53 replies to this topic

[southcycle]

Hi All,

If I'm doing this right I have 3 pictures of my Lotus 30. Any help identifying the car is greatly appreciated. I bought the car in Kansas City in January. The previous owner had it stored for 25-30 years. He had no history on the car or previous owner. On the left door is a hand painted "cm" class designation that may be one of few identifiers. The scoops on the rear fenders may also be different enough to help. I am happy to take pictures of any parts of the car that might help.

Thanks in Advance!

Richard South

[David Birchall]

No help I am afraid except to suggest that this should be in the "Photos of dangerous looking racing cars" thread...

[kayemod]

No help I am afraid except to suggest that this should be in the "Photos of dangerous looking racing cars" thread...

You're a very brave man to take on a project like that. Just to get that car rolling again will be quite an achievement, but please keep us informed.

[bobLee]

Have you checked out the Lotus30.com website? Email the owner of the website, he is very helpful.

http://www.lotus30.com/MainPage.html

I love these cars and look forward to seeing your car restored.

[Mistron]

nice find. is it just a body you have? don't supose it'd be too tricky to fit it to a Europa chassis?

[southcycle]

You're a very brave man to take on a project like that. Just to get that car rolling again will be quite an achievement, but please keep us informed.

I am working with Kirk Keyes and have sent him some pictures.

Thanks!

Richard

[southcycle]

nice find. is it just a body you have? don't supose it'd be too tricky to fit it to a Europa chassis?

I have a couple of Europa chassis but I doubt they will handle the power. I'm thinking of something along the lines of a Spyder chassis, but I won't do anything until the car is identified...

Richard South

[Bloggsworth]

nice find. is it just a body you have? don't supose it'd be too tricky to fit it to a Europa chassis?

Only if he's venturing into a suicide pact - Make sure the dashboard is firmly attached!

Apart from anything else, you'd never get a 4.2 Ford between the legs of a Europa chassis; in fact, it's probably a silly idea. Apart from being present when the first 30 made a, very noisy, late night, run when we were building the '64 Indy Cars; the only one I had my hands on was John Dean's, when an inboard lower rear rose joint snapped during practice: "I don't know why, but it seems to be handling like a bowl of jelly" he said as he came into the pits! Ken Marshall and I borrowed one from Lotus Components and fitted it for him. Nice bloke John, competetive in his E-Type, but out of his depth in a 30, but then so was everybody else, with the possible exception of a certain J Clark.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 14 February 2011 - 22:14.

[Bloggsworth]

I have a couple of Europa chassis but I doubt they will handle the power. I'm thinking of something along the lines of a Spyder chassis, but I won't do anything until the car is identified...

Richard South

Not wishing to sound rude, but if you are fitting anything other than a Lotus 30 chassis, it's hardly going to matter where the body fits into the marque history.

[Amphicar]

I have a couple of Europa chassis but I doubt they will handle the power. I'm thinking of something along the lines of a Spyder chassis, but I won't do anything until the car is identified...

Richard South

As I recall, even the original Lotus 30 chassis struggled to cope with the power of the 4.7 litre Ford V8. Although the steel backbone chassis design had worked fine in the Elan (and would again in the Europa), it lacked sufficient torsional strength to cope with bigger, more powerful engines. The Lotus 40 that evolved from the 30 had the same shortcomings - in Richie Ginther's laconic put-down it was "the same as the 30 but with ten more mistakes".

[bradbury west]

Apart from anything else, you'd never get a 4.2 Ford between the legs of a Europa chassis;

Did you ever see the GKN 47 with the Rover V8 installed? One of the problems with the 30 was the one piece lift-off body - no clamshell front and rear ends.
Roger Lund

[Bloggsworth]

The 30 was as torsionally rigid as cooked asparagus, hence the reason the dasboard fell onto, IIRC, Tony Hegbourne's knees when it was first tested. The Elan's chassis derived most of its rigidity from being bolted to a substantial bodyshell, the 30's body was a lot thinner, to add lightness, so added relatively less to the torsional rigidity, and given about 3 times the torque of a twin-cam, was nowhere near stiff enough. I know my Elan +2 weighed a fair bit more than my Manta GTE, so much for lightweight fibreglass shells!

