191 replies to this topic

[Alpine a442]

Hello Everybody,

I have long been intrigued as to why some racing cars appear to have been designed with little regard for driver safety compared to others at the time, i know safety wasnt much regarded until the days of full height roll hoops so i am talking about the more modern stuff for example where drivers appear sat in the nose leaving legs very much exposed in the event of impact! I have also heard of drivers literally risking their backsides sitting on 1.5 mm ally floor in an attempt to get as low as possible!

Thought it might make for an interesting photo topic anyway!

Heres some to get started:

[kayemod]

I agree, some of the cars I see at Goodwood each year give me cold shivers, especially those old turbo F1s with the driver's feet in front of the axle line, though without any kind of deformable structure, which cars didn't have back then, it wouldn't have made any difference in a frontal impact if the poor occupant's feet were a foot or more further back, it's properly designed composite structures that have made present day racing relatively safe.

[elansprint72]

917 is top of my list.

[kayemod]

917 is top of my list.

You're right there, the tube frames of early 917s look positively flimsy, small wonder they flexed as much as they did.

[BenM]

The tubes on the 917s were filled with pressurised gas weren't they?

[JockinSA]

You're right there, the tube frames of early 917s look positively flimsy, small wonder they flexed as much as they did.

The original 917 spaceframes were pressurised with nitrogen and there was a pressure guage in the cockpit to tell the driver if the frame had cracked. I assume that Porsche eventually rectified this as the car was of course rather quick to be continually wondering if the thing was going to fall apart around you.

Also one of the reasons that Aluminium Rollcages in saloon cars were eventually banned, after a number of drivers were found to be sitting in a pile of tubes after an accident. We had a case here in SA with a rollcage, the builder of the car had made it out of plastic drain pipe, and disguised it. Most put out when he was told by the scrutineers that it was not acceptable. Another one that I checked last year, in a Trans Am type vehicle was the safety harnesses secured to the chassis with M6 set screws into the aluminium floor skin. He could not see anything wrong with this!!

[Nordic]

There was a gauge that indicated when the pressure dropped. that gave the gave a driver the clue is frame was cracked.

Given the amount of races that the 917 took part in the drivers mainly emerged unscathed for a car with such a reputation.

[Mistron]

was it not the 908/2 which had the drivers feet the furthest forward? I thought the 917 had the pedals behind the front axle line?

Brian Redman was told that 'if the guage zeros, the chassis was cracked so drive the car carefully back to the pits', to which he relpied, "if that guage goes to zero, I'll park the car and walk back"

[BenM]

Some of the 80's F1 cars look like they seat the driver particularly far forward...
Like this Alfa..
http://www.hallandha...meo-F1/2085.htm

[Peter Darley]

There was a gauge that indicated when the pressure dropped. that gave the gave a driver the clue is frame was cracked.

Given the amount of races that the 917 took part in the drivers mainly emerged unscathed for a car with such a reputation.

Three quotes from the late Frank Gardner:

"I think the reason they bestowed this honour (of driving) on me was because every 917 driver was in hospital at the time , recovering from various stages of disrepair"

"Once I knew what the gauge was for, I also knew that if it zeroed I wasn't going to drive it mit care anywhere. I was going to park the bastard there and then, pick up my Deutschmarks and get home to Mum"

" The mechanics tried to take up a collection for an Iron Cross which they reckoned I had earned"

[alansart]

Three quotes from the late Frank Gardner:

"I think the reason they bestowed this honour (of driving) on me was because every 917 driver was in hospital at the time , recovering from various stages of disrepair"

"Once I knew what the gauge was for, I also knew that if it zeroed I wasn't going to drive it mit care anywhere. I was going to park the bastard there and then, pick up my Deutschmarks and get home to Mum"

" The mechanics tried to take up a collection for an Iron Cross which they reckoned I had earned"

Taken from Frank's brilliant Castrol Drivers Manual?

Unfortunately I made the mistake of lending out my copy some years ago and haven't seen it since

[Peter Darley]

Taken from Frank's brilliant Castrol Drivers Manual?

Unfortunately I made the mistake of lending out my copy some years ago and haven't seen it since

Recollected from various chats with Frank over lunches and dinners when I was Competitions Manager of Britax Seat Belts. and we supplied seat belts for the 917 and the Alan Mann Falcon.

[sonar]

I would say the Brabham BT55 was a very dangerous-looking car.
Even though I'm quite a fan of Murray's designs normally, this car wasn't one of his best ideas.
If you look at a picture of the BT55 now with the driver in it, head and shoulders clearly visible and completely unprotected, you would never believe it was ever allowed to run.

[Thundersports]

A F2 Minardi that a friend owns always puts the shivers up me along with the early 80s Osellas probarely due to poor Pallettis accident. Come to think of it all those late 70s early 80s cars are rather terrifying.........
This ugly duckling is a bit scary too http://www.google.co...=1t:429,r:1,s:0

Edited by Thundersport, 11 February 2011 - 20:36.

