69 replies to this topic

[b3nster]

Has there ever been such a creature? I know of many Frenchmen, Italians, Britons, Austrians, Belgians, Brazilians and so on and so forth. Has there ever been a formula one driver from the Soviet Union, and if so, was he ever notable?

[RiverRunner]

Add a chinese citizen to that list if you will,Don

[Rob29]

Short answer -no. No Russians or Chinese.Only non- caucasians have been Japanese + "B.Bira" who was Thai.

[Boniver]

Viktor Maslow was the first Soviet who race F3000 in
1999 10 x NG and 2000 5 x start (Best 15°) and 5 x NG

Edgar Barth was the only DDR racer who had permission
to drive in Europa; he start also in
5 x in a GP

http://www.forix.com...0&r=5307035&c=0

But from 1951 to 1958 the Auto Moto Club Cental de U R S S
organized the "Championnat d'USSR" with F1 car 2,5l only for Soviet Pilots

On the race in 1958 there starts 5 cars
1° V. Petrov and A. Abramov with Torpedo


and in the was in the USSR
1907 Moscow - St Petersburg 1. Duray - Lorraine Dietrich
1908 St Petersburg - Moscow 1. Hemery - Benz
1909 St Petersburg - Riga - St P 1. x - Opel

[Rainer Nyberg]

If not any Formula One drivers, there seems to have been quite a healthy local series with single seater formula cars powered by a plethora of locally made production engines.

Any notable drivers I do no know about from the 1950-70s era.

Courtesy of my russian friends, some images have been supplied to me.


The first car is a MADI from 1973.


The second is a KVN-3000G (suggesting a 3litre engine).


The third is a GV22 from 1960.

Rainer

[David McKinney]

Love those pix, Rainer!

Expanding on an earlier post from Boniver: Edgar Barth was one of several DDR drivers permitted to race in the west: a number competed in the 1952 and 1953 German GPs, and others appeared in sportscar races in West Germany and France into the mid 50s.

In 1956 Barth was allowed out for another race at the Nürburging, and this time didn’t go back. By the time he was racing in F1 he would no doubt have had a West German racing licence.

[fines]

That's right, Edgar defected from his country!!!!

Another example would be motorcycle racer Ernst Degner (you know, the fast right before the slow right before the underpass in Suzuka...). He had a real chance of winning the 125cc WC of 1961, but instead committed Landesflucht just before the last race of the season. The ADMV, the sanctioning body of the GDR, successfully prevented his start in the Argentine and so the championship went to Australian Tom Phillis. Degner then went on to win the 50cc TT and WC the following year, then crashed at said corner at Suzuka during the 250cc Japanese GP which effectively ended his meteoric career.

[ry6]

Those photos of the Russian Formula Libre cars were fantastic.
I seem to remember the name of Viktor Galkin being a top Soviet driver back in the 60's?
Regards
Rob Young

[Rainer Nyberg]

Glad some of you liked the images.
Some of the cars are somewhat crude in appearance but some of them still looking purposeful. Here is a few more of them.


Not quite a Maserati 250F but a GA20 from 1957.


This a MADI seen at Kiev in 1979.


This Volga-powered Estonia 14 dates from 1968.


This Moskvitch G3 from 1961 is probably comparable with a Formula Junior.


Rainer

[sat]

Maybe some words abour soviet motorsport. First championship of SSSR in automobil races was held 11.9.1950. To 1954 it were one way (direction) public road races for 250-500 km. In 1955 first race on circuit near Minsk. From 1960 it were two races for championship and from 1966 was number of races variable (about 4). Federation for automobile sport was grounded in January 1961. First inernational race was held on "Nevskoe kolco" in Leningrad 27.8.1961

