115 replies to this topic

[Roger Clark]

In a station bar somewhere between Leeds and Manchester today, while waiting for a train, Dan Rear, Adam Ferrington and I suddenly found ourselves compiling a list of our (mainly their) top ten North of England Formule Libre drivers. Thanks to the wonders of modern telecommunication, we received support from Simon Arron. Adam is banned and Dan doesn't know how to start new threads (he says) so I was told to present the list to an expectant world. The top ten list is:

1. Andy Barton
2 Tony Dean
3. Brian Robinson
4. Kim Mather
5. WarrenBooth
6. David Muter
7. Jim Evans
8. Bob Howlings
9. Iain McLaren
10. Bernard Hunter
11. Paul Garner
12. David Ward
13. Joe Applegarth
14. Ian Stonnach
15. Neil Bold

Any comments/additions, etc?

[Barry Boor]

My only comment is that I have never heard of nine of them!

[Giraffe]

Should 14 not be Ian Stronach (who raced a Concorde & a McRae GM1)? I would propose Jim Charnock (Cooper Cobra) & Robin Darlington.
I'm also slightly surprised by the exclusion of Alo Lawler from your illustrious list, chaps?

Edited by Giraffe, 11 February 2011 - 22:26.

[IanMH]

If ' North of England' includes Scotland, No.1 should be Tommy Reid! Cheers Ian

[MCS]

How about Willie Wood or Chris Meek?

Number 11 should be Paul Gardner I guess.

Railways and beer - a good mix. I reckon you could have been at Huddersfield or Dewsbury if you were drinking proper beer. Or Stalybridge?

[Chris Townsend]

I'd certainly agree about Jim Charnock, and what about the man who, mostly, kept the mighty Kincraft on course, Jim Moore?

[Roger Clark]

How about Willie Wood or Chris Meek?

Number 11 should be Paul Gardner I guess.

Railways and beer - a good mix. I reckon you could have been at Huddersfield or Dewsbury if you were drinking proper beer. Or Stalybridge?

We stopped at all three and some in Leeds. I can't remember where the discussion started but we had already done top 20 football clubs so it was probably Huddersfield.

[JtP1]

If ' North of England' includes Scotland, No.1 should be Tommy Reid! Cheers Ian

Apart from the fact he is Irish.

[Allen Brown]

That is a very fine list.

I agree that Willie Wood, with at least 15 libre wins under his belt, should be on the list but what about Alan Rollinson? Or do you count him as a Walsall man?

[JtP1]

That is a very fine list.

I agree that Willie Wood, with at least 15 libre wins under his belt, should be on the list but what about Alan Rollinson? Or do you count him as a Walsall man?

Well Alan Rollinson did a lot of racing in the North. But the major missing name is Willie Forbes. Bill Stien also seems to have missed the list

[Simon Arron]

So there I am, quietly doing a little bit of motorsport-related writing, when the phone rings late on a Friday afternoon. Suddenly, I'm transported from the GP2 Asia Series to world of bitza March 742s.

Yes, Ian Stronach and Paul Gardner are correct. Not only is Dan incapable of starting threads, he apparently struggles to read text messages properly, too...

There's always David Duffield, of course, and the other James Hunt was a dependable presence in his March 713. John Walker did a lot of Libre racing in both the Myrtle Special and a March 742, and if we are talking driver ability - rather than frequency of participation - Jim Crawford occasionally took a break from harassing works Marches to blitz Aintree Libre races in a Chevron B45 or Toleman TG280. In fact, didn't he first spring to attention by setting stupidly fast times in a Croft Libre race, at the wheel of one of Stephen Choularton's Atlantic cars (possibly a Lotus 69)?

Right, I'm off to watch the South Downs Stages at Goodwood. Lots of Mk1 and M2 Escorts on the entry list, as well as a Riley Elf. If I see any northern Libre drivers lurking, I'll let you know.

[David McKinney]

My tuppence worth, from period observations solely via Autosport and Motoring News, and from 12,000 miles to the south

1. Kim Mather - possibly because I was following northern libre more closely in "his" era
2. Joe Applegarth - seemed to do much better than he should have in what was by then a five-year-old Brabham BT23C

Some of the other drivers - eg, Tony Dean, Jim Crawford and David Duffield - I don't consider so strictly "northern libre" drivers, as they shone in other categories as well.

A related factor, which I can't comment on due to failings of memory, is the number of years each name on the list was a "northern libre" driver

[john aston]

So there I am, quietly doing a little bit of motorsport-related writing, when the phone rings late on a Friday afternoon. Suddenly, I'm transported from the GP2 Asia Series to world of bitza March 742s.