[bobLee]

The 30 was as torsionally rigid as cooked asparagus, hence the reason the dasboard fell onto, IIRC, Tony Hegbourne's knees when it was first tested. The Elan's chassis derived most of its rigidity from being bolted to a substantial bodyshell, the 30's body was a lot thinner, to add lightness, so added relatively less to the torsional rigidity, and given about 3 times the torque of a twin-cam, was nowhere near stiff enough. I know my Elan +2 weighed a fair bit more than my Manta GTE, so much for lightweight fibreglass shells!

Yep a beautiful looking deathtrap. I believe some recent non historically correct restorations have made these cars handle by significantly stiffening the chassis. I have noted some sterling performances at Goodwood by a Lotus 30 pilot.

[gfastr]

Hi All,

If I'm doing this right I have 3 pictures of my Lotus 30. Any help identifying the car is greatly appreciated. I bought the car in Kansas City in January. The previous owner had it stored for 25-30 years. He had no history on the car or previous owner. On the left door is a hand painted "cm" class designation that may be one of few identifiers. The scoops on the rear fenders may also be different enough to help. I am happy to take pictures of any parts of the car that might help.

Thanks in Advance!

Richard South

CM was C Modified, the SCCA class designation later superseded by SR (Sports Racing), so that may not be much help in identifying the car as its hardly unique, but maybe some period photos could match the lettering. Have you tried contacting the local regions of the Sports Car Club of America? Maybe some "old timers" would remember the car. SCCA website is www.scca.com

[David Birchall]

I think the question is: Is this a car or a discarded body?

[RShaw]

No earthly idea whether this is your car, but #26 bears a considerable resemblance, and this photo is from the same general geographical area, Continental Divide Raceway south of Denver. Photo below was taken 15 August, 1965.
The shape of the side appears to be identical, proving only that it is probably the same model Lotus, but maybe not the same car.
No idea who was driving the car.

Ron Shaw

[southcycle]

Many thanks to those of you who have responded so far. My goal is to identify the car before moving forward. As has been pointed out, it may be nothing more than a spare bodyshell and not a "real Lotus 30". If I can identify the car I would like to restore and vintage race it, and my intent would be to make it as original as possible. If it is "just" a spare bodyshell with no marque history it would make a great one-off Sunday afternoon driver even though some might find it offensive if not a perfect restoration.

Please look through those old photos, magazines, books, etc. Many of you have extensive collections, and I suspect that in one of them lies a clue. A single photo of the car in the paddock, grid, trailer, salvage yard or track that will help place it in time would be a big help!!

Best Regards,

Richard South
Dallas, TX

[RA Historian]

The identity of the Lotus 30 driver in Mr. Shaw's excellent photo is a mystery indeed. I looked everywhere, including Mr. Krejci's fine web site and even dug out an old issue of Competition Press, but to no avail. The car is not listed anywhere! No Lotus 30 listed in any results that I could find. But it was there, the photo shows it! Possibilities include the car running in practice only, or perhaps it was in the race but the results boxes for whatever reason identify it as a completely different car, an not infrequent failure of old results sheets. Ron, did you shoot this in practice, which would give credence to the first possibility, or in the race, in which case we seem to have a failure of SCCA scoring, not to mention reporting by those who covered it for publication.
Tom

[southcycle]

No earthly idea whether this is your car, but #26 bears a considerable resemblance, and this photo is from the same general geographical area, Continental Divide Raceway south of Denver. Photo below was taken 15 August, 1965.
The shape of the side appears to be identical, proving only that it is probably the same model Lotus, but maybe not the same car.
No idea who was driving the car.

Ron Shaw

Hello Ron,

Thanks for the picture! When I enlarge it looks to have the third central air inlet in the nose which I think makes it a Series 2. Mine has only two air inlets on the front. I also do not see air scoops on top/in front of the rear fenders like the body I have. Thanks for providing a great photo of what I believe to be a beautiful car!! Of course I have a certain prejudice!!

Thanks again for your help!

Richard

[RA Historian]

As has been pointed out, it may be nothing more than a spare bodyshell and not a "real Lotus 30". If I can identify the car I would like to restore and vintage race it, and my intent would be to make it as original as possible.

Not unless you put the body on a genuine Lotus 30 chassis...

