Ecclestone & the Monaco 1958 non-qualifiers (merged)

Bernie's Connaughts

[Bloggsworth]

Entered was the word, not qualified or even participated, entered. I could have entered a GP as I held a full FIA International licence, but that doesn't even mean I needed to turn up - It seems that some things need explaining in simple terms. I said that Scott Moncrieff sounded pretty Scottish and asked if he had entered a GP; the answer to which question was a) Yes, b) No, or c) I don't know; but what I got was a critique of his driving ability.

I pointed out that driving ability had nothing to do with entering a GP and mentioned Ecclestone; and then got told to Prove it. As far as I'm concerned, if a driver appears on the official Entry List then he has entered; this does not mean that he competed, or even turned up, merely that he expressed an intention and that intention was carried through as far as the entry list - If I booked a seat at The Royal Opera, paid for it, but come the day didn't turn up to use the seat, the seating plan would reflect the fact that there was an intent to enter the auditorium; it's a fairly simple concept to understand.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 31 January 2011 - 00:11.

[Tim Murray]

As far as I'm concerned, if a driver appears on the official Entry List then he has entered; this does not mean that he competed, or even turned up, merely that he expressed an intention and that intention was carried through as far as the entry list

This is the whole point. If you, or anyone, can show that Bernie was on the official entry list, this conundrum would be resolved.

[David McKinney]

Thanks Tim, for underlining my point

I'm not getting at you personally, Mr Bloggsworth. We've all seen the reports, but I've seen nothing older than about 20 years.

I'm not questioning the fact that he drove the car in practice, but would dearly like to know, from 1958 sources, whether he did indeed formally enter as a driver. In those days it was not uncommon for a non-entered driver to take a car out for a couple of laps in practice and I still believe that's what Bernie did

Edited by David McKinney, 31 January 2011 - 07:32.

[ensign14]

According to the Watkins biog, he had Kessler there to drive, but decided to have a go instead of Kessler. Which would imply (a) he was not entered and (b) perhaps some - all? - of the Kessler times should be allocated to Bernie. Or maybe ©, he got it wrong.

[D-Type]

This isn't really the thread to be discussing this, but rather than resuscitate one of the others , consider this:
Stirling Moss was definitely not entered to drive a Scarab at Monaco in 1960. He definitely drove a Scarab in practice as he was asked to do so by Reventlow [Sp?]. I believe he was officially timed. If the websites quoted also list this combination then they are getting their definitions wrong and what they say about BCE is suspect.


Edit: Typos

Edited by D-Type, 31 January 2011 - 11:29.

[Tim Murray]

The same goes for Graham Hill when he did some laps in a works Brabham BT26 while waiting for his Lotus to turn up, during Thursday morning practice for the 1969 British GP at Silverstone.

[David McKinney]

And there must be loads of other examples, especially the further back you go

[HistoryFan]

Alex Crossman and James Reid

There is less to find about that two drivers. So perhaps you have some details?

[Vitesse2]

Reid drove a Beeston-Humber in the 1907 and 1908 TTs:

http://forums.autosp...showtopic=70086

http://forums.autosp...showtopic=84181

[Doug Nye]

This is the whole point. If you, or anyone, can show that Bernie was on the official entry list, this conundrum would be resolved.

Not conclusive, because this does not necessarily reflect the formal entry documentation received by the AC de Monaco, but here is the 1958 Monaco GP entry listing as published in their programme for that race meeting - plus their practice time sheets from two sessions. You will notice there is no 'Ecclestone' mentioned anywhere - either as an 'entry', nor as an 'entrant', nor as having been officially timed in the two practice sessions for which we hold the contemporary official print-outs.









Scans by The GP Library

DCN

[David McKinney]

Thank you so much, Doug

For me at least, that sews it up. Bernie Ecclestone was not an official participant in proceedings, apart from - presumably - as "entrant" of the two Connaughts

And, yes, we know he had a couple of laps in practice, but Fred Bloggs might have as well - here or somewhere else

I wonder where the quoted Ecclestone lap-times come from?

Also interesting to see confirmation that - again in spite of published reports - Ken Kavanagh's name does not appear anywhere

[Doug Nye]

I haven't checked to see if there was a third practice session other than the ones for which we have the contemporary published bulletins reproduced above.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 06 February 2011 - 21:28.

[Gabrci]

Thank you so much, Doug

Also interesting to see confirmation that - again in spite of published reports - Ken Kavanagh's name does not appear anywhere

Yes, thank you Doug, fantastic documents.

I think it was fairly straightforward from the letter Mr. Kavanagh wrote to me (even if he got the Argentine races wrong), but it is indeed good to see confirmation.

[David McKinney]

Even though I've seen that letter, GG, I always wondered if Kavanagh's memory might have failed him

Now any doubt is removed

[Bloggsworth]

Good to see so many Scotsmen in the field... Write out 100 times, I must always put the word allegedly into every post lest someone knows different...

[PCC]

I became suspicious when I noticed the entry of #22, identified simply as "X"... could it be BCE, canny as ever, covering his tracks? Then I noticed #22 on the timesheets, identified as Flockhart in the Cooper - and then as Moss, in (unless I am very much mistaken), a "Dooper". Is this the one-off appearance of that rarest of GP beats, the Cooper Dooper? And some claimed it was only a myth....

[David McKinney]

I haven't checked to see if there was a third practice session other than the ones for which we have the contemporary published bulletins reproduced above.

DCN

The first question I asked myself was if there was a third session, but the grid seems to accord with the combined S1 and S2 times

[Alan Cox]

Although not an unimpeachable source, Yves Naquin's 'Le Grand Prix Automobile de Monaco 1929-1960' records only two practice sessions (one on Friday and one on Saturday) and also has a photo of the Walker Cooper no 22 in practice, being driven by Flockhart.

[David McKinney]

Motor (21/05/58) mentions three sessions. It makes specific reference to Moss being able to manage only 1’42.4 over the first two sessions (as above) but improving after swapping engines for the final session.
It gives the final times as follows (with some times marginally slower than those reproduced above)
Brooks 1’39.8
Behra 1’40.8
Brabham 1’41.0
Salvadori 1’41.0
Trintignant 1’41.1
Hawthorn 1’41.5
Lewis-Evans 1’41.8
Moss 1’42.3
Collins 1’42.4
Musso 1’42.6
von Trips 1’43.7
Schell 1’43.8
Allison 1’44.6
Scarlatti 1’44.7
Hill 1’45.0
Bonnier 1'45.0
DNQ
Flockhart 1’45.9
Godia 1’46.0
Emery 1’47.7
Taramazzo 1’49.0
de Filippis1’49.8
Gerini 1’49.8
Kessler 1’50.5
Testut 1’52.4
Cabianca 1’52.0
Piotti 1’52.4
Gould 1’54.0
DNA
Campbell

No mention anywhere of Ecclestone (or Kavanagh)

Edited by David McKinney, 08 February 2011 - 13:35.