39 replies to this topic

[john medley]

I accidentally read Andy Newall's post on ANOTHER FORUM 12 Oct 2010 which indicated that he was the real or imagined agent for the 2011 Phillip Island Organization.

Up front, as though it were perfectly normal and reasonable and just, he stated that, for UK residents who wished to run at Phillip Island
* entry was free
* race fuel was free
* accommodation on the Island was free, for one week
* freight from UK to Phillip Island and return was free ... just pay UK wharfage (" last year $400")
* flight from UK to Phillip Island and return for driver and crew was free
* garage was free
* formal dinner Saturday night was free
* entry to Australian GP next weekend was free
* AGP drive on circuit was free


I was concerned. For many competitors in Australia this was news to us. It meant that as we at Michael Holloway's drivers meeting at PI were asked to applaud and welcome the overseas competitors , we Australians were being asked to applaud those who caused our entry fee to exceed $600( I note that by overseas entry standards our entry fees are small. That is not the point). Before Spencer Flack hit two Australian cars who had a better right than him to be there --- because they had paid an entry fee, and as a consequence died, we had applauded and welcomed him: but we did not see responsible driving... It also meant that, say, Frank Marshall towed his little-engined car all the way from Queensland to run at Phillip Island and was put out on the 130% rule by overseas cars much faster than his who were there for free: they paid far less than he did to race. He did not race because of them and the organizers..... so he put his car up for sale, and then towed it +1000 miles home.

I commented to some of my friends that the Tasman Eastern Creek extrava probably or possibly was arranged similarly. It was pointed out to me that" you wont find out anyway. The Historic Sports and Racing Car Association's committee members have allegedly
signed a confidentiality agreement, so have the members of the Historic Commission, and quite possibly so have the Phillip Island organizers--- and a number have their expenses paid". Did we or did we not democratically elect these people to do the jobs that they are expected to do? Did we, not unreasonably,expect them to adhere to the constitution(s) of the organization(s) they lead? Did some change constitutions to help them?

I reside 5 hours from Phillip Island. If all the above is true( or even some of it), tell me why I should not enter for PI ( or Tasman), arrange through Andy Newall to be a UK entry, ship my car to the UK, and have Andy's organization do the rest( but leave my car in Australia)?

My qualifications to register my concerns include being one of the founders of Australia's All Historic Racing and of our GEAR Club, worked on committees of HRR and HSRCA over many decade, and a committed competitor for 40 years

The last pair who sought reasonable explanations from the HSRCA re finances etc were treated abominably.

Watch out, JM --- Incoming!!

Edited by john medley, 20 February 2011 - 06:42.

[Terry Walker]

Bloody hell!

[David McKinney]

Just like the old Tasman Cup days...

[Giraffe]

If that was indeed the case, there was a pretty poor uptake?!?!

[David McKinney]

For what - the Tasman?

(I'm talking early days, when starting money was paid for the 'names', but very little for the local oiks. With the introduction of the F5000 version, it was prizemoney only, though that was subsequently changed to 'guaranteed prizemoney' for the favoured few)

[Ray Bell]

There is a similar scheme for the Tasman Revival meeting, though I don't know the full details...

One wonders how Old Yella gets to qualify for any help, however.

On the other hand, the Tasman Revival has brought many relevant cars to Australia and has some direction to it, Phillip Island is not blessed with such direction.

[molestrangler]

I think that must have been a special deal for Mr Newey. I`ve certainly never heard of any deals like that and number a lot of
top flight historic racers amongst my aquaintances. We`d all be over there is that was the norm.

[KarlLeFong]

Just like the old Tasman Cup days...

In my view, not quite the same David.

In the those days, incuding the immedate pre-Tasman days, my understanding was that those arrangments were in place in order to attract the top names in the sport, Moss, Brabham, Clark, Mclaren, Surtees, the Hills etc.

In this case the arrangements seem to be in place to attract wealthy amateurs, often with little talent and sometimes with ex-aussie cars, the history of which the owners have little knowledge or interest.

It is great to see some exotic cars out here, but if that is at the expense of local competitors, then it is clear something needs to be done.

