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Pirelli - end of racing?


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#651 pingu666

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 22:41

wouldnt the high G be "easier" with 100kg~ lighter cars?

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#652 Dunder

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 22:48

wouldnt the high G be "easier" with 100kg~ lighter cars?


Sure it would. The cars were allowed to run lower to the ground and had much bigger diffusers too.
Aerodynamics have advanced an awful lot in the last 20 years though.


#653 Gold

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 07:55

Not sure about those speeds/measurements but Peratalda was, of course, heavily banked so it really isn't a good benchmark.

Posted Image

From your two youtubes, I would surmise that Murray heard it from Nigel who, of course, never exaggerated about anything ;) .
Best we agree to disagree.



Yes it was banked slightly, but don't forget it was also a very bumpy corner.

Lol, we can agree on that for sure.. But Mansell wasn't the only one I remember saying 4.5g's. I remember RTL mentioning "near 5g cornering speeds" in 1990 for Prost at Peraltada, when that G-suits in F1 rumor began to spread? In fact I even remember an article I found it in a 1994 Racecar engineering mag . HHF was testing the new Lola F-nippon car at Suzuka and his neck was hurting afterwards. Later they found out he was pulling peak 5.2 g in quick corners. And that was Formula Nippon!

These are interesting discussions:
http://webcache.goog...e=www.google.nl

http://forums.autosp...hp/t120742.html

@Pingu666: Yes that is right. The cars were 505kg including driver which is about 25% lighter. And the bottom wasn't "stepped" before mid 1994. I.e. the ride height was measured in millimetres over the entire bottom plate, hence the sparks they used to get. Now the rideheight is inches high apart from a strip a foot long in the middle of the car (the wooden plank).

Edited by Gold, 09 June 2011 - 08:00.


#654 Dunder

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 09:58

Yes it was banked slightly, but don't forget it was also a very bumpy corner.

Lol, we can agree on that for sure.. But Mansell wasn't the only one I remember saying 4.5g's. I remember RTL mentioning "near 5g cornering speeds" in 1990 for Prost at Peraltada, when that G-suits in F1 rumor began to spread? In fact I even remember an article I found it in a 1994 Racecar engineering mag . HHF was testing the new Lola F-nippon car at Suzuka and his neck was hurting afterwards. Later they found out he was pulling peak 5.2 g in quick corners. And that was Formula Nippon!

These are interesting discussions:


I think, maybe, we are talking a cross purposes.
"peak" forces are attained when the slip angles and/or slide angles are at their highest. At the point of turning in, lateral forces increase and the tyre tread and side wall begin to deform. This deformation allows the slip angle to increase and traction to be maintained as long as the shape of the contact patch is unchanged.

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The extent to which the contact patch can be maintained is dependant on the aligning moment. The maths are quite complicated but the aligning moment (camber torque) is proportional to the pneumatic trail which in turn comes down to the tyre construction, compound and and relative camber.

Posted Image

In simple terms, modern constructions and compounds are a result of many years of research and many many millions spent on that research. Most of this is aimed at maximising pneumatic trail at extreme levels of lateral stress. If a 1991 spec tyre was able to cope with a 4.5g lateral force before sliding occurred (and I still have my doubts), I would suggest that "peak" would be very short lived even with the extreme cambers they used to run in qualifying trim. The deformation of tyre sidewalls would see tyre slip change to tyre slide. OTOH the construction of modern tyres can sustain these loads (and even bigger ones) for considerable lengths of time.


#655 Gold

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 10:51

I think, maybe, we are talking a cross purposes.
"peak" forces are attained when the slip angles and/or slide angles are at their highest. At the point of turning in, lateral forces increase and the tyre tread and side wall begin to deform. This deformation allows the slip angle to increase and traction to be maintained as long as the shape of the contact patch is unchanged.

Posted Image

The extent to which the contact patch can be maintained is dependant on the aligning moment. The maths are quite complicated but the aligning moment (camber torque) is proportional to the pneumatic trail which in turn comes down to the tyre construction, compound and and relative camber.