[Mistron]

Oh good heavens, who let the lid off the worm can. the owner doesn't say he has anything more than the body, isn't laying claim to an ID, he's come on here asking for help Identifying a body he has bought.

I think a project like this is to be saluted, but some people always seem to think history stopped in the past, so such projects shouldn't be entertained.

such a shame. build it, drive it and enjoy it, whatever it was part of in the past, that's what I say.

Is a bit of a 30 being enjoyed not better than it gathering dust? or should all old racing parts be thrown away rather than re-used as this might confuse future historians???? That's not how it was in 'the good old days' we are all interested in after all.

I thought this was a hobby to be enjoyed now.

On the subject of the 30's floppy chassis, is it not the case that the problem was pinned down to inadequate spot welding current, and that many were rewelded in period, resulting in a much stiffer chassis and better handling, but this was after the factory had moved on to other things, and perhaps the cars were then in the hands of drivers less equipped to exploit the cars abilities?

[Charles Helps]

Oh good heavens, who let the lid off the worm can. the owner doesn't say he has anything more than the body, isn't laying claim to an ID, he's come on here asking for help Identifying a body he has bought...

Hi All,

If I'm doing this right I have 3 pictures of my Lotus 30. Any help identifying the car is greatly appreciated. I bought the car in Kansas City in January. The previous owner had it stored for 25-30 years. He had no history on the car or previous owner. On the left door is a hand painted "cm" class designation that may be one of few identifiers. The scoops on the rear fenders may also be different enough to help. I am happy to take pictures of any parts of the car that might help.

Thanks in Advance!

Richard South

I think he said that he bought a car in his first post and later it became apparent that it was not much more than a bodyshell.

[Bloggsworth]

On the subject of the 30's floppy chassis, is it not the case that the problem was pinned down to inadequate spot welding current, and that many were rewelded in period, resulting in a much stiffer chassis and better handling, but this was after the factory had moved on to other things, and perhaps the cars were then in the hands of drivers less equipped to exploit the cars abilities?

It was designed like an X and was thus weakest in the middle - It would have been a good design for a Kart, not for a 400BHP racing car.

Building it up as an attractive road car is ideal, just don't use a Europa chassis unless you are going to fit it with a small engine.

[JB Miltonian]

Sports Car Graphic (Nov 1965) says that John Everly in a Lotus 30 qualified 10th for the USRRC event at Continental Divide, but the driver and the car are not listed in the results, either in SCG or in Competition Press.

Looking through the ads in the next few issues of CP, I find the following in the November 20, 1965 issue:

"Lotus 30 - brought up to Series 2 specifications, 289 Ford engine with Webers and roller camshaft, spare wheels, tires, and suspension pieces......$10,000,.....John Everly, Winfield, Kansas."

Could that be the one?

Edited by JB Miltonian, 15 February 2011 - 19:09.

[RA Historian]

The identity of the Lotus 30 driver in Mr. Shaw's excellent photo is a mystery indeed. I looked everywhere, including Mr. Krejci's fine web site and even dug out an old issue of Competition Press, but to no avail. The car is not listed anywhere! No Lotus 30 listed in any results that I could find. But it was there, the photo shows it! Possibilities include the car running in practice only, or perhaps it was in the race but the results boxes for whatever reason identify it as a completely different car, an not infrequent failure of old results sheets. Ron, did you shoot this in practice, which would give credence to the first possibility, or in the race, in which case we seem to have a failure of SCCA scoring, not to mention reporting by those who covered it for publication.
Tom

Sports Car Graphic (Nov 1965) says that John Everly in a Lotus 30 qualified 10th for the USRRC event at Continental Divide, but the driver and the car are not listed in the results, either in SCG or in Competition Press.

Aha! Thanks for your scrounging old mags, JB, I do believe that you found the answer to who is in Ron's photo. Now, why he was not listed in any of the results is another mystery!

Tom

[Bloggsworth]

Aha! Thanks for your scrounging old mags, JB, I do believe that you found the answer to who is in Ron's photo. Now, why he was not listed in any of the results is another mystery!

Tom

And one to which I have no doubt TNFers will find the answer (Though not me, I don't have that forensic talent).

