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Dear me, top flight racing?


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#151 chunder27

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:15

RD, you really need to wake up and smell the roses.

2 strokes are obselete, you simply have to run with the times. Moto2 would be a lot better if you could run more than one engine, but you just can not argue with the grids and the people involved in making bikes, it's far more encouraging than the pay your money gets your choice from Aprilia where you might get a good bike, or you might get a 97 spec ex Harada chassis, depending on how much you paid or where you are from.

They had it easy money for too long, and now they are ruining WSB by running a GP bike there too in cohorts with Flammini who changed the rules to help them.

Moto 3 has great potential, it introduces the possibility of new manufacturers and that's all that matters in the early stages. They might not stay for years, but 2 strokes are dead mate. I dont like it any more than you do, but it's a fact.

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#152 RVF400

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:50

rd
oh dear
is ezpaleta giving you backhanders aswell?
heard the same crap spouted off about that pathetic, unjustifiable class moto 2.
absolutely irrelevant if a a boat anchor could go round as quick as a 150+ mph 125, another crazy statement for the introduction of force fed lies.



Another great post! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Edited by RVF400, 04 March 2012 - 19:31.


#153 rd500

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 20:41

as ive said before guys ive got no issue with 4 stroke motorcycles (boat anchors or muck spreaders as mr sheene called them)

my direct problem with this whole thing is this...

sure, in the late 90s the 500s were beginning to reach a level with the current state of technology that the Dorna,IRTA and the manufacturer's decided they needed a change.
now they really had a chance to put motorcycle racing into the new century but instead they rolled out a buisness plan into which many factors had to change.

firstly, honda (who had been trying to get 4 stroke only racing into the 500 class as early as 93) new that the only way they could beat a 500 was on outright power, so they had to have more cylinders and more capacity, i believe this is why we never seen hondas fuel injection system again on the 500.

when itoh used the injection system in the japanese gp and germany qualifying we could all see the results, mixture was reported to be cleaner and more balanced with more midrange and of course 200+ mph top speed, all from a system which was new, some guys will remembrer this system was used on hondas motocross machines to good effect also before it was suddenly dropped when the first 4 stroke appeared in usa supercross.
in regards to the injection system cagiva also used this as early as 88 in testing but it had the same problem as the hondas with snatchy delivery. to quote raymond roche "the top speed with the injection is amazing but with better acceleration too"
if you dont follow the point here its that in order for the enforced 4 stroke racing plan to succeed they couldn't have 2 stroke engines any faster than they were, the enforced 4 stroke racing plan has been on the table for a long time and its sad to think the company who hated the 2 stroke had actually cracked the fuel injection idea.

a comparison

1993 500 gp ... top speed of an non injected machine, 187mph schwantz - suzuki
1993 500 gp ... top speed of an injected machine, 200.2 mph itoh - honda

fasted recorded race top speed for a 500 biaggi 99 paul ricard, 199 mph

point again being if they were travelling 12 mph faster 5/6 years later on carbs and they were still slower than an injected machine of the past how fast,clean and efficient would they have been in 2002 when the political business plan that was the 4 stroke revolution started.
they new fom the past like with the rcb hondas and xr69 etc that they couldn't go around corners faster or be as good as the much lighter 2 stroke engine in manoeuvring (assen 2002) so the only way to go was with power.

as we all know a 4 stroke cannot provide power without 2 things, 1 capacity and 2 cylinders.
so honda guided them down the false path that a 4 stroke engine requires twice as much cc to perform the same as the simpler, cheaper 2 stroke.
hence for the new class moto gp we had 4 strokes of up to 6 cylinders and 990cc to make it "FAIR" of course.
the problem is that with the old double the displacement theory that honda thought up in the seventies, the big secret is it actually has no basis, there is not one shred of documentation i have come across that supports this claim, like the whole moto gp enforced 4 stroke plan - its a fad.

around 2000 and 2001 there were stories coming out of america and germany of dealers having to spend a lot of money to revamp in readiness for the 4 stroke takeover, around this time the press releases were coming out about how the 2 stroke was finished and long live the 4 stroke era and all the merry men jumped on board as people like michael neeves ran front page stories on mcn telling everyone how a stock gsxr 1000 was faster than a yzr etc etc.

so basically it was a hate campaign against 2 strokes and it was and still is working for them, if you like 2 strokes you live in the past and they are dead to everyone- just one thing though, in the 125,250 and 500 classes guess what - you could ehter a 4 stroke, now you have to run a four stroke of their definition and you only get in on their say so.

