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The ultimate Hamilton v Alonso thread [merged]


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#1 robefc

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 14:32

Following a suggestion from the Alonso thread I've gone and done it :)

It's clear that

a) People just want to keep talking about 2007 (including myself)
b) Other topics get continually derailed as a consequence of above

So I see this thread as an opportunity to go round and round in circles both about 2007 and their rivalry generally in a safe environment that others can easily avoid.

In addition mods can now remove 2007 references from other threads and dump them in here.

Hey it might work, it might not but it seemed a reasonable idea...

As a starter I recommend anyone who wants an insight into 2007 reads mark hughes's book on lewis...unfortunately for non lewis fans it's lewis centric and follows him from karting upwards...but it is illuminating.

As a second starter I'd say on the one hand lewis, alonso and macca were all to blame...on the other it was simply an impossible situation, a combination of ingredients that are all harmless by themselves but potentially explosive when mixed...

Edited by robefc, 06 February 2011 - 14:33.


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#2 undersquare

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 14:35

McLaren lost the 2007 wdc with strategy mistakes in China and Brazil.

:)

#3 robefc

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 14:37

McLaren lost the 2007 wdc with strategy mistakes in China and Brazil.

:)


Strategy in brazil? Surely the gearbox glitch is the overriding issue in that race? Although reliability was bullet proof the rest of the season so in the context of the season it can't be pinned on that.

Personally the team's mistake in china was the biggest contributor...arghghghghghg, that still annoys me sooo much!

#4 LeonKennedy

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 14:37

Finally we will have some clean Alonso, Hamilton, Massa vs Alonso threads and have all 2007 pollution in the same thread... about time!

#5 robefc

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 14:41

Finally we will have some clean Alonso, Hamilton, Massa vs Alonso threads and have all 2007 pollution in the same thread... about time!


That's the hope!

#6 Brandz07

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 14:42

Finally we will have some clean Alonso, Hamilton, Massa vs Alonso threads and have all 2007 pollution in the same thread... about time!


'about time'

says the person with 6 posts :rotfl:

but yeah i do agree with you :)

Edited by Brandz07, 06 February 2011 - 14:42.


#7 hulmerist

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 14:46

'about time'

says the person with 6 posts :rotfl:

but yeah i do agree with you :)


i wasn't aware people couldn't read the board without registering

#8 showtime

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 14:50

Ultimate thread failure

#9 robefc

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 14:52

Ultimate thread failure


It's nice that you try and create a thread that you think will help the board and for a reason you think a significant number of posters will agree with and you end up with such useful contributions.



#10 ViMaMo

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 14:52

This thread needs to be moved into "Important Topics" Section.

#11 Brandz07

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 14:53

i wasn't aware people couldn't read the board without registering


i know but i found it ironic :p

#12 LeonKennedy

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 14:56

Anyone else agrees with me that if McLaren gave equalty to both drivers in 2007 Alonso would have been there in 2008 and now McLaren would have 1xWDC more and Alonso would be 4xWDC?

Edit: and would have probably won 2008's constructor...

Edited by LeonKennedy, 06 February 2011 - 14:58.


#13 marcoferrari

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 14:58

Anyone else agrees with me that if McLaren gave equalty to both drivers in 2007 Alonso would have been there in 2008 and now McLaren would have 2xWDC more and Alonso would be 4xWDC?


The equality was there in the first half of 2007, but Alonso wasn t able to use it to his favour... Lewis was extremely consistent for a rookie (9 podiums in a row?) and he even didn t need special help from the team to lead the standings... ;)

Edited by marcoferrari, 06 February 2011 - 14:59.


#14 P123

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 14:59

Anyone else agrees with me that if McLaren gave equalty to both drivers in 2007 Alonso would have been there in 2008 and now McLaren would have 1xWDC more and Alonso would be 4xWDC?


I think you mean to say if they had favoured Alonso, etc, etc. Of course if they had favoured Hamilton they also would have had 1 more WDC.