[RShaw]

My photo above was taken during the race, unless you don't count the pace lap, which I'm sure that was. The #26 Lotus did make it past the green flag however, as the photos below will show. I, too, poked around the USRRC sites and found zilch regarding the #26 Lotus, and am glad that one of our folks had the resources and desire to pull out an old SCG, and solve the identity problem. Thank you, JB.
Ron Shaw

[David Birchall]

Sorry, but I want to raise a red flag on this. There is nothing here but a fibre glass body-no chassis, suspension or drivetrain, and certainly no chassis plate-unless the original poster forgot to mention something . This is NOT a "car".
Years ago I acquired a Chevron B16 body-it still had the "Specialised Moldings" stickers on it but it was just fibreglass panels. Probably left over from a B16 that had been updated to B19 specs to make it competitive. Did that mean I had a Chevron B16? Of course not! In the mid eighties I acquired a Lotus 23B. Good history etc. It was fitted with the body from George Eaton's McLaren M12. Does this mean I had two cars for the price of one? Of course not!

The original poster may have very good intentions-I am sure he does. BUT, from what we have been shown he does not own the rights to a Lotus 30.

Edited by David Birchall, 16 February 2011 - 03:02.

[Cynic2]

This Lotus 30 was raced by Bob Fertl (I believe that was his name -- memory is dangerous at this age) from Houston, who stepped up from a Bugeye Sprite.

This is from an SCCA National at Galveston, Texas in July 1968:




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[TEDD]

Sorry, but I want to raise a red flag on this. There is nothing here but a fibre glass body-no chassis, suspension or drivetrain, and certainly no chassis plate-unless the original poster forgot to mention something . This is NOT a "car".
Years ago I acquired a Chevron B16 body-it still had the "Specialised Moldings" stickers on it but it was just fibreglass panels. Probably left over from a B16 that had been updated to B19 specs to make it competitive. Did that mean I had a Chevron B16? Of course not! In the mid eighties I acquired a Lotus 23B. Good history etc. It was fitted with the body from George Eaton's McLaren M12. Does this mean I had two cars for the price of one? Of course not!

The original poster may have very good intentions-I am sure he does. BUT, from what we have been shown he does not own the rights to a Lotus 30.

I think at this point it is a very interesting mystery!, could be left overs from a rebuild/restoration, but most likely could be all that remains of a car if it has been stored since the 80's as quoted

[TEDD]

And here is a link to a french? forum with lotus 30 40 pics for the Detectives

http://www.autodiva....c.php?f=2&t=702

[JB Miltonian]

Going back to the original post, and the reference to the previous owner having the car stored for 25-30 years, I grabbed a stack of Autoweeks from 1981 to browse through after dinner. Within 10 minutes, I found an ad from July 27, 1981:

"Lotus 30. 298 (sic) Race Ford. ZF 5-speed. Spare engine, body parts, needs restored $11,500. Chuck Haines, Manchester, Missouri."

That wouldn't be terribly far from Kansas City, would it?

[David Birchall]

I recall meeting Chuck Haines some years ago-is he still with us?

Here are his contact details on the interweb:
St. Louis Residence - Page 349 : AT&T Real Yellow Pages - St ...
Charles R HAINES. 825 WHEELWRIGHT DR 63021. St. Louis , MO. (636)227-3959 ... 5949 LOTUS AVE 63112. St. Louis , MO. (314)382-1292. Dorothy HAINES ...

I left the "Lotus Ave" address in because, well...

Edited by David Birchall, 16 February 2011 - 21:20.

[Bloggsworth]

Sorry, but I want to raise a red flag on this. There is nothing here but a fibre glass body-no chassis, suspension or drivetrain, and certainly no chassis plate-unless the original poster forgot to mention something . This is NOT a "car".
Years ago I acquired a Chevron B16 body-it still had the "Specialised Moldings" stickers on it but it was just fibreglass panels. Probably left over from a B16 that had been updated to B19 specs to make it competitive. Did that mean I had a Chevron B16? Of course not! In the mid eighties I acquired a Lotus 23B. Good history etc. It was fitted with the body from George Eaton's McLaren M12. Does this mean I had two cars for the price of one? Of course not!

The original poster may have very good intentions-I am sure he does. BUT, from what we have been shown he does not own the rights to a Lotus 30.

A bit OTT in both tone and content David; it is only curiosity which drives the thread, Richard is making no claims as to the provenance, he is just trying to work out from whence it came. I don't read anywhere that he is planning to build himself a genuine Lotus 30.