prices have gone through the roof another reason why the 250 class was dominated by aprilia, all the other factories were ploughing so much money into the moto gp they had a choice, wsb (the most overrated series ever) or 250 so of course they went to wsb. no surprise then that yamahas and hondas last full works 250 were in 2001.
aprilia had a captive market and the actual truth was that they had nearly went bankrupt running that cube thing.

so in my opinion the 2 stroke was not and never will be dead, it was an unfortunate victim which stood in the way of political and business plans and unfortunately the lies they told to ensure people would give up on them have worked.

now we have CRT bikes, a half breed of moto gp and wsb.

the good thing about it for me is all the guys who jumped onto the band wagon of the 4 stroke revolution will never be seen at a 2 stroke bike race but ironically most of tyhese same guys will be the ones jumping for joy when the 2 stroke returns, you want irony - neeves was last seen running around silverstone on an ex roberts 500 and as KR said himself "it would work ok for them if all the footage of gp 2 strokes was destroyed so people would nt know what real racing bikes were"

have look, ask yourself if it makes sense

http://www.visordown...iled/17797.html

#154 chunder27

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 23:18

To be honest the injected NSR was a white elephant. Beattie and Doohan tried it and hated it, so it was left to Itoh to run it, and predictably he only went well at Suzuka and Hockenheim, Mick was 190+ on an NSR there in 92 with big ban, and lets face it Honda were always the quickest in a straight line until the very end when Yamaha worked out how to get Max behind a fairing so you couldnt see him on the straights!

I adore 2 strokes too, much prfer them to 4 strokes, would rather still have them, but sadily the final few years of them in 125/250 were a farce. Honda left mopst teams to it until they realised Aoyama was Japanese and it might be nice to win! Yamaha built the best 250's anyway but couldnt be bothered after Jacqes win and Suzuki were superb in the 500 class with Schwantz and Roberts, no one else aprt from Beattie perhaps, perhaps the best bike overall but they never managed to get it sliding nicely, only Kevin on Dunnies did that.

Manufacturers dont want 2 strokes, for whatever reason. Hodna tried SO hard to make them feasible in the modern world, but it just wasnt worth it and they gave up on injection, just as they gave up on the 4 stroke 500 and the RC45 that they dropped to batter Ducati with their own twin.

I like 4 strokes, but only the early era of 2002-4. Since TC and electronics came in so much the spectacle and real rider ability has been masked

#155 rd500

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 08:38

a bit harsh to say hondas HCCI injection system was a white elephant, itoh was hondas r&d rider that year and with this system he had a pole position, podium, a few fourths and never finished out of the top ten. also honda won their class in the paris - dakar with it aswell.

reports from that time have the HCCI injection system running around 10 - 15% lower emissions with a 2 stroke engine but what they found was with the road racing machine the constant changes in throttle were causing hesitations.

the apparent problem was the theory worked and injection system worked but electronics hadnt caught up to accurately control throttle delivery, 1 report suggests they had up to 6 black boxes trying to get the information to the system but with todays technology this could be done with 1.

mick had no problems testing the system according to himself but did not want to race it as he had it for the opening gp in australia but retired after (according to FIM reports) the bike went onto 3 cylinders, when he walked past a few honda engineers he remarked "are we here to test or here to race"

ive never seen a document or heard beattie say if he even used the system so i dont know what his story was with it, and yes chunder mick was clocked over 190 mph in 91 and 92 but these were the figures from 93 but i see what you mean.

the fuel injection systems were the next step for 2 strokes not only for their performance enhancing qualities but from an emissions point of view also, ironic that the company who hate the 2 stroke engine pioneered a system that people are using now like suters 500 and ossas new off road bikes.

but why keep going with a project costing a lot when you know a few years later it will be no longer in use. remember honda denied this system was ever used at fist and told everyone they used carbs at hockenheim.

only recently yamaha (who still make 2 stroke motox bikes) completely gave up on the 4 stroke and went back to 2 strokes for one of their outdoor departments.

i think a lot of people get into a 2 stroke v 4 stroke argument but its really irrelevant, its just sad how when they changed the classes in grand prix the reasons they gave to justify the change were propogandic lies about 2 stroke engines.

rvf400 the reason i say its irrelevant why if moto 3 is quicker than a 125 is because they are 2 completely diffrent bikes. :wave:

#156 chunder27

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 20:18

I agree that 2 stroke largely has been banned for little reasons, otehr than some markets just thinking its not as clean.

