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Bahrain GP 2011-2012 and Bahrain public unrest (merged)


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#2751 Dolph

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:34

Running the race will show the Bahrain government can use F1 as a political tool.

At this point it is inescapable for this race to have a rather significant political meaning, one way or the other.

I swear it's like people don't even read the damn thread...


Its like you think that anybody who has disagreed with your view "has not read the thread" :rotfl:

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#2752 Slowinfastout

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:35

Time to Rethink the Bahrain Grand Prix

#2753 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:37

How on earth F1 race is a political tool? We would see political banners? Pilots would put chains on their helmets or what?

#2754 Slowinfastout

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:37

Its like you think that anybody who has disagreed with your view "has not read the thread" :rotfl:


What do you disagree with?

I post some opinion but I've supported most of it with facts.

I'm comfortable with what I post, especially next to your childish rubbish.

#2755 Slowinfastout

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:40

How on earth F1 race is a political tool? We would see political banners? Pilots would put chains on their helmets or what?


http://unified.com.bh/

#2756 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:56

http://unified.com.bh/

So Olympic Games is a political tool too. And UEFA and FIFA are political organizations. :wave:

#2757 Diablobb81

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:59

So Olympic Games is a political tool too. And UEFA and FIFA are political organizations. :wave:


Lol, it's sad really. :rolleyes: Your comparison is spot on. Keep going.

Edited by Diablobb81, 06 April 2012 - 11:00.


#2758 SimMaker

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:33

You reckon you could do a better job? I'm British and, by and large, I'm happy with the politicians we have. Statements like this just make you look hysterical.



Yes, I could do a much better job.

Why? do you doff your cap to all of your superiours? and it sounds like you have many. Get off your knees man, lead your own life, stop letting others lead your life for you.


And please, list some of your favorite politicians.

Edited by SimMaker, 06 April 2012 - 11:34.


#2759 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:19

Lol, it's sad really. :rolleyes: Your comparison is spot on. Keep going.

Well it's nothing more when other sports events are used and promoted like "unification of nations", etc.

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#2760 Risil

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:30

Well it's nothing more when other sports events are used and promoted like "unification of nations", etc.


The nations they're trying to unify often aren't a police state which shoots at its own people in an attempt to preserve a medieval royal family ruling over an apartheid state with worrying links to militant fundamentalist Islam, though.

Though I'd like to point out that the main difference between the Bahrain GP and the 2008 Olympics is how stupid and unnecessary this is. China is at least a major global power and one way or another the international community has to engage with it and work with it. The Bahrain race is apparently on because of the details of the government's contract with Bernie, and its infiltration of motorsport's political organisations (the same goes for its scandalous WEC round, scheduled in opposition to Petit Le Mans). Without trying to draw too hasty a moral on globalisation, there is no way you can have a relationship with a despotic, destructive, cash-rich regime and then claim it's "just business".

Edited by Risil, 06 April 2012 - 12:32.


#2761 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:47

The nations they're trying to unify often aren't a police state which shoots at its own people in an attempt to preserve a medieval royal family ruling over an apartheid state with worrying links to militant fundamentalist Islam, though.

Though I'd like to point out that the main difference between the Bahrain GP and the 2008 Olympics is how stupid and unnecessary this is. China is at least a major global power and one way or another the international community has to engage with it and work with it. The Bahrain race is apparently on because of the details of the government's contract with Bernie, and its infiltration of motorsport's political organisations (the same goes for its scandalous WEC round, scheduled in opposition to Petit Le Mans). Without trying to draw too hasty a moral on globalisation, there is no way you can have a relationship with a despotic, destructive, cash-rich regime and then claim it's "just business".

I still don't get what F1 has with "apartheid state with worrying links to militant fundamentalist Islam". If you want to bomb Bahrain ask Nato or US to do it. It seems they doesn't found it as a big problem.

F1 is a sport, and should stay out of politic.

#2762 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:56

It's too late for that, the race has already been dragged into the local politics.

#2763 weareracing

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:57

Politicising F1 happened when Bahrain was awarded a GP on the Formula1 calendar.
There aren't that many ROYAL GP's in F1, nor that many where the GP promoter is the Commander of the Armed Forces.
It's TOTALLY different from every other F1 venue, it BELONGS to the ruling family, it's THEIR TOY.