It is a puzzler - The body appears undamaged, so why would it be seperate from its matching chassis, neither is any good without the other; only a nutter would want to, say, put a Lola 70 body on a 30 chassis, and the 30 bodyshell wouldnt fit the monocoques or space-frames of any other car, most peculiar.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 16 February 2011 - 21:28.

[D-Type]

Well, Martin Krejki lists 23 Series 1 and 9 Series 2 chassis. Lotus30.com list the same number of chassis.
These two sites could be a starting point for a process of elimination.

Edit: I have just noticed that in post #6 Southcycle tells us that he is already working with Kirk Keyes, who is the owner of the Lotus30.com website.

Edited by D-Type, 16 February 2011 - 22:53.

[Amphicar]

A bit OTT in both tone and content David; it is only curiosity which drives the thread, Richard is making no claims as to the provenance, he is just trying to work out from whence it came. I don't read anywhere that he is planning to build himself a genuine Lotus 30.

It is a puzzler - The body appears undamaged, so why would it be seperate from its matching chassis, neither is any good without the other; only a nutter would want to, say, put a Lola 70 body on a 30 chassis, and the 30 bodyshell wouldnt fit the monocoques or space-frames of any other car, most peculiar.

Might it simply have been a spare body, kept in reserve against the possibility (quite a strong one, given the 30's handling characteristics) of irreperable damage to the original body of one of the known examples?

Edited by Amphicar, 16 February 2011 - 22:46.

[D-Type]

Might it simply have been a spare body, kept in reserve against the possibility (quite a strong one, given the 30's handling characteristics) of irreperable damage to the original body of one of the known examples?

Fair point, but this body has been raced at some stage - vide the CM race number on the door.

[David Birchall]

A bit OTT in both tone and content David; it is only curiosity which drives the thread, Richard is making no claims as to the provenance, he is just trying to work out from whence it came. I don't read anywhere that he is planning to build himself a genuine Lotus 30.

It is a puzzler - The body appears undamaged, so why would it be seperate from its matching chassis, neither is any good without the other; only a nutter would want to, say, put a Lola 70 body on a 30 chassis, and the 30 bodyshell wouldnt fit the monocoques or space-frames of any other car, most peculiar.

I am sorry, I don't think I am OTT. Or even OTL.
The opening of the thread tells us he has a Lotus 30--it would appear he has a body-nothing else. Chuck Haines may be able to confirm it is the spare body or perhaps the original body or another. But, it ain't a car!
The truth may be a phone call away...

I think TNF gets used for locating lots of car's histories-it is our responsibility to ensure the history and the 'car' match.

[RA Historian]

I recall meeting Chuck Haines some years ago-is he still with us?

Here are his contact details on the interweb:
St. Louis Residence - Page 349 : AT&T Real Yellow Pages - St ...
Charles R HAINES. 825 WHEELWRIGHT DR 63021. St. Louis , MO. (636)227-3959 ... 5949 LOTUS AVE 63112. St. Louis , MO. (314)382-1292. Dorothy HAINES ...

I left the "Lotus Ave" address in because, well...

Chuck runs Can Am Classics in St Louis.
Tom

[David Birchall]

I just talked with Chuck for the first time in 25 years. He said he has owned probably 150 cars since this particular car. He needs photos of the body and he does not "do" forums so it is up to the original poster to contact him with photos. His phone number is as above and his email address is: canamcars@sbcglobal dot net

[southcycle]

I just talked with Chuck for the first time in 25 years. He said he has owned probably 150 cars since this particular car. He needs photos of the body and he does not "do" forums so it is up to the original poster to contact him with photos. His phone number is as above and his email address is: canamcars@sbcglobal dot net

Thanks, David, for the info.

I spoke to Chuck Haines yesterday and he had a great deal of information on Lotus 30. He owned several and has helped other owners with parts, etc. He was not able to identify the body that I have, but he shared several names and numbers from the 1970's and 1980's for me to track down. I will continue to chase these leads.

Thanks again to all of you who have helped, it is a slow process, but at least it is a process!!

Richard South

[Tackitt]

I believe I have found your car.