Could a reason be that it is much easier to make a diesel emission friendly with awful exhausts? A stroker relies far more on the exhaust to makes its power and would maybe be strangled too much by awful pipes?

Bimota gave up with their injection system too remember. Adn Honda obviously had an idea what was coming, but really did they honestly know in 1993 when they gave up using it that it would be banned by 2002? I dont think even HRC can plan that far ahead.

I reckon as you say they knoew that current ECU;s and stuff would not be able to run properly, and despite spending million on the system they know they couldnt market it in road forma or make ot cheap to sell in race form via the RS series of bikes 125/250.

I think Mick thought it was just not enough of a gain, same as water injection and electronic shock control, all things Criville tried for years and got little out of.

Yamaha too tried EFI in testing as did Cagiva (whose system was very good) and Aprilia I think. Not sure about Suzuki

#157 RVF400

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 13:12

rd500
from our friends at honda

"In modern times the accepted wisdom is that the limits of 2-stroke technology have been largely reached.
Honda’s announcement that they will cease development on their quarter-litre bikes perhaps provides
proof that there is no further ground for significant progress"




One could also say the same about a 4 stroke.

#158 chunder27

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 16:23

The main ussue is that Honda really realised that they needed to think outside the box.

With the 500, they tried single crank, gave them power but took Lawson and then Mick to work out how to get it working, after that they just messed with EFI and electronic suspension, then Mick realised the screamer would work, but only to piss off Criville! They also nearly made a twin work, but forgot that acceleration is the KEY to race winning pace, not corner speed, isnt it Luca/Max??

The 250 and 125 were more interesting. The 250 was initially the quickest, in the late 80'2 early 90's. Then Aprilia caught up with Biaggi and dominated. IN this time Yamaha always had the best handling with Garriga, Harada, but never enough power, with the YZR mayeb so, but Harada's win on the TZ remains one of the best championships ever in my view.

Honda then capitualted and with Kato and Loris on board made a disc valve bike with side rads, it worked, but was never as nice so the bike Pedrosa/Dovi and Aoyama used was bsically a top marque RS!

125's Honda single handedly revolutionised the sport with the single cylinder 125, again they managed to get a rule changed to ban twins, but it worked, the bike allowed privateers to win. Raudies, Gianola et all all quickest on B kit bikes. And that was about it, they left it alone pretty much for the next 10 years, before realising it was the first class to be dropped from their factory effort, followed by motocross.

So, on reflection I think Honda did a lot with 2 strokes. Lots of different version of their bikes, but they realised they couldnt sell them anymore in the West, and Honda always like to do things different, hence a V5 990, and a V4 in Superbikes with EFI, later building a twin becaise despite what the Italians told the press, that was the oNLY way you win the title back then wasnt it Suzuki/Aprilia/Ducati/Honda!



#159 tonyed

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 17:06

Just watched the new revolutionary ‘MOTOBEEFART’ with the two (supplemented by a third) idiots creaming their pants over the greatest piece of race engineering ever.

Yes I am convinced, these ‘little jewels’ with their three pieces of different carbon fibre making up this flexible fairing, chassis by FTR of England (weren’t they binned by all the moto2 teams?) the 14 grand, chain driven ohc 250 engines with two million individual moving prats, sorry parts, at 12 thousand Euros each (engines only), yes a great piece of engineering.

Political engineering by Honda to ensure that everyone else sings to their tune.

Makes Murdoch look honest. :rotfl:

Two riders spread out in the front of the field, a batch seconds or more down the road, looks like the only thing it’s achieved is to make being a back marker more expensive. :down:

By the way, Japan has decided that after its’ little problem with ‘Nooclear’ the way forward, as it has no coal, oil or gas, is electric. Electric razors, electric bikes, electric cars, electric electricity. So what (?) is going to produce al this ‘lectricity?

WAVE power. A good Tsunami twice a day should foot the bill nicely. :wave:

Has the world gone mad or is it just me? :confused:

Hope this finds you as it leaves me.

‘Hanging upside down in tropical kit’

Toodly Pip. :stoned:



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#160 fil2.8

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 18:06

Just watched the new revolutionary ‘MOTOBEEFART’ with the two (supplemented by a third) idiots creaming their pants over the greatest piece of race engineering ever.