Posted Image

In simple terms, modern constructions and compounds are a result of many years of research and many many millions spent on that research. Most of this is aimed at maximising pneumatic trail at extreme levels of lateral stress. If a 1991 spec tyre was able to cope with a 4.5g lateral force before sliding occurred (and I still have my doubts), I would suggest that "peak" would be very short lived even with the extreme cambers they used to run in qualifying trim. The deformation of tyre sidewalls would see tyre slip change to tyre slide. OTOH the construction of modern tyres can sustain these loads (and even bigger ones) for considerable lengths of time.


Yes I agree. We have slip angle estimates of Goodyears at 6 degrees and Pirelli's at 8 degrees of lateral slip for 1991. I am still trying to contact some people to get longitudonal slip angles or pajeca curves. By comparison a modern Avon replica tyre (of 1991 dimensions) used to run historic 1991 cars at shows, etc has a slip angle of 10, so it's built more for safety and composision.

I know that Goodyear in 1991 had qualifying tyres which lasted only 1 lap at maximum grip and construction (sometimes not even that lap if improperly warmed). I think this 1 lap tire could generate 4.5 g of grip in qualifying trim in 1991, perhaps that is the reason for the confusion. :) Race tires were not as grippy, I remember there being a real visual difference between quali trim and early race trim back then, much more so than today.

Edited by Gold, 09 June 2011 - 10:53.


#656 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 07:46

Once more Pirelli Kill F1, this is racing, is speed, is the best cars around the world!!! But this tyres in F1 is a real joke.

This tyres kills F1 and driving skill for Hamilton.

Please STOP this JOKE!!!!

#657 ferrarijon123

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 07:48

Once more Pirelli Kill F1, this is racing, is speed, is the best cars around the world!!! But this tyres in F1 is a real joke.

This tyres kills F1 and driving skill for Hamilton.

Please STOP this JOKE!!!!

Its the same for everyone. I think the tyres are making f1 more exciting. Just because it doesnt suit hamilton doesnt mean pirelli should change their approach.

#658 ViMaMo

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 08:03

Why should some people accept the artificiality induced into these tyres? P(erformance) Zero, max entertainment. But Im okay with it :)

#659 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 08:11

End of racing guys, this tyres aren´t good for agressive drivers. Once more, this is F1, don´t truck racing!!!

Edited by Kimiraikkonen, 09 October 2011 - 08:19.


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#660 Sevach

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 08:13

End of racing guys, this tyres aren´t good for agressive drivers. Once more, this is F1, don´t trcuk racing!!!


Yeah, Bridgestone tyres were marvelous for racing :rolleyes:

#661 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 08:19

Yeah, Bridgestone tyres were marvelous for racing :rolleyes:


BS vs Michelin, racing competiton and tyre manufacturer competition!!!!!

Michelin said in 2007 that they did´t racing if FIA only want one manufacturer.

#662 Sakae

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 08:20

Tire performance variability drives me nuts; hate every nanosecond of it.

#663 olliek88

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 08:30

Once more Pirelli Kill F1, this is racing, is speed, is the best cars around the world!!! But this tyres in F1 is a real joke.

This tyres kills F1 and driving skill for Hamilton.

Please STOP this JOKE!!!!


The best drivers should be able to adapt.

#664 Snic

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 09:56

There's been more breathtaking awesome overtakes this season then I can ever remember. Webber at Eau Rouge, Sutil at 130R, Vettel at Curva Grande, Button at Canada on .. everyone! Even Monaco, Singapore and Catalunya had tense and close racing throughout.

Everything is now a delicate balance- lose time sat behind another car or go for the overtake quickly & risk taking too much out of the tyres? Overtaking has become more crucial than ever with the additional pit stops as you don't want to lose time in traffic and be left vulnerable to the undercut. Pirelli has made racing and overtaking a tactical battle

Also cars are able to follow each other more closely in dirty air since they aren't all going full tilt the whole way round making for closer wheel-to-wheel racing.

If Hamilton wants to be WDC again he needs to adapt. Even on qualifying laps when tyre management isn't important he still hasn't been dominating and this has put him back in the pack.

Either way Pirelli is here to stay!

Edited by Snic, 09 October 2011 - 10:36.


#665 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 10:00

There's been more breathtaking awesome overtakes this season then I can ever remember. Three-wide into Webber at Eau Rouge, Sutil at 130R, Vettel at Curva Grande, Button at Canada on .. everyone! Even Monaco, Singapore and Catalunya had tense and close racing throughout.