Yes, Ian Stronach and Paul Gardner are correct. Not only is Dan incapable of starting threads, he apparently struggles to read text messages properly, too...

There's always David Duffield, of course, and the other James Hunt was a dependable presence in his March 713. John Walker did a lot of Libre racing in both the Myrtle Special and a March 742, and if we are talking driver ability - rather than frequency of participation - Jim Crawford occasionally took a break from harassing works Marches to blitz Aintree Libre races in a Chevron B45 or Toleman TG280. In fact, didn't he first spring to attention by setting stupidly fast times in a Croft Libre race, at the wheel of one of Stephen Choularton's Atlantic cars (possibly a Lotus 69)?

Right, I'm off to watch the South Downs Stages at Goodwood. Lots of Mk1 and M2 Escorts on the entry list, as well as a Riley Elf. If I see any northern Libre drivers lurking, I'll let you know.

Jim Crawford did indeed first come to attention at Croft- I was there , even if I can't recall the car. But I can recall the commentator- Johnny Higham?- getting very excited.
Would not put Willie Wood on my list as my usual memory of him was spinning into fields..

Edited by john aston, 12 February 2011 - 08:05.

[Roger Clark]

Yes, Ian Stronach and Paul Gardner are correct. Not only is Dan incapable of starting threads, he apparently struggles to read text messages properly,

in fairness to Dan, I should admit that it was I who couldn't read your typing.

[Alan Cox]

My only comment is that I have never heard of nine of them!

I don't believe it, Mr Boor!
Can someone remind me what car Neil Bold drove? - not a name that springs immediately to mind.

Edit: Having Googled Neil Bold, I see that he raced a Royale RP11 and runs an engine business and Neil Bold Race Car Preparation in Walkden, Manchester. I regret to say that he didn't raise a blip on my radar at the time.

Edited by Alan Cox, 12 February 2011 - 09:45.

[Barry Boor]

Believe it, Alan.

But remember that when Formula Libre was in vogue, I lived in the sourf. I took Autosport but why would I read northern club racing reports?

[MCS]

We stopped at all three and some in Leeds. I can't remember where the discussion started but we had already done top 20 football clubs so it was probably Huddersfield.

Excellent! What a great trip.

Simon mentions John Walker and James Hunt - I'm fairly certain they were in a team with Paul Gardner, not necessarily official but they always seemed to be together.

Jim Crawford's first race was indeed in Stephen Choularton's ex-Lira Lotus 69 at Croft and he won.

Did you restrict the list to a certain point in time? If you roll back a few years then you could take in all manner of others. Jim Moore is already mentioned, but John Bridges could get in as well.

Phil, looks like you missed a good day out!

[David McKinney]

But remember that when Formula Libre was in vogue, I lived in the sourf. I took Autosport but why would I read northern club racing reports?

For the same reason I did, for even further away

[Phil Rainford]

Bet those passengers in earshot of you couldn't believe you missed out Stuart McPherson ..........while would Alo Lawler qualify??

PAR

[Stephen W]

In a station bar somewhere between Leeds and Manchester today, while waiting for a train, Dan Rear, Adam Ferrington and I suddenly found ourselves compiling a list of our (mainly their) top ten North of England Formule Libre drivers. Thanks to the wonders of modern telecommunication, we received support from Simon Arron. Adam is banned and Dan doesn't know how to start new threads (he says) so I was told to present the list to an expectant world. The top ten list is:

1. Andy Barton
2 Tony Dean
3. Brian Robinson
4. Kim Mather
5. WarrenBooth
6. David Muter
7. Jim Evans
8. Bob Howlings
9. Iain McLaren
10. Bernard Hunter
11. Paul Garner
12. David Ward
13. Joe Applegarth
14. Ian Stonnach
15. Neil Bold

Any comments/additions, etc?

My only observation is that there are 15 in the Top 10!

Jim Moore and Alo Lawler as pointed out by others seem to be missing!

[Norman Jones]

Are we talking great drivers who cut their teeth / dipped intio the Northern Libre scene? Or just prolific winners

A couple of observations, yes I would have added Alo Lawler and Jim Crawford to the list - the latter's first win came at Aintree in a libre race in Chourlation's B25

A chap called Derek Bennet had a few libre wins in his self built cars until he desided to found a dinasty.