Karl

[elansprint72]

Free, free, free..... Those conditions sound dreadful; you would have to pay me to enter an event like that.

[David McKinney]

In my view, not quite the same David.

In the those days, incuding the immedate pre-Tasman days, my understanding was that those arrangments were in place in order to attract the top names in the sport, Moss, Brabham, Clark, Mclaren, Surtees, the Hills etc.

In this case the arrangements seem to be in place to attract wealthy amateurs, often with little talent and sometimes with ex-aussie cars, the history of which the owners have little knowledge or interest.

It is great to see some exotic cars out here, but if that is at the expense of local competitors, then it is clear something needs to be done.

Karl

I was exaggerating for effect

My point was, if Australia wants quality European entries, they have to be offered an attractive deal

If on the other hand they just want European entries for the sake of it, it's a different matter...

[GMACKIE]

Justice? Fairness? What about adding Respect, Truth, Manners, etc?............The list goes on, of things that are rapidly disappearing these days, John.

[john medley]

This matter seems to warrant further investigation

Yesterday I looked back at the original Ten-Tenths post,(dated 12 October 2010, by Andy Newall -- my apologies for incorrectly naming another!). It has been changed. I included in my post above what I recalled from A.N's post as it was in October. My post above therefore contains material which was in A.N's post in October but is not there now. There are undoubtedly reasons why this is so. I wonder what they could be?

It is hard to disagree with Greg Mackie's point about manners. It comes down to some extent to Whose Manners --- but it also comes down to perhaps more tangible matters like the club's books of accounts and the club's constitution. " For the benefit of the members " is a phrase that surely has some meaning -- and should be able to be demonstrated in the documents named above. Members of the several organizations involved probably need to pursue this information to satisfy themselves as members that the actions taken on their behalf as members were" for the benefit of(all) the members"

I was for several years on the HSRCA committee, as secretary. Among the several emails and phone calls I have received since the first post above have been some from other former committee members of that organization, voicing similar concerns. Many of the concerns could be addressed by an open and transparent process re the books etc mentioned above. IF, as some suggest, the accommodation bill for overseas Tasman competitors exceeded $30000, or IF the entertainment bill exceeded $ ?????, or IF expense accounts were as rumoured, or IF sponsorship income was $??????, or IF total income from entrants was $?????, then where is the problem in communicating as per constitution this in detail to all members? It is only then that the perhaps less tangible "philosophy" of the whole thing can be considered.

And surely there would need to be some degree of accountability if the secrecy clause rumour is true?( I recognize the lunacy re asking this question in a public meeting: wouldnt a possible answer have to be " I cant tell you that because I cant tell you that"?)

The HSRCA traditionally, since at least the days when the then Treasurer used to twirl his bowtie in answer to questions about the accounts, has held large sums of money. Most of this came not from spectator attendance but from members, particularly competing members some might suggest. To many of the members a central issue has always been what is being done with "our" money. Again, here is an opportunity for the current committee to demonstrate the rightness of the current committee's position -- not least re the o/s competitor position

Other oddities have emerged: Just one, for the moment while I do some fact checking..how is it that in a race for Historic cars, non Historic cars competed? Non Historic Formula Fords was one group mentioned

I am a member of the HSRCA but not its Victorian equivalent --- so I have concentrated my comments on the former not the latter, as a club member

Edited by john medley, 20 February 2011 - 08:00.

[Lola5000]

Sounds like nothing has changed,does the committee share with the general members the accounts of the club?

[mercnut]

I accidentally read Andy Newall's post on ANOTHER FORUM 12 Oct 2010 which indicated that he was the real or imagined agent for the 2011 Phillip Island Organization.

