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Dear me, top flight racing?


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#101 knickerbrook

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 16:19

Shame that while saving costs on electrics, stock engines etc the series organisers now only want two man teams in BSB, there by depriving us of "privateer" one man/machine teams...crazy!! sorry Stuart if you read this, not the way to go. :well:

I totally agree with Graham. Why price out lower-funded entrants by ruling that they run two riders? What's the rationale?
A closed shop for the privileged few :down: - no thanks!


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#102 fil2.8

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 18:03

I totally agree with Graham. Why price out lower-funded entrants by ruling that they run two riders? What's the rationale?
A closed shop for the privileged few :down: - no thanks!



Exactly , another well thought move :rolleyes: ...................................not :confused: , what's the matter with these idiots ???


#103 RC162

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 18:35


Another way of looking at this is if a pair of single rider teams get together and although each bike would have a different livery, they would share a lot of the costs and make the limited money around go a bit further. There were and are lots of club lads who share transport and the such like who ride against each other and for different sponsors. I'm sure this could work at a higher level if they wanted it too.

#104 bsracer

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 15:57

for gresini to hire a satellite honda in 2011 cost ..........£3.7 MILLION for one bike, to put that into perspective niall mackenzie used to do a whole season in the 90s on the roc yamahas for around £300,000 and a roc yamaha cost 90,000 in 1993. having said that in the pursuit of the ultimate tractor honda could supply a gearbox for your satellite 4 stroke that gives you 0.3 of a second and it only costs £520,000.


I can't wait to tell the wife next time she bitches about how much I spend/spent on my Bridgestone how much we're saving!


paul

#105 mfd

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 21:37

Exactly , another well thought move :rolleyes: ...................................not :confused: , what's the matter with these idiots ???

There's an interesting interview with Jerry Burgess in this weeks GP Week where he criticises the many changes both present & past - after GP 500cc. Openly mentioning the deliberate killing off of the 2-stroke & the lack of openings for new talent in comparison with the old days. He's done well whatever the situation, but it's interesting that he recalls & comments.

#106 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 21:42

But is that because of rules or because there aren't a bucket of tobacco companies handing out checks like they were takeaway menus?

#107 mfd

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 22:10

But is that because of rules or because there aren't a bucket of tobacco companies handing out checks like they were takeaway menus?

Nothing to do with tobacco companies.

#108 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 23:23

Sure it does. There is very little sponsorship in MotoGP and a lot of it is built around a rider. During the late 80s and 90s tobacco greased the career progression of many riders and drivers. At one point a single tobacco company was completely paying for four Yamahas in MotoGP.

#109 mfd

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 23:39

Sure it does. There is very little sponsorship in MotoGP and a lot of it is built around a rider. During the late 80s and 90s tobacco greased the career progression of many riders and drivers. At one point a single tobacco company was completely paying for four Yamahas in MotoGP.

What Burgess was referring to was the availability of affordable, competitive machinery to aspirants.

#110 exclubracer

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 00:20

What Burgess was referring to was the availability of affordable, competitive machinery to aspirants.

Mike would that be the new improved Moto2 or Moto(X)3 classes that are part of the progression of the sport?

Where's the irony smiley? :cat:

#111 mfd

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 00:22

Mike would that be the new improved Moto2 or Moto(X)3 classes that are part of the progression of the sport?
Where's the irony smiley? :cat:


:lol: minus 30 years

Edited by mfd, 22 November 2011 - 00:23.


#112 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 00:24

What Burgess was referring to was the availability of affordable, competitive machinery to aspirants.


Sure costs are through the roof, but that's true in any series. Including something 'simple' like NASCAR. But 10 years ago in CART and MotoGP you had tobacco sponsors opening the door for people to get in and afford good equipment.

#113 rd500

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 09:49

There's an interesting interview with Jerry Burgess in this weeks GP Week where he criticises the many changes both present & past - after GP 500cc. Openly mentioning the deliberate killing off of the 2-stroke & the lack of openings for new talent in comparison with the old days. He's done well whatever the situation, but it's interesting that he recalls & comments.


hi, if this is on the web please could you put a link on as it looks like a good read. cheers


#114 mfd

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:05

hi, if this is on the web please could you put a link on as it looks like a good read. cheers

http://mag.gpweek.com/


#115 rd500

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:42

thanks :up:

#116 mfd

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:46

thanks :up:

No problem! The content isn't something that would interest many here but for the Burgess article where (imo) he steps outside the guidelines to reflect on the way it was...