#2764 engel

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:04

Politicising F1 happened when Bahrain was awarded a GP on the Formula1 calendar.
There aren't that many ROYAL GP's in F1, nor that many where the GP promoter is the Commander of the Armed Forces.
It's TOTALLY different from every other F1 venue, it BELONGS to the ruling family, it's THEIR TOY.


and what's the difference between that and politicians or regional government bribing their voters by subsidizing a grand prix? Personally I find it insane that Spain, a country with 25% unemployment, over 50% youth unemployment (do the math for a second 1 out of every 2 under 30 year olds in Spain is jobless) mountains of debt and in receipt of EU rescue funds is subsidizing not one but two grands prix.

#2765 Octavian

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:04

Surely there's gonna be an attempt at one big mass protest though, gonna be interesting to see how they deal with that, if the race does go ahead.




It will be dealt with as it is in any other civilised country - if the protest is peaceful and contained there will be no problems. However if protest turns violent which is the real intentions of those behind all this upheaval then the crowd will be controlled using whatever means suit the nature of the crimes being committed and if that means tear gas then so be it.
The Bahrain Government is being painted as the big bad monster here but the stark reality is that true violence comes from the extremist Shia Muslims which have seeded the general population.

Hopefully the race will go ahead with no violence on the streets but either way the race must go on, the sport must never bow to the threats of extremists.

#2766 weareracing

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:14

engel,
in Spain they have the right to vote FOR or AGAINST their politicians and their local, regional and national policies.

#2767 Risil

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:14

and what's the difference between that and politicians or regional government bribing their voters by subsidizing a grand prix? Personally I find it insane that Spain, a country with 25% unemployment, over 50% youth unemployment (do the math for a second 1 out of every 2 under 30 year olds in Spain is jobless) mountains of debt and in receipt of EU rescue funds is subsidizing not one but two grands prix.


Do you mean apart from the fact that the Grand Prix's promoters in Bahrain have also been authorising shooting protesters in the streets, burning Shia mosques, denying civil rights to the country's ethnic-religious majority, etc?

Edited by Risil, 06 April 2012 - 13:16.


#2768 jamiegc

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:17

So Olympic Games is a political tool too. And UEFA and FIFA are political organizations. :wave:


Yes but neither the Olympics nor World Cup are being held in Bahrain this year.

#2769 Slowinfastout

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:21

It will be dealt with as it is in any other civilised country - if the protest is peaceful and contained there will be no problems. However if protest turns violent which is the real intentions of those behind all this upheaval then the crowd will be controlled using whatever means suit the nature of the crimes being committed and if that means tear gas then so be it.
The Bahrain Government is being painted as the big bad monster here but the stark reality is that true violence comes from the extremist Shia Muslims which have seeded the general population.

Hopefully the race will go ahead with no violence on the streets but either way the race must go on, the sport must never bow to the threats of extremists.


Dunno where you get your information from, but what strikes me from what I've seen is that the protestation movement in Bahrain is not fueled by a few extremists, it is regular people feeling oppressed and showing their discontent by whatever peaceful means they've got. Granted that the conflict will get more and more radicalized on both sides as time goes by, though.

The initial protest at the Pearl Roundabout was largely reported to be peaceful, and yet the government ended up bulldozing the place, shooting live rounds at people and declaring martial law. Looks to me a few molotov cocktails wasn't responsible for the escalation.

Your opinion is clear though, just like it was when you saw daylight through the Red Bull rear wing.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 06 April 2012 - 13:25.


#2770 engel

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:22




engel,
in Spain they have the right to vote FOR or AGAINST their politicians and their local, regional and national policies.



Do you mean apart from the fact that the Grand Prix's promoters in Bahrain have also been authorising shooting protesters in the streets, burning Shia mosques, denying civil rights to the country's ethnic-religious majority, etc?


My post was a reply to this:

Politicising F1 happened when Bahrain was awarded a GP on the Formula1 calendar.


90% of the races on the calendar are political because they involve some form of government subsidizing the race. Governement does that cause it expects to benefit in some way, oftentimes cause it expects voters to keep it in power.

And my implied point was that similar to the right Spanish people may have of protesting their government's choices the Bahrainis can protest their government choices. Think "indignados".But threatening a track invasion, and implicitly threatening to have a formula 1 driver kill a random retard that invaded the track for the sake of furthering their political agenda (no matter how righteous that agenda may be) IS NOT protesting.

#2771 Fastcake

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:39

I am going to stand by what I thought last year, that the safety of everyone attending the race should come first and that it cannot be guaranteed in a country mired in violence. The very fact we are discussing potential protests and attacks during the duration of the Grand Prix means the country is not able to hold an international event.

It is just not right to go to a potentially dangerous location.