Categories
1950-1951
TC - 2500 ccm/ TC -1200 ccm
1952-1955
TC - "Pobeda" / TC - "Moskvic" - according to marks of cars
1956
Sports (and racing with handicap)/ TC - "Pobeda"/TC - "Moskvic"
1957
class B - tc "Moskvic"/ sport "Moskvic" (with handicap)
class V - sport "Pobeda"/sport "Volga" (with handicap)
class G - sport "GAZ" and "ZIL" / racing (with handicap)
1958
class A - sport 1500 ccm
class B - sport 3000 ccm
class V - sport +3000 ccm
class G - racing
1959
sport +2500 ccm
sport 2500 ccm
sport 1500 ccm
racing 1000 ccm
racing 2500 ccm (no champion declared for lack of entries)
1960
Formula 1 (2500 ccm)
Formula 3 (500 ccm)
Formula Junior (1360 ccm)
Sports +3000 cccm
Sports 3000 ccm
Sports 2300 ccm
Sports 1600 ccm
1961
Formula Libre
Formula Junior (1360 ccm)
Formula 3 (500 ccm)
Sports A (+2500 ccm)
Sports B (2500 ccm)
Sports V (2300 ccm)
Sports G (1600 ccm)
1962
Formula Libre
Formula Junior (1360 ccm)
Formula 3 (500 ccm)
Sports A (3000 ccm)
Sports B (2000 ccm)
Serial cars G
1963
Formula 1 (1500 ccm)
Formula 3 (500 ccm)
Formula 4 (Junior 1000 ccm)
Formula 5 (Libre)
Sports V
also vary classes of serial touring cars
1964-1965
Formula 1 (1500 ccm)
Formula 3 (1000 ccm)
Formula 4 (500 ccm)
Formula 5 (Libre)
Sports G
also touring
1966
Formula 1 (3000 ccm)
Formula 3 (1000 ccm)
Formula 4 (750 ccm)
also touring
1967
Formula 1 (3000 ccm)
Formula 3 (1000 ccm)
Sports (3000 ccm)
1968
Formula 3 (1000 ccm)
Formula 4 (350 cccm)
Formula 5 (2500 ccm)
touring
1969-1970
Formula 1 (3000 ccm)
Formula 3 (1000 ccm)
Formula 4 (350 ccm)
touring
1971
Formula 1 (3000 ccm)
Formula 2 (1600 ccm)
Formula 3 (1100 ccm)
Formula 4 (360 ccm)
touring
1972
as above but F3 (1300ccm)
1973
as above, but no F2
1974-1975
as 1972

So as you see it is not easy with soviet F1 pilots.

[fines]

Great sat, tell us more!

[Flicker]

As far as concerned post-war races...

... After the WWII in Soviet Union was taken (as war trophies ;-) 18(eighteen) A-U, a few Alfa-Romeos 6C-250CC, 8C-2900C, Jaguar CC100, BMW-328, Wanderer W25K and other sport cars. But, despite close attention of constructors and engineeres to those cars the results of their work remains only on papers and had no influence on real soviet cars. One of the sad reasons for that was the unsuccesful record breaking attempt, organized in the summer of 1948 near town Gorky (today - Nizhnij Novgorod). The streamlined Auto-Union crashed havily during the trial and killed 18 people. In december 1948 with the special decree Soviet goverment banned the foreighn technick from all auto & moto competions. The decision was proved by the stupid and demagogical idea about the nessesity of the development our own (read - soviet) racing cars, and not used the allien 'capitalist' experience.

The first USSR championship was held near Moscow in the beginning of August 1950 on the Moskow-Minsk highway. There was only one 300-kms race (so called "linen race": 150-km in one way and forth) in which 45 cars was entered (43 participated). The next year also 84-kms auto-cross was included in national championship programme.

(BTW, before the first official Soviet ch. there are a lot of local championships (in Moscow, Leningrad, Minsk (Belorussia), Estonia, Latvia, etc.)

1950 USSR ch.
(up to 2500cc)
1. V.Metelev-V.Rodionov (Gorkij) Pobeda-Sport
2. N.Sorokin-A.Shalashov (Gorkij) Pobeda
3. K.Nikishin - E.Beliakov (Gorkij) Pobeda
(up to 1200cc)
1. Givartovskij-A.Kokorev (Moscow) Moskvich-403 E(Exsperimental)424
2. M.Tourkov-A.Glazov (Moscow) Moskvich-400
3. N.Kachigin-N.Shkaldanov (Moscow) Moskvich-403-E424


First USSR Champ Mikhail Metelev


another 1950 champions - Lev Givartovskij and his mechanic Kokorev


The same as Metelev's winning car - Pobeda-Sport. Only three cars were built.


more powerful 1951 version. Max speed approx. 162 km/h.