Jim Evans to me is remembered for his wins in the AET Turbo MK 1 Escort (76 -77) rather than the F1 shadow he later aquired.

Robin Darlington also notched up a few northern libre wins.

[Derwent Motorsport]

Jock Russell?

[Simon Arron]

Neil Bold also had a Royale RP15 - the 'lightning lemon'. He reversed it into the quarry face at Longridge circa 1977...




And here is the Walker March 742.

[Giraffe]

How about Willie Wood or Chris Meek?


Railways and beer - a good mix. I reckon you could have been at Huddersfield or Dewsbury if you were drinking proper beer. Or Stalybridge?

By sheer co-incidence, my friend Mike Field owns "The West Riding Refreshment Rooms" on Dewsbury station which is run by his step-daughter Sarah.


By giraffe138 at 2011-02-13



Mike doesn't own the "Head of Steam" on Huddersfield Station but gives it a run for it's money with "The Sportsman" just around the corner from the station.
(NB I didn't come to Brum from "God's own county" for the beer. ) I hope you went to "Whitelocks" in Leeds?

PS What about Rob Moores in his Modus M2?

Edited by Giraffe, 13 February 2011 - 11:36.

[Ian Smith - Diz]

We stopped at all three and some in Leeds. I can't remember where the discussion started but we had already done top 20 football clubs so it was probably Huddersfield.

Huddersfield a top 20 football club. You're having a giraffe there [sorry Tony]

Bill Stien also seems to have missed the list

"Shocking" news

I don't believe it, Mr Boor!
Can someone remind me what car Neil Bold drove? - not a name that springs immediately to mind.

Edit: Having Googled Neil Bold, I see that he raced a Royale RP11 and runs an engine business and Neil Bold Race Car Preparation in Walkden, Manchester. I regret to say that he didn't raise a blip on my radar at the time.

I seem to recall Neil splitting a car in two at an Aintree test session. The only thing holding the car together was a fuel hose - not exactly holding the two parts of the car together, but it was still attached.
Somewhere in the back of my mind Taydec rings a bell

[MCS]

Neil Bold also had a Royale RP15 - the 'lightning lemon'. He reversed it into the quarry face at Longridge circa 1977...

Something broke at the back end - I remember seeing it happen. It was the one-off ex-Manfred Schurti F2 chassis. In the absence of any available spare parts he used Chevron bits and re-appeared with the "Chevale"

[JtP1]

Jock Russell?

Jock Russell? and someone's being rude about Bill Stien.

Who has ever heard of the bottom 5 on the original list, apart from the originators of the list.

[David McKinney]

Who has ever heard of the bottom 5 on the original list, apart from the originators of the list.

If you read the whole thread, you'll see some at least have been mentioned by non-originators, so they must have existed

[MCS]

Who has ever heard of the bottom 5 on the original list, apart from the originators of the list.

You may want to put the list into some sort of perspective. It was compiled on a railway bar/pub trip (how dearly I wish I had been there!) and is clearly a personal view.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to learn that their Top 20 football list included Norwich City... (and why not?). Incidentally, Dan, what a different scene at Carrow Road these days - the Morrison's store is almost as big as the ground. Irrespective, good stadium - they were doing the usual work/maintenance and let me have a quick look.

NCFC v MUFC next season, hopefully.

[Giraffe]

Jock Russell? and someone's being rude about Bill Stien.

Who has ever heard of the bottom 5 on the original list, apart from the originators of the list.

Aintree Circuit Club meeting, Saturday 23rd April 1977 and 4 of the bottom 5 feature in Event 5, the Formula Libre & Clubmans A Class event. Only Paul Garner is missing, and I don't know about Bill Stien but according to the programme, Stein Lager is sharing David Ward's Brabham BT35.


By giraffe138 at 2011-02-13

By giraffe138 at 2011-02-13

Edited by Giraffe, 13 February 2011 - 11:46.

[Allen Brown]

Who has ever heard of the bottom 5 on the original list, apart from the originators of the list.

I have. Well, four of them, if that's good enough.

[Tim Murray]

Aintree Circuit Club meeting, Saturday 23rd April 1977.

As Tony's published the programme, and as I just happen to have the relevant issue of Muttering Nudes handy, I hope MCS won't mind me reproducing his report on that race to complete the story:

The first wet race, the Libre, was led from the outset by Kim Mather (March 742) chased initially by Ian Stronach’s smoking McRae, until Ian was black flagged after two laps. Three laps later rain stopped the race – Mather still leading from John Walker (1.6 March). Kim led the restart throughout with Warren Booth in his smart F2 Scott holding off Richard Philp’s equally smart Chevron B26/31, Philp coming ahead of Warren overall.