#2772 Risil

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:42

What about a track invasion that began before the race start, and made it impossible to start without forcibly removing the protesters? There are certainly ways of interfering with the race that would be nonviolent. Should that be the case, I'd be inclined to support the protesters over the F1 teams, let alone the Bahraini government. The terrible thing is -- and this is a crucial tool of protest, even the non-violent kind -- not knowing for certain whether there will be blood or not. Ecclestone and the F1 teams can pre-empt this and cancel the race, but they're reliant on bigger political organisations absolving them of liability, which in turn requires continued protest and threats of protest from the Bahraini opposition.

A lot of the races on the calendar are political, because sport is political. You'll get no argument from me there. A lot of the keep-politics-out-of-sport argument comes from the simple-minded calculation that "politics = evil, end of discussion". Politics is certainly unpleasant but that's not the same thing. There are a lot of things wrong with Spain having two Grands Prix, given the awful economic situation there. Which of course was in part caused by the sort of speculation and political corruption that got Valencia onto the calendar in the first place. But there will be only one Spanish race next year, so what would the protest accomplish; and in any case the Spanish regional governments would certainly give up the race much easier than the Bahraini monarchy would.

#2773 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:46

engel,
in Spain they have the right to vote FOR or AGAINST their politicians and their local, regional and national policies.

So what? In F1 codex somewhere written "do not host race in a country with monarchy"?

Why you even bother could people there vote or not? Maybe they are happy? Have you been there?

#2774 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:47

Yes but neither the Olympics nor World Cup are being held in Bahrain this year.

Olympics was in USSR, in China. WC will be in Qatar.
What's your problem with race in Bahrain?

#2775 Risil

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:48

Olympics was in USSR, in China. WC will be in Qatar.
What's your problem with race in Bahrain?


Haha, yes that Olympics held in the USSR went off without a hitch didn't it.

#2776 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 13:55

I am going to stand by what I thought last year, that the safety of everyone attending the race should come first and that it cannot be guaranteed in a country mired in violence. The very fact we are discussing potential protests and attacks during the duration of the Grand Prix means the country is not able to hold an international event.

It is just not right to go to a potentially dangerous location.

How many tourists were killed in Bahrain last year? I might be arrogant, but I guess zero.

#2777 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:06

There are more chances to be robbed and killed in Brazil rather Bahrain.

#2778 weareracing

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:06

Charlie Brown,
in Bahrain the promoters of the race ARE the ruling Royal Family, the Al-Khalifa's.
They are the same people that authorised the use of live rounds against their own people in 2011.
They are the same people who authorised the trial of doctors and other medical personnel who treated the dying and the injured.
They are the same people who authorise terror against their own people on a daily/nightly basis.
They are the extremists, but because of their "friendship and support" to Western interests in the region, THEY are not subject to the same scrutiny as say Libya and Syria, no Arab Spring in Bahrain.
Holding a Grand Prix in such a turbulent and volatile situation is not, in my opinion, a wise decision for either the people of Bahrain or the image of F1.


#2779 jamiegc

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:14

What's your problem with race in Bahrain?


They cannot provide any sort of guarantee about the race being unaffected by the level of civil unrest. Simple. :well:

Charlie Brown,
in Bahrain the promoters of the race ARE the ruling Royal Family, the Al-Khalifa's.
They are the same people that authorised the use of live rounds against their own people in 2011.
They are the same people who authorised the trial of doctors and other medical personnel who treated the dying and the injured.
They are the same people who authorise terror against their own people on a daily/nightly basis.
They are the extremists, but because of their "friendship and support" to Western interests in the region, THEY are not subject to the same scrutiny as say Libya and Syria, no Arab Spring in Bahrain.
Holding a Grand Prix in such a turbulent and volatile situation is not, in my opinion, a wise decision for either the people of Bahrain or the image of F1.


They are also a major shareholder in McLaren. So much for an unpolitical race. :well:

Edited by jamiegc, 06 April 2012 - 14:15.


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#2780 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:25

Charlie Brown,
in Bahrain the promoters of the race ARE the ruling Royal Family, the Al-Khalifa's.
They are the same people that authorised the use of live rounds against their own people in 2011.
They are the same people who authorised the trial of doctors and other medical personnel who treated the dying and the injured.
They are the same people who authorise terror against their own people on a daily/nightly basis.
They are the extremists, but because of their "friendship and support" to Western interests in the region, THEY are not subject to the same scrutiny as say Libya and Syria, no Arab Spring in Bahrain.
Holding a Grand Prix in such a turbulent and volatile situation is not, in my opinion, a wise decision for either the people of Bahrain or the image of F1.