Yes I am convinced, these ‘little jewels’ with their three pieces of different carbon fibre making up this flexible fairing, chassis by FTR of England (weren’t they binned by all the moto2 teams?) the 14 grand, chain driven ohc 250 engines with two million individual moving prats, sorry parts, at 12 thousand Euros each (engines only), yes a great piece of engineering.

Political engineering by Honda to ensure that everyone else sings to their tune.

Makes Murdoch look honest. :rotfl:

Two riders spread out in the front of the field, a batch seconds or more down the road, looks like the only thing it’s achieved is to make being a back marker more expensive. :down:

By the way, Japan has decided that after its’ little problem with ‘Nooclear’ the way forward, as it has no coal, oil or gas, is electric. Electric razors, electric bikes, electric cars, electric electricity. So what (?) is going to produce al this ‘lectricity?

WAVE power. A good Tsunami twice a day should foot the bill nicely. :wave:

Has the world gone mad or is it just me? :confused:

Hope this finds you as it leaves me.

‘Hanging upside down in tropical kit’

Toodly Pip. :stoned:




Quite , Tony :lol: :clap: :rotfl: :clap: :up:

#161 fastfitter

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 19:15

I went and fired my chainsaw up afterwards so I could hear/smell something decent.

#162 RC162

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:19

I see knitted swimming trunks haven't gone out of fashion. :drunk:

#163 fil2.8

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:23

I went and fired my chainsaw up afterwards so I could hear/smell something decent.



:lol: :rotfl: :lol: , just about sums it up , perhaps the trick is to have an audio tape of tz's/rg's , while watching the Motogp , or whatever they call it :wave:

#164 rd500

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:02

ive never watched a wsb race as i find the class overhyped and overrated

ive never watched a moto gp race since donington 2002 but did watch the 250 and 125 until they were forced out.

i dont like all the overhyped crap that goes with modern day 4 stroke enforced racing

so unless its a classic meeting or show thats me finished. (CCRT depending)

dont want to hear about it or read about it anymore, ill stick to my obsolete, not with the times 2 stroke bikes from a period when i had fun and wait till the wheel turns full circle.

cheers.

#165 twotempi

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 22:04

Hope this finds you as it leaves me.

‘Hanging upside down in tropical kit’

Toodly Pip.



Could be worse - you could be hanging upside down in traditional Scottish kit !!

The Moto3 bikes are at least a lot more interesting than the Moto2 Formula Honda ones but technical jewels they are not.

At an very early stage it was mooted that Moto3 could be either 125 twostrokes or 250 fourstrokes. What happened to that proposal ?? Anyone know ??

And before anyone accuses me of being a fourstroke advocate please read my Login Name.

#166 chunder27

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 22:21

Err, I fear this isnt simply nostalgia! Its downright blinkered!

But then again its in the nostalgia section, so maybe best to keep quiet.

Perhaps best if you stick to classics guys, this new fangled modern technology! (where did Honda start I wonder)

#167 fastfitter

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:00

I'm all for progress, but twice the engine capacity and at least four times the number of parts to go nearly as fast?  ;)

Don't get me wrong though, the racing was good. Give a bunch of mad teenagers identical machines and it's bound to be close, just check out your nearest set of traffic lights.

#168 Sakkie

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:13

The whole concept of GP racing has changed so radically from the old days. To my mind, learning to race a M/C should be undertaken at club and national level, not at the grand prix´s themselves. While I have no problem with the formulas adopted, I hate seeing any class in what is supposed to be the highest level, acting as a nursery for young up and coming talent. To my mind, someone being crowned a world champion, should be the person, irrespective of age or any other limitation, who can ride a given bike better than anyone else. I´ve always thought the requirements needed to extract the best out of a small capacity machine are very different to those required to get the best out of a big bike, so they should be seen individually.
The actual formula decided on is largely immaterial as far as I´m concerned, and anything that makes the racing more affordable will get a thumbs up from me. The only problem I have with the new Moto 3 class is the sound. Damn, it´s is so sanitized. Can you imagine how much better it would be with open megaphones? :love: I love the moto 2 class as it will always serve up great racing, but I feel the moto GP class is simply too fast, technical and expensive to provide close racing with lots of position changes.
And yes, I too miss the 2 strokes, but they will be back one day. Of that I´m certain.

#169 chunder27

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 18:04

I miss the strokers too, but I am capabale of moving on.