#117 bsracer

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 14:44

Seems like Monster and Red Bull have more than enough $$$ to throw around. Hell it seems like Red Bull sponsors everything!

paul

#118 ditechiapacetec

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 14:44

Seems like Monster and Red Bull have more than enough $$$ to throw around. Hell it seems like Red Bull sponsors everything!

paul




The Pre-evaluation form and the Inscription form are on line on the CCRT Continental Championship Race Tech website : :clap:

http://continentalch....com/index.html



#119 rd500

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 15:11

a nice qoute from loris

Capirossi wears a look of regret when he momentarily considers the bikes of yesteryear. "The 500s were more special for me. Only about three or four guys could ride them near the limit. They were very, very difficult to ride fast, and if you made only a small mistake, you would crash. The four-strokes are a lot more forgiving and easier to ride, and there are about ten guys who can ride them near the limit. Even when they have even more horsepower they will always be easier to ride because the power is so much better spread and the delivery more linear".



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#120 RVF400

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 18:38

Sure the old two strokes were hard to ride, just keep in mind how primitive the
15 year old two strokes electronic package was compared to today's MGP 4 strokes.
I would be willing to bet that today's electronic technology could tame the
old two strokes and give them a wide linear power band.

Edited by RVF400, 05 December 2011 - 20:37.


#121 joeninety

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 19:47

Quote Capirossi. The four-strokes are a lot more forgiving and easier to ride, and there are about ten guys who can ride them near the limit. Even when they have even more horsepower they will always be easier to ride because the power is so much better spread and the delivery more linear".


That's why they seem to spend so much time on their arses then !
Tut Tut...


#122 chunder27

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 22:04

I think the riders recently spend more time on their bums because of the tyres and not the bikes.

You read comments from riders who only talk about how the tyres are supposed to work and how the engineers are redeigning bikes to make the tyres work, so very sad and very, very Bridhestone I am afraid, its exactly what they did with Ferrari in F1.

Long live the tyre war, please Micehlin or Dunlop, come back!!

#123 joeninety

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 22:58

Rubbish

I think the riders recently spend more time on their bums because of the tyres and not the bikes.

You read comments from riders who only talk about how the tyres are supposed to work and how the engineers are redeigning bikes to make the tyres work, so very sad and very, very Bridhestone I am afraid, its exactly what they did with Ferrari in F1.

Long live the tyre war, please Micehlin or Dunlop, come back!!



#124 RVF400

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 23:06

You read comments from riders who only talk about how the tyres are supposed to work


Any of today's riders complaining about tires need to talk to Roberts Lawson Gardner Rainey Schwantz,
They never raced with a tire that could post a fastest lap after the 8th lap.
Today's tires can put down a race lap record on any of the last 3 laps. Today's tires are amazing.

#125 rd500

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 09:55

the one exception to that i can think of would be austria 1990 when schwantz set the fastest lap on the last lap, the new michelin slicks that appeared in 90 were way above what was about before [called 1098 compound IIRC]

this led to the highside becoming more violent with many riders going through the screen of the bikes and wayne rainey blamed this sudden snapping of this tyre for his mashed up fingers in germany qualifying, of course the dunlops of that era were far more slideable but as later years showed only worked really well on some circuits.

after 90 when michelin pulled out of full factory input for the 91 season and the honda team were using production michelins until they decided to come back into it when the title was slipping away.

ron haslam said after he tested leons wsb at jerez a while ago that he had to unlearn how to ride a motorcycle and pin the throttle at the apex and let the bike do the rest to the exit, so mabye the reason the horrendous crash rate of modern motorcycle racing is down to the fact that the riders use large throttle openings when this normally could not be sustained?

#126 lesgoose

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 12:25

One thing is for sure we wont see a private entry winning the top championship again with the costs now involved.Its all about money now just as in F1 imagine what the companys have to do to get the tyres they make as the only ones used and be able to then advertise xyz tyres as used by top riders/drivers of.Lets face facts Branding is probably the biggest selling thing in the west if it aint got xyz brand on it its not good enough.Let them market it for TV,advertising,branding I wont be going much sooner go to a classic meet as more races and many different makes and the fact its far more value for money.

#127 picblanc

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 13:43

One thing is for sure we wont see a private entry winning the top championship again with the costs now involved.Its all about money now just as in F1 imagine what the companys have to do to get the tyres they make as the only ones used and be able to then advertise xyz tyres as used by top riders/drivers of.Lets face facts Branding is probably the biggest selling thing in the west if it aint got xyz brand on it its not good enough.Let them market it for TV,advertising,branding I wont be going much sooner go to a classic meet as more races and many different makes and the fact its far more value for money.