Results – Formula Libre – 15 laps (aggregate of 5 laps and 10 laps)

1. K. Mather (2.0 March 742) 16m 26.8s (95.55 mph)
2. D. Philp (2.0 Chevron B26/31)
3. W. Booth (1.9 Scott F2)
4. J. Walker (1.6 March 742)
5. R. Moores (1.6 S. Vee Modus M2)
6. B. Toft (1.6 Anco)

Fastest lap: Mather 55.4s (106.57 mph)

[Sharman]

I never rated Bobby Howlings and I notice in th entry the Aintree entry Ferdy Jones a driver for whom I had a high regard at the time. Like Barry i was abroad at the time and did not get to see much FL. Proper Fl yes when there was an eclectic mix ranging from 500 Coopers to Geoff Richardson in the RRA, now that was much more interesting.

[Giraffe]

18th May 1968 & Aintree once more with a slightly more eclectic Libre field.........


By giraffe138 at 2011-02-13

Jim Charnock is there in his Cooper Cobra & I remember being most impressed with the preparation of this car. Does anyone know which chassis this was?
Harry O'Brien whose son Steve has posted on this thread has got one of his salesmen having a spin in the V8 Cortina, Fred Place is out in the Cooper 76, the Phil Silverston(e) Chevron B8 is the car Ross Maxwell campaigns under the Acre Jean banner to this day, and Bob Vincent of the eponymous motorcycle family was to have given George Pitt a run his glorious GT40. but George broke his foot so Bob drove. Bob had a couple of these cars, one of them ex-Ron Fry but this car was ex-Peter Sutcliffe.

Edited by Giraffe, 13 February 2011 - 15:24.

[MCS]

As Tony's published the programme, and as I just happen to have the relevant issue of Muttering Nudes handy, I hope MCS won't mind me reproducing his report on that race to complete the story:

Wow. For some reason (probably because they asked me to) I covered the Aintree and Longridge meetings that year for both Autosport and Motoring News, which meant that I had to write two different reports for each race. Accordingly they were even worse than usual... MN never provided enough words and once instructed just 400 words for a Rufforth meeting. Happy days.

[Giraffe]

Wow. For some reason (probably because they asked me to) I covered the Aintree and Longridge meetings that year for both Autosport and Motoring News

Well Mark, Ian Smith-Diz was there that day (he wrote the programme notes!) & obviously I was so I wonder how many other TNFers (northern or otherwise) were present at Aintree for that meeting 34 years ago?

[Steve O'Brien]

Well Mark, Ian Smith-Diz was there that day (he wrote the programme notes!) & obviously I was so I wonder how many other TNFers (northern or otherwise) were present at Aintree for that meeting 34 years ago?

I was there, was only 14 at the time
Steve.

[David McKinney]

18th May 1968 & Aintree
Jim Charnock is there in his Cooper Cobra & I remember being most impressed with the preparation of this car. Does anyone know which chassis this was?

If it was the car he had raced in 1967 it was a T66, c/no F1-2-63

[Chris Townsend]

18th May 1968 & Aintree once more with a slightly more eclectic Libre field.........


By giraffe138 at 2011-02-13

Jim Charnock is there in his Cooper Cobra & I remember being most impressed with the preparation of this car. Does anyone know which chassis this was?
Harry O'Brien whose son Steve has posted on this thread has got one of his salesmen having a spin in the V8 Cortina, Fred Place is out in the Cooper 76, the Phil Silverston(e) Chevron B8 is the car Ross Maxwell campaigns under the Acre Jean banner to this day, and Bob Vincent of the eponymous motorcycle family is giving George Pitt a run his glorious GT40. Bob had a couple of these cars, one of them ex-Ron Fry but I'm unsure if it's this particular one.

D.Hughes with an F3 Brabham is a new one on me. Presumably a BT15 or something older. Does anyone know about him?

[Giraffe]

I was there, was only 14 at the time
Steve.

It was actually the the 1968 meeting that you were at Steve, and you are pictured here with John Scott- Davis on the grid, (the aforementioned R.Davies seemingly not having taken the drive). The report of the meeting says that your dad drove it in the Saloon Car race, but had to stop twice in order to close the bonnet!


By null at 2010-01-20

The Chevron pictured that is not in the programme is the ex-Phil Silverston B3 of Glyn Jones.

