85 replies to this topic

[Cam2InfoNeeded]

Jim,

My brother and I were both born in Indiana and not too far from Indianapolis. My brother had a nice mail correspondence relationship with Mr. Sirois for many years, and he was indeed a really nice guy. I believe it was the call of the car owner to not complete the qualifying attempt, not Jigger's.

Edited by Cam2InfoNeeded, 23 February 2011 - 19:46.

[Amphicar]

In 1946, Lou Fageol's twin-engined 4WD "Fageol Twin Coach Special" could have caused an upset to rival that of the 4WD turbine cars. Based on an 11 year old Miller chassis it had two Roots supercharged 1.47 litre Offenhauser engines, one at the front and one at the back. Although the car was very heavy it was fast and stable and Paul Russo qualified on the front row of the grid, with an average of 126.183mph. Russo was in the leading group early on in the race but he skidded on oil on lap 16 and went into the wall, breaking a leg.

The Fageol Twin Coach Special wasn't seen at the Brickyard again. Does anyone know why not or why no one else picked up on the twin engine 4WD concept until the woeful “Brickyard Porsche” 20 years later?

[Flat Black 84]

If JR had managed to negotiate that final turn four he would have been a prime candidate to take the fig in this thread.

[xj13v12]

This thread title says biggest upset not biggest upset win. On that basis I still regard Jack's little 2.7 litre Cooper in 1961 as by far the biggest upset. He finished on the same lap as the winner. They spent far too much time in the pits, more than enough to have won the race and proved that the concept was the future. That's an upset!

[D-Type]

Slightly OT: I can never understand why Cooper never went back. They had tested the waters and come away richer than when they arrived, So why not try again in 1962?

Edited by D-Type, 31 May 2011 - 22:14.

[Collombin]

On that basis I still regard Jack's little 2.7 litre Cooper in 1961 as by far the biggest upset. He finished on the same lap as the winner.

Sorry, but that is not the case at all, he was about 8 minutes behind Foyt, which is several laps down however you want to look at it.

[xj13v12]

Sorry, but that is not the case at all, he was about 8 minutes behind Foyt, which is several laps down however you want to look at it.

You may be right but the records show that he did 200 laps. How much longer did the race run after the flag dropped? I recall Bobby Unser was criticised by Gurney for failing to stay on the track and use an extra 10 minutes or something one year. This was an Indy specific rule and I admit I don't understand how it worked.
Whatever - THAT was an upset from the moment he turned up to practice and do the rookie test. Clark's win was the culmination of the move to rear engined F1 style race cars.

[Updraught]

Slightly OT: I can never understand why Cooper never went back. They had tested the waters and come away richer than when they arrived, So why not try again in 1962?

Cooper did not come back to Indy because Jack Brabham left the team after 1961. It was not Cooper who wanted to come to Indy, but Brabham.

Jack came back with his own car in 1964, pretty much a shoestring effort, but many, many Indy chassis from 1965-1968 were based upon the design of that Brabham Indy car. These cars include the Dean Van Lines Hawk with which Andretti won the championship with in 65-66 and finished 2nd in 67-68. Pole at Indy in 66-67, and most likely the basis of the 1969 winning car as well.

I have never understood why there was not a "Ralt" Indy car chassis, the designer was certainly capable!

[Nigel Beresford]

I have never understood why there was not a "Ralt" Indy car chassis, the designer was certainly capable!

There was some sort of plan - at least I remember Ron having photos of contemporary Indy cars and talking about doing a car when I worked there in the first half of '86. I remember a layout too. It's too long ago for me to remember why it didn't get off the ground.

Nigel

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 01 June 2011 - 15:34.

[ZOOOM]

The Fageol Twin Coach Special wasn't seen at the Brickyard again. Does anyone know why not or why no one else picked up on the twin engine 4WD concept until the woeful “Brickyard Porsche” 20 years later?

Someone pointed out somewhere that the car employed a rear engine facing forward and driving the rear wheels, and a rearward facing engine in front driving the front wheels.
That put the driver in the tiny cockpit with TWO superchargers in his lap and back.
Even Russo was NOT impressed.

ZOOOM

[E1pix]

Depending on one's definition of "biggest upset," I think we saw it three days ago.

Using history as a reference.... and the current spec formula having 15 potential victors these days.... the worst part is that this may well have been JR's only chance to win the 500.

Tragic Upset for him!!!

Edited by E1pix, 01 June 2011 - 18:41.

[Bob Riebe]

I think Eddie Cheever and Racheal's Potato Chips was not expected.

[ensign14]

I think Eddie Cheever and Racheal's Potato Chips was not expected.

Well, it was a bit last minute and low budget, but Cheever was easily better than practically everyone else in the field.

Edited by ensign14, 01 June 2011 - 20:15.

[URY914]

Well, it was a bit last minute and low budget, but Cheever was easily better than practically everyone else in the field.

That says a lot about the field.

[ensign14]

That says a lot about the field.

Steve Knapp came third.