And believe me the 3 bikes are loud, most of them are over 115db apparently, far louder than motocross bikes are allowed to be.

I see what you mean about nursery championships, but I do get rather excited seeing a lad like Pedrosa, Rossi or Capirossi develop from a teenager into a wily fox!

And that for me is why it's a good thing having kids racing, get them out there, give them a chance, its the way modern sport is I am afraid

#170 Paul Collins

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 21:20

Was it just me or did the sounds of those moto3 things remind anyone else of when we used to thrash around the fields as kids on beaten up old Honda 50's with no exhausts? :)

#171 SADBATCCM

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 22:28

Was it just me or did the sounds of those moto3 things remind anyone else of when we used to thrash around the fields as kids on beaten up old Honda 50's with no exhausts? :)


30... 16 TO 18 year olds doing there CBT test at the same time …. On C5O Honda’s …… :blush:

#172 Russell Burrows

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 22:53

Since we've lived in highly litigious times for decades now, was this a factor in the demise of the racing two stroke?

#173 SADBATCCM

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 23:47

Since we've lived in highly litigious times for decades now, was this a factor in the demise of the racing two stroke?


GREEN!! ……………………The end of the world is nigh!! And all that!!
The fact that MOTOGP sends 1500 people to each GP worldwide... and the fact that each team will race only max 23 laps …. This seams as we are handicapping the style over pure good racing :eek:


The fact that each rider will only use 21ltrs of fuel when he or she gets there is a joke per race.. :mad: … but the fact that the cost in fuel to get there in one race will be more then what they use all year track side all year is the biggest joke of all

#174 exclubracer

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:22

Was it just me or did the sounds of those moto3 things remind anyone else of when we used to thrash around the fields as kids on beaten up old Honda 50's with no exhausts? :)

Known as 'chicken chasers' :D

#175 fastfitter

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:31

The fact that each rider will only use 21ltrs of fuel when he or she gets there is a joke per race.. :mad: … but the fact that the cost in fuel to get there in one race will be more then what they use all year track side all year is the biggest joke of all



Good point :up:

Never thought of that as a counter to the environmentalists (with the emphasis on mental)

#176 Russell Burrows

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:56

Since we've lived in highly litigious times for decades now, was this a factor in the demise of the racing two stroke?

GREEN!! ……………………The end of the world is nigh!! And all that!!
The fact that MOTOGP sends 1500 people to each GP worldwide... and the fact that each team will race only max 23 laps …. This seams as we are handicapping the style over pure good racing :eek:


The fact that each rider will only use 21ltrs of fuel when he or she gets there is a joke per race.. :mad: … but the fact that the cost in fuel to get there in one race will be more then what they use all year track side all year is the biggest joke of all

Good point :up:

Never thought of that as a counter to the environmentalists (with the emphasis on mental)


I was thinking more in terms of personal injury claims and the like?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 11 April 2012 - 06:57.


#177 rd500

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:44

[quote name='chunder27' date='Apr 10 2012, 19:04' post='5649752']
I miss the strokers too, but I am capabale of moving on.


i think were going back to this 2 stroke/4 stroke thing again and that is not the issue in my eyes.

i wouldnt like to count the number of years guys on this forum have competing and going to motorcycle races.

the problem is, as ive expressed many times before is its not the changes but the way they have taken place - they have had to make unjustifiable reasons to justify getting rid of pure racing motorcycles and this is what hits the hardest.

it was all too cloak and dagger and the experienced enthusiast sees through this now and were not interested in their "show" or funding any part of it.

in 1999 the WWEA [worldwide enviromental ageny] claimed that just one formula one event causes more pollution than all the road traffic in a small country over a year.

but yes, we still have motorcycle racing if you choose to watch it but it is completely lacking the passion, stability and most importantly - the essence of the sport.

this has been lost to television which is great for the fans who get to see the sport but it takes its toll as we have seen in so many other sports, they have to modify it to give the camera something to look at, once this has been acheived we are left with what we have, which is nothing more than restricted, limited and stagnent racing which is designed for television.

for some of the purists this means that the excitment and the passion of the race, the machine,the rider, has all been lost and some people like myself just cant comprehend that.





#178 larryd

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 14:42

"once this has been acheived we are left with what we have, which is nothing more than restricted, limited and stagnent racing which is designed for television.

for some of the purists this means that the excitment and the passion of the race, the machine,the rider, has all been lost and some people like myself just cant comprehend that".


