11 replies to this topic

[Mike Summers]

Does anyone know if archives of detailed entry information might still exist for USRRC/CSCC races, in particular the 1963 LA Times race at Riverside. Just point me in the right direction...........

Mike S

[RA Historian]

63 Riverside Times GP, as well as the Laguna Seca event, were both USAC races, not SCCA, USRRC, or CSCC. That rules out some of the usual sources, as USAC's records of its sports car days are sketchy indeed. Numerous places, web sites, books, magazines, etc., have the starting grid, but the entry list is another matter. I think that you are looking in the right place, though, as there is bound to be someone on this forum who has such a list in their library and who would likely be quite happy to fax or scan and send to you. There are several west coast historians on this site, and I imagine they have it.

One other source that comes immediately to mind is Tam McPartland; try e mailing him through Tam's Old Race Car site.

Of course, there is always the LA Times archives; I recall that their papers were packed with info for weeks ahead of their races.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 18 March 2011 - 23:41.

[Mike Summers]

So, was the actual sanctioning body USAC?? Digging through the net, the race was identified as USRRC/CSCC. I assume that CSCC was California Sports Car Club.......was a bit before my I got intersted in cars. Does USAC still exist in any form?? Who would have records, if any remain. I am looking for chassis numbers of cars, so I doubt if newpaper articles will help.

Mike

[Red Socks]

So, was the actual sanctioning body USAC?? Digging through the net, the race was identified as USRRC/CSCC. I assume that CSCC was California Sports Car Club.......was a bit before my I got intersted in cars. Does USAC still exist in any form?? Who would have records, if any remain. I am looking for chassis numbers of cars, so I doubt if newpaper articles will help.

Mike

I think you can rely on the fact that the orgainisers did not keep any chassis number records for these races. Indeed why would they, every car had a number on the front and side so why would an organiser have any interest on a number stamped on a plate some where in the bowels of the car.
Tragedy now but in the context of the time entirely understandable.

[Allen Brown]

There is a common misunderstanding that chassis numbers are available in original entry lists. They aren't - except in a tiny handful of exceedingly rare cases.

I blame websites like racingsportscars.com and oldracingcars.com which publish chassis numbers in their race results and make it look like they came from original published material.

Chassis numbers have to be derived from other sources, such as manufacturers' production records, adverts, occasional chassis plate observations, documentation held by current owners and from mentions in reports of previous owners. Organisers hardly ever recorded chassis numbers and even where they did, the records have not in most cases been preserved. The best cases are at the Indy 500 (but not as early as 1963) and Le Mans.

[Red Socks]

I blame websites like racingsportscars.com and oldracingcars.com which publish chassis numbers in their race results and make it look like they came from original published material.

Indeed they have a lot to answer for !!

[RA Historian]

So, was the actual sanctioning body USAC?? Digging through the net, the race was identified as USRRC/CSCC. I assume that CSCC was California Sports Car Club.......was a bit before my I got intersted in cars. Does USAC still exist in any form??

Yes, those two races in October, 1963, were indeed sanctioned by USAC. They were all that remained of the USAC Road Racing Division, which ran a series from 1958-1962 inclusive. They no longer sanctioned a series in 1963, but did the occasional individual event. These two races switched their sanctioning body affiliation to SCCA in 1964.

While the SCCA did sanction the Riverside and Laguna Seca pro events for many years starting in 1964, these races were never part of the USRRC. That was a separate pro series organized by the SCCA starting in 1963. Riverside and Laguna did have events in that series, but those races were held early in the year and were quite separate from the big fall events. The fall events in question became part of the Can Am series starting in 1966.

The misidentification you cite is not a rarity, unfortunately. It is surprising and disturbing how many races are identified both in print and on the web as being part of the USRRC, when in fact they never were. I do not understand why that is such a common error.

CSCC was the California Sports Car Club, or Cal Club. It was a major force in west coast sports car racing in the 1950s and early 1960s. It merged into the SCCA sometime in the early 1960s, become the CSCC region of the SCCA, a situation which continues to this day.