[alansart]

I would say the Brabham BT55 was a very dangerous-looking car.
Even though I'm quite a fan of Murray's designs normally, this car wasn't one of his best ideas.
If you look at a picture of the BT55 now with the driver in it, head and shoulders clearly visible and completely unprotected, you would never believe it was ever allowed to run.

Not sure if it's a BT55, but I know what you mean.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by alansart
Taken from Frank's brilliant Castrol Drivers Manual?

Unfortunately I made the mistake of lending out my copy some years ago and haven't seen it since

You get that...

The remarks about the gauge and 'driving mit care' and 'parking the bastard' were prefaced with a series of questions to the Porsche team manager:

"What about X, can't he drive it?"

"Nein, he is in hospital."

"Well, what about Y, he drove it before?"

"Nein, he has a broken leg from testing early this week."

etc...

Frank always told a good story, but while there was often a glimmer of truth in it, there was often an awful lot more embellishment.

[LRT24]

Crazy thing about the Brabham is that nobody even seemed to think it was a bad idea. The minimum cockpit height was never raised until after 1994. The '94 cars are often criticized for not protecting the drivers, but they were all way above the minimum.

[LRT24]

The noses on these Ferraris always struck me as especially small and useless in a crash.

[arttidesco]

Some of the 80's F1 cars look like they seat the driver particularly far forward...
Like this Alfa..
http://www.hallandha...meo-F1/2085.htm

Apologies for going slightly off topic but anyone buying that 1981 ALFA Romeo F1 from Hall & Hall will be in for a surprise, it certainly was from the Giacomelli/De Cesaris period which was 1982.

Andretti and Giacomelli had the privilege of being the ALFA Romeo drivers in 1981



with a mixture of 179 C's



and 1980 179's



with up dated wings and side pods.

And rounded out their with a mixture 179 C's and a 179 D

All of which I thought were excellent cars to look at but with the benefit of hind sight do appear to have left the drivers feat rather exposed.

[Paglesham]

I drove a Formula Ford at the Brands Hatch school and could only just persuade my ankles under the steering rack, which made driving with any real concentration difficult.
I still got black flagged by the Cof C for going "too fast". I told him there was no way I'd go too fast with my ankle in a potential guillotine.

But let's face it, driving and cars ain't dangerous. Crashing's dangerous (with apologies to Spike Milligan). Whatever you're in, apart from the very latest F1 car, most of the time.

Martin

[ExFlagMan]

How about the Hugo Spowers Formula Ford

http://forums.autosp...php/t79146.html

Head first into Paddock at Brands anyone!

[elansprint72]

[Bloggsworth]

I think I can trump the lot....... I give you:-



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The Dreossi Special, made from the drop-tank of a Sabre jet, note how the suspension is bolted straight onto the aluminium, no steel subframe here!

[Amphicar]

I think I can trump the lot....... I give you:-


The Dreossi Special, made from the drop-tank of a Sabre jet, note how the suspension is bolted straight onto the aluminium, no steel subframe here!

I think this is pretty scary too - Smokey Yunick's Hurst Floor Shift Special

[Mistron]

yup, that'll be the winner of any 'dangerous looking car' competition.

Why anyone would get into such a contraption is beyond me!

[arttidesco]

Getting in is the easy bit getting out alive that was the trick

[JockinSA]

Getting in is the easy bit getting out alive that was the trick

Not so clear. Is that one of those awful Formula First things? IIRC they had a penchant
for attaching themselves to the driver's calf by way of a wishbone when a front ender
happened. Oh well they were built right down to a price I suppose.

[B Squared]

photo: John Plow


George Follmer leads Lothar Motschenbacher at the 1970 Mosport round of the CanAm. I believe that Vic Elford was also brave enough to drive this beast.

[Bloggsworth]

photo: John Plow


George Follmer leads Lothar Motschenbacher at the 1970 Mosport round of the CanAm. I believe that Vic Elford was also brave enough to drive this beast.

The UOP Shadow if I'm not mistaken... They made excellent tractor seats too.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 12 February 2011 - 13:07.

[Bauble]

Sorry chaps,
But to us 'really old boys' you are all a bunch of whimps. No seat belts, shellac helmets, no fire proof undies, no nomex overalls, no roll over bars, short sleeve shirts, and grey flannel trousers, all at 160mph in a V16 BRM at Albi!!!

"When men were men and they raced in green"

Way to go!

[Bloggsworth]

The difference being that the side-car design and the Shadow were professionally made, The Dreossi was built on a sheostring budget 50 to 60 years ago, and is still racing, so when you think about it, which was the better design?

[speedman13]

Sorry chaps,
But to us 'really old boys' you are all a bunch of whimps. No seat belts, shellac helmets, no fire proof undies, no nomex overalls, no roll over bars, short sleeve shirts, and grey flannel trousers, all at 160mph in a V16 BRM at Albi!!!