Up front, as though it were perfectly normal and reasonable and just, he stated that, for UK residents who wished to run at Phillip Island
* entry was free
* race fuel was free
* accommodation on the Island was free, for one week
* freight from UK to Phillip Island and return was free ... just pay UK wharfage (" last year $400")
* flight from UK to Phillip Island and return for driver and crew was free
* garage was free
* formal dinner Saturday night was free
* entry to Australian GP next weekend was free
* AGP drive on circuit was free


I was concerned. For many competitors in Australia this was news to us. It meant that as we at Michael Holloway's drivers meeting at PI were asked to applaud and welcome the overseas competitors , we Australians were being asked to applaud those who caused our entry fee to exceed $600( I note that by overseas entry standards our entry fees are small. That is not the point). Before Spencer Flack hit two Australian cars who had a better right than him to be there --- because they had paid an entry fee, and as a consequence died, we had applauded and welcomed him: but we did not see responsible driving... It also meant that, say, Frank Marshall towed his little-engined car all the way from Queensland to run at Phillip Island and was put out on the 130% rule by overseas cars much faster than his who were there for free: they paid far less than he did to race. He did not race because of them and the organizers..... so he put his car up for sale, and then towed it +1000 miles home.

I commented to some of my friends that the Tasman Eastern Creek extrava probably or possibly was arranged similarly. It was pointed out to me that" you wont find out anyway. The Historic Sports and Racing Car Association's committee members have allegedly
signed a confidentiality agreement, so have the members of the Historic Commission, and quite possibly so have the Phillip Island organizers--- and a number have their expenses paid". Did we or did we not democratically elect these people to do the jobs that they are expected to do? Did we, not unreasonably,expect them to adhere to the constitution(s) of the organization(s) they lead? Did some change constitutions to help them?

I reside 5 hours from Phillip Island. If all the above is true( or even some of it), tell me why I should not enter for PI ( or Tasman), arrange through Andy Newall to be a UK entry, ship my car to the UK, and have Andy's organization do the rest( but leave my car in Australia)?

My qualifications to register my concerns include being one of the founders of Australia's All Historic Racing and of our GEAR Club, worked on committees of HRR and HSRCA over many decade, and a committed competitor for 40 years

The last pair who sought reasonable explanations from the HSRCA re finances etc were treated abominably.

Watch out, JM --- Incoming!!

re the frank marshall affair,we complained to tate & cams as one other competitor did not put up a time because of car trouble but tate said in front of me,"your ok ------,we have your practice time from last year" would not even let frank drive in regularity to make the time & expense of travelling to PI worthwhile, later,speaking to CAMS about this debacle,said 'will investigate the matter" never heard another word,so much for supporting the little guys.

[gouldo]

John Medley, please check your inbox......

Thanks.

[Lee Nicolle]

John, I can understand some incentive is necesary at a meeting like that BUT if all you say is true it would seem that the local competitors are paying for them in total. Totally unfair and if that is not generally known very shonky.
Free entry is fair enough for quality cars, but the rest a little over the top apart from assistance[not monetary] in logistics to get cars and drivers here and arrange accomodation at a respectable cost.
Something all promoters should understand in motorsport in general.

[David McKinney]

The thought did occur to me, right from Post 1, that the deal might be available to, say, five cars, and the net is being cast wide to see what surfaces (I'm sure the metaphor's mixed, but you know what I mean)

[Allen Brown]

Justice? Fairness? What about adding Respect, Truth, Manners, etc?............The list goes on, of things that are rapidly disappearing these days, John.

Is that your demonstration of respect for the younger generation?

[Lee Nicolle]

As an aside what brainwave from organisers and CAMS allowed it to happen the same weekend as the Clipsal race for Demo Derby cars? Two major events on one weekend. Makews officials very thin on the ground.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
The thought did occur to me, right from Post 1, that the deal might be available to, say, five cars, and the net is being cast wide to see what surfaces (I'm sure the metaphor's mixed, but you know what I mean)

I don't think so, David...

If it were, would Andy Newall have posted an invitation on Ten Tenths? For five cars, all he need have done was phone around his best mates.

And when you see the containers stacked up at the back of the pits at Eastern Creek on the Revival weekend, you are reminded that there's a lot of overseas cars here!

[Tim Murray]

I take it this is the thread in question:

http://www.ten-tenth...=Phillip Island

and these the posts from Andy Newall:

Via Gelscoe Motorsport, the VHRR in Australia have once again asked us to try and gather together a collection of cars for the historic festival in March 2011.

Next years theme is based around Le Mans and the cars that raced there, if you feel you have a car which fits the bill please contact us via the contact us page, on my website www.gelscoemotorsport.com

Owners of cars invited will be offered a package which includes free transport for the race cars, free entries, hotels and tickets for the Australian GP the week after the classic event.