#15 robefc

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:01

Anyone else agrees with me that if McLaren gave equalty to both drivers in 2007 Alonso would have been there in 2008 and now McLaren would have 2xWDC more and Alonso would be 4xWDC?


No because the whole thing blew up precisely because they tried to give equality to both drivers...both of them were paranoid about that though.

Lewis because he suspected that his 2 x WDC teammate who was brought in to win the championship was getting preferential treatment, particularly after what happened in monaco. Regardless of whether or not there was any preferential treatment for alonso there you can see how it might appear there was to lewis when he just got out of the car.

Alonso because he was blindsided by lewis's pace so there had to be some reason why lewis could match/beat him. If you consider the completely unexpected nature of this challenge for alonso and then consider that lewis had been with the team since 13 and they were naturally really happy when he did well then you can also see why it might appear to fred that there was bias for lewis.

But your assertion quite frankly is out of the 'macca screwed alonso over' book and that book is a work of fiction ;-)

#16 P123

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:01

Strategy in brazil? Surely the gearbox glitch is the overriding issue in that race? Although reliability was bullet proof the rest of the season so in the context of the season it can't be pinned on that.

Personally the team's mistake in china was the biggest contributor...arghghghghghg, that still annoys me sooo much!


They put him on to a three stopper after the gearbox issue.

#17 LeonKennedy

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:03

The equality was there in the first half of 2007, but Alonso wasn t able to use it to his favour... Lewis was extremely consistent for a rookie (9 podiums in a row?) and he even didn t need special help from the team to lead the standings...;)



I think you mean to say if they had favoured Alonso, etc, etc. Of course if they had favoured Hamilton they also would have had 1 more WDC.



No because the whole thing blew up precisely because they tried to give equality to both drivers...both of them were paranoid about that though.

Lewis because he suspected that his 2 x WDC teammate who was brought in to win the championship was getting preferential treatment, particularly after what happened in monaco. Regardless of whether or not there was any preferential treatment for alonso there you can see how it might appear there was to lewis when he just got out of the car.

Alonso because he was blindsided by lewis's pace so there had to be some reason why lewis could match/beat him. If you consider the completely unexpected nature of this challenge for alonso and then consider that lewis had been with the team since 13 and they were naturally really happy when he did well then you can also see why it might appear to fred that there was bias for lewis.

But your assertion quite frankly is out of the 'macca screwed alonso over' book and that book is a work of fiction ;-)


Apparently my strategic post to get this thread started worked lol

+1 for me :clap:


#18 robefc

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:03

The equality was there in the first half of 2007, but Alonso wasn t able to use it to his favour... Lewis was extremely consistent for a rookie (9 podiums in a row?) and he even didn t need special help from the team to lead the standings...;)


Allowing alonso an extra go in Q2 in Malaysia, I think it was, in order to be able to beat lewis's time and therefore get preferential strategy for Q3 and cowtowing to alonso's demand that lewis shouldn't be able to test (I forget when the test was, presumably just before start of the european season) actually point towards there not being complete equality at the start of the season.

#19 robefc

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:04

They put him on to a three stopper after the gearbox issue.


Yeah but

a) we don't know he'd have made it with a 2 stopper; and

b) the gearbox issue had a much more negative effect on the race than that decision.

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#20 robefc

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:05

Apparently my strategic post to get this thread started worked lol

+1 for me :clap:


hehe

but pretty reasonable responses rather than fanboy responses I'd say, which I daresay might be a bit of a disappointment?!

#21 Fontainebleau

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:06

Following a suggestion from the Alonso thread I've gone and done it :)

You are far braver than me! :) Well done, Robefc, I do hope it works.

#22 hulmerist

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:06

i know but i found it ironic :p


do you know what irony is?

#23 Atreiu

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:16

rookie vs seasoned veteran
/thread

:)

#24 ForzaGTR

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:16

Alonso lost to a rookie in 2007. Hamilton finished higher in the standings. Ask any racer, it doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning.

Hamilton beat Alonso in the same car in 2007. End of argument.