[thatguy0101]

Depending on one's definition of "biggest upset," I think we saw it three days ago.

Using history as a reference.... and the current spec formula having 15 potential victors these days.... the worst part is that this may well have been JR's only chance to win the 500.

Tragic Upset for him!!!

Considering that the Panther team has finished 2nd at Indy for four straight years, it seems like they would be able to regularly put him in with a chance under the current formula. Those results probably aren't luck.

However, the new cars and engines for 2012 probably will jumble the pieces for everyone.

[E1pix]

Considering that the Panther team has finished 2nd at Indy for four straight years, it seems like they would be able to regularly put him in with a chance under the current formula. Those results probably aren't luck.

However, the new cars and engines for 2012 probably will jumble the pieces for everyone.

Yes, Panther is great at Indy and I really look forward to the new formula. Panther has done unbelievably well with I assume less budget than the Big 3 — and they gave a good friend his last great ride there to 5th place in '05. I hope the Series moves forward with the aero kit options! But you know how these things work, JR would be lucky to find himself one corner from 1st there again.

Sorry to stray a bit, but perhaps amusing.... I got a call from a friend a few years ago, referring me and telling me to look up the number and call a business named "Barnes....." I did, and John and I spoke for over half an hour. I called the friend back to ask, "Huh, What?" he said, "No, I meant Burns....." I made the sale but enjoyed John far more!

Edited by E1pix, 01 June 2011 - 21:39.

[scheivlak]

'Silent Sam' deserves some mention:

[thatguy0101]

The only upset is that it worked as well on the track as on paper.

[scheivlak]

The only upset is that it worked as well on the track as on paper.

Well, that's quite something if you know what has been produced in all those years that didn't work.....

[Bob Riebe]

Well, it was a bit last minute and low budget, but Cheever was easily better than practically everyone else in the field.

That sounds like another sad attempt to trash Cheever and the IRL, but here is part of what was written about the race: " Like Tom Sneva, Eddie Cheever Jr. never expected a jubilant finish in the 1998 Indy 500. There was some doubt he'd last the month of May.

Cheever arrived without a major sponsor, securing a deal with Rachel's Potato Chips at the 11th hour.

"There was a little cash involved, but it was mostly getting truck loads and truck loads of potato chips," said Cheever, who turned the sponsorship package into a lucrative (high six-figure) cash infusion by selling the chips to former boss John Menard, an IndyCar team owner who also owned a chain of Midwestern home-improvement stores.


Then, when the race started, Cheever nearly didn't make it past Lap 1.
"(J.J. Yley) ran into my gearbox in about the middle of Turn 1," said Cheever, who now lives in Indianapolis and Orlando. "Nine times out of 10 I crash."
But Cheever, who got sideways, didn't wreck. He did, however, fall to last place.

"After that, I started driving without any responsibility, not thinking about trying to finish," said Cheever, who still holds the fastest race lap ever recorded at 236.103 mph, set during the 1996 race.

But Cheever began passing drivers and by Lap 68 was in the lead. Then, Cheever heard a strange tone in chief mechanic Owen Snyder's voice.

"He sounded optimistic," Cheever said'

[thatguy0101]

Well, it was a bit last minute and low budget, but Cheever was easily better than practically everyone else in the field.

That sounds like another sad attempt to trash Cheever and the IRL

How can "easily better than practically everyone else in the field" possibly be considered demeaning of Cheever?

I would have used that to describe Senna and Foyt at their peaks.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yeah I don't consider Cheever an upset that year, just a ride that didn't have a lot of funding.

I'm not sure how we're meant to define upset really. Indy is generally upended in race results. So a chaotic/unexpected finish is almost, well, expected. I'd have said Sam Schmidt's team was a bit of an upset. Their qualifying results were not flukes. Tagliani and Bell ran up front all race, and I think Wheldon's car was initially prepared by Schmidt's team?

Though this year the 500 is the first oval race of the season so it was difficult to have a form guide going in.

[Flat Black 84]

I'd argue that comparatively rarely does a non-favorite win at Indy. And by favorite I mean somebody who either starts in the first two rows, has won the race before, or belongs to a powerhouse team. By those criteria, even Wheldon's victory qualifies as a mild upset at best.

[thatguy0101]

Rutherford in 74? The team had a history of building fast cars, but so did Lew Welch. No one thought Rutherford was a bad driver, but before his first win he was one of the regulars, like Gary B, Mosley, Vukovich, etc. He's the guy whose career panned out.

Edited by thatguy0101, 02 June 2011 - 16:54.

[Flat Black 84]

Rutherford in 74? The team had a history of building fast cars, but so did Lew Welch. No one thought Rutherford was a bad driver, but before his first win he was one of the regulars, like Gary B, Mosley, Vukovich, etc. He's the guy whose career panned out.

Good call. Because of his overall body of work we tend to think of Lone Star JR as a perpetual superstar when in fact he rather snuck up on folks back in '74.