"When men were men and they raced in green"

Way to go!

And lots of funerals.

[Bloggsworth]

Who didn't have fireproof undies! I used to go to the theatre shop at the corner of Long Acre & Drury Lane and buy the crystals used to the fireproof the safety curtains. Dissolve in water and soak - choice of burning sensations on a sweaty day!

[B Squared]

The difference being that the side-car design and the Shadow were professionally made

When I talked to Mr. Follmer in October, 2009, he may have disputed that claim! He also conveyed that the Shadow's that followed and that he drove, were proper race cars.

In this unfocused photo, Oscar Koveleski holds one of the front tires from the AVS Shadow that he had and was auctioning off to the benefit of the International Motor Racing Research Center in Watkins Glen. Oscar's wife is certainly enjoying the story being told, I was probably laughing too. That must be why my camera didn't behave well in this shot.

photo: B²

[arttidesco]

Not so clear. Is that one of those awful Formula First things? IIRC they had a penchant
for attaching themselves to the driver's calf by way of a wishbone when a front ender
happened. Oh well they were built right down to a price I suppose.

It was a Formula First and I count myself lucky for getting out of one at Cadwell Park after a couple of dozen laps at the racing school realising I ought to try something more my kind of pace, probably no safer but a lot more fun.

[JockinSA]

Sorry chaps,
But to us 'really old boys' you are all a bunch of whimps. No seat belts, shellac helmets, no fire proof undies, no nomex overalls, no roll over bars, short sleeve shirts, and grey flannel trousers, all at 160mph in a V16 BRM at Albi!!!

"When men were men and they raced in green"

Way to go!

I always thought the comment was "When men were men and sheep were afraid".

More seriously, long time ago I was at a club meeting on the continent and there was a round of some kind of 2CV series on. When I saw the unlimited class cars, I did have to wonder as they were equipped with GS Rotary motors in them and lightening was allowed, though I couldn't work out really what was being lightened from standard. Great fun to watch but I did wonder at their sanity. I was informed that they were pulling something of the order of 130mph into the late 80,s Eau Rouge at Spa!

[GrzegorzChyla]

cars in this thread did not look too dangerous to me (when compared to other cars from the sameperiod).

Until today:

The Dreossi Special, made from the drop-tank of a Sabre jet, note how the suspension is bolted straight onto the aluminium, no steel subframe here!

that is scary.
Is the roll-bar a later additon? It does look much better that the rest of this car.

[Bloggsworth]

I always thought the comment was "When men were men and sheep were afraid".

That's only in Wales and new Zealand...

[Bauble]

I am so old I can remember when 'Motor Racing is Dangerous' notices were displayed around circuits!

[arttidesco]

I am so old I can remember when 'Motor Racing is Dangerous' notices were displayed around circuits!

I'll stay quiet on this one

[sonar]

That's only in Wales and new Zealand...

And especially when Carlos Sainz is there...

[elansprint72]

That's only in Wales and new Zealand...

Southern Jessies! Us Westmerians have t'beasts eating out of us hands; or we have 'em for us breakfast. In fact we have them for breakfast anyway.

[Prototype]

Frank always told a good story, but while there was often a glimmer of truth in it, there was often an awful lot more embellishment.

Ray,

You NEVER miss an opportunity to have a go at Frank.

I would have thought that it was against the 'faith' to speak ill of the dead.

[AJB]

was it not the 908/2 which had the drivers feet the furthest forward? I thought the 917 had the pedals behind the front axle line?

The 908/3 had the driver's feet even further forward.

[sterling49]

Ronnie at Silverstone..............






Posted on behalf of Peter Darley, who owns the copyright.

[BullHead]

Yeah, I always thought those P34s had the driver somewhat exposed, just riding atop the machine as it were. The public were quite fooled by the flimsy surround they'd fit on to 'hide' the driver.

[stevewf1]

I don't remember the specifics of this Indy Car, but it looks dangerous to me.

[Amphicar]

I don't remember the specifics of this Indy Car, but it looks dangerous to me.

It is the Eagle Aircraft Flyer-Chevy that Ken Hamilton entered for the Indy 500 in 1982. It was very heavy and (under)powered by a small-block Chevy. Nevertheless, its weird appearance caused quite a stir when it appeared at the track. As well as lacking in power it handled like a barge and never achieved any competitive lap speeds. After spinning a couple of times during practice, Hamilton withdrew the car. The driver sat very close to the front axle, taking cab-forward design to the extreme.

[Amphicar]

In a similar "cab-forward" vein but closer to home, there is this:



The Prowess Formula Ford designed by Hugo Spowers (spot the anagram), who was also, appropriately, an active member of the Dangerous Sports Club.
Compared to a cycle race down the Matterhorn (one of Spowers's suggestions to the DSC), the Formula Ford looks positively safe!

[Duc-Man]

Another car i consider dangerous is the Porsche 909 Bergspyder.