Yes, USAC is still around, sanctioning many events, all of a minor nature. Most active in sprint cars and midgets. Once the major professional power in US racing, but reduced in the past few decades to being mainly a bit player. I know that there are USAC fans out there who will dispute this, but really, they have not sanctioned any major event in years.

As far as chassis numbers, good luck. As has been pointed out above, there really is no source that has the comprehensive list that you are seeking. Best one can do is a LOT of research, the web, various books on marques, etc. A laborious process to be sure, but back in the day chassis numbers simply were not important and nobody bothered with them. Never in print, and about the only reason they were even used was if the car was going to be imported or exported.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 19 March 2011 - 14:24.

[raceannouncer2003]

Yes, those two races in October, 1963, were indeed sanctioned by USAC. They were all that remained of the USAC Road Racing Division, which ran a series from 1958-1962 inclusive. They no longer sanctioned a series in 1963, but did the occasional individual event. These two races switched their sanctioning body affiliation to SCCA in 1964.

Yes, not USRRC for sure.

However, in 1963, Sports Car Graphic's International Calendar of Racing listed the September Pacific Raceways (Kent) and October Riverside races as USAC, and the October Laguna Seca race as SCCA. The Laguna Seca program says: "Welcome to the fourth annual Monterey Pacific Grand Prix sponsored by the Sports Car Racing Association of the Monterey Peninsula (SCRAMP) with the co-operation of the San Francisco Examiner. A full international race sanctioned by the FIA and Sports Car Club of America, and conducted by the SCCA's San Francisco Region." No mention of USAC.

Which chassis number are you looking for, Mike? The Monise 23B?

Vince H.

[Red Socks]

Yes, not USRRC for sure.

However, in 1963, Sports Car Graphic's International Calendar of Racing listed the September Pacific Raceways (Kent) and October Riverside races as USAC, and the October Laguna Seca race as SCCA. The Laguna Seca program says: "Welcome to the fourth annual Monterey Pacific Grand Prix sponsored by the Sports Car Racing Association of the Monterey Peninsula (SCRAMP) with the co-operation of the San Francisco Examiner. A full international race sanctioned by the FIA and Sports Car Club of America, and conducted by the SCCA's San Francisco Region." No mention of USAC.

Which chassis number are you looking for, Mike? The Monise 23B?

Vince H.

But in the FIA listing from 1963-my source the RAC Motor Sports Yearbook 1963- in the case of Pacific Raceways, Riverside and Laguna Seca the applicant and licencee in each case is USAC Box 1555 Indianapolis 6.

[teegeefla]

I did some digging through my collection of old Competition Press issues as well as Gus Vignolle’s Motor Racing tabloid and here is the best I can decipher about the USAC or SCCA sanction question.

When the racing schedules for 1963 were first posted, the Pacific Grand Prix at Laguna Seca was originally declared a USAC sanctioned race, but during early 1963 the race organizers SCRAMP and the race sponsor The Herald Examiner newspaper were fighting over the conduct of the event. They eventually parted ways in March and SCRAMP sought sanctioning alignment with SCCA.

In May 1963, ACCUS awarded the race listing on the FIA calendar to USAC as sanctioning body and the newspaper as the event organizer, but that proved to be a pyrrhic victory. The newspaper explored the idea of holding the race at Vaca Valley Raceway 75 miles east of San Francisco, but that was aborted due to the fact that Vaca Valley had not held the prescribed prior major race. Therefore, SCRAMP and the Herald Examiner had to try to sort out things between themselves if there was to be a race at Laguna. Since SCRAMP was in a new multi-year partnership with SCCA for all events at Laguna Seca, the power pendulum swung their way.

By mid-August 1963, those two parties finally reached a settlement, with SCRAMP the apparent winner and the race was approved by ACCUS as an SCCA sanction. So both USAC and SCCA were, at some time in 1963, the sanctioning body of the Pacific Grand Prix, with the SCCA the ultimate sanction by race time.

[Mike Summers]

Vince, tried sending you a PM, your mailbox is full

Mike S

[raceannouncer2003]

Vince, tried sending you a PM, your mailbox is full

Mike S

Mike,

My mailbox is not (quite) full now!

Vince H.