#25 showtime

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:18

It's nice that you try and create a thread that you think will help the board and for a reason you think a significant number of posters will agree with and you end up with such useful contributions.


We'll see how it ends then and if it keeps other threads clean from the 2007 BS.

#26 undersquare

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:19

Strategy in brazil? Surely the gearbox glitch is the overriding issue in that race? Although reliability was bullet proof the rest of the season so in the context of the season it can't be pinned on that.


Well after the gearbox glitch Lewis was making up places then at the first pitstop they put him on Options, but they were the supersofts and the track wasn't ready for them (they were an iffy choice by Bridgestone anyway). When the team looked at the Primes they're taken off they saw they were knackered and realised the SS weren't going to last. So that made it a short 2nd stint and he couldn't do half the race on one more set of primes so that made it a 3-stopper.

Added to that they'd gone too aggressive on the cooling package so it started overheating and he couldn't keep charging.

#27 Diablobb81

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:20

bla bla bla 2007 bla bla bla :rotfl:

#28 robefc

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:23

Alonso lost to a rookie in 2007. Hamilton finished higher in the standings. Ask any racer, it doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning.

Hamilton beat Alonso in the same car in 2007. End of argument.


I don't think whether or not lewis officially beat alonso in the WDC standings is really the 'argument' or subject at hand is it?
That's indisputable.


#29 Fontainebleau

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:24

We'll see how it ends then and if it keeps other threads clean from the 2007 BS.

May I ask that we all actually try to make it work? Look, nobody says there might not be a better solution, but at least it is a new approach and will save those of us who participate in the discussion from explaining our arguments again and again. :)

#30 LeonKennedy

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:28

bla bla bla 2007 bla bla bla :rotfl:

Please, there was a lot of people who complaining because a lot of threads were polluted because of the 2007 talk, now that there is a topic for it, don't do that. :up:

#31 Afterburner

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:29

In my opinion, the situation is exactly as it reads in the record books: Hamilton second, Alonso third. In fifty years, nobody's going to care why--that's just the way it ended, and that's the way it'll be read years from now.

#32 gaston_foix

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:30

Anyone else agrees with me that if McLaren gave equalty to both drivers in 2007 Alonso would have been there in 2008 and now McLaren would have 1xWDC more and Alonso would be 4xWDC?

Edit: and would have probably won 2008's constructor...

All parties are of guilt.

#33 robefc

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:31

You are far braver than me! :) Well done, Robefc, I do hope it works.


May I ask that we all actually try to make it work? Look, nobody says there might not be a better solution, but at least it is a new approach and will save those of us who participate in the discussion from explaining our arguments again and again. :)



Please, there was a lot of people who complaining because a lot of threads were polluted because of the 2007 talk, now that there is a topic for it, don't do that. :up:


Cheers guys

So much easier to criticise than to actually do things...bit melodramatic in respect of a forum thread but occurs to me it's true and most people do far more of the latter than the former.


#34 robefc

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:33

In my opinion, the situation is exactly as it reads in the record books: Hamilton second, Alonso third. In fifty years, nobody's going to care why--that's just the way it ended, and that's the way it'll be read years from now.


I think you're wrong, in 50 year's time this thread will be the longest thread in forum history and will require it's own website...sod that it's own separate internet...ot host it.

But the arguments will not have moved on! :p

#35 monolulu

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:33

Following a suggestion from the Alonso thread I've gone and done it
Well done Bob! Whoops Rob  ;)


#36 speng

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 15:55

Anyone else agrees with me that if McLaren gave equalty to both drivers in 2007 Alonso would have been there in 2008 and now McLaren would have 1xWDC more and Alonso would be 4xWDC?

Edit: and would have probably won 2008's constructor...

No, Alonso had the better strategy up Monaco and once they were on equal footing Hamilton started winning and Alonso lost his cool.

#37 Fontainebleau

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:03

No, Alonso had the better strategy up Monaco and once they were on equal footing Hamilton started winning and Alonso lost his cool.