That's pathetic. You read and trust too much press. I bet so-called rebels are hired and paid by US or other interested side and it's actually a small part of Bahrain citizens. To judge whether there are terror or not you should visit Bahrain and live for a while. Everything else just speculations you read somewhere in internet.

#2781 Fastcake

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:26

How many tourists were killed in Bahrain last year? I might be arrogant, but I guess zero.


How many tourists were in Bahrain last year? I might be arrogant, but I guess zero that weren't personal guests of the country. People stay away from dangerous countries, the same way F1 should be doing.

#2782 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:27

They cannot provide any sort of guarantee about the race being unaffected by the level of civil unrest. Simple. :well:

They are also a major shareholder in McLaren. So much for an unpolitical race. :well:

They can't? Who told you this?

To the latter part - I think we should ban Mclaren and exclude from both championships. ;)

#2783 Dunder

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:31

That's pathetic. You read and trust too much press. I bet so-called rebels are hired and paid by US or other interested side and it's actually a small part of Bahrain citizens. To judge whether there are terror or not you should visit Bahrain and live for a while. Everything else just speculations you read somewhere in internet.


Maybe you shout try reading at least some press. The Bahrain ruling family is closely allied to the US. It is the home port of the fifth fleet.

There is some Iranian involvement/support for the protest movement but nothing to suggest it was instigated by them or any other 'outside' force.



#2784 weareracing

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:32

CharlieBrown,
it's not pathetic, it's the truth.
I'm not sure what planet you live on but here on Planet Earth the events of the last 15 months in Bahrain have been widely reported.
From the BBC, Dan Rather, Al-Jazeera, Social Network sites, eye-witnesses, and yet..................
YOU BET it's the US ???
Do you know that Bahrain is the home port of the US Sixth Fleet?


#2785 Slartibartfast

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:34

That's pathetic. You read and trust too much press. I bet so-called rebels are hired and paid by US or other interested side and it's actually a small part of Bahrain citizens. To judge whether there are terror or not you should visit Bahrain and live for a while. Everything else just speculations you read somewhere in internet.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that "so-called rebels[sic] are hired and paid by US or other interested side" or is that just "speculations"[sic] you posted on the internet?



#2786 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:36

How many tourists were in Bahrain last year? I might be arrogant, but I guess zero that weren't personal guests of the country. People stay away from dangerous countries, the same way F1 should be doing.

You are arrogant.

Bahrain receives two million tourists a year [of course much less in 2011, but still not zero].

http://en.wikipedia....rism_in_Bahrain

Bahrain 2012 OSAC Crime and Safety Report

Bahrain is very livable and generally safe...


https://www.osac.gov....aspx?cid=12113

Edited by CharlieBrown, 06 April 2012 - 14:54.


#2787 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:44

Maybe you shout try reading at least some press. The Bahrain ruling family is closely allied to the US. It is the home port of the fifth fleet.

There is some Iranian involvement/support for the protest movement but nothing to suggest it was instigated by them or any other 'outside' force.

9/11 :wave:

I wouldn't rule anything. But to think people can spent 15 month on the streets, organized, w/o any financial backup and outside involment - yea, someone is still believe in miracles.

#2788 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:44

Maybe you shout try reading at least some press. The Bahrain ruling family is closely allied to the US. It is the home port of the fifth fleet.

There is some Iranian involvement/support for the protest movement but nothing to suggest it was instigated by them or any other 'outside' force.


The Iranians think they have a claim to Bahrain, so they're naturally going to 'align' themselves with anyone anti-regime.

#2789 Juggles

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:45

Yes, I could do a much better job.

Why? do you doff your cap to all of your superiours? and it sounds like you have many. Get off your knees man, lead your own life, stop letting others lead your life for you.


And please, list some of your favorite politicians.


Let's stick to the current British Cabinet (23 members) to keep it manageable. Of them, I am satisfied that the following have carried out their duties acceptably since the 2010 general election: David Cameron, Nick Clegg, George Osborne, William Hague, Vince Cable, Eric Pickles, Baroness Warsi, Jeremy Hunt, Caroline Spelman, Andrew Mitchell, Lord Strathclyde, Ken Clarke, Owen Paterson, Michael Moore, Danny Alexander, Cheryl Gillan and Iain Duncan Smith.

Theresa May, Michael Gove and Andrew Lansley are not on the list because the first has been incompetent and the other two advocate core policies (in education and healthcare respectively) that I disagree with.

(Ed Davey, Justine Greening and Philip Hammond have not been in the Cabinet long enough to judge, but I am confident they will do their jobs well.)

17/20 is not a bad hit rate. There are plenty of other British MPs outside of government that I respect, and many foreign politicians too.