Everything is now a delicate balance- lose time sat behind another car or go for the overtake quickly & risk taking too much out of the tyres? Overtaking has become more crucial than ever with the additional pit stops as you don't want to lose time in traffic and be left vulnerable to the undercut. Pirelli has made racing and overtaking a tactical battle

Also cars are able to follow each other more closely in dirty air since they aren't all going full tilt the whole way round making for closer wheel-to-wheel racing.

If Hamilton wants to be WDC again he needs to adapt. Even on qualifying laps when tyre management isn't important he still hasn't been dominating and this has put him back in the pack.

Either way Pirelli is here to stay!



Hamilton always is Spectacular.... why pirelli wants kill his drive skill? Schumacher, Kobayashi and Lewis are really penalised by this kind of tyres.



#666 Snic

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 10:31

Hamilton always is Spectacular.... why pirelli wants kill his drive skill? Schumacher, Kobayashi and Lewis are really penalised by this kind of tyres.


No driver is always spectacular, a spectacular drive is just one in which a driver can maximise the car's potential over a race distance [and pulling off some balls to the wall overtakes always helps!]. In that respect Button & Alonso were much more spectacular today as they not drove consistently faster and also made the tyres last longer than Lewis on all 3 stints...

Regards other drivers Kobayashi got points in the first 7 races of the season, his Sauber just hasn't progressed as much as the Force India has. Schumacher is pretty much the same as last year, ie slower than Rosberg in qualifying - if anything one could argue his race strategy with tyre management has allowed him to stay in touch with Roserg's points tally whereas last year he finished 70 points behind Rosberg in the standings.

I think the talk of LH's supposed harshness on tyres is overplayed, he just has been in too many incidents or has been let down by Mcclaren too often this season to show of his undoubted skill. He is a very intelligent guy - to be a World class driver you have to be, and he will come back stronger and more mature next year. Lewis has the same tyre as everyone else. He just needs to learn to drive them fast over race distance!

#667 Bonaventura

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 10:48

Hamilton always is Spectacular.... why pirelli wants kill his drive skill? Schumacher, Kobayashi and Lewis are really penalised by this kind of tyres.

:up:
All praise this drivers for being true races, but with racing nowadays is punished, It'll be the end of proper racers.
(we might add Webber who suffers, too)

Edited by Bonaventura, 09 October 2011 - 10:48.


#668 pingu666

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 15:50

webbers suffered the worst tbh

#669 ZooL

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 19:24

I think the tyre formula is wrong because you can now make a bigger difference by making the tyre last.

#670 fieraku

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 19:43

Regards other drivers Kobayashi got points in the first 7 races of the season, his Sauber just hasn't progressed as much as the Force India has.


You must have missed his teammate today starting 17th and finishing 8th and 25 seconds ahead of Kamui,who was this great exciting driver and has been invisible all year long. Perez has finished three times in the points last 8-9? races,KK once and I won't bother looking at each race performance but it's clear even to a blind bat that these tires don't fit him or his style.

#671 MaxisOne

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 20:03

Hamilton always is Spectacular.... why pirelli wants kill his drive skill? Schumacher, Kobayashi and Lewis are really penalised by this kind of tyres.


Yet .. Schumacher is slowly trying to adapt ...

The tyres are the same for everyone... Lewis needs to adapt ... bottom line ..

#672 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 22:25

Yet .. Schumacher is slowly trying to adapt ...

that didn't stop all the crap he got before being able to adapt a bit to them.
also lewis is still pretty young and unexperienced. michael drove goodyears, bridgestones, tyre war bridgestones, one set per race bridgestones, spec bridgestones, now pirellis...
he's driven a lot of cars with a lot of different power to grip ratio yet he still probably prefers something else.he's also 42 but people kept questioning whether he still understands anything about f1 and performance. adapting with no testing and little car changes is very hard. look at kimi in ferrari...

tyres are really the same for everybody and if they encouraged the attacking drivers it would be unfair to the other ones :)

it's not fair to say it's lewis's problem to adapt. the team needs to work to give him the feel he needs. like in every organisation the management is responsible to make sure the person gets everything to deliver at their best. when you alter you feelings to suit a car/situation you're not at your best

#673 Sakae

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 01:15

The best drivers should be able to adapt.