About russian Automobile federation: from october of 1956 CAMK (Central Auto-Motor Club of USSR), ruled by military organisation DOSAAF (today ROSTO) was acclaimed as the full member of F.I.A. Till today the CAMK are one of the key persons in Russian motorsport. But in Soviet times the Automobile Federation of USSR (FAS) was only the executive representative of the weel of CAMK-DOSAAF (read - Soviet Army).

... about Soviet F1-cars (simply don't forget that this is so-called F1 cars). So... there are NO soviet F1 driver till today.

P.S. on Rainer's photo (naturally from the L.Shugurov book about soviet autosport) there is the 1958 USSR champion (class "G" - "gonochnije", i.e. racing cars of all types with handicap) Valery Shakhverdov at the wheel of self-built GA-22 (engine GAZ-21 "Volga" http://w1.859.telia....A22-1960-02.jpg

P.P.S. For those who are more curious you can see a bit more results (champions of the USSR) here: http://www.geocities...v/chUSSR-1.html
(sorry... now only in Russian)

[Falcadore]

This question came up once in the Atlas F1 FAQ. At the time I suggested the only Russian to have ever raced in Formula One was the Russian emmigrant Bill Vukovich Jr who race in several of the Indianapolis 500's in the 50's F1 era of the Indy 500. He won 53 & 54 before being killed while leading in 1955. But he was for all intents and purposes American by this point, but he was the nearest thing to a Russian Formula One pilot.

yours
Mark Jones

[Flicker]

Falcadore!
Hmm, Vukovich, you say...
But he was born in 1918 in California, Fresno... What can You say for that?
And to be exactly... he was not russian by his nationality...
The more interesting person IMHO was Boris Ivanovsky - 1929 24h Spa winner (Alfa) and 2nd in LeMans 1931 (Merc SSK).

[Falcadore]

In which case the refferring text I had was in error. Which is strange as Joe Saward isn't usually wrong about such things.

[fines]

My info on Vuky is that he was born in Alameda, CA, lived in Fresno though and was known as the "Fresno Flash" as well as the "Mad Russian", whereas in fact he was the son of Armenian immigrants. His brother (?), Eli Vukovich also raced midgets.

[Flicker]

It's the usual thing (about dates and places of birth)...

Here http://www.motorspor...kovich_main.htm
they think that Billy was born in 1919, but usualy his date of birth looks smth like this: 13th of December, 1918.


FORIX has the same date too...

[fines]

Yep, Dec 13, 1918!

[sat]

I understand that the question is about SOVIET F1 pilot. In another situation in 2.6.1913 was held GP of St. Peterburg
won by Suvorin on Benz, and prince Trubetskoy was also Russian. So..?

[Flicker]

So... the Question is closed: there is no such creature - Soviet F1 pilot...

P.S. BTW, there was no such race in 1913 - GP of St.Petersburg. Only prelude for it and the first russian road circle race. Real "Grand Prix of St.Petersburg" (better to say GP of St.Petersburg Automobile Club) was held the next - May 18(old style), 1914 year. And the winner was Willi Schoell from Germany on 15-liter 150 h.p. Benz. (7 years earlier than Italian GP, 12 - than German and Britain, 15 - Monte-Carlo)
[p][Edited by Flicker on 01-15-2001]

[TonyKaye]

Thanks Rainer, Sat and Flicker. This has become a really interesting thread. Now that we have eliminated the possibility of a genuine Russian F1 driver I can't wait for more information about the various Soviet championships, races, cars and drivers.
I've always been intrigued by the 'Grand Master' system that they attempted to apply to Russian motor racing. What can you tell us about that. Then there were the various Karkov and Svezda record cars driven by Nikitin , Lorent and others. Did they set genuine records; the Western press was very sceptical at the time.
Whatever you choose to divulge will be new information to virtually all of us.

[fines]

Originally posted by Don Capps
Ah, the Vukovich family wasn't even Russian -- they were from the Ukraine...;)

Now I've got three versions: Armenia, Yugoslavia and now... Ukraine? What's your source, Don?

[bobbo]

Sometime ago, therewas a thread looking at Russian F1 drivers, apparently looking at "recent" era (1965 or so to the present). If one looks further back, one VERY famous Russian crops up: Zora Arkus-Duntov. IIRC, he ran several GP races in the late '40s and possibly early '50s.