I do not think of these people as my "superiors." They are people just like you and me, no better, no worse. However, they are certainly better qualified to be politicians than I am. It is a thankless job and it is a tough job. If they want to subject themselves to public scrutiny to serve the country's best interests then good for them. I neither want to be a politician nor think I have the skills to do it.

Now I'm expecting you to post the qualifications, experience and achievements that make you better for the job of leading this country than those already in office. Unless of course you're just like every other average Tom, Dick and Harry, gobbing off down the pub because he has nothing better to do.

#2790 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:47

Do you have any evidence to suggest that "so-called rebels[sic] are hired and paid by US or other interested side" or is that just "speculations"[sic] you posted on the internet?

That's common sense. Everything was good in 2010, but suddenly people decided to fight in 2011 without any reason. This is ridiculous.

Anyway, like I said one million times, political situation is Bahrain royal family or whatever pain in the ass. Why we should share this pain? Personally I don't want. And people form F1 has nothing to do with it. You should separate two things instead of mixing. Period. Bring this GP!

#2791 jamiegc

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:52

That's common sense. Everything was good in 2010, but suddenly people decided to fight in 2011 without any reason. This is ridiculous.


They decided to rise up against a dictatorship after seeing similar succesful uprisings in Egypt, Syria & Libya, but hey, if we can have a boring F1 race in a dictatorship, then who cares about the populace eh?

#2792 Dunder

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:55

That's common sense. Everything was good in 2010, but suddenly people decided to fight in 2011 without any reason. This is ridiculous.

Anyway, like I said one million times, political situation is Bahrain royal family or whatever pain in the ass. Why we should share this pain? Personally I don't want. And people form F1 has nothing to do with it. You should separate two things instead of mixing. Period. Bring this GP!


You mean just like in Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Yemen and Libya?
Everything was not "good" but the protests elsewhere served as a catalyst for the resentment that the majority Shia population felt against the raw deal they get.

In the case of Bahrain, you just cannot separate F1 from the political situation. The very man who is the GP's promoter is also commander of Bahrain's armed forces.


#2793 Slartibartfast

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 14:58

9/11 :wave:

Pearl Harbour :wave:


That's common sense. Everything was good in 2010, but suddenly people decided to fight in 2011 without any reason. This is ridiculous.

Anyway, like I said one million times, political situation is Bahrain royal family or whatever pain in the ass. Why we should share this pain? Personally I don't want. And people form F1 has nothing to do with it. You should separate two things instead of mixing. Period. Bring this GP!

Where did you read/hear that in 2010 everything was good?

#2794 Slowinfastout

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 15:00

The very man who is the GP's promoter is also commander of Bahrain's armed forces.


I believe he kinda said he wanted the Crown Prince to be separated in two..

#2795 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 15:01

They decided to rise up against a dictatorship after seeing similar succesful uprisings in Egypt, Syria & Libya, but hey, if we can have a boring F1 race in a dictatorship, then who cares about the populace eh?

This topic become boring. Why on Earth we have political discussion on F1 board? Damn rebels! :-)
All those uprisings wouldn't happen without outside help. And that's all, i'm done with this. I still think Bahrain more safe than Brazil.

#2796 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 15:05

In the case of Bahrain, you just cannot separate F1 from the political situation. The very man who is the GP's promoter is also commander of Bahrain's armed forces.

And what? With each lap on Sakhir circuit how many people suffers/died/starving etc because GP promoter is also commander of Bahrain's armed forces?
It doesn't make any sense.

#2797 CharlieBrown

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 15:08

You know how many people was killed by Chinese government? Don't buy Chinese goods! You would live naked without anything in this case.

#2798 Slartibartfast

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 15:08

And what? With each lap on Sakhir circuit how many people suffers/died/starving etc because GP promoter is also commander of Bahrain's armed forces?
It doesn't make any sense.

Clever self-reference.

#2799 jamiegc

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 15:09

And what? With each lap on Sakhir circuit how many people suffers/died/starving etc because GP promoter is also commander of Bahrain's armed forces?
It doesn't make any sense.


88 dead and 5,500 wounded so far so:

2 dead for every lap of Sakhir
110 wounded for every lap of Sakhir.

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#2800 Slowinfastout

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 15:11

And what? With each lap on Sakhir circuit how many people suffers/died/starving etc because GP promoter is also commander of Bahrain's armed forces?
It doesn't make any sense.


Does it make sense for the commander of Bahrain's armed forces to host a F1 Grand Prix when a rather large portion of the population:

-Don't want a GP.

-Don't want him in charge anymore.