I cannot disagree more with your views; please check the following info from BBC (hardly Alonso-biased, are they?)
http://www.bbc.co.uk...in_reargua.html
"As a McLaren insider revealed to me: "Fernando won in Monaco fair and square in 2007.

"Lewis was generally quicker through the weekend, but in qualifying Fernando did it and Lewis didn't. Lewis was quicker in the first run but then he made mistakes and Fernando got pole.

"Fernando won the race because he pulled an 11-second gap in the first stint when Lewis had (tyre) graining and after that Fernando was just cruising because we had rear brake issues.

"But after the race, Ron said to Fernando: 'Be nice to Lewis because we had to (pit) stop him early.' And Fernando said: 'What do you mean? I was just cruising.'

"He got very annoyed about that because it was like Ron saying we handed you the victory. Even after that, the relationship was unrecoverable."

Also, please check how many extra-qualy laps Alonso got, versus how many Hamilton got.

Robefc is very right when he says that there were no innocent parties in this matter. In terms of internal problems it wasn't Alonso who got the ball rolling with the press (who knows what happened internally...), but he could have handled the whole thing better. I think that the lack of "emotional intelligence" in all parties involved was astonishing, as Robefc has already pointed out.

#38 Fontainebleau

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:06

:D

Now in all fairness, whose fan is the thread creator and whose fans contributed the majority of posts (and 90 percent of the on-topic talk) so far?

At least that removes any doubts which side still want's to talk, doesn't it? ;)

as65p, I do take part of the blame - please check my exchange with Robefc and LeonKennedy in the Alonso thread -, and nobody can doubt who I am siding with :)

#39 undersquare

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:10

I cannot disagree more with your views; please check the following info from BBC (hardly Alonso-biased, are they?)
http://www.bbc.co.uk...in_reargua.html
"As a McLaren insider revealed to me: "Fernando won in Monaco fair and square in 2007.

"Lewis was generally quicker through the weekend, but in qualifying Fernando did it and Lewis didn't. Lewis was quicker in the first run but then he made mistakes and Fernando got pole.


We all saw Lewis get badly held up by Webbo in his final Q lap, nothing to do with 'mistakes' so I wouldn't trust Benson at all in this story.

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#40 OwenC93

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:14

I think it's pretty clear they were both very equal in 2007, it doesn't matter which came out on top by the tiniest margin, that's just luck.

As for 2011, I think Hamilton has improved massively, Alonso also no doubt, but it's hard to notice with him.

#41 Fontainebleau

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:15

We all saw Lewis get badly held up by Webbo in his final Q lap, nothing to do with 'mistakes' so I wouldn't trust Benson at all in this story.

Would you trust Dennis?  ;)
"Dennis replied: "I am not perfect. The British press jumped on me, attacked me.

"It was difficult. I had to think about what was best for the team. What was put about in the media did affect our relationship. But we are trying to improve that.

"He (Alonso) absolutely deserved to win in Monaco. He drove one of the best races that I have even seen."

#42 salamin

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:15

I think it's pretty clear they were both very equal in 2007, it doesn't matter which came out on top by the tiniest margin, that's just luck.

As for 2011, I think Hamilton has improved massively, Alonso also no doubt, but it's hard to notice with him.


agreed, still hamilton was a rookie in his 1st season

#43 gaston_foix

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:16

I wonder how much time will take to this thread to be closed.

#44 speng

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:17

I cannot disagree more with your views; please check the following info from BBC (hardly Alonso-biased, are they?)
http://www.bbc.co.uk...in_reargua.html
"As a McLaren insider revealed to me: "Fernando won in Monaco fair and square in 2007.

"Lewis was generally quicker through the weekend, but in qualifying Fernando did it and Lewis didn't. Lewis was quicker in the first run but then he made mistakes and Fernando got pole.

"Fernando won the race because he pulled an 11-second gap in the first stint when Lewis had (tyre) graining and after that Fernando was just cruising because we had rear brake issues.