Any follow up from you other "Old Timers?"

Bobbo

[Flicker]

If to be exact... he was not russian by his nationality!

[bobbo]

Flicker:

True, he ws a naturalized U. S. Citizen, I believe, but apparently he was born in Russia and was a refugee (emigre'??) from the Communist coup/revolution and is listed in the few sites I have found as a Russian.

I would be willing to suggest that there is a lot of confusion about persons who fled Russia in that era.

On another driver, I also found a "prince Igor Tubosky (??)" listed in several 1946 - 1949 races as Russian.

Bobbo

" 'Curiouser and Curiouser,' said Alice . . ."

-- L. Carroll

[Flicker]

Look through this thread:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=14335

Trubetskoy was russian prince ( in Russian). Almost became the winner of Le Mans, but...

[bobbo]

Flicker:

Thanks!!!!!

THAT was the thread I was hunting!!!!!!!! Must be brain dead today:blush:

Thanks again!!

Bobbo

[Alexey Rogachev]

As The Nostalgia Forum Archive has been closed down, I use this opportunity to make a bit more clear a question of Bill Vukovich's country of origin (and to 'resurrect' this thread, too ;) ). Looking through the programme of the 1974 USSR touring cars championship, I found the following entry: S. Vukovich from Odessa. Of course, it isn't a convincing proof, but it is anyway a fact arguing for Ukraine.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg


A GV22 from 1960.


This a MADI seen at Kiev in 1979.

Fascinating stuff, Rainer, and a real eye-opener for me!

The GV22 looks really purposeful, while the lower photo is quite telling in that there is such a disparity between the machinery on the grid. The chap in the MADI must have been 'well connected' to have acquired slicks (or just wider tyres) never mind wings, and it seems that most, if not all, the drivers are wearing open-faced helmets - in 1979!

[D-Type]

On the Chinese front, although not F1 there have been some useful performances by ethnic Chinese in the Macau, Malaysian and Singapore races.

[Alexey Rogachev]

Stuart, this is not GV 22, but GA 22 - see Flicker's reply above.

The MADI (the full name of this car is Estonia MADI 02) was designed in Moscow Auto & Road Institute (MADI in Russian) in the late 70s, and only one car was built. At that time, Estonias 18 (car #75) and 19 (the car in the right) mainly raced in Soviet F3 & F. Easter - quite outdated machinery. So there was a couple of attempts to modify these cars, and Estonia MADI 02 was one of these modified single-seaters, a 'rara avis' among numerous factory-bulit Estonias. The first factory-built Estonia equipped with both front & rear wings was 20, which appeared in 1980 (although the very first Soviet single-seater with wings was Leningrad 2 of 1971!). As for open-faced helmets - yes, some racing drivers in the USSR weared them until the early 80s...

'The chap in the MADI' is probably Mark Balezin, the works MADI driver.

[bretonbanquet]

It seems the best chance at the moment for a Russian F1 driver is Minardi's Sergei Zlobin - if he can come up with the cash we could see him perhaps at a Friday test session. Given that there has never been a Russian / Soviet F1 driver, there must be major kudos in it for potential sponsors etc.

[Muzza]

Dear Fellows,


I do not want to divert this thread, but seeing above questions about the real name of Bill Vukovich, I believe he was named William Vucerovich (no middle name) and that his family adopted the form Vukovich because it was easier to be pronounced (this would not be by any means unique; indeed, it was rather common for immigrant families to have their names "adapted/softened" when immigrating to the United States and other American countries). Also, it seems that the family had immigrated from Yugoslavia.

Jim Thurman, working independently, found similar conclusions which he expressed in this post.

Any comments or corrections will be appreciated.


Muzza

[theunions]

Originally posted by Rob29
Short answer -no. No Russians or Chinese.Only non- caucasians have been Japanese + "B.Bira" who was Thai.

Of course you can now add Alex Yoong...I assume his parents or grandparents emigrated from China to Malaysia?

[Alexey Rogachev]

Don't forget Jorge de Bagration - http://f1rejects.com.../biography.html . Not Soviet, not even Russian, with Spanish nationality, and... never actually took part in F1 WDC GP! But his story is very interesting...