[thatguy0101]

Good call. Because of his overall body of work we tend to think of Lone Star JR as a perpetual superstar when in fact he rather snuck up on folks back in '74.

The story I've heard is that Gary wanted to drive for Bignotti in 73, but Penske wouldn't release him. McLaren fired Johncock, and Gary told him that the Bignotti seat was open. And McLaren hired Rutherford for their car.

In 1972, who would have thought that group would have five wins and none by Gary?

Edited by thatguy0101, 02 June 2011 - 17:50.

[E1pix]

The story I've heard is that Gary wanted to drive for Bignotti in 73, but Penske wouldn't release him. McLaren fired Johncock, and Gary told him that the Bignotti seat was open. And McLaren hired Rutherford for their car.

In 1972, who would have thought that group would have five wins and none by Gary?

Man, does that ever bring up some memories!

I loved Gary Bettenhausen and he sure deserved a win! It was harder and harder each passing year to watch his "failed" interviews, I wanted to run down there and help him win one.

Problem was, I wasn't a mechanic....

[Bob Riebe]

Man, does that ever bring up some memories!

I loved Gary Bettenhausen and he sure deserved a win! It was harder and harder each passing year to watch his "failed" interviews, I wanted to run down there and help him win one.

Problem was, I wasn't a mechanic....

They did not win but I would rank the finishes of Bettenhausen and Sneva in 1980 as major upsets.
I like Rutherford but as I watched that race I was greatly hoping the Andretti jinx would move over to his car.

The entire last row that year finished in the top ten.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 02 June 2011 - 19:04.

[Jim Thurman]

Good call. Because of his overall body of work we tend to think of Lone Star JR as a perpetual superstar when in fact he rather snuck up on folks back in '74.

Rutherford won the pole in '73 and went on to wins at Michigan and Ontario, and had the front row start in 1970, so I hardly think he came out of left field.

That's the thing about "upset" winners at Indy. They truly were rare based on either the team, car or driver performance in prior races.

As Michael wrote once, it is hard to top Lou Meyer's first win (1928) as biggest surprise. He had a relief drive the year before and only a handful of races to his credit. Even newspapers of the time refer to the "darkhorse".

[Jim Thurman]

Though this year the 500 is the first oval race of the season so it was difficult to have a form guide going in.

For a looooong time, it was the first race of the season, which made it even more difficult. Prognosticators usually went with prior driver and car performance, and it usually panned out.

[thatguy0101]

Rutherford won the pole in '73 and went on to wins at Michigan and Ontario, and had the front row start in 1970, so I hardly think he came out of left field.

One of ten different winners in 1973, including five national champs. Both of Johnny's wins were half of twin race shows. The Ontario win was a qualifying heat against a short split field. The Michigan win was the second race, against a short field that had been depleted by the first race. His only other championship win had been in 65, before his big sprint car crash. He says he basically lost the years between the crash and qualiyfing the Patrick car on the front row in 70.

There were lots of customer Eagles and used McLarens available, and McLaren had been blowing engines to go as fast as they did. They blew up the engine on pole day in 74, which is why Johnny qualified on the second day.

Edited by thatguy0101, 02 June 2011 - 20:17.

[thatguy0101]

For a looooong time, it was the first race of the season, which made it even more difficult. Prognosticators usually went with prior driver and car performance, and it usually panned out.

And there was so little testing (and the fabrication was relatively slapdash by modern standards) that there really was a question of whether the fastest car would go the distance. Lots of fabricated, welded parts made by a few guys trying to do it all themselves.

Edited by thatguy0101, 02 June 2011 - 20:32.

[Michael Ferner]

Good call. Because of his overall body of work we tend to think of Lone Star JR as a perpetual superstar when in fact he rather snuck up on folks back in '74.

I quite like the nomination of JR as well. It's true, he didn't have much of a record before being hired by McLaren (a front-row start at Indy and a Sprint Car Championship - there are several names that spring to mind with similar stories and no happy end), and his later success tends to overshadow that fact, much like with Lou Meyer. But, McLaren was a top team, and Rutherford had shown that he deserved the ride in '73, so it's perhaps only a mild upset.

[thatguy0101]

I quite like the nomination of JR as well. It's true, he didn't have much of a record before being hired by McLaren (a front-row start at Indy and a Sprint Car Championship - there are several names that spring to mind with similar stories and no happy end), and his later success tends to overshadow that fact, much like with Lou Meyer. But, McLaren was a top team, and Rutherford had shown that he deserved the ride in '73, so it's perhaps only a mild upset.

They had all the tools, but I don't remember them winning any races before they hired Rutherford. IIRC, all of the McLaren car wins had been by Penske.

[Flat Black 84]

Rutherford won the pole in '73 and went on to wins at Michigan and Ontario, and had the front row start in 1970, so I hardly think he came out of left field.

I wouldn't say Rutherford came completely out of left field, but in his 11 Indy starts previous to 1973 his average finish was 21st. Hardly sterling stuff and certainly not auguring victory in '74 despite a good season in '73.