Problem is (I think), that tire performances do vary even between teammates, hence I fear that it is not the same for all. If the team builds an inferior car, that's one thing, but third party exerting undue influence on driver's performance to the extend we see this year from Hembery seems excessive for my liking.

#674 Myrvold

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 10:47

There will always be tyres that's better for some drivers than others. This year the tyres doesn't fit the guys who is pushing 110% all the time. With the 2010 Bridgestones, they didn't fit the guys who drive much more calculated. That's just how it is.

Anyway, everyone can't be happy. A lot of people complained about Bridgestone, and a lot of people complain about Pirelli. Just be happy that someone actuallye are making tyres for teams and npt at least fans who always complain.

#675 jonnoj

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 22:00

I see Pirelli are at it again. They might believe F1 revolves (pun intended) around their awful tyres, but I don't.

Pirelli promises Korean GP tyre choice will give teams a challenge

I want to see some racing, not teams/drivers struggling to get their cars to the finish on rubber that's being made to fail.



#676 Sakae

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 22:18

I see Pirelli are at it again. They might believe F1 revolves (pun intended) around their awful tyres, but I don't.

Pirelli promises Korean GP tyre choice will give teams a challenge

I want to see some racing, not teams/drivers struggling to get their cars to the finish on rubber that's being made to fail.

+1

I am not sure what's happening in here, but from looks of it, it is only very few left (and I am one of them), who hate this year specifications. I would not call myself excentric, but this is absolutely crazy. You are dead on with your assertion IMO.

Edited by Sakae, 12 October 2011 - 22:19.


#677 Mastah

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 08:39

Tyres were perfect today. Really, perfect. I thought it will be disaster when they were saying about very aggresive choice for Korea, but it turned out to be spot on decision. 2 stops for almost everyone, tyres allowed to push hard, great :up:.

#678 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 10:12

Could it be that Pirelli actually know a bit more about racing tyres than us lot? :well:







Oh don't be silly PYR. Everyone on this forum is an expert #tomyself :rolleyes:

#679 olliek88

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 10:47

Pirelli got it about right today, close between a two stopper and a three, about right for me.

Although i suspect the chilly track temps helped them out, had it been a bit warmer it would of been a bit on the edge. Its nice to see them trying different things out, as they are in India too, perhaps they'll have alter the 4 compounds abit next year so they asre close between a two/three stoppper a bit like today but one compound needs to last much longer than the other to mix up the strategies.

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#680 Mastah

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 03:54

PaulHembery Paul Hembery
“@raymondu999: @PaulHembery how are compounds changing for next year? ?” less difference in peak performance , 3 new compounds


PaulHembery Paul Hembery
“@CAGMVE: @PaulHembery How is the new experimental Soft compound? Durability? Harder than old one?” improved blister resistance


Edited by Mastah, 10 November 2011 - 03:57.


#681 Bonaventura

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 09:29


Paul Hembry to the Gazetta dello Sport
Ferrari will probably benefit most from softer tyres
Vettel & Button (& the Saubers) were the drivers who could handle the Pirelli tyres the best
(what a coincidence when you look at the WDC standings )

http://www.motorspor...rei-stopps.html

#682 Disgrace

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 09:44

That is assuming next year's Ferrari shares the same characteristics of this one: decent race pace through durability but at the cost of no qualifying pace and the inability to handle hard tyres.

The statement is really quite hypothetical and meaningless so ultimately harmless.

#683 PretentiousBread

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 14:29

Paul Hembry to the Gazetta dello Sport
Ferrari will probably benefit most from softer tyres
Vettel & Button (& the Saubers) were the drivers who could handle the Pirelli tyres the best
(what a coincidence when you look at the WDC standings )

http://www.motorspor...rei-stopps.html


According to Hembury, he's said that although the new tyres will be softer, they 'can be pushed more' than the current ones.

That is assuming next year's Ferrari shares the same characteristics of this one: decent race pace through durability but at the cost of no qualifying pace and the inability to handle hard tyres.

The statement is really quite hypothetical and meaningless so ultimately harmless.


Ferraris have had this characteristic for basically the whole of the past decade so it's reasonable to assume that this will help them next year.

#684 Disgrace

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 15:00

Perhaps, but next year's car is under the new design team and they've simply got to go aggressive or face the sack. I think they might surprise in that regard.