Cant argue with that, but we are old(ish) a 20/30 something may well feel differently? :|

#128 terryshep

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 17:39

the one exception to that i can think of would be austria 1990 when schwantz set the fastest lap on the last lap, the new michelin slicks that appeared in 90 were way above what was about before [called 1098 compound IIRC]

this led to the highside becoming more violent with many riders going through the screen of the bikes and wayne rainey blamed this sudden snapping of this tyre for his mashed up fingers in germany qualifying, of course the dunlops of that era were far more slideable but as later years showed only worked really well on some circuits.

after 90 when michelin pulled out of full factory input for the 91 season and the honda team were using production michelins until they decided to come back into it when the title was slipping away.

ron haslam said after he tested leons wsb at jerez a while ago that he had to unlearn how to ride a motorcycle and pin the throttle at the apex and let the bike do the rest to the exit, so mabye the reason the horrendous crash rate of modern motorcycle racing is down to the fact that the riders use large throttle openings when this normally could not be sustained?

I think you are forgetting traction control, RD. This is what Ron meant when he said he had to let the bike do it all. In fact, there aren't that many offs on the exit of corners now (apart from riders being a bit too ambitious with their line), most now are on the entry, through the riders trailing their front brakes. It's true that there have been a lot of tyre-related offs through warming up problems, but this latest version at Valencia seems to have been approved by the riders who tried them.

#129 rd500

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 09:11

yes, definetly traction control allows them to use the large throttle openings without consequence until something happens which then results in a big crash. josh brookes crash at brands last year on that black suzuki [sorry dont know the sponsors, relentless?] at paddock hill really confirmed that as there was no question he was on full throttle when the traction control either failed or couldnt cope.

i agree that in moto gp most of the crashes seem to happen now going into or in the mid corner, i think with the electronics packages now that the riders have to overide the bikes to be competitive and of course these systems allow this to happen, it was yamaha who said that they have the electronics packages first then build the bike around that.

also i see there is a possibility now of them allowing 2 strokes into motogp from 2013, they have mentioned it, i wonder if they are worried about this new race tech series which has its first round in april at the A1 ring in austria.

edited to say the race tech championships are trying to get brands aswell for a round.

Edited by rd500, 07 December 2011 - 09:12.


#130 Rob

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 13:04

Cant argue with that, but we are old(ish) a 20/30 something may well feel differently? :|


Nope, I agree too. :)

#131 rd500

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 13:48

from our friends at honda

"In modern times the accepted wisdom is that the limits of 2-stroke technology have been largely reached. Honda’s announcement that they will cease development on their quarter-litre bikes perhaps provides proof that there is no further ground for significant progress"


and a cracker from mr ezpaleta said in the last decade

"It is, after all, entertainment, not a technology race"


#132 chunder27

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 23:26

There is some weird stuff going on this thread!

First I get accused of writing rubbish when I am just repeating what guys like Lorenzo and Hopkins have said in interviews, mainly that the tyres are a big reason why riders are falling off. They only work when they are in a very narrow window of heat cycle, the rest of the time you can fall off if you dont heat them up quickly. A situaion far more prevalent on these modern 800cc tyres than even the older 4 stroke tyres of 2006/7. So, if you cant get your bike to work as Suzuki couldnt until this year you couldnt get the tyres to work, a la Ducati this year.

Then someone says riders couldnt set lap records on old tyres in the 80's/90's

I remember plenty of occasions that Schwantz (Jerez 93/94) did this, and I am sure there must be countless other times when a rider has calculated that he can win a race by waiting late in a race to make a move, and be abel to set lap records on his way. Maybe not common but not out of the ordinary. A Rainey would push the front early on, wait for th tyre to wear and then change a style to spin the rear, often finding laptime as a result.

What it has done this tyre thing is allow riders to explore the limits of not simply tyres as they used to, but also electronics. You hear stories of riders now applying throttle before they are even at apex, as the TC and gyros can just allow the throttle to come on when the corner opens due to GPS, lean sensors and stuff.

In the past it was all push the front, let it slide, then pick up the gas, let the weight leave the front and go to the rear and finish the corner off (if necessary) with some light spin to complete the radius and steer into the straight a little easier.