Edited by Giraffe, 13 February 2011 - 16:11.

[Steve O'Brien]

Thanks Tony, I bet that was the only car in that race that was driven to the circuit that day.

Edited by Steve O'Brien, 13 February 2011 - 14:20.

[IanMH]

What about Phil Bennett?...
Respectable entry for Croft 1st July 1979 -



At the meeting on 23rd Sept'79 the ff's which did not qualify for the main race were run with the libre cars. I remember getting lapped by the Bennett Shadow coming out of Sunny corner. The noise and the speed was incredible, the ground literally did seem to move! He was at the end of the straight by the time I was about a quarter of the way down. There was about 18-20 secs difference in lap times!. I'm surprised it was allowed as we hadn't even practiced with the libre cars. Cheers Ian

Edited by IanMH, 13 February 2011 - 14:20.

[Allen Brown]

18th May 1968 & Aintree once more with a slightly more eclectic Libre field.........

...

Jim Charnock is there in his Cooper Cobra & I remember being most impressed with the preparation of this car. Does anyone know which chassis this was?
Harry O'Brien whose son Steve has posted on this thread has got one of his salesmen having a spin in the V8 Cortina, Fred Place is out in the Cooper 76, the Phil Silverston(e) Chevron B8 is the car Ross Maxwell campaigns under the Acre Jean banner to this day, and Bob Vincent of the eponymous motorcycle family is giving George Pitt a run his glorious GT40. Bob had a couple of these cars, one of them ex-Ron Fry but I'm unsure if it's this particular one.

Charnock's Cooper was the ex-Walker/Bonnier T66 F1-2-63, as David has already said, and Bob Vincent's GT40 was the ex-Peter Sutcliffe 'GT 112' but Derek Robinson's 1930cc Cooper T76 for Fred Place is a new one on me. Robinson was then the owner of Motor Racing Supplies in Frome, Somerset.

[Ian Smith - Diz]

Well Mark, Ian Smith-Diz was there that day (he wrote the programme notes!)

Tony, as I'm not a hoarder, any chance you could scan and post my scribblings [whole meeting, not just the Libre]
Cheers Buddy.

[Giraffe]

Tony, as I'm not a hoarder, any chance you could scan and post my scribblings [whole meeting, not just the Libre]
Cheers Buddy.

Here you go Ian...............


By giraffe138 at 2011-02-13

[Allen Brown]

What about Phil Bennett?...
Respectable entry for Croft 1st July 1979 -



At the meeting on 23rd Sept'79 the ff's which did not qualify for the main race were run with the libre cars. I remember getting lapped by the Bennett Shadow coming out of Sunny corner. The noise and the speed was incredible, the ground literally did seem to move! He was at the end of the straight by the time I was about a quarter of the way down. There was about 18-20 secs difference in lap times!. I'm surprised it was allowed as we hadn't even practiced with the libre cars. Cheers Ian

Very respectable entry and almost all of them turned up. Robinson won from Andy Barton in his unlisted March 78/79B, Hunter, McMillan and Bennett.

New ones on me are Ron Cummings' Brabham BT38 and Paul Brooks' March 762. Brooks had previously run a March 742 but I wonder if this was the ex-Willi Deutsch/Jim Evans/Paul Gardener (Gardner?) 762. But didn't Gardener reduce that to scrap?

[Giraffe]

If it was the car he had raced in 1967 it was a T66, c/no F1-2-63

Thanks David. That would make it the Rob Walker - Jo Bonnier chassis that is now with Sid Hoole. How many times have I seen Sid in the car without realising that?!

[Chris Townsend]

Here you go Ian...............


By giraffe138 at 2011-02-13

Mark Birrell's "ex Eddie Jordan" Lotus 69 - I don't think we knew that before...

This should be the ex John Stanton Gerry Birrell/François Migault car, 71/69.3.F2. Its next move, after Birrell, was to Richard Hinton in 1978.

[Giraffe]

Mark Birrell's "ex Eddie Jordan" Lotus 69 - I don't think we knew that before...

Its next move, after Birrell, was to Richard Hinton in 1978.

IIRC Richard part exchanged this car (much to his regret) for the Toleman that he still owns.

[Alan Cox]

It was actually the the 1968 meeting that you were at Steve, and you are pictured here with John Scott- Davis on the grid, (the aforementioned R.Davies seemingly not having taken the drive). The report of the meeting says that your dad drove it in the Saloon Car race, but had to stop twice in order to close the bonnet!

Proper wheels on the O'Brien Cortina