As a past rider, UK, IOM and further afield, I've been saying for some years now that it ain't sport any more, it's SHOW BUSINESS.

Comprenez-vous maintenant??


#179 Hoofhearted

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:06

Ah yes, "the essence of the sport". True its been reduced to a television show. I think we should bring back the Manx Norton, G50, MVs and the odd Hanah Paton. Oh sorry. They're four strokes aren't they.

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#180 Russell Burrows

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:43

At Robert Dunlop's inquest, the corner suggested sensors might be fitted to racing two stroke engines to warn of piston seizures; I can't help wondering if he knew how many others had gone the way of Robert, he might have been a little more robust with his criticism.

So, my original question on the two stroke central thread as to whether the fear of litigation, class actions or otherwise, played any part in the demise of your beloved racing strokers, still stands?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 12 April 2012 - 10:45.


#181 Rennmax

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:32

At Robert Dunlop's inquest, the corner suggested sensors might be fitted to racing two stroke engines to warn of piston seizures; I can't help wondering if he knew how many others had gone the way of Robert, he might have been a little more robust with his criticism.

So, my original question on the two stroke central thread as to whether the fear of litigation, class actions or otherwise, played any part in the demise of your beloved racing strokers, still stands?


To be honest Russ, the seizure was the trigger of the disaster, grabbing the thumb operated front brake instead of the clutch lever was the reason which actually caused the tragedy


http://www.belfastte...t-14203228.html

Edited by Rennmax, 12 April 2012 - 11:57.


#182 Russell Burrows

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:50

To be honest Russ, the seizure was the trigger of the disaster, grabing the thumb operated front brake instead of the clutch lever was the reason which actually caused the tragedy


http://www.belfastte...t-14203228.html

Causation Renn..... but for the bike seizing he wouldn't have grabbed the modified brake control. The guy who was following him says the rear end stepped out before he was shot over the handlebars, so he was going down on an Irish country road at 160 mph anyway.

#183 Rennmax

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:17

Causation Renn..... but for the bike seizing he wouldn't have grabbed the modified brake control. The guy who was following him says the rear end stepped out before he was shot over the handlebars, so he was going down on an Irish country road at 160 mph anyway.


As for most calamities, there seems to be always the synergy of different reasons which lead finally to the disastrous result. Though I can get along quite happily without strokers (will I be stoned to death now?) I can't recall piston seizures to be a major problem in the last decades at GPs

Edited by Rennmax, 12 April 2012 - 12:26.


#184 rd500

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:31

So, my original question on the two stroke central thread as to whether the fear of litigation, class actions or otherwise, played any part in the demise of your beloved racing strokers, still stands?



i would not doubt it russell in these modern times of lawsuits and claims that could be a possibility, regarding sensors, should we not have them on the 4 stroke machines to indicate when they are going to spew litre after litre of oil out of their engines when the conrods etc decide to make a break for freedom?

#185 Russell Burrows

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:32

As for most calamities, there seems to be always the synergy of different reasons which lead finally to the disastrous result. Though I can get along quite happily without strokers (will I be stoned to death now?) I can't recall piston seizures to be a major problem in the last decades at GPs

How many decades Renn? Haven't we seen quite a lot less of them in recent years? And ....If you hit the deck at a Darley Mooor club meeting, it hurts just as much as anywhere else. ;)

#186 Russell Burrows

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:41

i would not doubt it russell in these modern times of lawsuits and claims that could be a possibility, regarding sensors, should we not have them on the 4 stroke machines to indicate when they are going to spew litre after litre of oil out of their engines when the conrods etc decide to make a break for freedom?

You draw up a list off the top of your head of riders known to have been killed, maimed or otherwise ****ed as a direct result of four stroke engine blow ups, and I'll do the same for those so affected by two stroke engine seizures ?

#187 rd500

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:48

well luckily enough they have catch tanks that became compulsory after the ever increasing amount of 4 stroke engine failures, in fact i would stick my neck out and say 4 stroke machinery has become less reliable than ever.
cant think of anybody maimed or killed off hand [monza 73?] but they have put an premature end to many a meeting.

Edited by rd500, 12 April 2012 - 12:53.


#188 Russell Burrows

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 15:10

well luckily enough they have catch tanks that became compulsory after the ever increasing amount of 4 stroke engine failures, in fact i would stick my neck out and say 4 stroke machinery has become less reliable than ever.
cant think of anybody maimed or killed off hand [monza 73?] but they have put an premature end to many a meeting.