Now it is get the tyres warm enough, throw it in, hope the techs have done their work and trust what they tell you it seems.

Obviously it still takes a massive talent to not lose the front as you still can and be able to recover when the packakge lets you down, but I do feel that if TC was suddenly banned a few riders would struggle.

And we would be back to different injuries instead of the recurring scaphoid,collarbone front end stuff. You kight get a few more broken feet, ankles, legs, backs from highsides again!



#133 rd500

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 13:41

well it was colin edwards who said "the day they get rid of traction control wil be the day i retire" sums it up really, problem is most of the modern riders have no concept of throttle control as they dont need to use it and once the current motogp riders go then it will be purely guys brought up on electronics.

i think its no coincidence that only 1 world champion in motogp [2002 onward] has not ridden a high performance 2 stroke to a world championship.

just for giggles i was hearing today that MCN has ran a story about how the bsb is returning to its roots and it will be real superbikes again apparently showing a picture of the 97 bsb season as reference, 2 things though

1. does that mean all the bsb championships before have not been real championships and only now with the changes to the electronics it can be considered a real championship again like it once was.

2. or is it just another run of over hyped bull*hit these pr*cks roll out to give their series any credit by comparing it to the older days.

moto gp seems to want to compare the current crap to the older days as well as the riders which goes to show - A. they have no respect for anything before them and B. they are just as moronic in trying to make people believe they run it so good that its just like the championship in the old days that wasnt trying to live up to anything.
:evil:


#134 chunder27

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 22:50

Strange that Edwards would say that as he was one of the riders around at least a decent level before it really came into the forefront. On Superbikes aswell as GP?

And to be fair I never believe anything that is written in the comic, having seen how it works from the inside!!

Quite ehy the feel the need to overhype everythign when they have no competition and no rivals is beyond me!

I think BSB looks interesting, some guys you might not think could be right up front this year I hope.

#135 rd500

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 14:13

a good view of things and a new catchphrase for us 2 stroke guys :lol:

Over the past few years the media seems to have coined new terms to apply to two-stroke racing machines. When the two-stroke is mentioned words like vintage and nostalgic seem to pop up.

How can this be?

Well, it appears to be a slight-of-hand marketing trick. A way to discredit the two-stroke further. An easy way to make it look like if you care about two-strokes, you live in the past. It’s a simple and effective way to bulldoze the two-stroke fan and to ignore reality.

So what can I do about it?

Simple, use the word “handicap” every-time you speak about four-strokes in racing.

What exactly is a handicap and why is it used?

According to Wikipedia;

Handicapping, in sport and games, is the practice of assigning advantage through scoring compensation or other advantage given to different contestants to equalize the chances of winning. The word also applies to the various methods by which the advantage is calculated. In principle, a more experienced player is disadvantaged in order to make it possible for a less experienced player to participate in the game or sport whilst maintaining fairness. Handicapping also refers to the various methods by which spectators can predict and quantify the results of a sporting match.

double the displacement is the theme here it seems, just thinking of it now and the new model yamaha R1 has 180 bhp/ltr and my old rd has 176bhp/ltr.

Edited by rd500, 22 December 2011 - 14:16.


#136 joeninety

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 18:47

Posted Image
By joeninety at 2012-01-31

Makes you think !

#137 rd500

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 00:09

but wheres all the hype for moto 3, thought they would be slinging that out in droves by now

#138 Rennmax

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 16:08

but wheres all the hype for moto 3, thought they would be slinging that out in droves by now


They actually do

http://www.bikesport...amp;newsid=6349

#139 picblanc

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 16:29



Circuit Record Lap:

2007

Hector FAUBEL

1'39.380

145.1 Km/h


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#140 picblanc

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 16:31

Circuit Record Lap:

2007

Hector FAUBEL

1'39.380

145.1 Km/h



1. SANDRO CORTESE, RED BULL KTM AJO, 1’41.3 (52 laps)
So five years a go the 125's were 2secs faster than Moto3! :well:

Edited by picblanc, 10 February 2012 - 16:32.


#141 Rennmax

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 16:42

Not bad for the shakedown, though I would prefer to hear of any sign of life from these guys

http://continentalch....com/index.html

Edited by Rennmax, 10 February 2012 - 17:59.


#142 rd500

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 23:11

well i aint heard anything as much as ive tried, looks like a non starter now sorry to say.

#143 Rennmax

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 16:43

Sounds healthy, doesn't it :up:



and

http://www.gaskrank....orbei-18249.htm

Edited by Rennmax, 19 February 2012 - 16:51.