Edited by Disgrace, 24 November 2011 - 15:00.


#685 femi

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 17:24

Perhaps, but next year's car is under the new design team and they've simply got to go aggressive or face the sack. I think they might surprise in that regard.


I think both Ferrari and Mclaren are just going through the motions - "we are here to win blah blah blah" Ferrari are still dominating the sports car market and Mclaren are on track to providing sound alternative. Outside of these 2, there are no other teams in F1 competing with them in the sport cars market. They can therefore afford to coming 2nd and 3rd in the championships.

F1 is the exciting car motor sport, loads of followers and loads of "cheap" publicity. They both have exciting drivers (Alonso and LH). I don't think Ferrari are going to sack anyone barring Massa even if they finish 3rd in 2012. I don't think they are going to sell more cars even if they came 1st. Right now, for both teams, F1 is about selling cars...

Edited by femi, 24 November 2011 - 17:25.


#686 PretentiousBread

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 11:04

I think both Ferrari and Mclaren are just going through the motions - "we are here to win blah blah blah" Ferrari are still dominating the sports car market and Mclaren are on track to providing sound alternative. Outside of these 2, there are no other teams in F1 competing with them in the sport cars market. They can therefore afford to coming 2nd and 3rd in the championships.

F1 is the exciting car motor sport, loads of followers and loads of "cheap" publicity. They both have exciting drivers (Alonso and LH). I don't think Ferrari are going to sack anyone barring Massa even if they finish 3rd in 2012. I don't think they are going to sell more cars even if they came 1st. Right now, for both teams, F1 is about selling cars...


I fear this is a depressing semi truth. I still find it hard to believe that McLaren and Ferrari have had over 2 years to catch up and yet still they're not really that close.

#687 fieraku

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 00:30

It seems so for me at least. :cry:

Pirelli will not hesitate to modify its Formula 1 tyres next year if it feels the racing is getting boring.

I don't think I can nominate super soft and super soft for a race yet, but we can make changes during the year as well. And we will not hesitate to do that if we feel it is becoming boring.

To help ensure things are kept exciting next year, Hembery has said that the plan is to ensure the gap between compounds is closer and that the softer family of tyres are both quicker and degrade more.

"It is all to do with crossover points," he said. "What you need is the softer tyres, the super soft and the soft, they need to be fast but degrade. The medium and harder tyre need to be slower but be more stable, and basically you have to work how many laps you go before you are better off being on the other one. That is a simplistic way of looking at it.

"This year we haven't had that. We have had the soft used everywhere, and now unfortunately drivers are doing 20 laps plus, and then the harder tyre is used for a small stint at the end because the performance gap is too far away.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/96479
Boring? Having 1500 meaningless passes is boring to me,drivers thinking Fri/Sat and Sun only about tires is boring to me.WTF has happened to F1? Why are we talking about tires,tires,tires,tires and more tires every race? I have watched F1 since 94 and I don't think I've heard the word tire this much even in the midst of the tire wars.

Degrade more?Like what?On the first lap?Bubble Gum isn't enough? We've already seen them go off in three or four laps,so in a 60 lap race the driver will spend 10 laps racing and 50 "looking after the tires"?

Crossover points? Nahhhhhhhhhh. Reallyyyyyyy? IT WON'T WORK :wave: After 2-3 races the teams will understand those tires as well and the top 10 will always be on the same strategy. The mid runners will slice&dice with strategies like they've always done.

I'm sorry but I'm not a WWE fan for a reason,is it exciting? hell yeah! ladders,chairs and all kinds of props to not make it boring,BUT it's fake!
Is MMA boring sometimes? hell yeah! but it's as real as it gets.

I love great defense as much as great offense,my highlights and personal favorites this year were Schu holding Ham behind for 25? laps and Ham holding Web for 35?

It is sad that the new era of PS3/X-Box fans are obsessed with meaningless fake racing.

Edited by fieraku, 27 November 2011 - 00:30.