So that's none from you then. Whereas some of the biggest names in the sport have been stroker victims and, of course,umpteen lesser knowns. I'm more than a bit surprised that you don't know this.


#189 Rennmax

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 15:47

So that's none from you then. Whereas some of the biggest names in the sport have been stroker victims and, of course,umpteen lesser knowns. I'm more than a bit surprised that you don't know this.


Let me play the role of devil's advocate Russ, there have been some.....D Jefferies, John Goodall, Yasutomo Nagai in Assen come to my mind. Hope we don't start a macabre competition now.

#190 picblanc

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 16:19

Let me play the role of devil's advocate Russ, there have been some.....D Jefferies, John Goodall, Yasutomo Nagai in Assen come to my mind. Hope we don't start a macabre competition now.

Nagai crashed & his bike flicked in the air and landed on him, DJ did crash on someone else's oil.
The tracks are "safer" now than in days gone by, helmets & leathers too are much better, many many riders both 4 & 2 stroke would still be here if they had been racing at todays "modern" circuits.
Sad that so many have gone regardless of which type of machine we prefer.

#191 picblanc

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 16:22

Monza 1973 was caused by a seized Harley Davidson.

#192 Russell Burrows

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 18:02

Let me play the role of devil's advocate Russ, there have been some.....D Jefferies, John Goodall, Yasutomo Nagai in Assen come to my mind. Hope we don't start a macabre competition now.

Nagai crashed & his bike flicked in the air and landed on him, DJ did crash on someone else's oil.
The tracks are "safer" now than in days gone by, helmets & leathers too are much better, many many riders both 4 & 2 stroke would still be here if they had been racing at todays "modern" circuits.
Sad that so many have gone regardless of which type of machine we prefer.


By dint of its design one engine type has a propensity for causing death and destruction, and one doesn't. It simple really. :D


#193 larryd

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 20:15

By dint of its design one engine type has a propensity for causing death and destruction, and one doesn't. It simple really. :D


I rather think that that's going a bit too far, Russ.

"Simple" it is definitely not.

Each and every twostroke racer that I ever knew rode with one finger (at least) on the clutch lever - indeed, it became such a habit with me that when I started again on the BM, after a break of 13 years, I still followed the ingrained habit.

The coroner meant well, but the fact is that twostrokes in the last 20+ years don't lock up as instantaneously as, for instance, Smiling Jack's "Whispering Death" square 4 Suzuki 250.

You will always get a warning.

Robert D went down because, as already stated, his injury and his consequent modification of the controls left him insufficient time to free the clutch.

In "normal" seizures, even if the back does step out as remarked, 9 times out of 10 lifting the clutch in time will save it.

Quite honestly, for a while now I haven't liked the way this thread was going - I wasn't going to join in, Russ, but you've provoked me!!

Rant over . . . . . . . .


#194 chunder27

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 22:11

NSR500's had detonation sensors on them as a matter of course for years as I recall

#195 MilesDavis

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 22:24

I went and fired my chainsaw up afterwards so I could hear/smell something decent.


yeah. thats why I still ride my aprilia rs125. decent two stroke bike, lot of blue smoke, lot of fun, and a lot of power for 125cc machine

but you know what!? -my colleagues, they ridicule me. all because of that motogp cr**p. they think bike should sound like a saloon car.

dark forces are changing the world my friend. nothing will ever be the same

Edited by MilesDavis, 12 April 2012 - 22:25.


#196 Russell Burrows

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 22:57

I rather think that that's going a bit too far, Russ.

"Simple" it is definitely not.

Each and every twostroke racer that I ever knew rode with one finger (at least) on the clutch lever - indeed, it became such a habit with me that when I started again on the BM, after a break of 13 years, I still followed the ingrained habit.

The coroner meant well, but the fact is that twostrokes in the last 20+ years don't lock up as instantaneously as, for instance, Smiling Jack's "Whispering Death" square 4 Suzuki 250.

You will always get a warning.

Robert D went down because, as already stated, his injury and his consequent modification of the controls left him insufficient time to free the clutch.

In "normal" seizures, even if the back does step out as remarked, 9 times out of 10 lifting the clutch in time will save it.

Quite honestly, for a while now I haven't liked the way this thread was going - I wasn't going to join in, Russ, but you've provoked me!!

Rant over . . . . . . . .