I think it is the listed-as-missing #30/L/2 owned by Ecurie Shirlee Corp., 2301 Sepulveda Blvd., Manhattan Beach, California and was driven by Bob Challman who, unfortunately died May 10, 2007.
Interesting bit on the car was that it had a Chrysler engine.
Attached is a picture of Mr. Challman in the 1965 Time Grand Prix at Riverside. Note the little scoops in the back.

[Tackitt]

I would add that you might take your current photos over to the Lotus 30/40 Registry and show them to those people as well. I am sure they would be very glad to see them.

Ben Tackitt

[sking06]

I believe I have found your car.

I think it is the listed-as-missing #30/L/2 owned by Ecurie Shirlee Corp., 2301 Sepulveda Blvd., Manhattan Beach, California and was driven by Bob Challman who, unfortunately died May 10, 2007.
Interesting bit on the car was that it had a Chrysler engine.
Attached is a picture of Mr. Challman in the 1965 Time Grand Prix at Riverside. Note the little scoops in the back.

I wish it was the body from Bob Challman's car, but I'm not sure. I owned Bob's car (remains) for a number of years and I know that the body was very badly damaged in a crash at Laguna Seca. It never went back on the car, but I don't know what happen to it either. It could have been repaired, although as I remember, it was in pretty bad shape and in many pieces. By the way, Bob's car was chassis #30/L/3 and was powered by a Ford 289 engine with Tecalmit-Jackson mechanical fuel injection and had a ZF gearbox. Alas, it is still missing.

Skip

[Mike Summers]

Richard

I think it is the body from Challmans car. I had lunch this week with Dave Thelke, who was Challmans GM for the dealership. We were talking about a bunch of different race cars when he produced a batch of old black and white photos, mostly of Lotus 30's. The car(s) were now painted white with blue stripes........Challman, then in a pissing match with Lotus, entered them as "Cherokee's". I remember reading your prior post. What struck me on the Challman car was the small scoops on the leading edge of the rear wheel wells..........just like yours. I also remember Dave talking about a Challman idea of Chrysler power. I will email him tonite and see if he can scan the pics for you.

Mike Summers
Sacramento, Ca

Edited by Mike Summers, 25 March 2011 - 03:14.

[sking06]

Richard

I think it is the body from Challmans car. I had lunch this week with Dave Thelke, who was Challmans GM for the dealership. We were talking about a bunch of different race cars when he produced a batch of old black and white photos, mostly of Lotus 30's. The car(s) were now painted white with blue stripes........Challman, then in a pissing match with Lotus, entered them as "Cherokee's". I remember reading your prior post. What struck me on the Challman car was the small scoops on the leading edge of the rear wheel wells..........just like yours. I also remember Dave talking about a Challman idea of Chrysler power. I will email him tonite and see if he can scan the pics for you.

Mike Summers
Sacramento, Ca

If anybody would know it will be Dave, tell him Skip King says hello.

Skip

[Mike Summers]

Sent you a PM

mike

[T54]

[grimeheel]

No earthly idea whether this is your car, but #26 bears a considerable resemblance, and this photo is from the same general geographical area, Continental Divide Raceway south of Denver. Photo below was taken 15 August, 1965.
The shape of the side appears to be identical, proving only that it is probably the same model Lotus, but maybe not the same car.
No idea who was driving the car.

Ron Shaw

According to the The Denver Post (Aug 15, 1965) this Lotus 30 (#26) was raced by John Everly of Wichita, Kansas. He posted a qualifying time of 2:05. I searched Competition Press for most of 1965 and could find no other races Everly did with the Lotus 30. I also found an ad he placed in the November 20 issue of Comp. Press offering the car for sale: "Lotus 30 - brought up to Series 2 specifications, 289 Ford with Webers, roller camshaft, spare wheels, tires, suspension pieces, tandem axle trailer, $10,000 will accept trade. John Everly, Box 964, Winfield, Kansas 67156 CA1-4718".

[TEDD]

Could it be this unidentified 30 ?
My father had these pics in his archives, they are not pics of his old car 30/L/12
I am guessing the pics are from 65 or 66 going from the roll bar and the cars in the back ground no idea who or where, but the tech. sticker may help

scanned by Kirk in 2004

http://www.lotus30.c..._R_Color-4.html

http://www.lotus30.c..._R_Color-3.html