For the cars that get the chance to go, and we have one container load already, the deal is.

Free : transport for the race cars to Australia and return, entries to the event, fuel for the race car at the track, tickets for the Saturday night dinner,hospitality at the track on Sunday, hotel for the duration of the event at PI.. room only, tickets for the Australian GP, track time at the GP.

Last year at the historic festival we had one free hour on Thursday, two free sessions Friday, two races Saturday and two races Sunday.

Driver pays warfage fees Uk side, last year £400, flight to OZ and hotel at the GP.

Andy.

It does seem that they were specifically on the lookout for Le Mans cars, and presumably only those they considered worth inviting would have been offered the package. However, would Australian owners of vehicles they considered worth inviting have been offered similar incentives?

[john medley]

Thank you for your responses. Some points
1. The Phillip Island alleged Le Mans focus is not reflected in the recent publicity for the event. There may be more non Le Mans cars than Le Mans cars in the ultimate entry list from overseas
2. Yes, Tim that is the original post. It IS pretty unequivocal
3. This is not old Tasman Series - that was motor racing, this is motor sport, there are significant differences between those serious crowd pullers back then and us amateurs now (who havent pulled an HSRCA crowd), and between various other categories as well
4. At Wakefield Park over this weekend some said to me "I agree with you but I dont want to take them on", some said " You are right and here is some more information", some pointed out those who it was felt had done naughty things, some pointed out some of those claimed to have done naughty things had not necessarily done naughty things but had "been fed bullshit and lies"( including some of the money people), some pointed out the anomalies of an organization which exists to run events for Historic Cars including in its events perhaps outside its constitution non Historic cars, some said that some allegations if true are not legal, some from alleged HSRCA funds destinations said that those funds had not been received at those destinations( known, it was said, because HSRCA members were members of those "destination" organizations), some pointed out the contra deals in the past that allowed HSRCA committee members free entry/ expenses at interstate meetings unmentioned to club members in general, some ex committe members expressed their concern about how " expenses" cheques were written out with little scrutiny and blithely signed at committee meetings, some again raised the secrecy clause matters, some said " the nature of the HSRCA is such that it is not far short of imploding because of its own mistakes( so let's start a new club)". A large-ish number said they objected to the back slapping summary and qualitatative analysis of Tasman December 2010 provided in a recent HSRCA Club magazine, including " why werent we as Club members told the finances? Why were we told the qualitative but not the quantitative( honestly, accurately, and audited)?"

I am not saying that all these allegations are true - just that they were said or sent to me. I didnt go looking for these allegations. The average age in the HSRCA suggests conservatism and a degree of resignation to one's geriatric fate. Most just want to race their cars. Some have more serious experience and knowledge of organizations than those currently running this particular organization: they tend to decry the actions and decisions of current managers and leaders -- and more than one pointed out the dangers of having "businessmen" making serious perhaps insufficiently examined decisions about their club

Over this last weekend I would have liked to have had a talented solicitor, a talented barrister, a talented accountant, a talented Dept of Fair Trading Person, and some other Talenteds all in the one room studying this in all its detail, and giving us a report( minority opinions allowed). I think we would all learn a lot. What we have now is not healthy. There are things that dont appear to be right, legal, proper, ethical, and constitutional( I acknowledge that they are able to be defended... so why not try to defend them?). I argue that transparency in democratic organizations may be uncomfortable for some ,but for the greater good is good. Otherwise, despite the conservatism of its constituents, this allegedly democratic organization might dismantle itself

Edited by john medley, 27 February 2011 - 10:13.

[Giraffe]

Otherwise, despite the conservatism of its constituents, this allegedly democratic organization might dismantle itself

It all has a familiar ring to it, & I'm not just talking about motor sport.............

[john medley]

But never lose your sense of humour and your sense of the absurd.....( because big chunks of this are absurd -- but they cant see it.....)

See post 9 above, and contemplate Groucho Marx....

[GMACKIE]

Is that your demonstration of respect for the younger generation?

Who said anything about 'the younger generation'???????