The occasional rant is probably good for us, Larry.

I'll concede that I'm thinking historically, but then on a nostalgia forum that seems not unreasonable. I'll admit too that my views are coloured by my own experiences back in the day, as well as the memory of so many hotshots who, despite the best efforts of their hotshot mechanics, were spat off strokers with such dire consequences. But, a quick googling session just now showed accounts of a number of guys from the recent past being pitched off 125/250's at GP's, any of whom could have fallen heavily. It seems reasonable to conclude that if it was happening recently with GP bikes, which were fettled by people who knew what they're doing, those still pedalling them at lesser events might still have something to worry about? I’m not, of course, contesting your experiences of being quick with that clutch lever, nor do I disbelieve that development has meant piston seizures can happen less often, I am though reminding us that the design, relative to the alternative, does have inherent flaws that remain potentially lethal, something the friends and relatives of those no longer with us are only too aware. Most British inventions have been a boon to the world, this one sucks.


#197 Paul Collins

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 00:13

it was always a case of striking a balance with the two strokes between jetting them lean enough for maximum power and a crisp motor, and going too far and causing a seizure, without the benefits of modern electronics the two strokes were at the mercy of any changes in temperature, humidity and atmospheric pressure.

From what I am seeing now I think the 4 strokes are in a similar situation, with the balance between creating maximum power and creating a grenade, but they have the added benefit of complex electronics with sensors monitoring and adjusting many parameters such as fuelling, without this I think we would be seeing just as many motogp bikes sh*tting themselves as we saw 2 strokes seizing were it not for the obvious benefits of electronically controlled fuel injection etc.

From my own time on two strokes which was the best part of 11 seasons I was lucky and only had two seizures, one was flat out in top down the back straight at Snetterton but the motor almost wrote to me to tell me what was going to happen, the other very nearly got me though, my head cracked the screen and I went off the circuit but I just managed to catch it, that one was caused by something universal to all engines, a broken conrod locking the motor up with no warning at all.

I think a modern two stroke laden with all the current motogp electronics would be no more likely to nip up than a 4 stroke.



#198 exclubracer

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:56

And ....If you hit the deck at a Darley Mooor club meeting, it hurts just as much as anywhere else.;)

Yes, I can vouch for that and it wasn't caused by a seizure either!!

#199 Russell Burrows

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:09

it was always a case of striking a balance with the two strokes between jetting them lean enough for maximum power and a crisp motor, and going too far and causing a seizure, without the benefits of modern electronics the two strokes were at the mercy of any changes in temperature, humidity and atmospheric pressure.

From what I am seeing now I think the 4 strokes are in a similar situation, with the balance between creating maximum power and creating a grenade, but they have the added benefit of complex electronics with sensors monitoring and adjusting many parameters such as fuelling, without this I think we would be seeing just as many motogp bikes sh*tting themselves as we saw 2 strokes seizing were it not for the obvious benefits of electronically controlled fuel injection etc.

From my own time on two strokes which was the best part of 11 seasons I was lucky and only had two seizures, one was flat out in top down the back straight at Snetterton but the motor almost wrote to me to tell me what was going to happen, the other very nearly got me though, my head cracked the screen and I went off the circuit but I just managed to catch it, that one was caused by something universal to all engines, a broken conrod locking the motor up with no warning at all.

I think a modern two stroke laden with all the current motogp electronics would be no more likely to nip up than a 4 stroke.


......and yet there are plenty of accounts online from recent years of blokes being chucked up the road by you know what. All of them were on strokers. One guy, Danny Webb, reports his 125 seizing in five consecutive GP's during 2011. I looked reasonably hard for similar stories from blokes on fourstroke powered bikes, but found none. They must be out there somewhere?

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#200 RC162

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 18:03


When anyone talks of engine seizures on bikes it is almost without exception that the engine is a two stroke. I have had a few and have had the good fortune to catch most of them apart from the one I had going down Craner curves in 89' which gave me nothing in the way of a warning. I was on my head before I even knew it and the bike had been fine all year and apart from a check over, there were no new parts in the engine. Never found out what did it and it was used with the same set up, apart from a new piston kit, for two years after this with a different rider with no issues. Never had a four stroke nip on me and can't think of anyone I know either road or race who has too. There will be those who say about the oil dropped by four strokes but they do have a flag to warn you of this, if they see it, but I haven't seen a flag telling you your bike is about to lock up and spit you off.