[dmj]

Last time we discussed Bill Vukovich' ancestry was in this thread. So it seems to me that most contemporary sources were aware of his Slovenian origin. I still do not consider it as a definitive answer, of course, but it seems nearest to truth so far. Vukovich is fairly common family name in quite a few Slavic countries, by the way...

[indyricefan13]

Originally posted by b3nster
Has there ever been such a creature? I know of many Frenchmen, Italians, Britons, Austrians, Belgians, Brazilians and so on and so forth. Has there ever been a formula one driver from the Soviet Union, and if so, was he ever notable?

I don't want to offend anyone and I don't mean to be too political on a racing forum but there is no such nationality as a Soviet. The Soviet nationality was forced upon all the nations of the so called Soviet Union (perhbaps with the exception of the Russian). So I think you should specify: Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian, etc.

[Alexey Rogachev]

indyricefan, let us be real historians, who abstract their minds from political and national questions and who reckon the historic facts only. Now, Russia, Ukraine, Estonia etc. are independent states, where motorsport goes in different ways. But until 1992, the state called Soviet Union existed, which united fifteen republics. Discussing, for instance, the participation of the Moskvich team in London-Mexico marathon rally, we consider all its drivers to be the same nationality, in spite of that one of them was from Moscow, the second from Lvov, the third from Vilnius, and the fourth from Tallinn. I hope it would be right to say that from the point of view of Western motorsport historians it made no difference, as these drivers were the members of the same team that represented a single state, not the number of republics. And we can find more examples in motorsport history...

[indyricefan13]

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
indyricefan, let us be real historians, who abstract their minds from political and national questions and who reckon the historic facts only. Now, Russia, Ukraine, Estonia etc. are independent states, where motorsport goes in different ways. But until 1992, the state called Soviet Union existed, which united fifteen republics. Discussing, for instance, the participation of the Moskvich team in London-Mexico marathon rally, we consider all its drivers to be the same nationality, in spite of that one of them was from Moscow, the second from Lvov, the third from Vilnius, and the fourth from Tallinn. I hope it would be right to say that from the point of view of Western motorsport historians it made no difference, as these drivers were the members of the same team that represented a single state, not the number of republics. And we can find more examples in motorsport history...

I understand but being a Ukrainian I don't believe that the Soviet times were the best times in the history of Ukraine and I don't believe that the Russian nation, the Ukrainian nation, the Estonian nation are one and the same. Anyway, let's stop at that.
By the way, was one of the Moskvich team really from Lviv. That's my hometown. I am an Indy car racing fan and not really into the history of racing in the USSR. When did it take place and who was this driver from Lviv?

[indyricefan13]

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
indyricefan, let us be real historians, who abstract their minds from political and national questions and who reckon the historic facts only. Now, Russia, Ukraine, Estonia etc. are independent states, where motorsport goes in different ways. But until 1992, the state called Soviet Union existed, which united fifteen republics. Discussing, for instance, the participation of the Moskvich team in London-Mexico marathon rally, we consider all its drivers to be the same nationality, in spite of that one of them was from Moscow, the second from Lvov, the third from Vilnius, and the fourth from Tallinn. I hope it would be right to say that from the point of view of Western motorsport historians it made no difference, as these drivers were the members of the same team that represented a single state, not the number of republics. And we can find more examples in motorsport history...

I understand but being a Ukrainian I don't believe that the Soviet times were the best times in the history of Ukraine and I don't believe that the Russian nation, the Ukrainian nation, the Estonian nation are one and the same. Anyway, let's stop at that.
By the way, was one of the drivers on the Moskvich team really from Lviv. That's my hometown! I am an Indy car racing fan and not really into the history of racing in the USSR (shame on me!). When did it take place and who was this driver from Lviv?

[Alexey Rogachev]

That was Eduard Bazhenov, please look at this: http://www.sovietral...u/lm-70-inf.htm (click on the very left thumbnail in the first row).

[Rob29]

Originally posted by indyricefan13


I understand but being a Ukrainian I don't believe that the Soviet times were the best times in the history of Ukraine and I don't believe that the Russian nation, the Ukrainian nation, the Estonian nation are one and the same. Anyway, let's stop at that.
By the way, was one of the drivers on the Moskvich team really from Lviv. That's my hometown! I am an Indy car racing fan and not really into the history of racing in the USSR (shame on me!). When did it take place and who was this driver from Lviv?