#688 pingu666

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 03:55

if its more linier degredation then itll be better, right now i guess u got a lap or 2 with full grip, then it drops abit and stays constantish (or pretty low degredation) for x laps and then they cliff. and if they cliff your trying to not crash the damn car.

all the talk is of tyres because the engines are frozen, kers is pretty much frozen.

so tyres, front wings and exhausts, yay :|

#689 jonnoj

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 07:48

I don't think we'll be seeing any more bubblegum tyres from Pirelli. They have received adverse publicity for producing crap tyres for F1. I believe another tyre manufacturer had sold a lot of tyres on the back of "Don't buy Pirelli tyres that only last 40 miles". Telling us they produced tyres to FIA's spec doesn't wash with the public who conclude the tyres they've paid for could also be made to wear out quicker than those from a rival manufacturer.

I wonder if Bridgestone has thought of saying "We were asked to make tyres that wear badly, but we refused to lower our standards"




#690 PretentiousBread

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 12:23

It seems so for me at least. :cry:

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/96479
Boring? Having 1500 meaningless passes is boring to me,drivers thinking Fri/Sat and Sun only about tires is boring to me.WTF has happened to F1? Why are we talking about tires,tires,tires,tires and more tires every race? I have watched F1 since 94 and I don't think I've heard the word tire this much even in the midst of the tire wars.

Degrade more?Like what?On the first lap?Bubble Gum isn't enough? We've already seen them go off in three or four laps,so in a 60 lap race the driver will spend 10 laps racing and 50 "looking after the tires"?

Crossover points? Nahhhhhhhhhh. Reallyyyyyyy? IT WON'T WORK :wave: After 2-3 races the teams will understand those tires as well and the top 10 will always be on the same strategy. The mid runners will slice&dice with strategies like they've always done.

I'm sorry but I'm not a WWE fan for a reason,is it exciting? hell yeah! ladders,chairs and all kinds of props to not make it boring,BUT it's fake!
Is MMA boring sometimes? hell yeah! but it's as real as it gets.


I love great defense as much as great offense,my highlights and personal favorites this year were Schu holding Ham behind for 25? laps and Ham holding Web for 35?

It is sad that the new era of PS3/X-Box fans are obsessed with meaningless fake racing.


That's actually a brilliant analogy y'know. To the untrained eye, UFC is just a couple of blokes lying on on top of each other for 15 minutes - the fights are always hyped loads and then when they come they generally aren't obviously 'exciting' - but it's pure combat that the purists and people who understand the sport love. Some of that same purity and appreciation of it has definitely gone missing in F1.

#691 fieraku

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 13:37

That's actually a brilliant analogy y'know. To the untrained eye, UFC is just a couple of blokes lying on on top of each other for 15 minutes - the fights are always hyped loads and then when they come they generally aren't obviously 'exciting' - but it's pure combat that the purists and people who understand the sport love. Some of that same purity and appreciation of it has definitely gone missing in F1.


Exactly!

#692 tkulla

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 14:17

That's actually a brilliant analogy y'know. To the untrained eye, UFC is just a couple of blokes lying on on top of each other for 15 minutes - the fights are always hyped loads and then when they come they generally aren't obviously 'exciting' - but it's pure combat that the purists and people who understand the sport love. Some of that same purity and appreciation of it has definitely gone missing in F1.


I know we're off topic, but I have a question for UFC fans - has it reached beginning of the decline yet? By that I mean has it started to spread out to multiple champions at each weight class (MMA in general) and are the best fighters fighting less than they used to? Are the cards getting weaker (maybe one great fight along with some crap to fill out the night)?

I was a boxing fan in the 80s when it was absolutely amazing. Great cards multiple times a year and the best guys all fought each other. Then the promoters got greedy, which led to boxing's current state (aka lame).

UFC is now big money, so I'm wondering whether history will repeat itself.

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Back on topic...

A quick google news search found this from a couple of weeks ago on Bloomberg:

"Pirelli & C. SpA gained 14 percent as Europe’s third- largest maker of tires said its operating profit margin will increase to more than 16 percent in 2015 from 8.4 percent in 2010."

I don't think F1 is hurting Pirelli.




#693 jonnoj

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 14:24

Back on topic...

A quick google news search found this from a couple of weeks ago on Bloomberg:

"Pirelli & C. SpA gained 14 percent as Europe’s third- largest maker of tires said its operating profit margin will increase to more than 16 percent in 2015 from 8.4 percent in 2010."

I don't think F1 is hurting Pirelli.


And Michelin is up too.

http://www.foxbusine...venue-rises-11/