[Giraffe]

Free, free, free..... Those conditions sound dreadful; you would have to pay me to enter an event like that.

I have had lots of free lunches; I'm still paying for them...............

[hatrat]

I see some mention has been made of a similar international entrants package for the Tasman Revival at Eastern Creek. The package was not secret and is listed on the Tasman Revival web site : http://www.tasmanrev...ry-information/ - scroll down and click on "International Entrant Package".

[GMACKIE]

I have had lots of free lunches; I'm still paying for them...............

It's a bit like free advice............you get what you pay for!

[elansprint72]

Let's face it, the rich guys have taken over our old car sport, they call the tune, us ordinary folks just make up the back of the grids and fill the grandstands.

[David McKinney]

Wasn't it ever thus?

Even if you had bought and prepared a car relatively cheaply, someone with the same model who'd spent a fortune on it would be up the front, and you'd be at the back

[elansprint72]

Wasn't it ever thus?

Even if you had bought and prepared a car relatively cheaply, someone with the same model who'd spent a fortune on it would be up the front, and you'd be at the back

I guess so David but at least back in those days they would pass you cleanly.

[stevewf1]

Wow, maybe some of those old fogey sayings from way back really were true... "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch"... "Money doesn't grow on trees"... "You can't get blood out of a rock"...

I'm 61 now and I'm finally beginning to see that those old folks knew what they were talking about after all.

[CarlRabbidge]

Wow, maybe some of those old fogey sayings from way back really were true... "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch"... "Money doesn't grow on trees"... "You can't get blood out of a rock"...

I'm 61 now and I'm finally beginning to see that those old folks knew what they were talking about after all.

The older I get the more I realise how intellegent and knowing my late father and grandfather were

[Tony Matthews]

The older I get the more I realise how intellegent and knowing my late father and grandfather were.

They probably made the same mistakes/wrong assumptions when they were younger, though. A few people seem to be born with the understanding of how the world really works - most of us have an inate sense of justice, fairness, trust and honesty, which is just naivety, really. It takes quite a long time to see the possible pit-falls in any relationship/dealing, and if this is not drummed into you by a 'father and grandfather' it takes personal experience!

[xj13v12]

I am not sure where this is heading or what people expect of a race meeting any more. The Tasman Revival and Phillip Island meetings are the only times we get to see some quality international cars. These are by historic standards, large, well organised, well patronised meetings far beyond what was seen 15-20 years ago. There is a cost, a trade off, negotiations etc to make it happen. If the end result is what matters then they are successful meetings showing continued growth in historic racing and helping Australia link internationally with the movement. One alternative is a return to small grids of Australian specials with the more important cars well hidden from public view in private collections or being sold off to other countries. There is no pleasing some people and it is easy to criticise. I do not see any measure here of dedicated people offering free time and personal cost to help make these meetings happen. Benefit for members must surely include successful race meetings, opportunity to see and hear important cars while their club ultimately remains in the black, which it does. Maybe further costs can be trimmed again in the future until the best balance is reached but that would never happen without first taking some risk. Are people here suggesting the entire concept the the Tasman Revival should be scrapped? Or replaced with an el cheapo tin-pot meeting that does not inspire owners to prepare their cars and get them out onto the track?

[willini]

You are absolutely right XJ13. Its is a fact that in Aust we don't have the opportunity to see the fantastic Le Mans cars, like many of our European friends. It is unfortunate that some might feel aggrieved by the offer these cars are receiving but it is a fact that it would be a LOT harder to see these cars here if not for such an offer, it is simply too expensive. I applaud the VHRR for this initiative. Last year Andy had his Alfa 33 running, maybe the only chance many of us will have to see such a car being driven as intended. As much as we need to preserve our motorsport heritage it is also fantastic to see other cars. I for one will be going both days to the Island, can't wait to see the Jag, Porsche's and Sauber.