Liviv? Is that the same place spelt as Lvov or Lwow,and actually in POLAND before WW2? If so do you have any info,photos? of Grand Prix held there 1930-33?

[indyricefan13]

Originally posted by Rob29
Liviv? Is that the same place spelt as Lvov or Lwow,and actually in POLAND before WW2? If so do you have any info,photos? of Grand Prix held there 1930-33?

Yes, it is!
Lviv is Ukrainian spelling
Lwow - Polish
Lvov- Russian

Yes, you are correct Lviv and the rest of western Ukraine were part of Poland before WWII and part of the Austro-Hungarian empire before that. A Grand Prix was held here back in the 30s. I once read a very interesting article in a local news paper about that race but unfortunately I have lost the newspaper by now and don't remember much of what was said there.
I also tried to do some research but no libraries or museums have any information about that race. I will try to do some more research. Maybe there is something on the Ukrainian Internet. Who knows? But at this point I do not have any real information.

[anjakub]

See: http://forums.atlasf...&highlight=lwow
and http://forums.atlasf...&highlight=lwow

[indyricefan13]

Originally posted by anjakub
See: http://forums.atlasf...&highlight=lwow
and http://forums.atlasf...&highlight=lwow

Hey, thanks a million for that! I have lived in Lviv all my life and my parents have lived here all their lives. But although I am a huge fan of auto racing history my knowledge is pretty limited to America Indy car racing and the Indy 500. So I didn't really know much details. I am going to go downtown tomorrow and examine the course. The names of the streets are different nowadays but nonetheless it will be interesting. I can already recognize Stryjska Street. It is still called like that to this very day.
By the way, have you ever been to Lviv? You seems to be a person really interested in auto racing in this part of the world. We could meet some day.
Another thing that really interests me was whether there was any racing in other Ukrainian cities. There certainly must have been something in Kyiv. Need to do some research.
greetings from Ukraine's only Indy car fan,
ricefan13

[anjakub]

Lwow's race track in 30's : Pelczynska (now Witowskoho) - Stryjska - Kadecka (Hvardijska).

Ricefan, I live in Warsaw and I never was in Lwow, but maybe in near future. The history of The Lwow GP I interested since long time.

[indyricefan13]

Originally posted by anjakub
Lwow's race track in 30's : Pelczynska (now Witowskoho) - Stryjska - Kadecka (Hvardijska).

Ricefan, I live in Warsaw and I never was in Lwow, but maybe in near future. The history of The Lwow GP I interested since long time.

Thanks for the street names. Now I know where it really is. The funny thing is that some time ago we were driving down Witowskoho and I said to a friend of mine: Wouldn't it be great to have a racetrack here. I knew about the Lviv GP but I never had the slightest idea that it was held in that part of town.
Warsaw is a nice town. Kind of different from Lviv but very nice. I have been to Warsaw a few times and really enjoyed it. Maybe it is because I can speak Polish. On the other hand I didn't enjoy Budapest although I can't say that it isn't nice. I just can't speak Hungarian.

[indyricefan13]

Originally posted by anjakub
Lwow's race track in 30's : Pelczynska (now Witowskoho) - Stryjska - Kadecka (Hvardijska).

Ricefan, I live in Warsaw and I never was in Lwow, but maybe in near future. The history of The Lwow GP I interested since long time.

By the way, where can I find full results of all the Grand Prixs in Lwow? If you have them would you be kind enough to post them?

[EvDelft]

Well, again an old thread I want to kick up, because I think I found something...

About a Soviet driver in Formula 1, assuming F1 is more then just the Championship, I found one I think.
In 1949 Yuri Sidorov participated (and finished) the Tchecovacian GP. So far one Soviet F1-driver.

About the Chinese one, if you count in testdrivers, we have had one, too... Ho Pin Tung.
Tung is born a Dutchman but also has the Chinese nationality, and he races (GP2 Asia, I think) under the Chinese flag. He also has been testdriver for Williams F1, in 2007??

So tell me if you agree on this.;)

[sat]

In 1949 Yuri Sidorov participated (and finished) the Tchecovacian GP. So far one Soviet F1-driver.


What source have you for this?