"But after the race, Ron said to Fernando: 'Be nice to Lewis because we had to (pit) stop him early.' And Fernando said: 'What do you mean? I was just cruising.'

"He got very annoyed about that because it was like Ron saying we handed you the victory. Even after that, the relationship was unrecoverable."

Also, please check how many extra-qualy laps Alonso got, versus how many Hamilton got.

Robefc is very right when he says that there were no innocent parties in this matter. In terms of internal problems it wasn't Alonso who got the ball rolling with the press (who knows what happened internally...), but he could have handled the whole thing better. I think that the lack of "emotional intelligence" in all parties involved was astonishing, as Robefc has already pointed out.

I am not commenting on Alonso 2007 Monaco win. If I was not clear my response has more to do Alonso being a 4xWDC by 2008

#45 undersquare

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:24

Would you trust Dennis? ;)
"Dennis replied: "I am not perfect. The British press jumped on me, attacked me.

"It was difficult. I had to think about what was best for the team. What was put about in the media did affect our relationship. But we are trying to improve that.

"He (Alonso) absolutely deserved to win in Monaco. He drove one of the best races that I have even seen."


Fernando may well have deserved the Monaco win, given he had pole. And as a separate issue Lewis was quite right to be annoyed at not being allowed to execute his strategy in the race, even though the gap looked too big.

But it's ridiculous to cite Monaco as justification for Alonso turning against his team, the public rudeness and the rest of it. He was behind in the championship after mistakes in Bahrain and Spain, that was his problem.


#46 Fontainebleau

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:25

I don't think whether or not lewis officially beat alonso in the WDC standings is really the 'argument' or subject at hand is it?
That's indisputable.

Indeed - and the following quote may come up as a shock for many people, it is an interview with Alonso in a Spanish newspaper, dated 6-10-2007:

http://www.20minutos.../declaraciones/

¿Crees que tu compañero merece el título a pesar de todo lo sucedido?

"Creo que sí, que se lo merece si lo gana al final. Hay que ser realistas en eso y totalmente deportivos. Creo que hay que saber ganar, saber perder, y este año si no se gana es porque alguien ha sumado más puntos que tú, y si alguien suma más puntos que tú es porque ha hecho mejor trabajo. Y más teniendo 12 puntos de ventaja ahora al final quiere decir que hasta ahora le ha salido mejor. Si es por menos abandonos, por más o menos decisiones, por lo que sea, tiene más puntos que tú y se lo merece".

Do you think your teammate deserves the title despite everything that went on?

I think so, he deserves it if he finally wins it. We have to be realistic and good sports about that. I think that you need to know how to win and how to lose, and if there is no win this year it will be because at the end of the season somebody has more points than oneself because he did a better job. And even more having a 12-point advantage now at the end it means that until now it turned up better for him. Whether it is because he had more or less DNFs, more or less decisions (sic), whatever the reason, he has more points than you do and he deserves it."

#47 Fontainebleau

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:27

Fernando may well have deserved the Monaco win, given he had pole. And as a separate issue Lewis was quite right to be annoyed at not being allowed to execute his strategy in the race, even though the gap looked too big.

But it's ridiculous to cite Monaco as justification for Alonso turning against his team, the public rudeness and the rest of it. He was behind in the championship after mistakes in Bahrain and Spain, that was his problem.

The point is that the public rudeness was not started by Alonso. :)

#48 undersquare

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:29

The point is that the public rudeness was not started by Alonso. :)


Eh??? Link please

#49 BillBald

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:32

do you know what irony is?


People talking about irony when they don't know what it is?



#50 Fontainebleau

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 16:36

Eh??? Link please

Well, if we accept that McLaren played it fair in Monaco, and that there was no strategy to hold Hamilton back so that Alonso could win but a fair handling of the situation, how do you define Hamilton's tirade in front of the British press? The same press that, according to Dennis, put him in an impossible situation and damaged the team atmosphere?

If it helps, I did think at the time that Hamilton had not been aware of what he was doing when he started complaining to the press, so I did not put all the blame on him.