#144 rd500

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 00:56

definitely a case of all noise and no action, just like the other bikes of moto gp.

having said that the riders are doing the pr bit proudly saying they are more fun than the125s, i take it no one cares about lap times or progression anymore as long as they all run nose to tail?

#145 Classicpics

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 20:06

I see that 15 MotoGP bikes have been trundling around Sepang.

The fastest Stoner was over 6 seconds faster than the 15th man. (Rossi was full second of the pace.)

So in the "big" class we have a few works bikes and very few slow CRT bikes, it will be like a 60's clubmans meeting at Mallory only not as interesting.

If they want to keep the cost of racing down, why not make the rule that all bikes are bought from a main dealer and raced "as bought", but you can tune them yourself, if you can raise the cash.

Hmmmmm, It used to be the factory with the most money, could afford the best riders and build the most exotic and the fastest bikes that won championships. What is wrong with that?

So Honda and Yamaha still have pots of money to spend on racing and the others play catch up or go bust, just like it used to be.

So who has lost the plot, me or FIA, DORNA or who ever runs MotoGP.

Time to mix in some WSB bikes.... then we could have one race for three championships, MotoGP, CRT, WSBK and a full grid of 35 rides, just like it used to be.









#146 chunder27

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 23:58

Mix in some WSB bikes!

Well in all fairness Biaggi is on a Moto GP bime anyway, has been since the Aprilia was introduced and Flammini have changed the rules around completely to try and get him to win the title again this year.

I cant imagine de Puniets bike is that different, they are even not using the old gear driven cams! As Biaggi used when he won the title.

Hate to say it but GP is a lot fairer than WSB rght now, it's only about one bloke, has been for years.

I think CRT looks good, Edwards is the only yardstick you can use and he looks able to get near the slower factory bikes, which isnt bad going. So maybe Ellison can too, Puniet is on a factory Aprilia so cant count him

#147 RVF400

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 16:50

1. SANDRO CORTESE, RED BULL KTM AJO, 1’41.3 (52 laps)
So five years a go the 125's were 2secs faster than Moto3!



A 185-190 cc 4 stroke single can make as much hp as a 125 2 stroke single.
The new 250 4 stroke singles should smash the 125's lap records.
In the first 3 years of the new 250 single class there will be as much $$$
spent developing them as there has been spent in the last 10 years of
develpoing the 125 two strokes.

#148 rd500

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 04:12

[quote name='RVF400' date='Mar 3 2012, 17:50' post='5564650']
1. SANDRO CORTESE, RED BULL KTM AJO, 1’41.3 (52 laps)
So five years a go the 125's were 2secs faster than Moto3!



A 185-190 cc 4 stroke single can make as much hp as a 125 2 stroke single.
The new 250 4 stroke singles should smash the 125's lap records.
In the first 3 years of the new 250 single class there will be as much $$$
spent developing them as there has been spent in the last 10 years of
develpoing the 125 two stroke

oh dear :confused:
is ezpaleta giving you backhanders aswell?
heard the same crap spouted off about that pathetic, unjustifiable class moto 2.
absolutely irrelevant if a a boat anchor could go round as quick as a 150+ mph 125, another crazy statement for the introduction of force fed lies.

#149 Hoofhearted

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 06:04

Give the four strokes 40+ years of development.

#150 RC162

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:13

Yep I agree they will get there with Moto 3 just as it took a long time for a two stroke to win the 500 World Championship in the Seventies. Two strokes have been around for decades and only dominated from the early sixties and then only in the smaller classes. It was many years before they won in the senior class. To expect the new bikes to be light years ahead from the off is pie in the sky, however it has involved more manufacturers, more teams and riders and that can't be a bad thing as the 125 championship had become a one make series with only the chosen few getting the best bits as shown when Danny Kent got the better of the two bikes in his team.
Many records set on four strokes were not beaten for many years by the two strokes and 250 and 350 races became one make events due to the TZ. Now I loved this period of racing as it was my era but It was dominated by one manufacturer and one model of bike until the odd Kwacker came along and the Rotax variants.
One last point. If I am correct in the belief that two strokes are able to be ridden in the Senior TT why don't we see any ? I may well be wrong on this one but I thought they were still able to be ridden in this particular race. Also the only Manx Classic race that gets won by a two stroke is the 250. I know there is a cut off at 1967 but with all that knowledge we now have where are they ?