[David Shaw]

As far as I am concerned, the whole point is not whether the VHRR and/or HSRCA help defray costs for international competitors or not. The point is that these are not companies, but CLUBS, and as such their whole "raison d'etre" is to benefit the members. How can the membership know if these sorts of deals actually benefit them or not if everything is hidden behind the smoke and mirrors of a "confidentiality clause".
It may be that there is a benefit to the club, and therefore the members, in helping to pay the way for some significant cars to come from overseas but the members need to know what the deal is, not be kept in the dark. How do the members know that it is not just a big ego trip for the committee that the average club member is going to foot the bill for?

[xj13v12]

As far as I am concerned, the whole point is not whether the VHRR and/or HSRCA help defray costs for international competitors or not. The point is that these are not companies, but CLUBS, and as such their whole "raison d'etre" is to benefit the members. How can the membership know if these sorts of deals actually benefit them or not if everything is hidden behind the smoke and mirrors of a "confidentiality clause".
It may be that there is a benefit to the club, and therefore the members, in helping to pay the way for some significant cars to come from overseas but the members need to know what the deal is, not be kept in the dark. How do the members know that it is not just a big ego trip for the committee that the average club member is going to foot the bill for?

By attending the race meeting and making their own judgement? People are certainly setting a tone that will cause committe members to think twice about doing so much work in the future. Will they in future give personal guarantees to shipping agents and customs? Perhaps the whole exercise is too big a risk for members to understand and digest. Put it up for discussion at the AGM, throw out everyone involved and start again. That will put an end to historic racing in this country once and for all. You are proposing to replace it with??? Let's hear the alternatives please. I thought the Australian entry numbers for both these meetings was an indication that owners are in favour of such meetings. The notion that the international visitors got the whole exercise for free might be just a tad misleading too.

[john medley]

I thank hatrat for drawing our attention to the arrangements for Tasman international competitors. Those pages show clearly enough the offers made beforehand to intending international competitors. I thank Tim Murray for his finding of Andy Newall's original post. I see little in either to change my original position
Between those two documents may lie the truth.

That truth can be obfuscated by the way in which the numbers are counted. It can also be confused and concealed by words. Just looking at a club's books and listening to or reading a club's words still may not give sufficient transparency to club members interested in " what is being done with our money?"

The truth can be concealed by committee members challenging concerned club members to "get on the committee, do some work, and find out for yourself" or " You find alternatives to the way we do things" or " I dont want to do this any more -- you do it" --- while admitting little else

The truth can be concealed by clouding the original or central aims of the organization, concealing or appearing to conceal the modified aims, shifting the organization's core business, and thus changing its culture

One outcome is confusion at all levels. Apply a reasonable Code of Conduct to some actions and behaviours we have witnessed and it becomes clear that those involved are talking different languages: the blind men are all feeling and describing different parts of the elephant, each confident the truth that each holds is the real or only truth.

Contributions about all this appear in the posts above. There is confusion about purposes, philosophy, objectives, logistics, personnel, roles, communication, finances, even identity and Our Place in the World.

Some clarification can come from a club constitution( and associated documents). Some clarification can come from accepting the usual "clubs exist for the benefit of their members", accepting the usual rules of procedure, and accepting the usual Codes of Conduct. If all (or not all) adhere to secrecy , formal or otherwise, or even appear to do so, not only will onlookers fear the worst but the whole organization can be compromised.

I suggest that that is what is happening in NSW at the moment -- not helped by some HSRCA committee members appearing to adhere to a secrecy agreement and some not. Secrecy and misrepresentation are not helping.

In suggesting there is confusion, I am not suggesting that the positions stated in the posts above are wrong and I am not criticizing them: in this world of confusion all are tenable points of view and all are well- and reasonably argued. It is just that we dont agree on club purposes and procedures. and a few other things as well....

[Dale Harvey]

As far as I am concerned, the whole point is not whether the VHRR and/or HSRCA help defray costs for international competitors or not. The point is that these are not companies, but CLUBS, and as such their whole "raison d'etre" is to benefit the members. How can the membership know if these sorts of deals actually benefit them or not if everything is hidden behind the smoke and mirrors of a "confidentiality clause".
It may be that there is a benefit to the club, and therefore the members, in helping to pay the way for some significant cars to come from overseas but the members need to know what the deal is, not be kept in the dark. How do the members know that it is not just a big ego trip for the committee that the average club member is going to foot the bill for?